and
the
I also with my country tis Trevor Chiam
from the freedom of the press foundation founder the freedom of the press
foundation
he's going to be here he will Sulekha some questions from Twitter that
that you guys have submitted and I guess is it a good time to remind
people and the press is not a press conference all the questions
we're going to ask every later come from our attendees and hopefully they'll be
questions that you're interested in as well
on please just follow our our guidelines and everything will be cool
arm and that's on oh yes almost forgot
we have a third panelist will be joining us
from Russia wanna shower
wanna my real heroes and I think many people in this room many people in our
community
many people in america Edward snowden
welcome the
the
now
the
yeah
the
there had helping compatible guys some had a little bit of trouble here in the
stage but I think I can you dance microphone
I wanna start out by saying to dan ellsberg
thank you for everything you've done for all your service both
in the government and outside government everything you did for us
as a nation as a society you have given
us you have given so many so much and told us the truth
about what our government is doing at a time when the truth is very hard to get
and I have to say I i actually out
I watched a documentary about your life as I was grappling with these issues
myself
and deter had a deep impact
really shaped my paintings to thank you for everything
head to I see you've changed since I last saw you
hike I have to tell you
you don't have to do that for this audience the well luckily I've
I've got plenty black t-shirts but I do not have to keep Alexander granddad G
I'll say this for Def Con
so
up I'm gonna try to stay largely on the way and that these guys cock but I think
there's a few
topics said would like to cover and
to start with I was hoping dan could describe
on when it felt like the first time you heard about Edward snowden
on his feelings on hearing his name
and seeing what he had given the world's and
if his feelings have changed since then and how he's
he's grown to feel about everson
I can tell you exactly what I shall
hope actually which had not been
great supply for me recently when I saw this
name in this conference I had mixed feelings about it
I'll my my feelings of hope
go up and down or I haven't been too high and no question
I'll I felt though when cell
when Chelsea Manning was revealed I use to
night you says Conway how how often do you need a pentagon papers which is a
massive
disclosure that is unequivocal documents
that really shows in one document doesn't do it as as it knows
and mando they can say well we change that
the next day that was just some particular on a little Department
some low-level person originators from so what you really need is a massive
stuff as in the pentagon papers
the chose know this is what they said the next day and the day after that near
was the official policy
and so forth and I waited forty years
to hear that and so I was pretty much losing hope that there would be anybody
inside
who was willing to risk
his freedom his life for her life
freedom to put out what needed to be put out because I if you put on a lot of
stuff
and I want to get into this with you ed its technically
you have to be something a specialist to put on a lot of stuff com
not be identified shell I was feeling not hopeful it'll come in just three
years after Manning
come snow themselves no question I thought it is possible
and a in fact I N you once told me
that I you hoped among other things to show
that one could do this and be successful
and i i'd be interested to hear actually from you
watcher measure I there's no question in my mind you have been successful
but what you had in mind when you wanted to show that people could do this
because after all you are on the country et cetera well
so then there's a lot of things to address that I mean that that's a big
topic but you said something I want to
response you first which was you kinda touched on technology you talked about
how people recently
RR specialists there you specialist skills
together information is tremendously important to the public but we've been
denied access
to and they're able to publish that getting around the world
arm before anyone's able to stop before their original story
before they're able to basically shot public
out are the room government you know this one died or sauce from our
democracy and the keep me there
is that up technology
empowers this is something we seen again and again people forget yes
because they think about only modern times the only weathered the recent
samples I think about meeting meaning now
other people who all in the same sort for but they forget the technology
actually
in a few people forget about the snack that
you were you know you know in a garage with Xerox
she you know a copy machine might not seem like a killer app to a lot of
people
with that enable you get this back to the pool
and the same xerox machine negating that gave us
same is done in the the former associate why and
what that tells me and what i think is important for our society
and I don't just mean I mean around the world is to recognize
the technology empowers individuals
it empowers Boysen how's democracy in we didn't earn $1 million into a movie
or a woman into world more in as fundamentally change the way that we
relate to our government
and more importantly the way our government relates to
us you know they say when people feared
when the government fears people we mobs
we have new we have freedom and I think that's very true
and we see that more MORE when the government has been
left Sweden doc even when we have whistleblowers
who come up and see the great interest to bring things public
are people like will be times through
arm at Loomis I'll
who end up giving you know these guys get pole out of the shower naked at
gunpoint
from the things their lives who is
their discredited you know he said disgruntled
there's these these broad campaigns brought against them it
they didn't hands heart evidence
they did everything right thing witnesses in this industry bear
mishap again something very important happened
are a lot of people haven't seen washing hostesses anymore
are I former State Department official who
has basically said I'm he's bound by classification he had to get the
articles ruled by government to redact any classified information
were deposited with the washington post lani basically said
executive order 12 triple which is one of the sons
Ortiz which allows the United States intercept basically
communications the current overseas is being used
to collect incredible a mouse a communications not just on people around
the world not just listens everywhere
it specifically on Americans which is precisely with United States government
said
and this is this is the kind of thing that's dates
illustrated because what he revealed was explosive
should be on the front page of every newspaper but instead it's an opinion
article
on one newspaper because there's not clear irrefutable
evidence that brings the president to the whole brings
the Congress to you know the press and says
we have to have a national conversation where the public is given back
it see stable government and we as a society
are given the opportunity site where the lines should be drawn
not a few officials are sitting behind closed doors and I think that
is a new power
the technology has given us over the last 100 years
that is increasing in frequency straight man to
and if we paint with
with and responsibility to use appropriately to
police ourselves the way our technology grows and not sleep
law into new protocols into the usages into new applications for these things
we really think about the implications output in you know our cities in our
your sneakers and washing machines and you buy at the grocery store
we will have not dystopian future but we'll
am a democracy in which citizens
around the world in every country are in power regardless the policies and their
government and we at the very minimum
will know the truth about world in the truth our government and it will not be
able to be hidden from us and more
on so add you mentioned
to SA whistleblowers who came before you Thomas trackers in the front row here
and a bill Binnie who spoke at the lil last hope two years ago
on and of course on here since daniel ellsberg most
famous whistleblower in US history were you aware of their stories
