就在这儿 This is it.
我站在一个特殊的地点 I'm standing on the very spot
许多基督徒相信世界末日将会降临 where many Christians believe the world will come to an end.
它叫米吉多 It's called Megiddo.
启示录预言 And it's the place that the Book of Revelation says
耶稣基督将会在此降临人世 Jesus Christ will come down to
终结世界并拯救信他的人 to end the world and save the people who believe in him.
启示录写到 Now when Revelations was written,
只有上帝有能力终结这世界 only God had the capacity to end the world,
但现在人类也有，因为十分不幸的是 but now man does too, because unfortunately,
早于人类想出如何变得更合理 before man figured out how to be rational
更和平之前，他先想出了核武器 or peaceful, he figured out nuclear weapons
还有如何制造一场灾难性的污染 and how to pollute on a catastrophic scale.
如果说有一件事比“预言”更让我讨厌的话 And if it's one thing I hate more than prophecy,
那就是不言自明的预言 it's self-fulfilling prophecy.
当你在搜寻幸福时 Sometimes in your search for happiness,
你思考人生的意义 you ponder the meaning of your life.
我是谁？我从何而来？ Who am I? How did I come to be?
死亡，然后呢？ Death, and then what?
我确信而坦诚得认为 I certainly honestly believe
宗教有碍于 religion is detrimental
人类的进步 to the progress of humanity.
你知道，这只是在销售一种看不见的商品 You know, it's just selling an invisible product.
这太容易了 It's too easy.
这些关于你死后会怎样的问题 These questions about what happens when you die,
把人们吓坏了 they so freak people out
于是他们就编造各种故事 that they will just make up any story
然后坚信不疑 and cling to it.
你知道，他们所说的 You know, things that they know
不可能是真的，只是那些人 can't be true, people who are otherwise
在各方面都很正常的 so rational about everything else,
然后，他们相信 and then they believe that
在星期天他们正喝着 on Sunday they're drinking the blood
一个二千岁上帝的血 of a 2,000-year-old God.
我不能，有些不谐调的东西在骚扰我的脑子 I can't... that's a dissonance in my head.
我不能…我必须说明真相 I can't... I have to find out.
我必须说明真相，我必须试一试 I just have to find out. I have to try.
这是橄榄山，这是耶稣的足迹 This is the Mount of Olives. This is Jesus's footprints.
屁股都冻掉了 We're here freezing our ass off.
在这个台上，有没有谁 Is there anybody on the stage that
- 不相信进化论？ - 是的 - does not believe in evolution? - Yeah.
快快快 Hurry hurry hurry.
- 我喜欢我的帽子 - 你看起来也不错 - I like my hat. - You look good too.
欢迎来到圣经之国！ Welcome to Bible Country!
“圣母诞生地”？ "Birthplace of the Virgin Mary"?
我相信，上帝希望每个人都是自由的 I believe that God wants everybody to be free.
这就是我所相信的 That's what I believe,
也是我外交政策的一部分 and that's one part of my foreign policy.
比尔，小心 Bill, watch out.
老兄，我会觉得惭愧？ Boy, do I feel cheap.
我要感谢上帝，给我如此恩典 I want to thank God for just blessing me so much.
音乐是一种神的祝福 Music has been a blessing from God.
感谢耶稣！ Thank you, Jesus!
你需要圣灵的灌肠… You need a Holy Ghost enema right up your rear end!
档案在五楼您看到窗帘的地方 The archives are there on the fifth floor where you see the curtains.
把这个拿开 Yeah, put that away now. Put that away.
如果你们看我的单人脱口秀节目 If you look at my stand-up
从大约80年代…到… from like the '80s... that era...
90年代初 early '90s,
我谈论宗教，但我从来没有质疑上帝 I talked about religion, but I'm not ever questioning God.
我只是拿一些事来开玩笑 I'm just making fun about things
关于宗教…割礼 in the religion... circumcision.
割礼，我的意思是，若我有幸作为 Circumcision... I mean, I would've loved
第一批听到它的人 to have been there for the first people to hear about this.
现在我们已经习惯了这点，但你知道，我的意思是 We're used to it now, but you know, I mean,
我敢肯定当摩西想出这个注意 I'm sure when Moses came down with this idea,
一定有一个人出来说： there had to be one guy going,
“让我们是把事情直直地搞清楚” "Let me get this straight."
这只是温和地嘲笑 It was just a gentle poking fun at Him.
几乎像我烤了他 It's almost like I'm roasting Him.
我母亲是犹太教，我父亲是天主教，这是事实 My mother is Jewish and my father is Catholic. That is the truth.
我的教育是天主教式的 I was raised Catholic formally,
我不得不说，犹太思维会出现 although I must say the Jewish mind comes out
即使是在天主教环境里，我给你一个例子 even in the Catholic system. I'll give you an example.
我们经常进行忏悔 We used to go into confession
而我带上我的律师 and I would bring a lawyer in with me.
你知道 You know.
原谅我，爸爸，我错了 Bless me, Father, for I have sinned.
我想你们知道Cohen先生 I think you know Mr. Cohen.
那么，让我展示一些照片 So let me get out some pictures.
这是我 There's me.
这可不是一个小犹太人的成长过程 We weren't brought up Jewish.
我甚至不知道我有另一种文化 I didn't even know we had that side,
十足的天主教式 so it was very Catholic.
每逢星期日，我们都去教堂 We went to church every Sunday,
我不愿解下那枪 but I wouldn't take off the gun
当我回想往事 and really when I think back,
发现这些和我的生活都不相干 it wasn't relevant to my life.
超人是有关系的，还有棒球 Superman was relevant and baseball.
我的家庭中 We had this family
一个是犹太教徒 where one person was Jewish
三个是天主教徒 and the other three were Catholic.
这儿写着“一个星期天的中午，秋66年” Now there it says "A Sunday noon, fall '66,"
我们一定刚刚从教堂回来 so we must've just gotten back from church,
因为我穿着红色的衣服 'cause I'm in a red suit
你在掐这条狗 and you're choking the dog.
我猜想我们从教堂回家，并和你拍了这照片 And I guess we got home from church and took a picture with you.
我从来没有问你 It never occurred to me to say,
“你为什么不去教堂？” "Why didn't you go to church?"
妈妈… Mom...
我们属于什么教会？ what church do we belong to?
我从来不记得 I don't remember this ever coming up.
你也从来没有和我们一起去教堂 Of course you didn't go to church with us.
没有，我们家从来没有讨论过这个问题，从来没有 No, we never had a family discussion about it, never.
我们家从来没有讨论过这个问题 We never had a family discussion about that.
每个家庭都有些不完美 Every family is dysfunctional.
所以你觉得既然如此不是你的信仰 So you thought even this, which wasn't your religion,
不如没有信仰 was better than no religion.
好吧，即使如此也没什么不好 Well, even this only told you good things...
I thought.
难道你们当初走到一起只是一场令人羞耻的婚姻？ But it's just so shamelessly invented as they go along.
- 随你怎么说 - 有人… - We can say that now. - Was anyone...
当我们离开教会的时候，我13岁 When we quit the church, I was 13,
我非常的高兴，没有任何特殊理由 and I was of course thrilled, but not for any ideological reason.
我只是激动，因为我讨厌教堂 I was just thrilled 'cause I hated church.
它是如此吓人，如此无聊 It scared me. It was boring.
我不得不在周日站起来… I had to get up on Sunday.
你知道，当时我13岁 I was 13.
我不会崇拜任何 I would've worshiped anything that could've allowed me
不能让我手淫得更爽…的东西 to masturbate even more than I was masturbating
给我个女孩也行，这样的上帝绝对会让我崇拜不已 or get a girl. That god I would have definitely worshipped.
你记得为什么 Why do you remember
爸爸不再去教堂做礼拜了？ Dad stopped going to church?
我们曾节育 We used birth control,
但教会反对节育 and the church frowned on birth control.
认为那是最大的罪过 That was the biggest sin
- 你们绝不能犯 - 对，那将… - you could ever commit. - Right, that would...
我想可能是那样，他从来告诉过我 I think that was possibly... he never said it to me.
后来他再没回去过，我们没有一个人回去过 And he never went back. None of us ever did.
所以现在我们没有信仰 So now that we don't believe,
从哪儿… where did...
没人说过我们没信仰啊 Nobody said we don't believe.
我们只是不信仰天主教 We don't believe in Catholicism.
好吧，那我们现在信仰什么？ Right, but what do we believe in now?
来吧，你是我的母亲，教导我吧 Come on. You're my mother, instruct me.
我不知道答案 I don't know the answer to that.
这就是我的答案 That's my answer.
我们走一些乡间小路 We'll take some back roads to see
- 可以看些有趣的东西 - 乡间小路… - some interesting stuff out here. - Take some back roads.
我们正向罗利走，对不对？ We are heading toward Raleigh, right?
噢，是啊，兄弟，你不这么认为？ Oh, yeah, man, can't you feel it?
我来到这儿 Do I stand up here? So as I was going here,
只是草草记下几个闪过脑海的问题 I just jotted down a few questions that came to my mind.
你们是否曾经有很多疑惑 Are you ever bothered by many things
见于基督教，却不见于圣经？ that are in Christianity that are not in the Bible?
像原罪 Like original sin.
圣灵感孕 Immaculate conception.
圣母受胎这件事仅仅记载于两本福音书…教皇… The virgin birth is only in two of the Gospels... popes.
你们有没有担心这些事情并非来自其创立者 Are you worried that these things came not from the founders,
写这书的人，是从… the people that wrote this book, but from...
当然这是无可争辩的…但作为人 and this is indisputable... but from men,
作为人类的后来者 from human beings who came after?
我说的人是指长着鸡鸡的人 And when I say men, I mean people with penises.
如果你想寻找科学的证明 If you wanna go back to scientific proof,
我想还是去找裹尸布或者其他什么… I think it was determined the shroud or whatever that was
我不会和你纠缠不清… went around a while back... I didn't get involved.
- 耶稣裹尸布？ - 他们对血液进行了采样 - Shroud of Turin? - They took blood samples from it,
发现它是有男性特征的女性血液 and it was female blood with a male figure.
好吧，唯一可能的解释就是 Okay, the only possible way that could happen was
圣灵使玛丽受孕 that the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary
所以这血只可能是女性的血 because it would've been female blood
因为这血只在圣母的身体里流动过 because it would've been the only blood flowing through her.
- 这是关于信仰的事 - 但是，为什么信仰就是好？ - It's a faith thing. - But why is faith good?
为什么要相信一些没有证据的东西？ Why is believing something without evidence good?
我不喜欢这些 I don't like the way this thing's going.
我不知道这个纪录片拍的是什么 I don't know what this documentary's supposed to be,
但我不喜欢你说的东西 but I don't like where you're going.
你开始质疑我的上帝 You start disputing my God,
你一定出了问题，我不知道你… and you got a problem. I don't know what you...
我要离开这儿，你做你想做的，但我要离开这儿 I'm outta here. You do what you wanna do, but I'm outta here.
- 我只是问问题 - 好的，没事 - I'm just asking questions. - Okay, no problem.
当我看到我所看到的，我知道上帝的存在 When I've seen what I've seen, I know there's a God.
你无法改变我的想法，任何人都无法改变我的想法 You can't change my mind. Nobody can change my mind.
我行走了30年，作为一个撒旦教的牧师 I walked for 30 years as a Satanist priest.
在我成长过程中，我是个撒旦信徒 From the time I grew up, I was in Satanism.
在过去六年中，我是个撒旦信徒 For the last six years, that I was into Satanism,
我是一个撒旦教的神父，好吗？ I was a Satanist priest, okay?
- 真正的撒撒旦信徒？ - 是的，真正的撒旦信徒 - Real Satanism? - Yes, real Satanism.
吸毒成瘾，经营娼妓 Being addicted to drugs, and running prostitutes
还有女人，还有任何与之相关的事 and the women and everything that goes with that.
我揣着大把的钱在口袋里四处游荡 I walked around with rolls of money in my pocket.
当我被拯救，我放弃了所有的一切 I gave all that up when I got saved.
当那个家伙说：“是啊，我过去吸毒… When the guy said, "Yeah, I used to do drugs.
我过去搞女人…”我在想… I used to have women," and I'm thinking,
- “您的问题出在…” - 对 - "And your problem was?" - Right.
让我问你一个问题： Let me ask you this question:
假设我对你错，当如何？ What if we're right and you're wrong?
我们笃而行之，而你没有 We gonna make it and you ain't.
如果你行善只是为了拯救你自身 If you're being good just to save your ass
仅仅因为，“喔，可能真的是这样” just because, "Ooh, they might be right
我愿意加倍下注担保 and I just want to double down here
当我来到天国之门 and make sure that when I get up to the pearly gates,
圣彼得不会对我说 that St. Peter doesn't say to me,
“对不起，混蛋，你选择了错误的信仰 'Sorry, asshole, you had the wrong religion.
享受地狱吧，再见” Enjoy Hell, buh-bye."'
这可不是一个好理由，你明白这一点 That's not a good reason, and you know that.
来吧，相信耶稣，你会失去什么？ Come on, believe in Jesus. What do you have to lose?
这就像乐透彩票 It's like the lotto.
如果你不玩，您就不会被拯救 You can't get saved if you don't play.
是的，你可能是对的，虽然我不认为这很可能 Yeah, you could be right. I don't think it's very likely,
但，的确，你可能是对的，因为我的大义是我不知道 but, yes, you could be right, because my big thing is I don't know.
这就是我的传教 That's what I preach.
我传福音：我 不 知 道！ I preach the gospel of I don't know!
