This is BBC News, we will have the headlines at the top of the
hour as Newsday continues after HARDtalk.
Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi.
Next month in South Africa, the ruling ANC holds its five
yearly national conference, where president Cyril Ramaphosa
is seeking re-election as leader of the party,
which puts him in position to contest national
elections in 2024.
But, South Africa is currently in the midst of a severe
economic meltdown with mass unemployment and crippling
power cuts and a political culture which many are warning
could bring the state to the point of collapse.
My guess is the South African Justice Minister,
Ronald Lamola, seen as one of the rising stars of
the ANC's younger generation.
How does he account for the government's
failure to address the many challenges it faces?
Justice Minister Ronald Lamola in Pretoria,
welcome to HARDtalk.
People in South Africa are struggling.
Unemployment of at least 35%, nearly two-thirds
for young people.
What has happened to all those promises when the ANC
came to power in 1994?
You have let the country down, haven't you?
There has been a broken promise, as you have seen from
the Zondo Commission's report.
These are situations we think the current administration
is responding to and we have begun the process to rebuild
the institutions, and we believe that we are beginning
to turn the corner because money has been recovered that
has been stolen from the fiscals,
and also the institutions
are beginning to arrest the alleged perpetrators.
This corner is beginning gradually to be turning.
The institutions are being restored, including the SOE,
as it affects the energy crisis, the board,
the new board, and the various institutions that are
responsible in terms of the energy crisis,
we believe that gradually, we are rebuilding including
the process that you are well aware of, of the gas
transition and we are currently speaking in the COP27
where we are looking at the transition that
will be sustainable, that will be responsive
to reduce the carbon emissions but also continue
to use our natural endowment, like coal, in a manner that
will help us to transition.
Appreciate that you are trying to address your energy issues.
You say that the SOEs, the state-owned enterprises,
which were mentioned, in the Zondo Commission,
that is chief justice Raymond Zondo in June
when he concluded the judicial inquiry into state capture
in South Africa, when, and of course by state
capture we mean under former President Jacob Zuma
when businessmen and politicians redirected
resources into their own pockets, you're talking
about all that but that is a tired old excuse, isn't it,
minister Ronald Lamola?
You are part of an administration that has
been in power since 2019.
You could be doing more to tackle all of these challenges.
It is not a tired old excuse.
We have started to reboot those institutions to ensure
that the money that was stolen is brought back, and in
the MPA in South Africa, we started to rebuild,
including to help them to appoint experienced
prosecutors including from private practitioners,
to help the national prosecuting authority to be
able to handle complex matters and as we speak
they are beginning to claw back the money and resource
and including to hold people accountable.
OK, let me - can I just interrupt you there?
Sorry, but I just want to pick up again on something that
Chief Justice Raymond Zondo said in his findings.
He says the ANC, an ANC government, should be
ashamed that this happened under their watch,
and since Jacob Zuma's resignation in February 2018,
the ANC have done little to tackle corruption
within the party ranks.
That's why I say you can't just blame it all on
the previous administration.
Zondo says you've not done much to get your acts together
to tackle corruption.
Yeah, hence we say it is not correct, because if you look
into the institute today, it is beginning to account,
even in the previous year or so, where we put
what is called processes in the ANC, where those that
are accused or who have been mentioned in the Zondo
Commission of inquiry have stepped aside.
Some of them that were arrested have stepped aside into
positions of responsibility.
As we speak now, the ANC does not have a Secretary General
precisely because of this issue.
So it is a sign that the ANC has been acting amongst
its members who were mentioned in that process, even those
that have been mentioned recently,
we continue to act on them.
So the ANC is accountable to the people of this country
on some of these issues, but the ANC also continues
to ensure that it holds government to account,
including the current administration, where
the boards of the various state owned entities are now
being rebooted to be able to be fit for purpose,
to respond to the energy crisis, to respond to
the crippling challenges, of logistical challenges
at the Transnet, and also to the various roles
which the state owned enterprises are aimed for.
OK.
You mentioned Transnet there, that's the large
South African rail, port and pipeline company.
But, you know, people are really struggling,
Justice Minister, in South Africa.