I am prior on to what you did on how familiar
were you with the pentagon papers and dan ellsberg
and did you learn any lessons from them
and are there lessons future whistleblowers can can learn from you
I absolutely i mean i
I follow this closely I think every in the towns can you did because we're
people forget
is that you know we in public we see the stories they come on the news you know I
the Justice Department president all talking heads they say these guys and
bad guys this
wrist country this you know spies have been charging the Espionage Act a
a they did that when you wouldn't happen when you look bad
the government to used in their case particularly as Thomas true
which eventually collapse I and the drop Jack John
and basically agreed to call it a day are
you gotta remember that inside the intelligence community trumpet
these things they're holding these guys up at as examples to say look
if you say what's going on stuff online
even years even if you doing it for the right reasons even if you do it the
right call
there will be Rep russians know they they talk about internal channels mama
these guys used intern chance and they
people like thomas strentz ended up getting and I and this is something that
I
paid very close attention I'm a great deal on and I think
it reminds us that you know that the founding fathers they didn't
height a revolution have a right to
sort by internal process the Supreme Court this you know some internal secret
policy
is not democracy and that's not checks and bans
thats your person if we're gonna have the Moxie
we're gonna have and right enlightened citizens if we're going to be able to
action baugh
that you know consent the car we have to know what song has not least the broad
outlines the Parsons
and we can't have the government shut us now from every action
you know that they do now that doesn't mean you need to know the name
every single spring it's hard it's out there and detailed
every particular operation against factory and more
we have he front as americans
and members of the global no the broad outlines a
on policies that have a significant impact on our lives
and I think that's something that the Tom direction have dude
so damn i text questions for you on
oftentimes I its biggest critics
often invoke your name and
they invoke it in a positive way and try to contrast what you did
with whatever did but can you talk about that a little bit how does that make you
feel
and you agree with and you disagree with them to the most recent was actually
Secretary of State John Kerry
who said that that you are a hero but hi ed was
was not and sell you spend on elder
well this bullshit in a way started with
like Obama I'll ran
somebody actually took the occasion to ask him about Manning
I N here in San Francisco concede here
country and San Francisco I and said Well
didn't Chelsea Manning them Bradley do exactly what else for did
you know and with with well I could answer that very strange what he said
was
on ellsberg's material was classified in a different manner
well that was true in a way
whatever what as I mentioned earlier everything that Manning put I was secret
or less
and everything I put always top-secret that was the difference
and to I think the person asking the question didn't pursue their
a and of course in your case
arm will I'll come back to that but in your case higher than top secret you
know
communications intelligence stuff which I would earlier have said
arm didn't deserve to be put out and tell you see what it says
and then you see it's evidence of criminality and should not be
subject to criminal prosecution for revealing it even though it years
higher than top secret so since then that was with Manning
and I found them 13 2010 that thanks to Manning and now do you
I'm getting more favorable publicity in forty years
forty haha because suddenly
people who we're all for putting me in prison for life before
now realize that I was really a very good guy I was the
I was the good whistleblower control
I'm I'm totally of course rejected this from the beginning then I
didn't want to be a forreal for showing a battery
to people that I totally admire doing on an identified with
because the inlets leakers whistleblowers
and I appreciate the mall ones who put on information that should have been on
their anonymous I don't know their names on the wall
but the difference here %uh to me with
Manning and you was that each showed very clearly
as I had felt for years ago a willingness to put out enough material
that was gonna see your really be serious but is in prison for life
when when I read that Manning it said relationship to agree in Lommel
the wrong guy to confide in that
he was willing to go to prison for life or even be executed
I said to myself I have waited forty years to hear somebody say that
that's the way I feel forty years ago and
it's taken this long but so I filled immediately and identification with him
obviously in your case in Manning's case in my case
we all have different backgrounds were different in in many ways but we have
the same access
interestingly not comparable comparable and rub
different kinds of things soul identified
with them and I couldn't bear to hear me getting good press
on from the secretary saying from on their on the grounds that
my motives were different and go for example you mention you have some
specific sir
well ellsberg just put out information that was historical
you know are three years old at the
at the most recent well that's because I didn't have for most recent
I if if I had had the current
documents I would not have bothered to put out history
mine high-interest was not in setting the record straight my interest was in
ending an ongoing war
helping to end an ongoing war and for that I would much prefer
to put out current documents which a
at that moment didn't have access to very few people daily in the government
even in the white house. he was a big secret what nixon was really up to
including nuclear threats and I hope
that my documents would show a pattern that extended into the present
and I failed are hardly anybody was willing to extrapolate
and say well ellsberg shown that four previous presidents
live in the same way escalated in the same way made the same kinda secret
threats
are truman Eisenhower Kennedy and Johnson but it ended with those who
attended before nixon
so I thought maybe they'll figure out that maybe the current president
is doing the same Knoll it took documents
and I didn't have that so for years I've been saying
to people it's gonna be with documents even though the increases the risk
well people know that basically but they were willing to take the risk I'm sorry
to say
and I'm could do in announcing show them Manning came out with his
I'll millions haha hundreds of thousands actually
cables and then you with documents
and it's like Mordechai Vanunu in Israel with photographs
that Israel had up a nuclear program and even an h-bomb
that they weren't willing to admit and it took those documents which took the
risk
so what i'm saying is a I saw right away
without having met you without having that Manning that
this is someone who I identify with
and at the same time new heroes she said well as my feeling
I'll heard Snowden's well I have a new hero
now and so thank you
and
providing would actually follow up on that I think there's a really important
want there that wasn't no hasn't been real well
addressed and media and that was you said you acted
you not to reveal specific in yeah but
end the war the basically correct
seniors policies that were costing lives
costing us the future of our country critical home
work needs to be changed where we can step back soon one
enjoy better society and I think people need to remember that
these these a the stories that are being published by Jim
posts the journalists working together
editors institutions to really analyze whether these things
are in public interest whether they can benefit
us Society tomorrow and one published since they were just
you know gossip or they don't have this
just haitian on with me. since the stories
we Dean we not home Lawrence or the new truth
are all about the fact that I
all over communes are being intercepted
elected in license or automatic
and that means that all OVR years or
of Hallmark's russians or associations who talked to who me
cool off we had all these things
are not supported to the officials to the Parsons
of are a few a a few guys behind closed doors
I and we don't know %ah we can hold into