我想这就是我所宣扬的…毫无疑问 I mean that's what I'm here promoting... doubt.
- 这就是我的商品 - 对 - That's my product. - Right.
其他人都在销售确定性，我不 The other guys are selling certainty, not me.
我带着疑问站在街角 I'm on the corner with doubt.
柯林斯博士 So, Dr. Collins,
你是一位非常非常杰出的科学家 you are a brilliant brilliant scientist,
人类基因组计划的带头人 the head of the Human Genome Project.
现在有个如此令人费解的问题是，你 Now here's what's so puzzling is that you are
一个科学家… the one scientist...
一个著名科学家… the one famous scientist anyway...
同时也是一个笃信宗教的人，给我个解释吧 who's also religious. Explain that to me.
我认为，如果你看看证据 I would argue that if you look at the evidence,
基督存在的历史证据是无可辩驳的 the historical evidence of Christ's existence is overwhelming.
什么证据？ What evidence?
我从来没有听过有人说…有证据 I mean, I've never even heard anyone propose that there's evidence.
一直有证据，耶稣是存在的 There's been proof that there's a Jesus.
- 这已经得到证实 - 这还没有得到证实 - That's been proven. - That hasn't been proven.
你为什么这么认为？ How you figure that one?
当我读了新约全书 When I read the New Testament,
那些目击者的记录 it reads to me as the record of eyewitnesses
他们记下了他们所看到的东西 who put down what they saw.
你知道，他们不是目击者 You know they weren't eyewitnesses.
- 他们近似目击者 - 不… - They were close to that. - No.
近二十年中的众多目击者 Within a couple of decades of eyewitnesses.
好吧，那它们在理论上是否站得住脚？ - Okay. - Would that stand up in a laboratory
有没有确信无疑的证据 as absolute foolproof evidence
证明确实发生了什么事？ that something happened?
您在设立“证明”的标准 You are setting up a standard for proof
而我认为这是个几乎无法达到的标准 that I think would really be an almost impossible standard to meet.
没有任何福音书告诉我们，他做这些事时，是一名年轻男子 No gospel tells us what he was doing when he was a young man.
我们看到一个婴儿耶稣 You know, we see Jesus as an infant
然后，我们拿起另一个故事时，他30岁 and then we kind of pick up the story when he's 30.
也许耶稣还是个笨拙的少年… I think Jesus was probably an awkward teenager...
Jewfro，不善运动 big Jewfro, bad at sports.
我在这里！ (Jewfro) Here I am!
我们拥有的所有记录都是福音书 The records we have are all gospels.
福音不是历史 Gospels are not history.
福音作者从来没有见过耶稣，圣保罗也没有 Gospel writers never met Jesus, neither did St. Paul.
没有人见到过耶稣 No one who wrote about Jesus ever met him.
你怎么解释古代先知的事 How can you go back into the prophets
先知们的预言如此准确… and the prophets specifically specifies that certain things...
首先 Well, first of all,
新约在后，旧约在前，你同意吗？ the New Testament came after the Old Testament. We agree to that?
我同意，但是，这并不意味着任何东西… I agree to that, but that doesn't mean anything.
它意味着写了新约全书的人 All it means is the people that wrote the New Testament
先阅读旧约全书，然后让这些预言得以实现 read the Old Testament and then made the prophesies fit.
如果事情没有发生，他们不能使它实现 They can't make it fit if something didn't happen.
他们当然可以 Of course they can.
你在说圣经是编造的？ Then you're saying the Bible is fictitious?
- 对，我在这么说 - 不可能 - I am. - Can't be.
我在这么说 I am.
我们都知道，这些文本不相符 We do all know that those texts don't match.
是的，肯定的，你希望他们相符？ Yeah, sure. Would you expect them to?
这令我非常吃惊，这对整个故事来说非常重要 I'm surprised that things that are very important to the story
像童贞女受孕，并非在四篇福音中都有记载 like the virgin birth isn't in all four of them.
难道你没有预料到这种不一致之处，当你 Wouldn't you really expect that kind of discordance when you're
思考这些文本开始形成的过程？ thinking about the way in which these documents came into being?
但你想，如果你是其中一个基督传记的作者 But you'd think if you were one of Christ's biographers,
这将是一个不可舍弃的重要事件 that would be sort of an important thing not to leave out.
哦，上帝，差点忘了，他也是童贞女所生 Oh, God, he was also born of a virgin.
它们没有提到童贞女受孕 They don't notice the virgin birth.
这类事情，不论你是什么记者 You know, I think that is something if you were any sort of reporter
你都会放到故事中去 you'd put into the story.
哪有编辑看到这个故事会说：“是的，但… What editor looks at the facts and goes, "Yeah, but take out the thing
把童贞女受孕的事去掉，这并不有趣” about the virgin birth. That's not interesting."
我认为没有信仰 I think being without faith
是一种奢侈 is something that's a luxury
是一个人足够幸运地 for people who were fortunate enough
有一个幸运的生活 to have a fortunate life.
当你去监狱 You know, you go to prison
听到一个人说：“知道吗，朋友 and you hear a guy say, "You know what, buddy?
我在这里一无所有，除了基督” I got nothing but Jesus in here."
我完全理解这一点 I completely understand that.
我认为没有信念有时是一种奢侈 I think not having faith is a luxury sometimes.
当你蜷缩在一个掩体里，你可能有很多的信念，对吗？ If you're in a foxhole, you probably have a lot of faith, right?
- 嗯，嗯 - 因此，我明白 - Mm-hmm. - So I get that.
你们不是傻瓜，你们是聪明人 But you guys aren't dumb. You're smart people.
聪明人怎么可以… How can smart people...
怎么可以相信说谈到蛇… how can they believe in the talking snake,
人类曾活到900岁…童贞女受孕… people living to 900 years old and the virgin birth?
你们也知道，这是我的疑问 And you know, that's my question.
你们有你们自己的疑问 You guys have your own questions.
为我祈祷吧 Pray for me.
父啊，奉耶稣基督的名和圣灵的能力 Father, in the name of Jesus and by the power of the Holy Spirit,
现在我们向你祈求，主啊，我们将比尔交托于你，全能的父 we ask right now, Lord, as we lift up Bill to You, Father,
您能够解答他的疑惑，而我们不能 that You can answer his questions that we can't answer.
天父，我们现在感谢你给予这机会 Father, we thank You right now for the opportunity
就在今天 that has come today,
我们可以发表自己以及聆听别人的见解 that we may voice our opinions and hear others.
主啊，所以我们请求你 So we ask You, Lord, to touch
以耶稣基督之名，现在去触摸和感受智慧 and feel wisdom right now in the name of Jesus.
以耶稣基督之名，感恩不尽，阿门 And we thank You for it in Jesus's name, amen.
感谢你们表现的像基督一样，而不仅仅是像基督徒一样 Thank you for being Christlike, and not just Christian.
好吧，嘿，我的钱包！ Okay. Hey, my wallet!
开玩笑的 No, I'm kidding.
你看到这么多好人试图将它联系到 You see so many nice people trying to make it about
一些好事 something good
然而，事实上，教会不仅仅是黑暗 and yet it turns into not just corrupt,
简直暗无天日 but, like, fucking-little-kids corrupt
焚烧活人… and burning-people-alive cor...
真他妈邪恶 I mean, really evil shit.
我希望看到一万人 I'd like to see 10,000 people
给一万美元 give $10,000.
签下您最大额的支票，并寄给我们 Write your biggest check and send it in.
我们对人们的社会福利，有足够的信心，兑现1000美元的承诺！ We got people on welfare that's got enough faith to make a $1,000 vow
- 并支付它！ - 让我恢复青春吧，主啊！ - and paying it! - I want to be in the green, Lord!
我所要说的，是天启 What I'm about to say is revelation.
我把它做成了DVD，我做成了DVD I got it on DVD. And I have it on DVD.
而你需要得到它，哈利路亚！ And you need to get this. Hallelujah!
哈利路亚！ Hallelujah!
神父，打给我的？ Reverend. Is that what I call you?
不，是打给我的…医生 No, just call me... doctor.
- 医生？ - 是啊 - Doctor? - Yeah.
好吧，医生，首先，我必须告诉你，当我听说 All right, Doc. First of all, I have to tell you, when I heard that
你是Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes的成员 you were in Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes,
我想“就是他了” I was like, "That's my man."
这很有意思，歌词 And it's funny, because that lyric
可以阐述教义 can be interpreted religiously.
《如果你现在还不知道我》，对吗？ "If you don't know me by now." Right?
你一定想到了这一点 I mean, you must've thought of that.
这歌是一首白金歌曲 The song did go platinum.
Teddy Pendergrass主导了这首歌 Teddy Pendergrass, who led the song,
当他只有十岁的时候就被任命为牧师 he was ordained a minister when he was 10 years old.
当你说到一个十岁的孩子被任命为牧师，你觉得这对于宗教来说，严肃吗？ What do you think it says about religion and how serious it is if you can be a minister when you're 10?
这之间应该有一个对照 But there is a comparison to be made between
在音乐明星，摇滚明星 musical stars, rock stars
与宗教人士之间，他们往往都穿着 and religious figures. They very often both dress
- 非常考究的服装… - 嗯，嗯 - in elaborate costumes... - Mm-hmm.
…来取得人们的注意 ...that get people's attention.
在集会中的这些人 People in a congregation
应该知道所有配备都是花钱的 must know that the outfit was financed
而这似乎并没有影响人们捐赠的心情 by their donations, and it doesn't seem to bother them.
我总是穿的很好 I always dress well.
喔！这是鳄鱼的？ I see! Are those gators?
这是…蜥蜴 Those are lizards.
- 蜥蜴？ - 是的 - Lizards? - Yes.
- 他们怎么跑？ - 他们不跑，他们爬 - What do they run? - They don't run. They crawl.
我看到你戴了很多…闪闪的 And I see you got a lot of bling.
我喜欢黄金，人们希望你有个好形象 I like gold. The people want you to look well.
皮条客就是这么说他们的女人的 That's what pimps say about their women.
曾经有一个历史上最大的皮条客 I was told by one of the greatest pimps that ever lived...
他的名字叫上帝… his name is called God...
他告诉我：如果你知道你得到了什么 that if you know what you got,
那么你没得到多少 then you ain't got much.
耶稣穿的非常好 Jesus dressed very well.
哦，别这样 Oh, come on.
- 圣经上哪里写的？ - 等等 - Where is the Biblical evidence? - Wait a minute.
当他出生时，他们送给他黄金 When he was born, they brought him gold.
他们送给他黄金，他不是个穷人 They brought him gold. He was not poor.
我印象里的耶稣是一个男人 So my image of Jesus as a man
他被穷人所拥护 who championed the poor and walked around
装束简单，这不对吗？ in simple garb, that's wrong?
亚麻布，亚麻细布 It was linen. It was fine linen.
- 真的吗？ - 是啊 - Really? - Yeah.
但是，耶稣不断传道反对富人 But Jesus constantly preaches against rich people.
圣经并不会反对富有 The Bible does not speak against being rich.
- 耶稣会，显而易见 - 不不 - Jesus does. Very plainly. - No no.
耶稣非常非常地反对富人 Jesus was very very against the rich.
他从没传道说应变得贫困，‘心灵空虚的人有福了’，因为… He never preached against being poor. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for...
不，他传道反对富人 No, he preached against being rich.
不不不，他说，这是更好地为富人… No no no, he said that it's better for a rich man...
富人进… than a rich man to enter...
‘富人进天国比骆驼穿针眼还难’ It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom.
好吧，但现在像房子、汽车 Okay, but now things like houses and cars
衣服、金钱 and clothes and money,
这些东西出现的原因是 they come as a result
我追求上帝为先 of my seeking God first.
我不记得 I don't remember that
新约里有明确的… in the New Testament specifically.
但它存在，我记得 But it's there. I remember it.
住房、汽车 The houses, the cars
和衣服，他们会出现 and the clothes, they'll come.
是啊，金钱来了，发生了 Yeah, money comes, money happens, you know.
好吧，金钱到了你身上是因为它们被决定给予你 Well, money happens for you because they're giving it up to you.
而并不是你被决定得到他们 You're not giving it up to them.
让我澄清是非 Let me set the record straight.
我没有接受教堂的报酬 I do not receive a salary from the church.
我没有拿教堂给予的报酬 I do not take a salary from the church.
- 你直接从罐子里拿… - 不不不 - You take it right out of the pot. - No no no.
这是一个多么强大的位置 It's such a powerful position.
你把握了 I mean, you hold people's
人们最高的希望和梦想在你掌中，真的 greatest hopes and dreams in the palm of your hand, really.
一些年轻女人肯定对您一见倾心 Certainly, some of the young women must get a crush on you.
可能吧，我也会这样 Probably. I would too if I was out there.
如果我是一个女人，我也可能对自己有好感… If I was a woman, I'd probably have a crush on me, too.
我们在此打住，当这是真的 That's keepin' it real.
我要在关于女人这方面劝告其他年轻男子，因为我也曾经历过 Now I can advise other young men about women, because I've been there.
有个年轻男子对一个女人爱得发狂 I had a young man who was about to go crazy over a woman.
几乎要自杀，你知道吗？ He was about to kill himself, you know?
我说，“你应该对上帝怀有这样的激情” I said, "That kind of passion, you should have for God."
我说“把激情转向上帝，看看会发生什么吧” I said, "Turn that to God and see what happens."
圣保罗，打个比方，我知道你将自己与他相比 St. Paul, for example, whom I know you compare yourself to.
人们都这么做 People do.
他在平时 But he famously only wore on his back
只穿自己的衣服 the clothes that he owned.