I mean, you know, after 28 years of ANC rule, you've got
people living in shacks
still waiting for the promised government housing.
We've talked about the power challenges.
People talking about the millions of dollars
meant to help fight Covid-19 were found to have been
misappropriated to the point that former President Thabo
Mbeki has said, you can't have so many people unemployed,
so many poor people.
"One day it's going to explode."
He's predicting a kind of Arab Spring revolution in
South Africa if the government doesn't get a grip on all this.
He's right, isn't he? The clock is ticking for you.
The challenges of people struggling,
it's a global challenge.
Even in the Great Britain, across the globe, people
are struggling, including in the US, because of
the Covid-19 that has crippled economies across the globe.
It is a function that all of us are responding
to, and as you speak about the resources that
were stolen during the Covid-19 period, most of the people that
were responsible for that have been held to account.
The monies have been clawed back through institutions
like the special investigating unit, and we are building
to ensure that there is an economic recovery plan
to take us back to the Covid-19 period, which is what
the current administration is responding to, and that
will also obviously need a compact between government
and the private sector so that we are able to respond
to the declining economy or lack of economic growth,
including to the challenge of unemployment, which affected
mostly young people, and we are of the view that
if we are able to find that compact between us
and the private sector and society as a whole,
we will be able to respond to ensure economic growth
and to the challenge of unemployment.
OK, Justice Minister Lamola, even if you say now
the Government's got the will to address all these
challenges, I put it to you, as Sanusha Naidu, an analyst
at the Institute for Global Dialogue, says,
How can you actually do all this effectively
when, she says, so many of the state's organs
are financially and systematically broken?
So, even if you had the will, you don't have the tools.
The tools, as I have said, are being rebuilt as we speak, now.
The national prosecuting authority in the country,
responsible for prosecuting and dealing with some of these
challenges that you have raised, is being rebuilt.
We have been able to appoint about a thousand prosecutors
in a period of three years, which will enable them
to function, and we do believe that because of that rebuilding
of some of the institutions, like SARS, that has now
collected more than it had expected, it is a sign
that it is being rebooted and it is being now
well oiled for people.
So there is work to rebuild the institutions and you can
see some green shoots in that regard.
You mentioned the South African - SARS, which is the South
African Revenue Service, but I want to repeat
to you the point that Thabo Mbeki said, which,
he said, one day this is going to explode.
He's saying you don't have the time for all this.
People are hungry now.
They're living in shacks.
They don't have the power cuts, there are interruptions
to the water supply.
This is all going to take time, and they want
to see results now.
But if there is a compact between government
and the private sector, I do believe that people
will have hope that we are resolving the challenge,
because they will see in action the economy recovering.
They will see jobs being created.
They will also see those that have stolen from the fiscus
being held accountable.
They will also participate in the project to rebuild our
democracy, and I do believe that because, from time
to time, the people have an opportunity in South Africa
to participate in elections, which they have just done,
for the local government elections - also, in 2024,
soon, they will also participate
in an election process.
Our democracy enables them to participate.
It is not the same conditions in the Arab Spring,
as you said, where they did not have a period of regular
democracy to participate and to express a view in terms
of the country's direction.
So I do believe that the people in this country,
as they participate and also play a role in legislative
frameworks and also in policy development to respond
to the challenges that they are feeling.
They will be able to continue to shape the country's
democracy, not in a manner that they may be destructive,
but in a manner that is constructive and developmental.
You mentioned the municipal local elections last year.
The ANC won less than half of the votes for the first
time, with South Africans naming corruption
as their top concern.
People are losing faith in the ANC.
Yes, but we remain a leading party and we have demonstrated
to the people that we are rebuilding that trust
through ensuring that whoever was, is involved in corruption
is held to account and institutions are able to stand
on their own without any interference from politicians
or from bureaucracy.
The institutions like the judiciary, the rule of law
remains our standing beacon of hope for the people
of this country. All right.
So that whoever is involved in corruption, whether it's
local government, whether it's the national government
or state-owned entities will be held to account.
All right.
And could the president be held to account?