they don't to us they don't even answer to the whole bottle
homes their own 8 members in congress the cop gennady
get full breed on these intelligence programs and interest in
are the intelligence community the intelligence committees the response
overseas problems are these guys who have access to class on
mention Dame receive more
month from actually all every single members committee
receives money from a top 20 intelligence are
companies United States and they also receive more
money from these companies than any other members and cons I in fact
a single one up these %uh congressman his
his name's Dutch Ruppersberger received over 350 brain
from D's companies along that's not always as donations that's just from the
stop on
so when we think about the revelations when we think about the fact that we've
learned
what's going on we have an ability to be we have the ability to correct
this fall reach up when we have the ability the protest
unconstitutional activities never should have begun we
also have a broader I civic understanding of how our government
works
we see the most senior officials and government didn't lie
under oath and making false statements to Congress noble
James clapper but not just congress not just a lot more
there are the ones that didn't get as much attention for example
the Department justice general the United States
he'd long to the Supreme Court twice
in writing and it was in the New York Times
well you know this and become the front page news that you know persists
and we respond to but it was a direct
revolution that came out on the newspaper
on June's was when we found that people had anticipated
are to dial back because its technical terms it's important what happened
is the government was using war
was so its to collect evidence
to justify war applications for warmth serving
that's a violation about the fourth and the system in
for people who keep school are and what's interesting is
they didn't report this to the court's and he didn't report this to the fans
but then they later told the Supreme Court that they were and it turned out
that was untrue
if we don't know these kind of things
we don't know are gone we have to be able to know not just what governments
do but holy
act in order to decide how close the wounds from my sons
if we didn't have whistleblowers like you like Tom Brady my everybody else has
come forward
minutes whilst we would have a blast open less for you must Campbell side
and because of that I think it's worth taking risks to do this
any its it's not just watching
you know that this scandal is what easy the scandals what's happening every day
unconstitutional at least they're still turn right now
the fact that we looking at arm present want things that can talk about a lot
he's have pics this the fact that a the most
the least controversial I in terms of do we can
does this chin is sections yell
and section 213 Patriot Act
basically says the hay we can collect call records Madacy records from
everyone regardless of whether they are suspected and crime
in wrong and we have yet
you know what does that do why are they doing this ones that
because the imprint communications right they don't get anything this is just
this is just the signaling it's like we're par
private acts the me who you talk to
when it happened where was that not
I the exact contact what was said schools
so encryption protects the content but we forget about
Association and that's what this is about these programs like section 2
en masse general is not about serving you
it's not about serving me it's about supreme
us colette it's about watching the comp in
for everybody in the country and on a global scale
this is basically a big data program which provides the raw data
and then be analyzed seeking seltzer I can be subjected to rules for
for I it says everything you do
is being analyzed it's being we it's being
mention and that's without regard to whether or not
you've done anything wrong are so when people say
you why does this matter well why do I care know washington doubles
couch it's because again we think about this in terms of the fourth
it's in unreasonable singe because there's nothing to just up to
happened batsman Britain's were the due process
she's on the system where the government is basically saying
we're gonna use warrantless surveillance
to collect evidence to then secretly used to get a warm
or the first time in shins
our freedom tools she right Congress shall make no
law abridging the freedom prospects
or write to us she the to enjoy the company
whoever we want if
you what are your rights from moment you lost them for a lifetime
and that's why this matters is because it happened and we didn't know
your whole in the post-september 11th period we had programs
up on stones the correct doctor internet meta-data
or home in meta data it was screen
on massive he robust dataset
that allows us to look at connections I and action programmatically
in Los up everybody every polls
all the time and I think that's not good that's
momentum unamerican thing and I think We the People
you the people you miss one right now have both means and capability
to help deal a better future by encoding
our rights into the programs and phone calls on which means life every day
and that's what a lot of my future work is going to be involved in and I hope
you'll join me read in the press every other organization
in making that
so I should mention both dan ellsberg
and now it's known are on frequent press foundation's board of directors in
we really want to make it our call to help journals and sources and everyone
can act in a way they can be
protected on from the government size when
and essentially protect our right to privacy
and free speech and sell I think
that brings me to my next question for ed
and this comes from mom one of the asked own questions on Twitter
is what specifically can designers and developers
and others working in technology start to do to make things better
better in are there specific examples out there that you would like to see
people follow
so when i when i wanna talk about this it's always difficult because it is
entirely dependent on the threat model or the individual was offered
you know I gam gam home has a different set of priorities
then somebody who's working I to report
on the now seasons deeply irresponsible government and Fort
she I and so generally when I talk about this lesson
as encryption Persian Persian because it's an important
first step that denies the government access to anything more to the grievance
suspicion
which is drawn from Association but when we talk about how we
it's the stuff for the future we gotta realize that Association
is often home he doesn't ended action it starts in
friction because you don't think about the links
slim the signals that are happening when I'm emailed you
we gonna can read content the communication medical
you know why I'm way the government I who was at work on Thursday
Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency where the FBI
who works on programs which would be deeply embarrassing governor
wire--the contacting someone at the freemen prestige on the Washington Post
The New York Times
and so the tools like securing drop which are good because their last year
mix round networks locked or
on to this work obviously don't direct network path but we gotta think about
the fact that today if people are connecting through phone that's not
super helpful because the phone for example sees that
you're connecting to toward it seems you're toward user
on a good example this really bad example in terms of sex is this recent
American spy was discovered in germ not he was apparently
alleged in the newspapers spying for the United States against German
hi he then I guess wasn't satisfied with with what was going on
so he said hey I'm in shock myself to what I think are the russians because he
got it email
gene great perhaps I need any help
with the Russian embassy and Asia hey on saw some doctors he said
oh yeah sure sure and he sent them three class products
arm now this is an email I don't know whether it's a and kryptonite for
has women covered in detail with the key is
I yeah for sure it was on this and
the communication I in this case german counterintelligence
his mom although he's actual alleged spot his knowledge
over injures he's interested in money arm
is a the fact that when he did this
he was the only one who had access to these documents whose