- 我是否可以假设… - 他总是四处奔波 - Should I assume that this is... - He was always on the run.
这是您唯一一套2000美元的西服？ This is your only $2,000 suit?
做了这套西服给我的先生 The gentleman who made this suit for me
拥有一家服装店 owns a clothing store.
Kane先生，你在吗？ Mr. Kane, you in the house?
我得到这衣服的价格是… The prices that I get my clothes for...
- 你知道，在这个领域很有福的 - 是的，当然 - you know, I'm blessed in that area. - Yes, you are.
我比所有过去的日子都更有福了 I'm more blessed than I've ever been all the days of my life.
服装店的老板是一个穆斯林，我是从伊斯兰教走过来的 And the owner is a Muslim, which... I came out of Islam.
我知道，这非常有趣，您现在是一个基督徒了 I know, I think it's very interesting that you're a Christian now,
当你还是穆斯林，当得到你的衣服 you were a Muslim and when you get your clothes,
你买下它们，穿成一个犹太人 you buy them like a Jew.
开始 And action!
没错…我身后就是曾经的双子城 That's right... behind me and above me is the original Twin Cities,
所多玛和蛾摩拉（罪恶之都） Sodom and Gomorrah.
很显然，这是非常邪恶的地方 Apparently, it was a pretty wicked place.
有多邪恶？ How wicked?
那么我只想告诉你，在蛾摩拉发生了什么 Well let's just say that what happened in Gomorrah,
跟我来 stayed in Gomorrah.
直到上帝听说了它 That is until God got wind of it,
于是他派出了两个天使进行调查 so he sent two angels to investigate.
天使来到一所房子 Now the angels went to the house
一个很虔诚的人住在…他叫罗德 of the one godly man in town... Lot.
城镇居民们想要强奸天使 And the townspeople tried to rape them.
Now Lot,
由于罗德不希望他的小镇落得个… not wanting his town to get the reputation
强奸天使的名声 as the kind of place that would rape angels,
他把自己的女儿，供给那群暴民强奸 offered up to the mob his own daughters to rape.
他是这个小镇里的一个好人 And he was the good guy in town.
这使我有这样的疑问： Which brings me to this question:
如果我不得不宣誓 If I ever had to swear an oath,
为什么我要把我的手 why would I want to put my hand
放在詹姆斯王的圣经上？ on the King James Bible?
我想我可以在“利克詹姆斯”的圣经里找到更多的美德 I think I could find more morality in the Rick James Bible.
上帝恨“玻璃” God hates fags.
宪法不允许同性恋 The Constitution does not grant to homosexuals
进行鸡奸 the right to perform sodomy.
- 我是一个僧侣 - 僧侣 - I'm a monk. - A monk.
圣方济各会 Franciscan.
你怎么看同性恋？ What do you think of homosexuality?
你是否认为…圣经是反对它的？ Do you think that's... the Bible is against it.
不，圣经并不反对 No, the Bible is not against it.
圣经不反对同性恋？ The Bible's not against homosexuality?
如果你生来就是同性恋，你应保持自我 If you are born homosexual, you are to stay there.
- 你应保持开心 - 但是，这是圣经上说？ - You have to be happy. - But that's what the Bible says?
这是圣经之意所说的，是的 What the Bible means to say, yeah.
哦，“圣经之意所说” Oh, what the Bible means to say!
真是一本好书 Now that's a good book.
它宣扬着磐石般的真相 It preaches the rock-solid truth.
你们是“玻璃”！ You are faggots!
我不讨厌他们，上帝讨厌他们 I don't hate them. God hates them.
- 嘿，比尔 - 您好吗？很高兴见到您 - Hey, Bill. - How are you? Nice to meet you.
好的，好的 Okay. Okay.
当然，我们在这里的原因是你是个… So of course, the reason why we're here is because you're...
我想我会说，前同性恋 I guess we would say, ex-gay.
你曾是同性恋 You used to be gay
然后和一个曾是女同性恋的人结婚了 and then you married someone who used to be a lesbian.
有了三个孩子，我猜他们还无法明白 And you have three children, and I guess the jury's out on them.
就像其他的婚姻一样… Okay, and would you say it's just like any other marriage
14年来…你从来没有做爱？ of 14 years... you never have sex?
哦，有趣，哈哈，明白了 Oh, funny. Ha ha. Got that.
我不把自己归类为前同性恋，你知道 I don't classify myself as ex-gay, you know?
我是一个异性恋者，曾涉及过 I'm a heterosexual guy who dealt
一些同性恋的事 with some homosexuality.
好吧，那些来到这里的人 Okay, so the people who come here are people
期待能你做你曾做过的事 who are wanting to do what you did.
希望你能改变他们的生活，带给他们异性恋的生活 They want to reform their life and lead a heterosexual life.
但我老实告诉你，现实是，很多人来到这里 But I will be honest with you. The reality's a lot of people come here
回去后马上又变成原来的样子 and go right back into whatever they came from.
- 因为他们是同性恋！ - 我相信这的罪孽 - Because they're gay! - I believe that it's sin.
不好意思，你有没有觉得这是，并非有意的双关…大错特错 (ass-backwards)？ Excuse me, but don't you have it, no pun intended, ass-backwards?
意思？ Meaning?
意思是同性恋… Meaning homosexuality
是一种自然发生的现象 is something that occurs in nature.
我在看小鸟，但我更喜欢看你 I was out bird watching, but I'd rather watch you.
你为什么不到这边来做一些… Why don't you come over and get some?
人类写出了圣经 Man is who wrote the Bible.
自然造就了同性恋 Nature made gay people.
没有人生来就是“同志”没有科学或… Nobody's born gay. There's no scientific or...
真的吗？你见过Little Richard吗？ Really? Have you ever met Little Richard?
我们看上帝创造世界，“正常秩序是什么？” We can look at creation and say, "What's the normal order?"
男子有阴茎，女人有阴道 A man has a penis. A woman has a vagina.
让我们来吧 Let's just be blunt.
没有科学资料证明任何人… There's no scientific data that proves
不存在同性恋基因 that anyone is... there's no gay gene.
你甚至发现了同性恋基因？ And you also discovered the gay gene?
是的 Yes.
这些都来自于圣经，您相信… This is all coming from the Bible which you believe...
对的…那是上帝的话 - Right. ...to be the word of God.
- 是的 - 所有的禁令 - I do. - All of the proscriptions
针对同性恋的，都来自于旧约全书 against homosexuality come from the Old Testament.
关于同性恋耶稣从来没有说过一个字 Jesus never said a word about homosexuality.
如果真的重要，为什么他从来不提？ And if it's so important, why didn't he ever bring it up?
我们可以透过大量的细节 We could pick lots of little things
但他从没特别得提过 that he didn't specifically talk about.
- 但这是一件重要的事 - 让我先停止谈话 - But this is a big thing. - Let me stop this whole thing.
我不知道你的纪录片是拍什么的 You know, I'm not sure what your documentary is about,
但如果它要反驳上帝的话 but if it's to basically refute the word of God,
那么我对这个采访不感兴趣，好吗？ then I'm not interested in doing your interview, okay?
- 这个，我… - 我认为 - Well, l... - I think that
非常明显，你没有我同耶稣这样亲近 obviously you don't have the same relationship with Jesus Christ that I do.
但是，你对此有何解释：数百万数百万的人们 But what is your explanation for the millions and millions of people
遍布世界各地 around the world who are
- 过着同性恋生活… - 噢，没有这么多人 - leading homosexual lives... - Well, it's not millions.
…对于异性毫无感觉？ ...have no interest in anyone of the opposite sex?
难道他们只是为了气死耶稣而假装的？ Are they all faking just to piss off Jesus?
他们没有选择这样做，他们不希望这样做 They didn't choose this. They didn't desire it.
对啊，他们生来就是同性恋 Right, they were born gay.
不，他们并非天生如此 No, they weren't born that way.
这是因为他们自身的不安全感 It's because of the insecurity within theirselves.
穿着露臀皮裤出门更有安全感 It takes a lot of security to walk out of the house with assless chaps.
- 他们并不开心！ - 他们被叫做“玻璃” - They're not happy, most of them. - They're called gay.
他们用了这个词 They took the word.
其中一些人看起来自信而且兴奋 Some of them look positively thrilled.
不，他们完全无法 No, they are people who are really not complete
搞清他们是男人还是女人 in who they are as men or women.
对于一个基督徒来说，这是一个相当重大的判断 That's a pretty big judgment for a Christian.
- 这不是一个判断 - 这不是一个判断？ - It's not a judgment. - That's not a judgment?
你坐在这里告诉那些人说: That you are sitting here telling these people
“你们甚至不知道你们是不完整的， who you don't even know that they're incomplete
因为其他人讨厌你们” because they're not like you?
我的意思是，并非你怀疑他们是同性恋 I mean, it's not the people you suspect
他们就是同性恋 that are gay, that are gay.
像Ted Haggard牧师，这样的人，(一个反同性恋教会的领袖) People like the Reverend Ted Haggard...
‘道德的洁净胜于邪恶’ Moral purity is better than immorality.
…会在酒店房间里幽会男妓 ...who kept meeting homosexual prostitutes in a hotel room
进行同志性爱 and having gay sex with speed.
‘福音教会的成员拥有最好的性爱’ Evangelicals have the best sex life of any other group.
- ‘早安，杜安！’ - 他不是同性恋吗？ - Good Morning, Duane! - But he wasn't gay?
我已经回答过了 I already answered that.
我不相信任何人是同性恋 I don't believe that anybody is gay.
我不知道，但坦率地说，如果我看见你 I don't know, but honestly, if I just saw you
在酒吧或什么地方，我要说，不考虑失误的话… in a bar or something, I would say... and don't take this the wrong way...
我要说“是啊，我想那家伙是同性恋” I would say, "Yeah, I think that guy is gay."
你看起来很端正、很整洁，你知道的 You're good looking. You're neat, you know.
- 你看起来不像我 - 意思？ - You don't look like me. - Meaning?
含义… Meaning...
- 好吧，谢谢你 - 可以给你一个拥抱吗？ - All right, thank you. - Can I give you a hug?
- 好的！ - 我拥抱所有人 - Yes! - I hug everybody, so can I give you a hug?
- 谢谢 - 非常感谢你 - Thanks. - Thank you very much.
嘿，你没有变硬吧？ Hey, you didn't have a hard-on there, did you?
不，不可能 Nope, sorry. Can't do that.
That was good, though.
当我17岁时，我的初恋女友甩了我 When I was 17, my first girlfriend dumped me,
我感到从未有过的沮丧… and I was sad in a way I'd never been sad.
你知道，第一次被甩是最惨的 You know, your first dumping is the worst.
在那段时间，你很容易受伤害 And at that point, you're very vulnerable
被那些任何有联系的… to any sort of connection
你知道… with, you know...
我没有搞得像基督教一样 I didn't get like Jesus-religious,
但我真的认为有一种力量 but I did think a force out there
通过歌词或者什么东西在和我交流 was communicating to me through song lyrics or...
那会儿我对命理学很感兴趣 numerology I was very interested in for a while.
你说过那会儿，你在探索什么东西 You said you were groping for something at that time.
你知道，你创造一个假想的朋友，爱你 You know, you make up an imaginary friend who loves you,
同情你，为你打算 is sympathetic to you and has a plan for you.
最重要的是，他不一定需要爱我 It's much more important. He didn't have to love me, God,
只是他必须为我工作 He just had to be working for me.
你知道，他就像一个代理 You know, He's like an agent.
那么你是一个前犹太教徒 So you are an ex-Jew for Jesus.
对 That is correct.
是什么让你成为一个耶稣的追随者？ Now what made you to decide to be a follower of Christ?
它给你的生活带来了什么？ What brought Christ into your life?
在75年 Back in '75,
我去了密歇根州州立大学 I went to Michigan State University.
- 啊，2700美元 ？ - 是啊，很昂贵 - $2,700? - Yeah, it's pricey.
我很好奇没有这个孩子的玛丽亚值多少钱？ Boy, I wonder what Madonna without the child runs you.
那么，回到我的故事，我向上帝祈求 So getting back to my story, I could ask God
以耶稣的名义行事，我就会成功 to do things in the name of Jesus and they would happen.
我已经记不起每一个上帝所行的神迹 So I can't even recall all the little miracles He did,
但他向我证明他是真实的并且存在 but He proved to me that He was real and He was there.
如此神奇以至于你都不记得是什么了？ They were so miraculous and you can't remember what they were?
他们数量太多了，而且是一些小事情 There were so many of them and they were little things.
- 给我举个例子吧 - 一个例子我记得是 - Give me an example. - One example I can remember was
在一次聚会 I was at a party.
有一个家伙和犹太人一起为基督工作 There was a guy who was working with Jews for Jesus,
我问他，“我能喝些水吗？” and I asked him, "Can I get a drink of water?"
他说，‘这儿有一个玻璃杯… And he says, "You know what? Here's a glass,
用你的手举起来伸到窗外，并祈祷下雨吧’ stick your hand out the window and pray for rain."
我不喜欢他的态度 I didn't like the attitude.
我说好吧 I said okay,
我举起杯子伸到窗外，然后，倾盆大雨 and I stuck my hand out the window and it started pouring rain.
雨下得如此之大，聚会的人都无法回家了 Pouring so bad that people couldn't leave the party.
对我来说，这是一个奇迹，你不必相信 To me, that's a miracle. You don't have to believe it,
- 但我知道我和上帝之间… - 这很蹩脚 - but I know between me and God... - It is pretty lame.
- 但是，你请我… - 我请你说的，但我只是说 - But you asked. - I asked, but I'm just saying
- 这只是我对你回答的反应 - 这只是其中之一 - that's my reaction to your answer. - But that's just one of many things.