Because, as you know, he's embroiled in a controversy
right now involving a theft of about four million US dollars
from his cattle farm in the north of the country.
The opposition, and even some within the ANC,
questioned whether he violated foreign exchange or tax rules.
The president denies any wrongdoing very firmly
and he says the stolen money, the money that was taken
for him was the proceeds of an animal sale that he made.
the South African ombudsman that investigates allegations
on public misconduct is looking into this case.
So we're all awaiting to see what happens there.
However, this doesn't look good for you, does it?
The president is a constitutional,
democratic person.
He has subjected himself to the institutions that are
appointed to investigate him.
He is cooperating with them.
All the institutions from the law enforcement
agency, the, the public protector, as we have said,
including the processes of parliament, and the president
said he will cooperate with them wholeheartedly and fully.
And he knows that the institutions must be able
to stand on their own.
And the constitution of the country is
the one that reigns supreme.
So we have to give that process a life of its own.
All right.
We'll see what happens in that particular case.
You're...
The ANC, since it came to power 28 years ago, and
including the administration, in which you serve,
has also been trying to deal with the longstanding issue
of land ownership.
According to President Ramaphosa, about 72%
of South Africa's privately owned land is in the hands
of members of the white population, who
account for between 8-10% of people in South Africa.
And the black population, who make up the vast number,
own a very small percentage of that land.
A bill to address this failed in Parliament last year.
So what is the main option now to really tackle
this long-standing injustice?
Yes, the bill could not go through because, as the ANC,
we still believe in mixed ownership of land,
where the state owns the land for its own use,
individual saving, private ownership and touristic people,
and also communal land, where we need to provide
a security of tenure.
We have an option.
We are currently having an expropriation bill,
that is before Parliament and that expropriation
bill is now being passed by the National Assembly
awaiting concurrence by the National Council
of Provinces in Parliament.
Once it goes through that, it will now have
to go to the President for his accepting.
We also have the Land Court Bill, which is aimed to fast
track the disputes that are before the Land Court
now and also to make the Land Court permanent.
It will also develop jurisprudence.
That Land Court Bill, which also have been passed
by the National Assembly, is now in the NCOP,
which immediately after being passed there and also
the National Assembly, it will have to be accepted
to by the, by the president.
The current sixth administration is, also,
in the process of distributing about 700,000 hectares of land
to respond to this challenge.
Yeah.
We remain committed to the land question.
We will also obviously have to accelerate some
of the various pieces of legislation aimed
to accelerate land reform.
OK, thank you.
You've set that out very clearly for us.
You mentioned the NCOP, which of course,
is the National Council of Provinces, which is
the upper house of the South African Parliament.
Another big challenge, which is often associated
with South Africa, is the issue of crime.
We've seen the murder rate go up by 40% since 2010.
We've seen kidnappings for ransom quadruple.
We've seen the theft of infrastructure such
as copper and power cables, resulting in billions
of dollars in damage.
Gold and platinum are illegally mined
or stolen and sold illicitly.
This is a dismal state of affairs for you
as Minister of Justice.
So, in a nutshell, what are you doing to tackle all this?
Yes, there is work happening with the NPA
and the South African police where there is a unit dedicated
to respond to the issue of theft of copper cables.
As you look now, there have been lots of sentences that
have been handed over by our courts to various
criminals who played their role in cable theft.
Some of them have been sentenced to more than
15 years, some ten years.
So it has been a range of heavy sentences to criminals
involved in cable theft.
There is also a dedicated focus on the, on the issue
of the mining towns challenges.
And there's been lots of arrests even there.
Oh, yeah.
Some of the criminals have already been convicted.
So there is work in progress in that, which we believe
we need to do more.
But, yeah, you do need to do more.
Sorry to interrupt you here, but you cannot get on top
of this, can you, Minister?
A report this year by a Geneva based NGO, the GITOC,
that's the Global Initiative Against Transnational Organised
Crime, says all of the things I was talking about "are signs
that the state "is struggling to contain criminal activity.
"In three decades, organised crime has spread
across South Africa "and forged links across the world".
Yes, hence we are putting a focus on this form
of organised crime, and as I have said, some
have already been convicted.