out of the office at the time took the day off the Sensei again you know we're
not talking about the most
missed getting on or with this is the kind of thing you have to worry
in terms of how do governments
I discovered the Raptors
and the same techniques they use to discover Sly's
to you stepper germs arm
you know that arise in case I and the rose in case
on both of these are journalists in the United States where for example
are the government was trying to get a chance rise in New York Times reports
reveal
source or they were subpoenaing
I AP reporter we all the songs
I all the phones in their office to say who from the government
all the Associated Press these are Association
since they didn't get the content of the calls but they were trying to figure out
what's going on
when we think about how we nixon's
problematic we think about things in terms of protocols we need to have
for causes a resistant to traffic analysis be happened
basically even if they're some level performance Lt see can't look at
differences in for example Skype
conversations and tell which shot from were
was spoken I'm based on packet size
the signals the so-and-so were on
you also need to use some sort mixed
route some sort shared infrastructure that die forces
that individual connection from the individual
origination and that's the heart problem it's all things were
a performance a performance respect me
toward is a really good job combat tours all cities
the only person you DP are men and a lot of things like that
but I this is this is something that's that's better
really get down and have everybody get into
sore red somebody pitches and I'm and young people community whether that's
clear
whether that's a mailing list each year it's the pure remarked that time do
these things
6 need people to attack these systems
we need people to work with adversaries on all
so we can fix them and there's also the user experience
issue for example GPG is reposted pretty reliable
on encryption unfortunately it's damn near unused
and he are its fine too comfortable with command line it's fine if you're good
key management but again game game at the home is never going to be able to do
that
sort we need encryption
makes routing need are non attributed
communications arm or on attributable
even access URL for example that's available to people
which easy it's transparent and that's why
cool on that we can use not just here in the United States but around the world
is again this is a global prop I the National Security Agency the FBI
these guys love way because we've got the biggest budget 100 most rest
but we're only the sparks remarkable last this is going to be a lot worse
words there and we have to do you know the grad students in the world
have to be thinking about what they can do to fix this
anything can have a shared arms need to think about
how are so worst people
on or going to try this for and Brent
your system not just damage individuals
but today image governments to shield themselves from
oversight and accountability and what can you
what do you know what can you think up
to help shield us from and the techniques wrong with my imagination
at Duke a couple
thing
okay help people were taking notes your honor I in the darkness
her tech texting on the suggestion
he's giving you your much earlier orders a good
up they know this stuff just for her
I'll just two things to meet me
gotta like like your have to take this off but may have to say
with Mike with my hearing problem the reverberation
earlier before these was such that I missed a lot I'm sorry I look forward
scenery broadening our on this on the web I missed a lot of work
say I'm sorry to say but now I can with this
not when I'm talking
two things we've been talking a lot about your
people out here helping
sources extreme importance
helping sources anonymously and without being a tribunal
get there information to journalists to this story true germs
this entry into the public and congress very possibly
I'll for example with the overhearing that we just heard about Kanal feinstein
by CIA I it's a it's real trick to get this stuff
even to the Intelligence Committee which kind of a black hole for information
anyway
but I can't get it to them without the CIA knowing
there is also the problem there isn't going directly after journalists and if
you're sick this is what I was thinking
if you are successful in inspiring the people here
to dis to find way for software
the they can really use you know with even is
I'm not even on Twitter for example
at my age it's enough to be on Gmail
so easy to use
van they need right now when they can find resources and shut them off
that gives you your government control pressure a government person is simply
authorized information from the government whether it's classified or
not
they put out a lot of information is classified because it supports
their programs and their their reputation what not so most
leaks a classified information are actually
authorized by an agency or a high official winner but supposing it becomes
possible now for that
handful whistleblowers really to get the information
then they would wanna go after the byline journalist who prints
now so far they have not done that the
they accept the idea that the public will go along with prosecutions have
officials
who signed a nondisclosure agreement as I did
or you did are and without
really thinking at the fact that that that agreement is not
subject in corporations are also under criminal prosecution drew
punishment by prison 100 subject to a lot of other things like ostracism
your job which is enough to keep people Simon anyway
but supposing now that gets harder to do when they can't shut off all the sources
they haven't yet going against the freedom of the press idea by directly
prosecuting journalists
assigns they have kept on I guess you're always time for the grand jury going
with the threat basically that they're gonna go after him on the grounds that
he's not a real journalist
something like that mean between person but
a actually of course as you know when I know the people
signs didn't do anything that could possibly really be
prosecuted the question also done by the New York Times and by the Guardian by
the driver
which they're reluctant to go after its my
opinion I'm I'm putting this to you but my opinion
that that lies next on the ground
that supposed journalist called michael kinsley
I accused bring greenwald and Peter King is done the same and I think
a number of others and that is you guys you journalists
are aiding and abetting a a crime
a criminal with the assumption being from the beginning
it still leaking is criminally meyer et seq questions to
whether it should be regarded as constitutional to regard us
as criminals but if you do unequivocally regard as a scramble
and people like you then the logic
the people who are helping them get the information to the public
are indeed helping for sure that's what they are doing
but aiding and abetting is a legal term
and it has to do with the crime and perpetrating
with David Gregory a on ass cream or
you know in so far as you are aiding and abetting
his its shaky thing in so far as your why should you not be punished
so missing you I was really thinking I didn't bring it up before
to accept that the giving the information is unequivocally cripple
unequivocally from is I think the first step almost surely
to going along with kinsley and Gregory and so many others
aiding and abetting rather helping publishing is also
criminal seems logical normal are
and they will go there will go after that
as well so I know is that something you thought about her
no I mean it's it's a really complex
are topic and i'm taking
when we talk about whether or not the government begins going
after journalists this is the real sticking point for me because
in terms all my political loss has the latest technology here
is I would say almost all minutes
on when of
when we think about three small we need to think about software
mean that express are freedom but also defended
are governments remind the same technologies
the doc the same standards the use the same
and this happens World War so the solution to that
I when you ask me is
whether or not the united states government can manage to
behave itself to restrain itself against violent
Constitution against bring suits against journalist against
limiting the freedom press other governments will make different
decisions
and if we want to live in a better more online world what we need to do is we