我一生，活在奇迹中 I live a life of miracles.
不，你只是活在这种世俗的巧合中 No, you live your life with the same sort of mundane coincidences
世界上每一个人都会遇到 that happen to everybody in the world.
它不像，你知道，如果下青蛙了 It's not like, you know, if it rained frogs,
我会说你有一个奇迹 I would say you had a point.
但是，下雨，雨停… But it rains, and it stops raining.
那么，你最后一次祈求在十秒之内下雨是什么时候？ Well, when was the last time you asked for rain and it starting raining within 10 seconds?
我不知道，我从没祈求过下雨 I don't know. I don't ever ask for rain.
即使我祈求下雨，而且真的开始下雨了 But if I asked for it really bad and it started to rain,
我不会认为这是我祈求的结果 I wouldn't think it was because I asked for it.
我会认为，因为有时候就会下雨 I would think because it sometimes rains.
上帝并不是那么忙 God is not that busy
忙到没有时间为你聆听 where He can't spend time listening to you
当你真的想要和他谈话，随时随地都可以 when you really want to talk to Him, anytime.
如果圣诞老人可以拜访世界上的每个烟囱 If Santa Claus can hit every house in the world
- 在一晚之内… - 我不相信圣诞老人 - in one night... - I don't believe in Santa Claus.
当然不会，那太荒谬了 Of course not, that's ridiculous. That's one man flying
一个人在世界各地飞来飞去，然后把礼物丢进烟囱里… all around the world and dropping presents down a chimney.
这太荒谬了，一个人在同一时间听所有人发牢骚，如是我想 That's ridiculous. One man hearing everybody murmur to him at the same time, that I get.
你知道还有什么，令我非常困惑吗？ And you know what else was very confusing to me?
我很清楚得记得 I remember vividly
圣诞老人 was Santa Claus
- 和耶稣 - 你对我们是那么生气 - and Jesus. - You were so mad at us.
- 噢，是啊 - 对你们生气，为什么？哦，当… - Oh, yes. - So mad at you, why? Oh, when...
当你发现根本没有圣诞老人 When you realized there was no Santa Claus.
还有当我发现根本没有耶稣 And then when I found out there was no Jesus,
我真是发火了 boy, was I pissed.
你说得如此肯定 You spoke before in certitude.
你百份百地确定当你死后 You're 100% sure that after you die,
你会去个好地方吗？ you'll go to a better place.
我知道 我将和主在一起，和耶稣在一起 I know I'll be with God. I'll be with Jesus.
那一定是个好地方？ And that's a better place.
即使是在垃圾筒里 Even if it was in a garbage can,
虽然我知道不可能，但即使如此 which I know it won't be, but even if it was,
只要能和耶稣在一起，对我来说，就是好的 just the fact that I'm with Jesus, to me, is good.
- 那一定是个好地方？ - 是个好地方 - It's a better place. - It's a better place.
那为什么你不自杀呢？ Then why don't you kill yourself?
因为我在人间还有使命 Because God still has a mission for me here.
哦，明白了 Oh, I see.
我想到了约拿 上帝给约拿一个使命 I'm thinking of Jonah. God sent Jonah on a mission.
从故事的哪部分开始 约拿住在一条鲸鱼肚子里？ When did the part of the story come when Jonah lived in the whale?
那是一条巨大的鱼 It was a great fish.
这是我最喜欢的荒唐故事之一 It's one of my favorite nonsense stories,
约拿，住在一条鲸鱼里 Jonah living inside of the whale.
而他们的回答永远是 And their answer unfailingly is
“圣经没有说那是鲸鱼，那是一条巨大的鱼” "The Bible doesn't say whale. It says big fish."
啊对，大鱼 Oh, yeah, big fish, that makes...
我很抱歉我在一条鲸鱼上纠缠，那是一条大鱼 I'm sorry I was obsessing on that it was a whale. It's a big fish.
当然你能在一条鱼肚子里住三天 Of course you could live for three days in a big fish.
金枪鱼 A tuna.
日本人经常这么干，他们有金枪鱼浴场 They do it all the time in Japan. They have tuna spas.
你进去三天，受到无微不至的服务，给你抹油… You go for three days. They pamper you, oils.
然后你从金枪鱼里出来，感觉棒极了 You come out of that tuna feeling fantastic.
你闻起来像脓包 You smell like pussy,
但是你感觉棒极了 but you feel fantastic.
一个人在鱼肚子里活了三天？ This man lived inside of a fish for three days?
奇迹般的，是的 Miraculously, yes.
史蒂夫，史蒂夫，史蒂夫 Steve, Steve, Steve.
你完全不相信奇迹 You don't believe in miracles.
- 那不代表奇迹不存在 - 当然不！ - That doesn't mean they don't exist. - Of course not!
我又不是个十岁的小孩 I'm not 10!
他住在鱼肚子里 He lived in a fish.
别这样 Come on.
你店里的东西可真是奇迹般地便宜，我必须告诉你，兄弟 Your bar on miracles is pretty low, I gotta tell you, bro.
好吧，不管怎么说 Well, whatever.
有两件事完全不符，那就是 Two things that are completely incompatible
耶稣所教的基督精神 are Christianity as Jesus taught it
- 和民族精神… - 对，没错 - and nationalism... - Right. Exactly.
…人民总是讲到上帝和祖国 ...and yet people always say God and country.
耶稣永远不会说… Jesus would never... you know,
那些虔诚的基督教徒… people who are such good Christians...
他们异口同声地说 in one breath you'll hear them say something like,
“我们必须先管好自己的事… "Well, you gotta take care of your own first.
我知道海外有人陷入了困境，但你必须先…” I know people overseas have trouble, but you gotta take"...
我从来没在耶稣的圣经上看到过这种说法 that is not a message I can ever see the Jesus in the Bible,
即使他心情不好，也不会这么说 even when he was in a bad mood, would say.
我会投圣经一票 I'm gonna vote Bible.
上帝的子民应该 It's time for God's people to come
从房子里出来、从教堂里出来 out of the closets, out of the churches
去改变美国！ and change America!
除非我和你们，按上帝的期望去做 Unless you and I do what God wants us to do,
否则上帝将离开我们，到其他国家去 he'll go to some other country.
上帝，原谅美国吧！ God, forgive America!
我想我必须说是的，因为我们的宪法 I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established
建立在美国作为一个基督教国家之上 the United States of America as a Christian nation.
当然，我们的钱上印着“我们信赖上帝” We have, of course, "In God We Trust" on our money.
参议院将会做出决议 The Senate will come to order.
神父带领参议院祈祷 The chaplain will lead the Senate in prayer.
这个国家怎么会变成一个基督教国家？ How did this country get to be a Christian nation?
我读过很多美国创立者的言论 I've read a lot of quotes from all the Founding Fathers.
很多言论明确的说 There are a lot of quotes that explicitly say
我们不是一个基督教国家 we're not a Christian nation.
杰斐逊有个很有意思的例子 And Jefferson's a particularly interesting case.
是不是他撇开新约，写了一本自己的圣经 Didn't he write his own Bible which divorced the New Testament
重新考虑了那些不必要的魔法 from what he considered the unnecessary magic,
还有那些花哨的东西？ bells and whistles?
他保留了福音 He took the Gospels,
去掉了耶稣所有的神迹 took out all of Jesus's miracles
去掉了所有耶稣关于神性的宣扬 and took out all of Jesus's statements that claimed divinity,
然后出版了一本新书 and put out a new book called "The Faith and Moral Teachings
名为《拿撒勒的耶稣关于信仰和道德的教义》 of Jesus of Nazareth."
我们往往非常崇拜这些 We tend to lionize these guys and think of them all
使徒国父这样的人物 as the 12 Apostles plus the Founding Fathers,
就好像他们是属于同一类的 like they're in the same club or something.
但事实上，这些人非常清楚 When in fact, these men understood very well
基督和美国，不是一回事 that there was a difference between being Christian and being American.
- 对 - 在杰斐逊的年代 - Right. - In Jefferson's age, fewer people went
人民并不怎么去教堂 to church less often.
你有没有觉得，很多人… Do you think that there are a lot of people
跟你想得一样，却不敢说出来？ who feel the way you do, but are afraid to speak out?
绝对的，开什么玩笑 Absolutely. Are you kidding?
是的，我认为有很多的少数派保持沉默 Yes, I think it is the great untapped minority
在这个国家 in this country.
一份最近的调查显示 In the last survey,
我记得是，有16%的美国人 I think it was 16% of Americans
说他们现在没有加入宗教团体 who now say they are absolutely unaffiliated
也不愿和宗教扯上关系 with any religion, don't want to be in a religion,
让宗教离我愿意一点！ just don't go near me with religion.
16%的人口 16% of the population is
可不是个小数字，它比犹太人都多 a huge minority. It's bigger than Jews,
比黑人、同性恋、美国枪支协会，都要多 blacks, homosexuals, NRA members,
我们知道很多人，通过游说 lots of people you could name who have lobbies
得到了他所期望的 that get everything they want
至少还在辩论之中 or are at least are in the debate.
你希望我这样侧坐着，还是面向他 You want me to kinda angle like this or straight ahead?
尽可能自然得朝向比尔 Just as natural as possible to Bill.
你形容自己是一个福音派基督教徒 So you've described yourself as an Evangelical Christian.
你在一个竞选广告里说：人生最重要的一课 You did a campaign ad where you said the most important lessons in life
来自于这边这本书：圣经 are in this book right here, meaning the Bible.
政治界的每个人都喜欢自夸有某种信仰 Everyone in politics likes to brag that they're a person of faith.
为什么信仰就是好？ Why is faith good?
信仰有一种 Faith has a way
软化人民的力量 of softening people.
例如：你看耶稣的教化，他是非常宽容的 For example, if you look at the teachings of Jesus, he's very forgiving.
他也说过：“人若不常在我里面， He also said, "If a man doesn't abide in me,
就像枝子丢在外面枯干 he is cast forth as a branch and withers,
人拾起来，扔在火里烧了” and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."
是的，然后呢？ Right. So?
作为一个基督徒，我相信 I do think, 'cause I'm a Christian,
基督是和谐之道 that Jesus is the way to be reconciled.
我相信，我们对这些故事的解读 And I do believe the actual literacy of that story.
将为上帝在末日的审判，提供依据 We'll let God sort out all the details of that on Judgment Day.
那你怎么看十诫？ What about the 10 Commandments?
很多政治人物都谈论十诫 So many politicians talk about the 10 Commandments.
它们真的是十条最… Are they really the 10 most
- 重要的道德… - 十条建议吧 - important moral... - Are these the 10 suggestions?
…十荐 The 10 recommendations?
这十条确实涵盖甚少 But it's not really a wide list of 10.
头四条 The first four are all
都是关于怎么礼拜上帝的，基本上只能说明这是个小气的上帝 about just worshipping God and basically that he's a jealous God,
他不希望你崇拜其他的神 and he doesn't want you to have any other gods.
唯一两条真正的法规 The only two that are really laws
是不准偷盗，不准杀戮 are don't steal and don't kill.
为什么最智慧的十条诫律 Why is this the wisest group of 10?
不包括禁止虐待儿童，不包括禁止酷刑拷问 It doesn't include child abuse. It doesn't include don't torture.
它不包括很多事…像强奸… It doesn't include a lot of things... rape...
如果今天我们列个戒条 that I think if we were making a list today,
这些都会包含其中 we would probably include.
今天的社会已经不一样了 Society is so different today
我们的文化在根本上改变了 and our culture is so radically different today.
这正是我要问的，我们在一个不同的文化里 That's what I'm asking. We're in a different culture.
你能想到什么是从青铜时代坚持至今的吗？ Can you think of anything else that we still cleave to from the Bronze Age?
好吧… Well...
基本上，世界上每个国家的法律都禁止杀人 Basically, murder is against the law in every country in the world.
如果没有宗教，就不会有此诫律吗 But wouldn't we have come to that even without religion?
难道人们不会聚集在一起，然后说 Don't you think people would have gotten together and said,
“让我们停止互相杀戮吧 "You know what? Let's not slaughter each other
- 让我们不要互相偷盗” - 我不知道 - and not take each other's stuff." - I don't know.
事实上以上帝的名义发生了更多的杀戮 There's been more killing in the name of "My God."
你或许认为，事情会自然而然 You think maybe sort of indigously
基于人的本性 or just by our DNA,
我们会明白杀戮是错的？ we somehow know that killing another person is wrong?
我不确定是不是该这么说 I'm not sure that that's the case.
是啊，难道一定需要个上帝来决定不应该互相杀戮？ Really, you need God to decide not to kill each other?
好吧，在原始时代 Well, you can look back at more primitive cultures,
持续不断的战争 and they were constantly at war.
我们现在处于工业化的现代国家 We are now, among industrialized, modern nations,
最虔诚的宗教国家 the most religious nation.
一个近期研究发现 A recent study found that
在一个包括32个国家的名单中 among 32 countries,
大多数国民怀疑进化论 more people in this country doubted evolution
唯一的例外，我记得，是土耳其 than any other country on that list, except, I think, it was Turkey.
在美国，我们有宗教自由 In the US, we have freedom of religion.
我想在那个名单中的大部分国家都有宗教自由 I think most of the countries on that list do have freedom of religion.
好吧，这很有意思 Well, that's interesting.
你相信进化论吗？ Do you believe in evolution?
你知道我…我不知道 You know my... I don't know.
科学界的意见是有一些分歧的 Clearly the scientific community's a little divided
特别在一些细节上 on some of the specifics of that and I understand that.