OK.
It is important that we get the planners, the plotters,
the ringleaders, the middle people that are the ones
who are making the chain of organised crime to work.
And that is where the focus now of the cluster is.
And then, with time, you will be able to see that happening.
And there has been soon, recently, arrests of,
of this kind of crime syndicate...
OK. We'll be looking at that.
And you said you're working... ..with law enforcement.
Sorry to cut across you then.
You said you were working with the NPA, which is, of course,
the National Prosecution Authority.
But let's just look at the general kind of picture
for the ANC and its prospects.
The respected South African commentator William Gumede says
"there is a psychological acceptance within South Africa
"that it is the end of the ANC as a single governing party".
And he predicts that the ANC will lose its majority
nationally in the 2024 election.
This is a very clear sign, isn't it, that after nearly
three decades in power, South Africa is being run
as a kind of one-party state and people no longer trust
you to get things done?
South Africa has always been a multiparty democracy
since even President Mandela.
You will remember he ran the country with the
former President de Klerk in a multiparty democracy.
So there has always been opposition parties.
They've always played a role in our country.
And we deliberately allowed a proportional
representation system to enhance in the flourishing
of various political parties and, and views in our country.
The ANC has been, obviously, a dominant organisation,
a leading party in that regard and we do believe, as the ANC,
that we were able to reconnect with the trust of the people,
ensuring that those that were involved in the,
in the theft of, of monies or siphoning of monies in these
fiscals are accountable.
If we ensure that all the institutions
of our democracy work, the SO is responding to
the challenges of unemployment, lack of economic growth.
We will reconnect with the people of South Africa
and the ANC will continue to be the governing party.
OK, you talk about the multiparty democracy
system in South Africa.
I mean, could the ANC conceivably go a bit further?
Because, you know, there is the thought that there comes
a time when a party that's been in office a long time
could benefit from not holding power exclusively.
And I tell you, a survey by the Social Research Foundation
in April this year showed that many potential voters
in South Africa favour the idea of the party governing
in coalition with other parties.
Is that something that you think, an idea that could fly?
As I've said, the ANC has always accommodated
the role of smaller...
But an actual coalition government is the thought here.
There's a coalition government, as I was concluding on that
point, we have always governed with them,
with the smaller parties.
From time to time, you will find the leader
of the IFP at some stage.
Mr Buthelezi also played a role in government,
but the ANC believes that they must be a leading
party, which is the governing party, which is always the ANC.
In the metros in our country, like the city of Johannesburg,
the commercial hub, which is the capital city,
Nelson Mandela metro, it has proven that coalition
government are not yet the way in our country.
Our democracy has not yet matured to the level
where coalition governments can be one that is working.
It will be worse at the national level where you can
just have a situation almost like a yo-yo government.
OK.
So we are of the view that we must continue
to have a leading party, which is the ANC, to constitute
government so that there is a stable democracy
and also a stable path towards economic growth.
You mentioned Buthelezi there.
Of course that's Mangosuthu Buthelezi
of the Inkatha Freedom Party.
Finally and briefly, Ronald Lamola, Justice Minister
in South Africa, you want to be elected Cyril Ramaphosa's
deputy next month at the ANC party meeting and that
would put you in pole position to run for president in 2029.
Do you believe you have what it takes to lead
the nation of South Africa?
Yes, I do.
Um, I am a person who grew up in a farm, in this country,
who, as a child of farm workers, who also went
on to acquire higher education from such an underprivileged
background, who also practised law, who believes
in the constitution of the country.
I have also been privileged now to be the Minister of Justice,
who has been responsible for the resetting of state
institutions, aimed to support our constitutional democracy,
like the NPA, which are now able to function free,
without any fear or favour or prejudice or interference
from anyone, whom we have given support in terms of resources
to appoint a number of capable and competent people
to work in regards to crime and corruption,
and also to provide them the necessary resources.
So I do believe that I can...
I can contribute to the development or to
the continuous development of our constitutional
democracy.
Ronald Lamola, Justice Minister in South Africa, thank you very
much indeed for coming on HARDtalk from Pretoria.