need to remove
those capabilities from the government's by
enshrine our rights into our means
by denying them those buildings at least on a massive
on hard-luck occasional can't pitches Road
every mobile phone never competed out that works gonna
call any of our research an end up on
you now burge Ars Technica or any one of these other sites
arm and this can be post-mortem them out this can be reused
repurpose their find out didn't respect mom
but governments can still pursue their legitimate needs
from law enforcement for intelligence collection on a targeted basis by use
those your days only when they are the least intrusive
and sensual means getting intelligence that they require
but it's worth a shot not doing this on a broad social level when the target
every journalist the top every music see
and this is this is the way I think in the future
me to focus more more toward how we do this
and when you talk about journalists like David Gregory like michael kinsley after
the onset he had
follow that story michael kinsley Arden basically that was not a place
journalists
to decide what the public should and should not now isn't a misquote was
that decision as to what we the public should know must
ultimately be lined up
some people can are but it's a
the key there is that East Dr representing class
interests and we need to recognize them as the class like
these germs who are basically reflexively
going to protect policies
that are working against the public interest should not be trusted to inform
us right need to mark their names and remember what the right now
it's helpful that we get all these different views now they
you participate in the event option for most mean that more
ideas but at the same time when it's being done
to actually limited when they're saying these people shouldn't
make these people should be able to publish stands
this news should never means we watch out
because that not ever benefit public that's making
our society that government institutions necessarily less
now I mean it's a challenge second
or on in terms of class interested can we talk about her
Texas and passions holes Julius Ainge
we at one point where is that hackers world sis
sisson world night anybody out there who you know
posts on Stack Overflow the Stack Exchange Inc
arm you guys are parked technical lead
right if you mean her of poor work a
is or hoops were even opened ET now
have a few even for clinics you know are
hmm you're in advocate
that is going to help us move forward
in shifting the middle ground of technical literacy for the National
right along young people like are they understand how technology works to
extend
but this is important to him they don't know what we're doing
right they don't know where the canoe owns they don't know
I have network works arm they trusted devices to hang
we all any of us no even the slightest
have a city beauty to help educate
rounds just like the rise of course is right we have an obligation
to teach people around us how to read and write
we have to teach people in our society how iraq
society with our technology safe
reliable in a way that serves the interests of all of us not just a select
few who don't wanna high priest
technology no matter how good that is for us
because its best in the world on and
unclear
I I think
go ahead and start no see I was very
struck twice something you said in Vanity Fair
quarter which is that everyone image
I thought I was restricted everyone a vision I believe this is absolutely true
has known things that were wrong
saw things has seen things that were wrong should be known that should be
exposed
and as you put it we have turned our eyes away
because we were intimidated and I happened you were speaking of yourself
speaking myself are come back to that but I i believe that through every human
on earth that there are times when the bite their tongues
they keep their mouth shut because to reveal it would
would destroy would lose a relationship or a given very private matters
or a job or career whatever
and it kept and then you said a then you said
but there comes a time you know when the
in level with him humanity or the wrongness
is so great that you have to cross over that line is he said he said I crossed
over that mine
now to to tell true now
I thought when I read that that's edward smiled
who get that and that's chelsea manager
and how many others
when you said there comes a time when you very generally
I'll cross over that line and tell the truth even at cost
to relationships to your boss to your friends to your
everything else most people I have to say
never do reach that mine may never reach a point
when they decide to take a risk other own status in their own relationships
and their own shop can attest to that is that many of them have been tested on
things like
the continuation of a wrongful war of thousands applies hundreds of thousands
in the case of tobacco
they said 500,000 lives
a year bossed by tobacco look at GM
right now the handful but you know striking where they deliberately covered
up covered up is
is not only me in the how many people the tram
know that lives were being lost in people were being injured and who spoke
I'll
nobody don't think so are tobacco
to people her leg one thing that I hope
from you premier example is that more people will be inspired
to take even significant risks in other words were talking when I am
the whole group here about lowering the risks for people
and that's undoubtedly essential but in the end
there will always be a risk as you say an point problems and so forth and the
willingness to take that risk
for civilians is very rare
I it was a as you may know was bismarck 20 people who said
civil courage she owns invented that phrase signal-caller
the is very I think courage on the battlefield
is the very common in our country are perfect country
and at that point uses civil courage is another matter
very rare its willingness to risk now as I said before Manning and before you
I virtually give I i have to say it almost given up on it
and you're showing an example now Manning didn't get the
art gallery attention but he didn't get the
affecting this country except as I said earlier for getting our troops home from
Iraq
that you did and why because I think
in Manning's case he was showing what we were doing to
other people in the third world for others
model and you
and i three in my case
with the effect because it had millions of Vietnamese that were being killed
wrongly every one of them is wrong
when I read the pentagon papers in real life that from the
for the first time that the very beginning we were supporting a French
colonial re-conquest to the country which I thought of it
on american weather was illegal internationally or not
I'm sure every death in vietnam
as being unjustified homicide
and to me that was murder mash
murder and I couldn't be prouder that anymore watching well
the american people didn't respond I'm sorry to say on the whole
sharper people in audiences like this to the mass murder
but there were 58,000 Americans in the process of dying them
see and in your case again it wasn't so much directly dime
but what was being done to us in people are are objecting to that
so I think we have to have a different standard a new show the possible even
your colleagues initially as you said
agree with you many of them this is wrong it shouldn't be happening
but I have a mortgage I have a marriage I have you know this in their
children to go to college and that was enough
even though all were talking about this massive
you know intrusion which is a is a new world basically the people need to know
about
soap it shouldn't be only you I would hope that some of your colleagues who
I would suspect let me give you a little PC experience from my experience
if you were in the room with your former colleagues now
I would expect them to leave them
that they would not be in touch with you if you can tell me that the former
colleague from NASA
hasn't anyway communicated with you to save did the right thing or in any way
help it I would guess there was zero on that that was my experience at the RAND
Corporation
you lose every friend you have who who has a clear it sets from that's all your
friends
so liked you're not made of sugar as you Sean
a you can you can deal with that guy I
for you say yesterday it was in the paper if I mean change in guantanamo
I can live with that well that didn't surprise me that that's the