- 我不这么认为 - 不不…好吧… - I don't think they are. - No no... well...
我认为他们完全赞同 I think they pretty much agree.
我不知道这是怎么发生的 I don't know how it all happened.
我真的希望接受这种科学假定 I'm certainly willing to accept the scientific premise.
反正不可能会是…亚当和夏娃 It couldn't possibly have been Adam and Eve
五千年前和一条蛇的对话，不是吗？ 5,000 years ago with a talking snake and a garden, could it?
好吧…也许有可能 Well, it could've possibly been that.
别这样，看吧，这就是我的困惑 Come on. See, this is my problem.
你看，你是一个参议员 I mean, you're a senator.
你是万里挑一的少数几个… You are one of the very few people
真正支撑这个国家的人 who are really running this country.
我很担心说，支撑起我们国家的人… It worries me that people are running my country who think...
会相信一条蛇会说话 who believe in a talking snake.
进入参议院好像不需要通过智力测试 You don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the Senate, though.
当人们第一次进入创世博物馆 As you first come into the Creation Museum,
会有一种感觉 there's going to be a sense
“这真是一件伟大的事” of "This is something really big."
真是令人敬畏，令人惊叹 This is something awe-inspiring, something great here.
我们给怀疑者以回应 We can answer the questions of the skeptics
那些攻击圣经所载历史的人 that attack the Bible's history.
我们从这里开始 We admit that we start from the Bible here
教他们如何思考 to teach them how to think.
简而言之，我们在表达：圣经是真实的 Really, in a nutshell, we're saying, the Bible's true
从创世纪到启示录 from Genesis to Revelation.
建这所有地方花了大概2700万美元 We're building the whole place for about $27 million.
有很多人对我说 I have many people say to me,
“做为基督徒，你就不能接受进化论吗？” "As a Christian, can't you believe in evolution?"
我说“你的想法有问题，上帝创造了一个男人和一个女人” I say, "Well, you got a problem. God made a man and a woman."
如果你相信进化论，那女人就是人猿演变而来的 If you believe in evolution, the woman had to come from an ape woman.
好吧，但是你太丑了 All right, but you're so damned ugly.
这是我们叫做大厅的地方，很快，人们将看到 This is what we call the main hall here. Immediately, people see
人类与恐龙生活在一起 dinosaurs and people together, which is very different
这将区别于恐龙早已灭绝在… to the idea of the evolutionists who say dinosaurs died out
七千万年前，所以无法和人类生活在一起的说法 70 million ago or so, and so they didn't live with humans.
人们将在这儿看到机械恐龙 They see an animatronic dinosaur over here.
两只暴龙幼崽，还有两个小孩 Two animatronic baby T-Rexes and two animatronic children.
当他们来到这里，会有一种“激赞”的效果 It's basically just to give people a wow factor as they come in here.
如何有效地传播，你对圣经的信仰 How to share your faith effectively and Biblically,
怎样说服人们 to be able to reason with people,
从头到脚地接受你的信仰… learn to circumnavigate
or go around the person's intellect.
有很多人会说‘好吧，这只是我的信仰’ There's plenty of people who would say, "Well, it's just my faith."
但这对你来说不够，你说：不 But that's not good enough for you. You say, "No.
我们要从根本上，挑战科学 We can basically reconcile the science
用创世纪里的东西 with what's in Genesis."
我们这个机构…简单地说… We're an organization that... to put it in a nutshell...
就是告诉人们：圣经历史是真的 is telling people that the Bible's history is true,
它的历史从创世纪开始 its history beginning in Genesis.
科学家们压倒性地站在 Scientists line up overwhelmingly
争论的另一边 on one side of this issue. It would have to be
这将是一场对抗科学的庞大策划 an enormous conspiracy going on between scientists
所有国家，所有学科 of all different disciplines in all different countries
都已达成了一致 to have such a consensus.
这没有使你退却？ That doesn't move you?
不，完全没有。透过圣经来看 No, not at all, because from a Biblical perspective,
我了解为什么多数人不会认同真相 I understand why the majority would not agree with the truth.
人类是有罪的，人类反叛他的创造者 Man is a sinner. Man is rebelling against his creator.
所有科学家都是有罪的？ All these scientists are sinners?
当然… Well...
我们已经和很多宗教人士进行了交谈 We have been talking to so many religious people
很多人认为地球的年龄是五千岁 and many of them believe the earth is 5,000 years old.
如果你是个科学家，便无法接受这一点 If you're a scientist, you can't accept that.
你是最新的梵蒂冈天文台的主管 Now you recently were the director of the Vatican Observatory.
梵蒂冈天文学家 A Vatican astronomer.
这种措辞听起来就像“同性恋共和党人” It's one of those terms like "gay Republican"...
你知道，出乎你的意料 you know, you just don't expect it.
- 我不会回答这个问题 - 不不不，我不是问这个 - I'm not getting into that. - No no no, I'm not asking you to.
教会并非想要…你知道 It's not that the church has the idea, you know,
不是为了培养我们，好让我们进入太空 they're gonna train us up so we can be the first ones out there
给外星人施洗… to baptize those extraterrestrials
在摩门教的人做到之前 before the Mormons get at 'em.
原因很简单 The reason is simply
历史真相 historical facts.
比如，约翰保罗二世说：进化论 John Paul II, for instance, said evolution
对于新达尔文主义的意义已经不仅仅是个假说 in the neo-Darwinian sense is no longer a mere hypothesis.
他说了，写出来了 I mean, he said that. It's in writing.
我还是不理解这个说法的重要性 I still don't understand why it's important
人在地球上… for there to have to have been a situation on earth
和恐龙一同存在 where a man co-existed with dinosaurs.
只发生在《聪明笨伯》这卡通里… Only really in "The Flintstones"...
有人在谈论我？ Is someone talking about me?
…还有Raquel Welch的电影 ...and that Raquel Welch movie
人类是否和恐龙一同生活 does man ever co-exist with dinosaurs.
对你的救赎或道德来说，为何如此重要？ Why is that important for your salvation or your morality?
如果你相信那一边的言论 If you're saying this part over here,
“上帝在一天之内创造了陆地动物和人”都是假的 it says God made land animals and man on the same day is not true,
那最终我为什么要相信上帝其他的话？ then ultimately, why should I believe this bit over here?
基督的经文写于 The Christian Scriptures were written
大约公元前二千年 between about 2,000 years before Christ
至公元后二百年之间 to about 200 years after Christ.
而后 That's it.
现代科学，自伽利略以降 Modern science came to be with Galileo
历经牛顿，历经爱因斯坦 up through Newton, up through Einstein.
这就是我们所知的现代科学 What we know as modern science, okay,
在这段时间内 is in that period.
怎么可能有任何科学出现在圣经之中？ How in the world could there be any science in scripture?
完全不可能 There cannot be.
这两个时代相差如此久远 Just the two historical periods are separated by so much.
圣经并不是在教授科学 The Scriptures are not
teaching science.
我很难接受说 It's very hard for me to accept,
对于圣经，并不诠释其义 not just a literal interpretation of scripture,
却奉行原教旨主义 but a fundamentalist approach to religious belief.
这是一种折磨 It's kind of a plague.
它表现为科学，但实际上并非如此 It presents itself as science and it's not.
上帝是万能的 God is an infinite God who is working in ways
- 我们无法理解其工作的方式 - 你不觉得这是逃避？ - we don't always understand. - You don't think that's a cop-out?
他是上帝 He is God.
你是上帝吗？ Are you God?
不 No.
我们每逢周末都去教堂 We went to church every Sunday.
我和姐姐进行一种问答课程，是一种天主教式的…你知道… My sister and I went to Catechism, which is Catholic, you know,
就像天主教的希伯来学校 like Hebrew school for papists.
那是一场战争 It was like war.
是一股漫延的烦躁与无聊 It was vast stretches of boredom punctuated
夹杂着一些惊恐… by moments of sheer terror.
我在梵蒂冈 I'm in the Vatican.
（早上好！） Buongiorno!
我知道你们在想 I know what you're thinking. I'm standing in front of a green screen
我现在站在加利福尼亚伯班克工作室的一块绿色屏幕前 at a studio in Burbank, California,
然后加上梵蒂冈的图像 and they digitalized the Vatican in behind me.
不不，这是真的梵蒂冈 No no, that's really the Vatican.
我知道，我刚刚被赶了出来 I ought to know. I just got thrown out of it.
因为我想采访教皇 See, I wanted to interview the Pope,
但我还是希望能采访个红衣主教，或是主教 but I was willing to settle for a cardinal or a monsignor
或是《快乐修女》，任何人… or the Flying Nun... really anybody...
虽然很明显，我很久以前就出现在“天主教厌恶名单”上了 but apparently I've been on the Catholic shit list for quite a while.
但这是他们的损失，因为现在我要说一些我想说的东西了 But that's their loss, 'cause now I'm gonna say what I really think,
那就是： which is mainly:
那玩艺儿算什么？ Does that look anything
有什么能让我们联想到耶稣基督吗？ like anything Jesus Christ had in mind?
当你看到那个建筑…一座巨大的宫殿 When you look at a building like that, a giant palace,
它是否传达了与其创立者相违背的信息呢？ does it seem at odds with the message of the founder?
是的，当然 （牧师） Well, certainly.
- 好吧，谢谢 - 我觉得，显而易见的 - Well, thank you. - I mean, that's obvious.
确实显而易见，有什么让你觉得不爽的吗？ It really is obvious, isn't it? But does it bother you?
好吧，我，好的，是的 Well, I mean... well, yes it does.
如果我是老大 I wouldn't... if I were the boss,
我就不会住在那儿 I wouldn't be living there.
耶稣也许会住在罗马的某间棚屋里，你明白吗？ I mean Jesus would be probably out in some barracks here in a suburb of Rome, got it?
你是否有时觉得受不了了，想要扯下领章… Do you ever get so fed up you want to take the collar and go...
- 噢，我不戴领章 - …好吧，长官 - Well, I don't wear a collar anyway. ..."That's it, Captain.
这是我的领章和徽章… Take my badge and my collar."
我最近读了十本关于宗教合理性的书 I read about 10 books recently... the rationality of religion,
每个人都说这很傻 and everyone's saying it's stupid.
你知道那些人将发生什么 You know what's gonna happen to them.
- 发生什么？ - 他们将会在地狱中被炙烤 - No, what's gonna happen? - They're gonna be roasting in hell.
别这样…炙烤，那些都是过去的事了 Come on, roasting. That's the old Catholic thing.
这些是他们教我的东西啊 That's what they taught me.
是的，我知道，地狱种种 Yeah, I know, that hell business.
别这样，我在儿童所学的标准教义… Well, come on, the standard doctrine that I was taught as a kid...
是的，但他们都过去了，都结束了 Yeah, that's all gone. That's all finished.
这不公平啊 But that's not fair.
- 是的，呠呼呼…！ - 耶稣诞生的日期 - Yeah, pfft! - The date of Jesus's birth
直到公元349年才被确定 really wasn't established until 349 A.D.
噢，是的… Oh, yeah...
他也可能是七月三日生的 because he might've been born on July 3rd.
这些不过是好听的故事，你知道 These are all nice stories, you know.
- 这并没有使你困扰？ - 我当然也会困扰 - And that doesn't bother you, either? - That bothers me too.
我的意思是，当人们说：“喔，我们必须去做子夜弥撒 I mean, when everybody's, "Ooh, we have to have midnight mass
因为耶稣生于12月25日的午夜…” because Jesus was born on midnight on 25th of"...
这些都变得毫无意义了 this is all nonsense.
- 你是个特例独行的人，不是吗？ - 我不是特例独行的人 - You're a maverick, aren't you? - I'm not a maverick.
你是特例独行之父，你以自己的方法行事 You're Father Maverick. You do things your own way.
当你把所有事加起来，所有的圣徒，天使，天使长… When you add up all the saints and all the angels and archangels and super-duper angels...
上帝、我们的父、上帝的子民，圣灵… there's God, the Father, God the Son, the Holy Ghost,
圣母玛利亚，他们并不像… Mother Mary... it does start to look like
一个一神论宗教应该… it's not quite the monotheistic religion that it's...
哦，我知道，就像我们还有很多小上帝 Oh, I understand. Like we have mini-gods.
是啊，确实是那样，如果人们向… Yeah, well, it does seem like that, if people pray to a...
是的，是的，但很多人并不了解这一点 Well, yeah, but some people just don't understand this.
也许你…不是个人云亦云的人 You probably are... you don't follow things...
但他们在意大利做了个调查 but they had a survey here in Italy, you know,
问说：“在最危机的关头 and they said, "In a crisis,
你希望向哪位圣人祈祷？” what kind of saints do you pray to?" Got it?
你知道排名第六的是谁吗？耶稣基督！ You know who's the sixth on the list? Jesus Christ.
第六名…？ The sixth?
当意大利人遇到困难，呼唤的第六个人，才是耶稣基督 He's the sixth man that the Italians call upon when they have problems.
这还不够明白吗？ Isn't that neat?
- 真是有趣 - 谈谈天主教餐馆吧…呠呼呼…！ - That's very interesting. - Talk about Cafeteria Catholics. Pfft!
那么你如何说服人们诚心信仰呢？ So how do you convince people of what's the true faith?
根本不做，忘了这件事吧，你只需要活着然后死掉 You don't, forget it. You just have to live and die
带着你愚蠢的想法 with their stupid ideas.
你能做些什么呢？ I'm sorry. What are you gonna do?
你可以跑到一个电影工作室的计划会议提议 You can go to a pitch meeting at a movie studio and go,
“宇宙中有一个人… "Okay, there's a spaceman
让一位处女怀孕… who zaps a virgin
生了个儿子… and he gives birth to a son who's also him,
那个儿子进行了一项自杀性任务…” who then goes on a suicide mission."