that's the person I find you to be that was not surprised it's pretty unusual
statement
you know after orgasm well let's make it a little less unusual
I'll you win in the Special Forces try to get there
and your legs broken so forth golden
I used my marine training in vietnam is a civilian
I marine company commander in peacetime
and so a user training in vietnam so I saw combat I work with troops in combat
there you see current physical courage
every minute every day a people
same doing the job was trying to say the conference room
the kind of courage is marvelous I
marine one set on cock at terroir uncommon you would remain
uncommon courage was a common virtue okay right
when you're doing it for the boss for the commander in chief with the applause
appear country even if you don't get the approach most of it is anonymous
but you know they would approve you with a new ever
what they were doing in a they would hold you accountable with you didn't do
it
we should have a different standard than we do for civilian officials
and not just official you know one of them regarded himself as an official but
a middle-level person
you shouldn't be simply that you were the extraordinary hero that we thank
it should be that we should ask the question of those other people
hi me do you think you could keep this secret that long
keep it totally keep your miles a lot of blood is road because people better
times
and swallow their whistles and dry didn't speak out
and it's time I think that we not prosecute them but tell them
that is not the way to preserve democracy you were not
fulfilling your oath and I'll just him by saying
people ask as I you is the Patriot
or trader you know that's the headline in all these things
Edwards no patriot air that drives me nuts the very thought you know
that people could regard he was a traitor the ignorance
up the media and the congresspeople and the other hand the interviewers
grace that question offends me is an American think think
that it can be traitorous to tell the truth to your fellow
countrymen what
to standard I would like to see said I'm sure the standard I would like to thank
known was the one person in the fucking
NASA get what he absolutely should have done how many people should have done
what you did
the killed healthy man
confidence about country when it came out I see it now
I'll pp interpreter we all took the same old
to uphold and defend the Constitution have already said
the people who violated all the time thousands are people who
who are against it like changing some other when it comes to
proving that poll no one
in the US military services up to the commander in chief
has fulfilled her oath
to defend and support the Constitution like Chelsea Manning
and no one in the US executive branch in any branch
his filled your oath the oath to uphold support the Constitution
as well as you so thank you
that's hot I would harm
I'm still politically very modern
you know I think it's funny very first time
I I met gland removed sort
the lead journalist talk to in hong kong he called me a wrap
and that was a surprise me because that was the first time I'd ever been home
decal
but he didn't mean it that way he called you work
set against arrest a poet
radical action radical action right on
with his I think there are so many people throughout the government
throughout the country we're trying to do the right thing as you said
there is this this burden this compulsion
this are operation inertia
where they feel you know they
we talked about its new office are people who saw this as well
who agreed this was wrong who were disturbed by and
who felt we needed to do something but at the same time we all have a sense
we all have more we all have lives we all have things we want to do things we
want you
and you did you did too right
why I mean I'll of Hawaii everybody you know I i don't have to say I love my
friend
mom but you put a person's risk and I i mean
the highest possible on when I walked out of the office from
why on last day was that
I would never make it out on your mom
but I accepted that has I knew that
as you said earlier we all have to win it the
level incivility inhumanity you can see
and do nothing about and when you cross that line
you have to do something but at the same time we can't
we can judge people too harshly
for human nature people have a different analysis a different weighting
risk at least for me are what's important forces not
and then between able in power I don't wanna take
negative stance judging them and saying you didn't do what you're supposed to do
you didn't do which use more will do even if that is the case
I think a min from an engineer's perspective no how
can we its how can the people
in this room reduce the costs action
how can the people in this room how can people around the world who can
n machine what's happened the last year what
thoughts %um about how we can make sure
we get the truth what our government spending
that we have a seat at the table with government regardless
how to 410 government regardless of what their response will be
because when they do something wrong we will now
and they don't know who told the world and
critical misses the point this is not about in this is not about you know one
thing how
welcome this is about time when governments real
its that when they do on wall
things when they do on Constitution things were when they do things that are
entirely legal
comprehensively in more we will find out about
that will change war that will change the way we
because the problem today is when you bring
you know I case when the system we have today
is I secret agencies
operating under secret policies secret interoperation
interpretations loss overseen by secret courts
rusty words 35 use have said no
only 13 times out 35,000
when s the way it comes and you know they're overseen by the
congressman we're gonna pockets stuffed home a lot of times like these
intelligence contracting companies are what
the government has done when we look at this anyone other steps
isolation fact that it takes 10 years to get this for dinner
open chords at the supreme court's that the secret war
when we look at what that is and isolation any step it might look like
you know clever morning by the cup but when we look at Copper
it comprehensively one he is is the government has developed
and expunge the Copperhead provides basically the room
passable to our constitution the escaped
the sandbox our democracy and they're basically
using to change are built rights
without mercy and we will go what is the bill right say
brutus I miss all well for a moment still there but in reality it's gone
something completely different happen beyond behind-the-scenes
and we can't allow that and the only way
we can stop that from being retrospective action where we go back to
investigate and try to figure out
who did something wrong who we should hold to account is we have to make sure
we stop it
work at only way that's going to happen is we have transparency
we have accountability to the senior officials who popped up in the first
place
and
well very good
are I for civil let me say I
I agree I understand what you're saying don't condemn these people working on
that is the important thing
but you when I are talking we're having a real discussion here because we do
have a somewhat different focus
and I happen to think that both approaches are important
when we think actually
when I I keep mentioning is forty years between nineteen 73 with my trial ended
in 2000
13 when you came out
for years or 71 2010 so for
I in fact came to feel that I was apparently just asking too much
that somehow you
you keep saying you know everybody has a limit
and what I was seeing was no
a few people have government and most of them have
note that by the way as you said there's no question at all times
there are people in the system who are criticizing
were raising questions were even using this is
wrong or what not up to a point as you did
before you know you went all the way and talk to other people
what their limit is going outside going outside channels going to the public
going that moment
doesn't get across the taking a risk even complaining or criticizing
some and the they may even lose our jobs as result
I eventually but they get another job as long as they haven't broken that promise
to keep their mouth shut about anything
see they can get another job they can be trusted the
they will stay inside the system like dreadful and wait
during the Vietnam War but they don't I'm