我很好奇人们会怎么看这故事 I wonder what people would say about that.
这是个好主意 Yeah, that is actually a great pitch.
有这么多人们喜欢的元素 It has so many elements that they like,
他们喜欢自杀性任务 because they love suicide missions.
他们喜欢暴力，而好莱坞喜欢… They love violence, and Hollywood loves something
一些前所未见的东西…处女怀孕 it's never seen before... a virgin.
嘿，你好 （希伯来语） Hey, Shalom.
欢迎来此，请进来吧，愿主保佑你 We're so glad to have you here. Just come and get blessed.
这里宣扬上帝的教诲 These are here to teach God's word.
我们都在参加一场精神上的战斗 （雇员） We're in a spiritual warfare.
我们不会把信仰强行推给人们 We don't push our beliefs on people,
而要让它变得容易接受 but we do make them available.
- 你们接待过穆斯林吗？ - 是的 - Have you ever had a Muslim person? - Yes, definitely.
从加沙地带来的人 People from Gaza Strip come.
有很多人来过这里之后说 We get many people who come here say,
“每年我们到佛罗里达来 "We've come every year to Florida
四处参观 and we've done the tourist things and all and we enjoy those.
首先一定会来这里” We wish we had seen this first,"
应为他们在这里的体验是如此的意味深长 because their experience here was so meaningful.
当你还是个孩子… Do you think if... when you were a kid...
大人向你转述圣经故事 they transposed the Bible stories
和一些童话。当你成年后能够区分他们吗？ with the fairy tales, you'd know the difference as an adult?
- 我叫夏娃 - 我叫亚当 - My name is Eve. - I'm Adam.
这真是个神奇的地方 This place is amazing.
如果他们告诉你《杰克与魔豆》是信仰 If they told you Jack and the Beanstalk was religion
一个人住在鲸鱼肚子里是童话… and that a man who lived in a whale was in a fairy-tale book...
当你成为一个成年人 you think when you got to be an adult,
你会为此而争辩吗？ you'd be defending the one instead of the other?
你在说圣经故事是童话？ So you're saying that the Bible's a fairy tale?
上帝取出我的肋骨 God took my rib like this
然后像这样的搓它 and began to whittle it like this
吹了一口气…然后… and blow on it... and then...
救赎，意味着相信耶稣 Saved means believing in Jesus Christ
是上帝的独子 - as the only begotten Son of God. - Not for me, it don't.
穆斯林们呢？ What about the Muslims?
哦，现在很多穆斯林已经得到救赎了 Many Muslims are saved right now.
我不懂 I don't get it.
我祈祷你在有生之年会懂 I pray in your lifetime you do.
耶稣通过一个犹太人而降临，他不是人类的子孙 Jesus came through a Jew. He was not the seed of man.
他通过一个犹太女人而降临人世 He came through a Jewish woman,
她没有碰过任何男人 but no man had ever touched her.
她没有接触过任何的肌肤之亲 No flesh had ever touched her.
他是上帝之子 He was the seed of God.
你需要我靠在坟墓上还是… You want me to lean up against the tomb or something
非正式地…OK or you want casual or... okay.
我把手机给你了吗？ Did I give you my cell phone?
我放好手机了，对吗？只是确认一下 Oh, I left my cell phone, right? Just want to make sure.
测试，一、二，好的 Testing one two, check, testing.
你好吗，比尔，上帝保佑你 How you doing, Bill? God bless you.
- 嘿 - 又见到你了 - Hi. - Seen you around.
- 欢迎来到我们的世界 - 是我又见到你了 - Welcome to our world. - I've seen you around.
这是你的坟墓？是真的石头？ Now is this your tomb? Is this a real rock?
不，只是水泥做的 No, it's just cement. They just kind of cemented it in there.
当你出去吃晚饭的时候，人们会认出你吗？ So when you go out to dinner, people recognize you?
经常如此，是啊 All the time, yeah.
你肯定也经常… I think you get a little bit of that, too.
但他们不会认为我是上帝之子 But they don't think I'm the Lord. You must really be...
你觉得人们为什么会到这儿来？因为迪斯尼乐园太烂了？ Why do you think people come here? 'Cause Disneyland's too smutty?
我个人并不属于这里 I personally haven't been to the Holy Land,
所以当我走进来的时候，我觉得，这真是绝妙的体验 so this was an awesome experience for me when I walked on the property.
- 我会说：“哇，真酷！” - 让我问你几个问题 - I was like, "Wow, this is cool." - Let me ask you questions
- 关于你的工作… - 好的 - about your business... - Yes.
…或者说耶稣的工作，上帝是全能的 ...or really the Jesus business. God is super powerful.
- 他能做任何事 - 是啊 - He can do anything. - Sure.
为什么他不直接消灭邪恶 Why doesn't he just obliterate the devil
让世界摆脱罪孽？ and therefore get rid of evil in the world?
- 他希望如此 - 希望如此？他在等什么？ - He will. - He will? What's he waiting for?
- 审判日 - 但为什么是这么个玩法？ - End times. - But why play it out like that?
- 为什么要把这当成游戏？ - 这不见得是个游戏 - Why make it a game? - Well, it's not necessarily a game.
圣经里说，在上帝的眼里，千年如一日 A day is like a thousand years in God's eyes, it says in the Bible.
他等了两天，耶稣死了 If you wanna look at it... just like two days ago, Christ died.
他和我们不在一个层次 But I know that he is so far beyond any of our ways,
他能以最痛苦的方式来行他的善 that he can work the worst situation for his good.
那浩劫呢，为什么浩劫就是好的？ What was the Holocaust? Why was that good?
你知道，上帝有他的计划，所以… You know, God had a plan for that. Maybe it's to cause...
如果你是其中一个 I wonder if you would have thought that if you were one of the people
- 被处以火烧刑罚的罪人 - 好吧，打个比方 - being pushed into an oven. - Well, you know what?
这就像对一只蚂蚁解释电视的工作原理 It's like trying to explain to an ant how a TV works.
这是由于…上帝的层次比我们高太多了 That's... God's ways are so much higher than ours.
你根本无法理解 There's no way you can understand that.
请你暂停一下这个访谈好吗 We need to stop the interview for just a moment, please.
- 很高兴见到你 - 我是公共关系部高级经理 - Nice to see you. - Senior manager of public relations.
没人告诉我他会到这里，我需要知道他是谁，他的采访是什么类型的 - Hi, Les, I'll be right with you. - Hi. Sure.
我可不害怕母夜叉 I'm not afraid of the piranha women.
当他降临，他说：“我来不是要废掉律法，乃是要成全它” When he came, he said, "I come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."
比尔，你把《利未记》所定的律法简化为两件事： You boil all those Levitical laws down to two things:
在我之前不曾有神 No other God is before me, Bill,
爱我主，全心全意 and love the Lord with all your heart.
但是，耶稣，在你之前不曾有神？ But, Jesus, having no other gods before you,
这是不道义的，毫无品格可言 that's not moral. There's nothing moral about that.
这是一个小气的神才会说的话 It's just something a jealous god would do.
没错上帝是小气的 It does say that our God is a jealous god.
但上帝怎么能是小气的呢？这一点都不像个神 But your God is jealous? That seems so unGodlike
神应该是非常有人情味的 that God would have such a petty human emotion.
我知道人有时会小气，妒忌 I know people who have gotten over jealousy,
- 不要拉上上帝好吗？ - 这就像硬币的两面 - let alone God. - There's two sides to the coin.
他只是个神；他是个仁慈的神 He's a just God and he's also a merciful God.
在圣经的头五篇里，他摧残人类 No, he spends the first five books of the Bible wiping out people.
这是上帝所要做的，比尔，他的层次比我们高 That's what he chose to do. His ways are higher than ours, Bill.
- 也许我们思考的层次应该高一些 - 这看法不错 - Maybe our thinking should be higher. - That's a good point.
上帝给你留下了“神所量给我们的洞” God has got this God-sized hole in your life.
你可以以任何东西填充那颗心… You can fit that with any position...
药品、性爱，无论什么，但它永远不会满 drugs, sex, whatever you want... it is not gonna fill it.
- 我能试试么？ - 随你所愿 - Can I try? - You can try all you want.
你可以终结自己 You're gonna end up hurting yourself,
伤害自己，甚至点燃自己 damaging yourself and burning yourself up.
我想基督所宣扬的是不要评判别人 I thought Christ was about not judging people.
- 是的 - 你不是在评判我吗？ - That's true. - Isn't that a judgment there?
你不了解我，却告诉我我的胸口有一个“洞” You don't know me and you're telling me I need to fill a hole in my heart
- 填满毒品，性爱… - 不，我不是指你 - with drugs and sex. - No, I'm not talking about you.
我是在说每一个人 I'm saying anyone in general.
如果我是上帝，我会创造出没有“洞”的人类 See, if I was God, I would create people without the hole to begin with.
你是否曾经听到有声音在内心深处呢喃低语？ Have you ever had a little voice in the back of your mind say something?
- 我们都曾有过 - 那叫做圣灵 - We've all had that. - That's called the Holy Spirit.
- 那不是上帝，那是你！ - 那被称为圣灵 - That's not God. That's you. - That's called the Holy Spirit.
- 感觉到风了吗？ - 是的 - Feel this wind right now? - Yeah.
OK，它在哪儿？你不知道？对吧 Okay, where is it? You don't know, right?
- 那是风 - OK，那就像圣灵 - Yeah, it's called wind. - Okay, that's like the Holy Spirit.
基督是一神论的信仰，但三位一体有三个神 It's a monotheistic religion, but there's three of them.
这就像水、冰、气 Just like water can be ice, steam and water.
明白了 I see.
这只是不同的形式与外形 It's different forms, different shapes for the different purposes.
昨天游乐场里的耶稣用的那个类比，真是华丽 The analogy that Jesus at the amusement park said yesterday was brilliant,
他说三位一体就像水 about the Trinity is like water.
可以蒸发，可以结冰 It can be steam. It can be ice.
可以流动…哗吓，真是… It can be liquid. Wow, that is...
好家伙，让我思路都停了一下子 boy, that stopped me in my tracks for a second, you know?
但那只是华丽的类比而已 That's just a brilliant analogy.
当你思考两分钟之后 When you think about it for two minutes,
终究还是狗屎一堆 it's still complete bullshit.
宇宙中有个上帝和…他自己 There this space God and he's himself
然后他派…他自己，进行了一项自杀性任务… and he sent himself on a suicide mission.
他是上帝，他有个儿子，一个单亲父亲… He's a God, but he has a kid. He's a single parent.
这些都很傻，但你加上一个水的类比 It's just silly, but when you put it in the water analogy,
你知道，很多女士 I can see that, you know, those ladies there,
当她们第一次听到这个… when they heard that the first time, they were like, done.
毫无抵抗… Sold. Oh, you had me at ice cube.
继续，是否有困扰你的故事比如 Moving on. Does it ever bother you
一个处女所生的人 that the story of a man
他能够死而复生 who was born of a virgin was resurrected?
你的故事发生在至少一千年前的地中海 Your bio was something that was going around the Mediterranean for at least 1,000 years.
但我们有至少二千年前的克利须那，发生在印度的故事 We've got Krishna who was in India
克利须那，是一个木匠 1,000 years before Christ. Krishna was a carpenter,
处女之子，在一条河中受洗 born of a virgin, baptized in a river.
你说的事有历史记载吗？ Are you saying that was written in history?
有没有白纸黑字的证据？ That was written down in history, is that what you're saying?
有一件事可以确定，波斯人的上帝：密斯拉，比耶稣早六百多年 Absolutely, there's the Persian god Mithra, 600 years before Christ.
生于12月25日，施展神迹 Born December 25th, performed miracles,
在第三日复活 resurrected on the third day,
被冠名以羔羊、指引、真理、光明、救世主、弥赛亚 known as the Lamb, the Way, the Truth, the Light, the Savior, Messiah.
停止！亵渎者！ Stop! Blasphemer!
我所知道的是，我不曾听过这些传闻 All I know is that I don't go by that hearsay.
我遵从上帝的指引，我了解什么是我的信仰 I go by the word of God. I know that's why I believe.
好吧，我相信它因它是真的 - Well, I believe it because it's truth. - Believe it, yes.
但相信和真相是有差别的 But there's a difference between truth and what you believe.
圣经里说对于上帝一切皆有可能，对吗？ In the Bible it tells us that all things are possible with God, okay?
由于借鉴了一千年前地中海的这个上帝 Study the religions of the Mediterranean region
for a thousand years before.
许多新上帝都出生在12月25日 Many of the gods were born on December 25th.
- 不… - 并非新上帝 - No, it's not. - It's not a new one.
你应该提到 It's funny you should bring that up because of course
在《星球大战前传：幽灵的威胁》 in "Star Wars: Episode l... The Phantom Menace,"
阿纳金也是处女所生 Anakin is born to a virgin.
人们听了之后说 People see that and say, "Wait a second.
等等，这不是原创的 Where have we heard that before?" That's not original.
- 但耶稣的故事也不是原创的 - 什么？ （公元前1280年，埃及一个几乎相同的故事） - But the Jesus story wasn't original. - How so?
让我问你个问题，如果你所选的… Let me ask you a question. Let's say, if you take the side that this is all made up...
我愿意 I do.
…如果你错了呢？ ...what if you're wrong?
如果你错了呢？ What if you're wrong?
# Down the Via Dolorosa # # Down the Via Dolorosa #
# In Jerusalem that day # # In Jerusalem that day #
# The soldiers tried # # The soldiers tried #
# To clear the narrow street # # To clear the narrow street #
# But the crowd pressed in to see # # But the crowd pressed in to see #
# The man condemned to die # # The man condemned to die #
# On Calvary # # On Calvary #
# Down the Via Dolorosa # # Down the Via Dolorosa #
# Called the Way of Suffering # # Called the Way of Suffering #
# Like a lamb came the Messiah # # Like a lamb came the Messiah #
# Christ the King # # Christ the King #
# And he chose to walk that road # # And he chose to walk that road #
# Out of his love # # Out of his love #
# For you # # For you #
# And me. # # And me. #
耶稣是罪人吗？ Was Jesus a sinner?
一个世界、一个主人，我就是你们的主人！ One master. One word. I am your master.
我们的收容所里都是些什么人？ Who do we put away in the asylums?
Xenu，7500万年前将我们带到这里 （Xenu，South Park里邪恶的银河系统治者） Xenu brought us here 75 million years ago,
把我们堆在火山旁边 stacked us around volcanoes
然后用氢弹轰炸我们 （这就是科学教派） and blew them up with an H-bomb.
我们比这个宇宙还要古老 （银河系联邦已经持续了八十万亿年） We are older than the universe.
你们必须摆脱外星独裁者的植入体！ （这些邪恶的植入体名为Thetans） You have to rid yourself of the implants from the extraterrestrial dictators!
要有静电计，一定要有静电计！ （静电计可以测量你体内的Thetans的强弱） - Get an E-Meter. Yes, get an E-Meter! - An E-meter?
“审查”你自己 （“审查”是唯一去除Thetans的方法） Audit yourself.
你们这些人怎么可能提升到下一个境界？ How do you people expect to get to the next level?
我不是在制定规则 I'm not making the rules.
喔… Aw...
你知道，科学论教派的信徒… You know, Scientologists...
好吧，你们认为：“噢，是的，这太荒谬了。好吧 And right, you're like, "Oh, yeah, that's some crazy shit. Okay.
处女之子耶稣和鸽子和蛇 Jesus with the virgin birth and the dove and the snake
在园中谈话，那样好 who talked in the garden, that's cool.
科学论教派才是荒谬的” But the Scientologists, they're the crazy ones."
那是不对的 That's not true.
那个…那个，我不明白 That... that... I don't have any idea
你在说什么 of what you're talking about.
但是我们必须知道 But it has something to do with making sure
我们生来就带着 that we're born with a defect,
被感染的灵魂 so that the souls of ours
被外星人所污染… are infected with aliens...
Thank you.
…因为治愈了？科学论教派 ...because the cure? Scientology.
他们都很疯狂，是的，宗教越来越疯狂了 They're all crazy. Yes, the religions do get even crazier.
但他们必须与时俱进 They have to to keep up.
他们不断追求更高的目标，完成了处女生子之后 They keep raising the bar. After you've done the virgin birth,
你知道，还要做些什么呢？ you know, where do you go?
We're not getting the top?
- We got the top. - Oh, okay.
在我身后就是摩门教堂 That's the Mormon Temple behind me.
成为一个摩门教徒意味着相信很多相当荒谬的事情 To be a Mormon is to believe some really crazy stuff,
甚至相对于一般宗教来说，仍然显得荒谬 crazy even by the standards of the big religions.
当你是街区里新来的小伙子… When you're the new kid on the block...
- 比尔，如实报道哦 - 谢谢，真是个有益的提议 Thank you. That was helpful.
你是街区里新来的 You're the new kid on the block
所有能用的疯狂故事都被讲过了 and all the good crazy has already been picked over,
所以你不得不自抬身价… so you kind of have to up the ante.
噢 Oh.
该死的 God damn it.
当我说到一半 Not while I'm in the middle of it.
我们都开始了… Well, we do have it.
好家伙，这么多人 Boy, a lot of people came
- 不知道从哪儿冒出来的 - 是啊 - out of the woodwork. - Yeah.
你们接触过教堂里的人了吗？ So did you guys get anybody from the church to talk to?
好吧，如果被赶出私有财产算是 （前摩门教徒） Well, if you count getting thrown off the property
- “接触”的话 - 那更好一些 - "talked to." - That's probably better.
让我们欢迎，摩门教徒 We'd like you to "Meet the Mormons."
在创立者的手稿中，你打开《教义和圣约》 In the founding scripture, you open up the Doctrine of Covenants,
阅读《斯密约瑟》的自传 you read the autobiography of Joseph Smith.
他写道耶稣基督告诉他 He quotes Jesus Christ as telling him
世界上的每一条教义 that every other creed on earth is, quote,
都是“一条憎恶”，憎恶！ "an abomination." An abomination.
我是说，这可不是一个非常普遍的说法 I mean, that's not a very ecumenical statement.
我认为我们所谈论的内容，从某个角度来说 You're talking about things that, I think, at some level
会显得毫无意义 you sense just do not make sense.
我很高兴你提到这点，因为我曾读到摩门教的一些教条 I'm glad you said that because I read some of the tenets of Mormonism,
就像“上帝住在Kalob星旁边的一颗行星上” like "God lives on a planet near the star of Kalob."
- Kalob - Kolob - Kolob. - Kolob.
上帝是一个有血有肉的人类 God the Father who's a physical man with a body of flesh and bone
高大约六尺，住在一颗名为Kolob的行星上 is probably about 6' tall, lives on a place called Kolob,
与玛丽有性关系，记住他是个男人 had sexual relations with Mary... remember he's a man.
“上帝与玛丽做爱 "Jesus Christ was conceived by God the father
而生下了耶稣” having actual sex with Mary."
玛丽说，“如果这是上帝所要做的， Mary said, "If this is what God wants,
我非常乐意” I'll be glad to do His will."
“暗色皮肤是上帝的诅咒， "Dark skin is a curse from God,
不过你如果足够正直， but if you're sufficiently righteous,
那么一个黑肤色的人 a dark-skinned person
也能变成白色” can become light-skinned."
根据摩门经所说， According to the Book of Mormon,
耶稣复活之后来到了美洲 after his resurrection, Jesus came to the Americas
向印第安人布道 to preach to the Indians.
“美洲的印第安人实际上是以色列人的后裔” "That American Indians are actually a lost tribe of Israel."
他们是失落的犹太人 They're lost Jews.
还有关于 And also the idea
基督就在美国的说法 that Christianity is American,
我想，这会是一个巨大的迎合 I think, is an amazing entitlement to a people
对于那些总是试图将基督与美国联系起来的人来说 who are always trying to meld God and country.
摩门教认为 伊甸园就在密苏里州 The Garden of Eden was in Missouri according to Mormonism.
新的圣城耶路撒冷将会在那里建成 The new Jerusalem will be there.
Branson，我希望如此 Branson, I'm hoping.
我还听说，摩门教堂施洗已死的人 I've also heard that the Mormon Church baptizes dead people.
如果要施洗大约50位 You can be baptized for about 50 people,
或100位已死的人 100 people that've died.
那你就浸泡50至100次 And so you just get dunked about 50 to 100 times.
这就是为死人施洗 That's baptism for the dead.
咖啡因是罪恶的一种神奇的内衣可以保护你 （免疫火烧、兵刃、子弹、撒旦） Caffeine is evil. That magic underwear can protect you.
你还需要一种进入天堂的秘密口令 And that you need a secret password to get into heaven.
每个人都必须在最后时刻来临时，站在斯密约瑟耶稣和埃洛希姆的面前接受审判 Everyone must stand at the final judgment before Joseph Smith, Jesus and Elohim.
这不是个安逸的宗教 This isn't an easy religion.
你们觉得为什么只有很少人 Why do you think it is that so few people
做了你们所做的，离开教堂？ do what you have done and leave the church?
突然有一刻你不得不承认 The moment you acknowledge to yourself that Joseph Smith
斯密约瑟所说的经历和教义并不真实 did not tell the truth about his experiences and his achievements,
…你会遭遇社交崩溃 you just committed social suicide.
- 家人和朋友… - 家人和朋友 - Family and friends... - Family and friends.
…你将陷入困境 ...will... you're off the deep end.
Andrew Newberg教授，很高兴见到你 Dr. Andrew Newberg, nice to meet you.
我终于遇到了一个研究…神经神学的学者 I've finally met someone who's studied... neurotheology.
这和我经常说的很像 This is getting very close to something I always say,
宗教只是一种精神上的混乱 which is that religion is a neurological disorder.
当人受了上帝的刺激后，脑子里会发生什么变化呢？ What does the brain look like when it's hopped up on God?
我们用各种颜色… We see a lot of different colors, which help us to...
标明大脑中兴奋的部位 tell us what the activity is in the brain
我们发现大脑将发生一些特定的变化 and what we have found is that there are some very specific changes
当人们处于冥想或祈祷状态时 when people are actually meditating or praying
甚或胡言乱语时，这是我们最新的研究 or even speaking in tongues, which was our last study.
In the name of Jesus,
you've been made whole by the power of God.
- 胡言乱语？ - 我们研究言语含糊状态下的人 - Speaking in tongues? - We studied people speaking in tongues.
他们只是胡说八道，对吗？ They're just babbling, though, right?
他们根本不在说一种他们所知的语言 They're not really speaking in a language they don't know.
实际上那不是一种语言… It's not an actual language, but what's...
只是胡扯，不是吗教授 Just bullshit, Doc, come on.
那不是 #*$^@*&#^@*#& Isn't that something?
我爱你们 I love you.
那么你是否同意，一件事尽管被千百万人所相信 So you would agree that even if a billion people
仍然可能是荒谬的？ believe something, it can still be ridiculous?
- 确实如此 - 但是犹太人，他们… - Absolutely. - But the Jews, I mean, they're...
原谅我，犹太朋友们，他们像任何人一样疯疯癫癫 excuse me, Jewish friends... but they're as cuckoo as anybody,
而他们才是正统的… especially the really Orthodox ones.
你是世界上少数几个犹太人中 You are one of the few Jewish people in the world
不赞同以色列建国的人 who does not believe in the state of Israel.
你不认为… You do not think the state
- 以色列国应该存在 - 正确 - of Israel should exist. - Correct.
- 好的 - 上帝赐予我们以色列的土地 - Okay. - God gave us the land of Israel.
在西奈山上，我们同上帝达成了协约 On Mount Sinai where we made this bond with God,
他说：“我给予你们这土地，但我规定… He said, "I'm giving you the land, but I'm stipulating...
非常明确的规定，你们必须保持圣洁” very clearly stipulating... you must be on a certain level of holiness."
你可以清楚得看到，我们后来被赶出了土地… You will see it clearly that we were sent out of the land.
那么你主要是说 So basically you're saying that
因犹太人不够圣洁故不足以 the Jewish people have not been holy enough
接受以色列的土地 to deserve the land of Israel.
上帝明白什么对我们有利，什么对我们有害… God understands what is good for us, what is bad for us...
- 但是… - …什么能给我们带来平安，什么不能 - First of all... ...what will bring us safety or not.
让我先说完 Let me just finish.
上帝告诉我们，如果我们违反了他… God told us, though, if you will go against God...
- 上帝运行着世界… - 好吧，我… - God manipulates the world... - Okay, l...
等一等，让我说完这句 Wait a second. Let me finish this.
上帝说如果你们尝试建立这个国家 God said if you're going to try to make the state,
你们将不会成功 you will be unsuccessful.
你在透过… You are looking through...
你在透过钥匙孔来看这个世界 you're trying to look at this world through a keyhole.
我是透过钥匙来看… I'm looking through the key...
让我说完，上帝是很有同情心的 Let me finish. God is compassionate.
我相信每个人都是直接面对着上帝的 Everything is directly from God, we believe.
- 但是看起来… - 我马上解释你的问题 - But it seems to me... - I'll now explain what you're asking.
有一种观念认为 The concept of saying
我们经受了太多的反犹太主义的苦难… that we've suffered enough anti-Semitism...
再也不会 Never again.
所以你不说“再也不会”，你说“还会” So you don't say "Never again." You say "Again."
是啊，让我们了解一下，那些犹太人们 Yeah. Let us understand that the Jewish people
在上帝的庇护下，被流放了二千年 were living in exile for 2,000 years under God's protection
我们生活在西方文明中… and we were living in Western civilization...
- 德国、波兰… - 让我说完 - Germany, Poland. Not anymore... - Let me finish.
我们在这些国家中居住了太多年 We were living amongst all nations throughout the years.
有多少人在犹太人大屠杀中丧生？ ...'cause they're all dead. How many people died in the Holocaust?
你现在又跳到大屠杀 You're jumping. Let's jump to the Holocaust.
我觉得主题应该是犹太人的平安 I thought the issue was Jewish safety.
我觉得主题应该是多少犹太人丧生 I thought the issue was how many Jews are dying.
让我们来讨论犹太人的平安 So let's talk about Jewish safety.
好吧，的确有一些… Okay, I'm sure there was a few...
数百万犹太人丧生，你说这是好的？这就是你的措辞？ A couple million Jews died, that's okay, that's the wording you use?
你在2006年12月去了伊朗 You're the one who went to Iran in December 2006
for the president
出席了伊朗总理“否认”大屠杀的会议 of that country's Holocaust "denial" conference.
啊呀，话可不能乱说 Whoa, don't just throw words.
为什么内贾德说 Why does Ahmadinejad say that he wants Israel
- 他要把以色列从地图上抹去 - 他从来没说过 - to be wiped from the face of the... - When did he say that?
- 他说了 - 从来没有 - He did. - He never said that.
那他怎么说的？他说 What did he say? What was the exact quote?