so I i come to feel nobody apparently
know what it can do this I don't know or it so necessary in it so obvious
the price %uh not doing it the price the government achieving
total control total control I love
the embarrassing things in the plans are going to
is Vietnam War and the Iraq war
the approach to climate we've had right along
the nuclear weapons policies which are incredibly reckless shame shame
Lee reckless that have gone on without exposure from people inside
they don't have a limits or something met you in Manning did show me
there are some people out there I've always felt that they were more
who had the capability to cross that line then we were seeing
and that you know the advantage and your approach
is to make it less dangerous less risky
and I agree that's the central and can be done and the people in this very room
are contributing to that encamped richer as we
we were speaking last time you and me I have
being not a technologist less optimism about technology
then you have you know infinitely more about it than I do but
I'm more than twice the age you are and
the future of Titanic's let's say is
is in my mind even though I that was before me but
on the challenger for example and I don't put my
I it's hard for me to believe that all these people together
will make the process of telling embarrassing things about
the government which is exactly what the public needs to know to hold them
accountable to have an influence on policy
that that can be made totally riskless
I think that there were there will remain a risk of some kind and I think
that hurts and I don't think we're ever
you probably agree with that yeah there's never going to be a holy
risk-free in but we can do is we can mitigate
yep in britain trying to get a little bit more available a little bit less
painful
ago arm and yup its
want to get one for your permission this is crucial it's crucial that they do
that what you're saying is crucial
but i just want to put in a word for the what I've been saying here
which is the hope that people like like you
any other speaking out here timed recon just one reader
and the other who have spoken the truth that people can be inspired other
that they will be more
whistleblowing in there has been even given
risk and you know I was
handed him here we were coming in a
thing from expose fact which is a poster
that is I'll appearing in in Washington right now
and it has a with my picture and has a big headline
saying don't do what I did because
are I E for years
didn't want to talk about people I talked about civil disobedience in the
need to do in connection with nuclear things in order
gotten arrested more than a few times over and i won people generally did not
have
access to classified information so I wasn't talking to people who
had their taxes journey they won't let me talk to them
and the anyway getting audience here and so
I didn't want to say you should be whistleblowers
because it sounded too much like saying do what i do. in that same self
self-promoting and then I thought it was a
with the recording on that poster a new way to put it
don't you way to war
his started don't wait till thousands more have died
before you tell the truth with documents
and it doesn't say it on the sign but he said even at personal cost
even interpersonal risk that people should see
yes you're not in prison but you are an exile
and probably I have to say I see very sadly I think
indefinitely I don't do not see this congress
and a in any future president to this one
changing the law and they should rescinding paragraph Eve 18 USC 793
which should be rescinded as unconstitutional I don't think that's
going to happen
and that means you couldn't come back and have a fair trial
ever I that I really foresee in this country
I'll in other countries that they may change our laws that's in process the
following a public interest defence
and allowing an argument but I and I would love to see that in this country
but I don't see it happening so that means you have a fellow
for many people that could be a negative well look
he did it and picture telling us to do can come back to his own country
what the fact is you shold first of all you're not in prison
if you came back here as you know and I know
you would not be able to talk to the public
make your case to the public the way carry and
weaken ever juju Henry actually said
make your case to the public which actually affects the legal
all ship you would be in an isolation cell like Chelsea manning up for two and
a half months
but for the rest of your life I believe from the moment you
you were arrested so you could not make your case the way you can
in are going for the whole world right now so it's essential
it was I said this reason it is essential for you to be out of the
country
when you major revelations was another difference people said well dan ellsberg
say
faces for all the whole thing altogether but you could I was able to speak
demonstrations the interviews everything as you're doing now from outside the
country
inside the country even while the FBI
was looking for me I was on walter cronkite
in the evening I even using an undisclosed location
in Cambridge we've gotten very excited
an internal here either I am the the FBI's with 30 the world
and I'm on evening news well you are too
but you had to be out of the country and was essential that the people hear from
you
so what I'm saying people can look at him saying
here is a guy who understood that it was worth taking a risk
worth risking in even sacrificing personal relationships
on so great you're her father was able to go to Russia and see you but you know
if you if you're in a situation so not so much you know
so Chelsea Manning has never been interview
by reporters from the time she was arrested in kuwait into
no reporter has been able to see her face to face
and talk to her will you have the you would have the same
prospect and it's worth it
you did the right thing I don't even have to ask you whether you regret
paying this price I can't even imagine you know wouldn't hurt you
I never met a person who went to prison against the draft
against the war and all other who inspired me to give the Pentagon Papers
I don't know why I'm whoever told me they were granted 23
years in prison thanks man so that's an example
it has to be seen yes lower the risks
also get the message out it's worth taking the risk awards with a lives may
be at stake
in our democracy in your case is that state thank you
and one their their couple things I could
saying on that just real quickly because I I think we're running down on time
but the we had an extra twenty minutes L
ok keep talking we can go to a
we got a 50 okay
arm there's a lot
I'll one of the things which you touch on patriotism
a little better and I think everybody in this room
would agree you know most most the time people who attend her conferences are
marks last my but geena Petri
doesn't move you know obedience
to putting aside
your obligations to your people to your country
for the benefit of your government is the office
pic is oaths to it or
I want most dangerous & Co Roces things
a person to greet you in society and culture around what we
require I'll what we should
which are oaths now
its my like our Constitution she didn't want us to stand up for our Constitution
say
you guys this is most ridiculous shit I have ever seen you know you're smiling
everybody in the country and everybody world you not even bothered
querer real means your secret arm
you not only brings
now initially expect us
to do that if they expect us to stay site
in the face extraordinary masses widespread violations of the
Constitution
they shouldn't ask us to take the oath first place you know because the nazis
are there is there something else
you mention their moms actually a really short work members are completely lost I
was thinking
year Swiper you're too young tender to your
I a lifetime
means law yes things like that will do that I guess
child on the Internet but really it's how we come together
we fix the problem right we we know what we have but the key is you talk about
the way things are
you talked about the system we have today you talked about the
proclivities almost use or protect their own interests to the detriment
up the people to the detriment of their own homes to the judgment
themselves the second come because comfort is a tremendous
you know more than when we talk about hun captures in on the Internet
home it sounds stupid but we loved ones you know the the mean a lot to us
but the key is when we talk about government
saldovar you know again a attacking the hypervisor
our democracy getting out there and you know it it's changing domain
the boundaries our rights without telling us about
if they can do it to the fourth in the system and they can do in
right you may say I'll X
don't care about spun recommend spying on me its gonna
right when you see when you see
not just the Prince's but the wrongs
that are in here you initial make apartments
okay these are rights that are in here my nature
these are writes that long to human condition he's a rights third
deepened up and the kids were peeled back in time you never did it was that
it's gonna get worse arm the founding father said
people yet the government desert newspeople
aren't willing to stand up people willing to take yes
to reveal long even if it means they have to burn their own life
their families you know their their children
descent and everybody after us the values that they hold dear will
disappear
world and we all inability to push back against
we all have you to contribute you know
in that the open source movement is a great example of this
but it's not limited a problem its
no politics is the way we miss the way we talk to our hearts
when we talk Orton's we have the ability to build
and more almost there just society every
and even technologies dangerous and destabilizing
when we don't think about when this before when we think about increase in
robot is a she workforce
the fact we have young people who have tremendous
student debt never been result that's not dischargeable
bankruptcy proceedings thanks government without arm
we have a new class that our intentions
I in a very new and modern way that's for corrosive
to the sort to Gallatin deals
that we as Americans aspired whole
and if we don't take chains don't take
risks to push back and say more
we have a place missus we have in place in this world
you guys them are not gonna represent
public's interest you can represent who you can represent
you can represent class interests
exclusive to the detriment
the left or that coochie in that seat
we're going to bill new site Ranjan
and thanks to the same technology that's
lead us in many ways we are now in power
in New its you know when we when we talk about all these things will talk about
massive
announce when we talk about the fact that you know
we've got its famous inquisitors in history it said give me six lines
written by the hand at the most honest man must find something to hang him with
no we're not talking about and positions from medieval times were talking about
Keith Alexander
not and its up to us to change that because we can revoke
that homes on we can try democratic BodySpace
now if they say you're gonna exclude you on that day
if we're going to exclude you from those discussions if we're gonna
play games like they're doing the UK when the past are
an extraordinary expansion span one spouse just last week
under the guise emergency law when they've been ignoring the emergency last
year
arm we have not just
the capability but we haven't
obligation to push back against
to Creekside what
so easily with government which questions
so we'll have about two minutes left I'm do each if you want to take a minute
to on address each other or
address the audience
we we really do agree fundamentally your because you talk about
talk about bypassing the people who don't take risks in the government
building a new technology I just wanna say that
to will take risks in other words people as we know from Aaron Swartz's we know
from the others
who've gone down here basically
German him the other the and Tom Drake who tried to do this
and very gerd we be in for
tried within channels dual there is risk even if you don't get prosecuted
if you can so people will have to be willing in all the serbs even here
even here it will people take risk possible you remember
tundra yesterday just what we talk about it you when I talk a lot about the
Constitution
and rights jewel that's not
in the end that's not the beginning in and up the problem here
after all the Constitution or thrice slavery
for a long time the Fugitive Slave Act was upheld by the Supreme Court
and the people who violated that a great risk we're doing the right thing
rosa parks are refused to sit together for mercy
she was violating in in Montgomery Alabama she was driving along urban
upheld by the Alabama Supreme Court
if thats modern oxymoron sometime but the
on the fact was once civil disobedience
was mister if they change the law
or I should say if the Supreme Court up holes for the first time
it's never addressed this question the espionage her with its strict liability
with its no public interest no not
without any the changes that are necessary in if they are poll that and
say its constitution we would've lost pretty much over First Amendment
and without the first commander in the fourth amendment and other things
and that will have to be violated at that point
will have to be civil disobedience at that point in the supreme court will
said
5 a.m. maybe more maybe six will have said
its constitutional to allow for government solely by
him down and one journalist will live with that michael kinsley and David
Gregory will take their handouts
are with with no problem allow the the government
to have the last word as to whether something should be redacted or not
they'll still be newspapers as in China
but the fact is we will have lost the independent branches
we don't have much in congress now or in the courts
but something with will have lost the ability to rebuild their
and the affect will be say more
unnecessary wrongful wars handle
so more climate deprivation and so forth
so we need more people like you was I keep saying
many others but also people who were less courageous if I may say but who are
willing to take
some risk and to discover that there are limits
to what they will put up with that in this audience and Amin
government and they will quickly find if they ask that question that there are
limits
and I should be willing to take a risk they'll discover what I
discovered in 1969 the government is gone
beyond those limits for me and they have to be explored
and with that I think we'll be right there
will be hard to find the limit if you start asking yourself whether there is a
limit
mother should go across a edge in any closing thoughts
at are just real quickly
look around everybody
whose in this from
run and recognize that weaker broad cross-section
people who are thinking about these issues working on these issues affect
issues there are people from the NSA in this one
right now you know they they pay travel hostile conferences in
my min people who go and read a little ports in the share
everybody else go to different tracks they make sure they see all the fun
starts
arm put the keys even for you got to work for the NSA who were in the room
much longer to do I'm not telling you what to believe in
you know and its okay if you can it's okay if you disagree with me
it's okay for everybody you know
to look at this because we have to decide how we feel
right we gotta stop honking that what's on the news
is the gospel truth once she says behind dunno
poem is exactly the right answer what I say something that you hear a lot of I
could be totally fall she
you gotta figure out what you believe in
in Staines word you have to stand
for you now and whether I'm a good guy
weatherman whether I'm here or whether a traitor
none of that matters criticizing he
I think about what matters in issues
run think about the world you want to learn nanoparticles
I could ask you to do one thing thank you to everybody
on and thank you panels for everything the
thank you
the I can hear the whistle really well the
I can you have even better
thank you
the
and
and really don't know what does not the
and you know what to do when this happens
okay our hands are gonna be hurting for a few days but it was worth it
thank you at Snowden thank you Daniel Ellsberg thank you trevor Tam thank you
attendees for making this such an amazing experience
I think it really made history today our schedule is a bit late so
things are going to be one hour behind one hour delivered a change
so we're going to try and start the the next auction of three tracks
as close to four o'clock as possible please
file orderly into whatever direction you wish to file an arm
I had and continue being responsible and on
and have a lot of fun alright
will season