- 他说的是应该“消失” - 什么？他是大卫科波菲尔吗？ - He said it should disappear. - What, is he David Copperfield?
- 真是放肆 - 再也不会了，Rabbi，再也不会 - That's chutzpah. - Never again, Rabbi, never again.
等等等等，再等一会儿 Wait. One more second.
不，我退出 No, I'm out.
我们有保守派，我们有改革派 We have Conservatives. We have Reforms.
我们有正统派 We have the Orthodox.
你是一个观察敏锐的犹太人 You are an observing Jew.
在第四诫命说： It says it right there in the fourth commandment:
“当记念安息日，守为圣日” Honor the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
周五晚上到周六晚上，什么都不做 Friday night to Saturday night, you don't do anything.
是的，几个世纪来犹太教教士们创造了这些禁令 Yeah, the rabbis over the centuries have created these prohibitions
来保护安息日的神圣 as a way to try to protect the day of rest.
你不能用电，你不能开车 You can't use electricity. You can't drive.
让我们来谈些关于保持安息日神圣的话吧 Let's talk a little about keeping the Sabbath holy.
我曾怀疑说 I've always wondered if it came about
难道因为上帝在安息日休息过 because God rested on the Sabbath
所以我们人类也必须这么做 and that's why man has to.
这是对的，这是创世的第七天 That's right, and that was the creation
因此需要有个安息日 of the seventh day, that there should be rest.
有39种特定的行为 There are 39 types of specific actions
是在安息日所被禁止的 that cannot be done on the Sabbath.
其中一项是不许开灯 One of them is lighting a fire.
不许栽培或耕种 Planting. Another one is plowing.
不许打结或解结 Another one is tying a knot, untying a knot.
不许建筑或毁坏 One is building, and one is destroying so as to build.
那么犹太教为了保持圣洁而制造了这些机器 So much more kosher is to develop these gadgets
是的 - that figure out a way around it. - That's right.
这让人觉得，在一定程度上 It does seem that you are, to a degree,
你们试图超越上帝 trying to outsmart God.
即使制定律法者不会犯错误 If the lawmaker never makes a mistake,
律法仍然会有漏洞，为什么会有漏洞呢？ and still there's a loophole there, why is that loophole there?
因为时代不同了 To be used in a situation of need.
那我们如何超越这些有4000年历史的规定呢？ But how did this get updated for a 4,000-year-old rule?
因为有太多东西都需要用到电 It seems there's an awful lot that has to do with electricity.
哈尔佩林教士的工作就是 Rabbi Halperin's work here is translating it
升级这些电器 into something more modern.
让们看看这些机器 Let's look at some of the gadgets you have.
我对这个电话特别感兴趣，这是个移动电话吗？ I'm particularly interested in the phone. Is there not a cell phone?
不是移动电话 It's not a cell phone.
OK，噢… Okay, wow.
我必须说，这看起来真是现代 I have to say, that looks modern.
每个数字都在不停的拨号 Each number is trying to dial itself all the time.
Hello, Hello Hello. Hello.
我拿着这个根棒子 When I take the stick
- 放进这个洞里… - Hello - and I put it into the hole... - Hello.
…以抑制这个数字 ...l'm inhibiting that which is inhibiting
中断它的拨号 the number from dialing itself.
让我们看看这个，很明显这是个轮椅 Let me ask about this. It's obviously a wheelchair.
- 可以吗？ - 当然 - May I? - Sure.
噢，啊呀 Oh, wow.
我猜这不是个新样品 And this is not the new model, I'm guessing.
- 这是实验样品 - 明白了 - This is the experimental prototype. - I see.
笨蛋！ Schmuck!
- 它的动力是气压，对吗？ - 是的 - This runs on air pressure, right? - Correct.
这里有150个标准大气压的压强 Basically, we've got 150 atmospheres of pressure here.
这样开启，在这里关闭 We've got the turning it on, turning it off here.
那么气是允许的 So air is okay.
- 气允许，火禁止 - 火禁止 - Air good. Fire bad. - Fire bad.
Fire bad!
我们拆下一辆老自行车的… We've taken an old bicycle...
- 我忘了怎么叫了 - 轮圈？ - I forgot what it's called. - Tire.
好的，气体从这边进入，出来 Okay. Air goes in, air goes out.
如果我坐在这轮椅上 If I was a person in that wheelchair,
我会对自己说：“为什么我只有这种高度 I might say to myself, "Why am I going to these lengths
上帝啊请你告诉我谁拿走了我的腿？” to please God, who's taken away my legs to begin with?"
OK Okay.
下一个发明将非常吸引人。这，是部电梯 That would be fascinating. It's an elevator.
喔，一部“安息日电梯” Oh, it's a Shabbatavator.
让我猜猜看，你可以按一下按钮… Let me guess, you can't push a button...
- 没错 - …在安息日 - Correct. ...on the Sabbath.
那些人们看不到的工作原理，才是我们真正要应付的问题 The issues behind the scenes that people don't see are the real problems.
还有一个更大问题将会是 An even bigger problem might be how do you get someone
如果主人不是个超级疯子，你该怎么把这些发明放进他的房子里？ to put this in their building if they're not completely nuts?
其实，这些东西并没有什么不一样 Well, actually, that really doesn't make a difference.
唔 Hmm.
我们是否认定宗教为疯狂 How we define what is crazy or not crazy
最终取决于我们如何定义疯狂 about religions is ultimately up to how we define crazy.
如果把精神病定义为人们听到有人冥冥中对他们说话 If you define mental illness as anyone who hears a voice
那么听到上帝说话的人都是疯狂的 talking to them, then anyone who has heard the voice of God is crazy.
她说有一个预言 She talks about a prophecy
她的孩子们必须死 that these children needed to die.
调查员问她：“你为什么要杀死你的孩子？” The dispatcher asked "Why did you do this?"
“我被命令这么做”“谁命令你？”“上帝” "I was told to." "Who told you?" "God."
There is nothing
He may not ask of thee?
但在外人的眼里，耶稣就是个傻子 But in layman's terms, Jesus was nuts.
摩西…“留在这儿， Moses..."Stay here, I'm going up
我要去从上帝哪儿获得十诫” and getting the 10 Commandments right from God."
你知道，我也… You know, 'cause one thing I've also...
我们在那个时代并没有大脑扫瞄技术，所以很难说 We didn't have brain-scan technology back then, so it's a hard to tell.
但如果一个家伙说我要去山上和上帝谈话 I know, but if a guy says he went up on a mountain and he talked to God,
然后用一丛燃烧的灌木进行通话 and He talked to him through a burning bush,
那家伙就是个疯子 that guy's a cuckoo.
所有提到我的牧师 All those pastors who refer to me
都认为我是反耶稣的，假先知 as the anti-Christ, false prophet,
因为他们是可悲的 it's because they're miserable.
所有不信我的人都是可悲的 Anyone who doesn't believe in me is miserable.
- 我的麦开着吗？ - 是的，先生 - My mike is on? - Yes, sir.
好吧，根据圣经来说，你是谁？ Okay, who are you Biblically?
我和耶稣一样，我是第二个降临的基督 I am Jesus Christ man, the second coming of Christ, I am.
旧约非常清楚的预言过我的出现 The Old Testament speaks about me clearly
新约同样也有 and the New Testament also.
- 预言到你这个人？ - 是的 - About you personally? - Yes.
不是因为你的名字里也有耶稣？ Not just because you have... you share the name Jesus?
- 当然不是因为这个 - 你的名字里也有米兰达 - No, not because of that. - You also share the name Miranda.
也许你是卡门米兰达（女明星） Maybe you're Carmen Miranda.
也许是她的第二次降临？ Maybe the second coming of her?
你应该把水果顶在头上，而不是塞进脑子里 You should have fruit on your head, instead of fruit in your head.
干你 Okay. Fuck you. How's that?
为什么你认为上帝选择了你？ Why do you think God chose you?
拿撒勒的耶稣有一个妻子 Jesus of Nazareth had a wife
耶稣死后 so after they killed him,
他的子孙不停迁徙，从法国到西班牙 his seed kept going, maybe through France, Spain,
从西班牙到波多黎各 and then from Spain, came to Puerto Rico.
这一血统可追溯至亚伯拉罕，亚伯拉罕到大卫 The bloodline come from Abraham, Abraham to David,
从大卫到拿撒勒的耶稣 David to Jesus of Nazareth,
然后由耶稣到我 Jesus of Nazareth, me.
好的，我以为耶稣的二次降临 Okay, I though a second coming
会是耶稣的亲自转世 was the reincarnation of the Christ himself,
而不是他的后代 not a descendant of.
不，他是耶稣的后代 No, he's a descendant.
后代？噢，但你并不相信地狱？ Descendant? Oh... but you don't believe in hell?
- 不 - 或恶魔？ - No. - Or the Devil?
- 不 - 甚至罪？ - No. - Or even sin, right?
不，再也没有什么罪了 No, there's not a sin any longer.
你告诉我们耶稣为我们的罪而死 What you teach is that Jesus died for our sins
然后再也没有什么罪了 and so there's not really any sinning anymore.
- 再也没有 - 这就像营养师告诉你说 - No more sin. - This is like a diet doctor saying,
- “爱吃什么就吃什么吧” - 是的 - "Eat anything you want." - Right.
“体重将会减轻，而且易于坚持” "You don't lose weight, but it's easy to stick to."
这是我所相信的，比尔 That's what I believe, Bill.
哦，我知道 Oh, I know you do.
我有很多信徒都相信 And I have many people who believe in this.
你有一点… And yet, you have a little... you have a little twinkle
当你这么说的时候，你的眼神有点闪烁 in your eye when say it.
不，我相信如此，我相信 No, I believe in that. I believe.
很多人都喜欢这份工作 How do we know? Because lots of people would like this job.
你是怎么得到这份…二次降临的工作？ How do you get this job as the second coming?
Craigslist上可没有它的招聘广告 It's not on Craigslist.
- 是啊 - 我猜的，也许有 - Yeah. - I'm guessing. Maybe it is.
两个天使… See, two angels...
两个名叫天使的家伙…西班牙人 Two guys named Angel, Spanish guys.
你知道我在说什么 You know what I'm talking about,
你这该死的畜生！ you fucking cockroach!
- 不 - 噢，真正的天使 - No. - Oh, actual angels.
- 两个天使来见我… - OK - Two angels came to me... - Okay.
…并告诉我说 ...and they told me
“今晚，万王之王 "The Lord of Lords and King of Kings
将来涂油于你命你为牧师” is coming to anoint you for the ministry tonight."
天使以什么形态出现？多高？ What form did the angels come in? How tall?
稍高且强壮 Little tall and strong.
他们说什么，我便服从 Whatever they told me, I obey.
我可不希望得罪他们 I don't wanna mess with them.
我只是说 But I'm just saying,
看起来上帝想要 it seems that if God wanted
和世上的某人沟通… to communicate something to the world...
他是无所不能的 He's all powerful...
他可以直接向全世界宣告 He would just talk to the whole world.
但似乎他总是悄悄地选出个先知 It always seems He picks out a prophet in private
然后告诉他们：“OK，你就是先知” and tells them, "Okay, you're the prophet."
- 我就是这样 - “你去告诉世上的其他人吧” - I am. - "You go tell the rest of the world."
然后我们就在信仰上接受事实 So we just sort of have to take it on faith.
有几分不得不相信你的感觉 We just sort of have to believe you.
对，是的，确实是这样 Right, yeah, it's true.
亚伯拉罕、诺亚 Abraham. Noah.
主啊，我该怎么做？ Lord, what shall I do?
摩西 Moses,
独自到山顶上来 climb the mount alone.
曾有一次，上帝告诉斯密约瑟（摩门教） Once again, the Lord had spoken to Joseph Smith
你必须像亚当、亚伯拉罕 as he had to Adam, Abraham,
摩西、保罗，还有其他圣徒… Moses, Paul and others.
我是第一基督徒 I am the first Christian.
你是说其他人都带有些犹太色彩 And the rest are really kind of Jewish, you're saying,
因为他们追随的就是个犹太人 because they're following a Jew.
没错 That's it.
实际上，人们在一些地方写着 In fact, they put on the plates...
“我的老板是个犹太木匠” they say "My boss is a Jewish carpenter."
多么荒谬啊！一个犹太木匠！ How ridiculous is that? A Jewish carpenter!
- 想想看 - 犹太人只会雇佣木匠 - Imagine. - Come on, Jews hire carpenters.
他们从不… They don't...
你知道，人们说：“我找到了我人生的使命” you know, people say "I found my calling in life."
而这就是个好的使命，尊贵的生活 And it's a good calling. It's a nice living.
人民崇拜你，无论你去哪儿 People adore you. Everywhere you go,
他们待你如耶稣，如救世主 they treat you like Christ, like you're the Messiah.
其实，如果我发现我自己生来就是个魔鬼 You know, if I discovered that I was Satan in person,
那我也会好好地做个魔鬼 I would do a good job, too,
因为我要忠诚地对待我的使命 because I would be faithful to my calling.
这就是你的工作，不是么？ It's how you do your work, isn't it?
你知道，当世界末日来临 You know, at the end of the day, whether you're the Messiah
无论你是魔鬼还是救世主 or you're Satan, it's loving what you do
都要全身心地投入进去，百分之百的努力 and giving it 100%.
我的确是百分之百地努力 I give 100%.
我生性多疑 I wasn't born skeptical.
当我40岁的时候还在和上帝做交易 I was still making deals with "God" when I was 40.
我记得我戒烟的过程 I remember I quit smoking.
我的生活出了些麻烦 There was some shitty problem I had in my life,
于是我就和上帝做交易， and I made a deal with God,
“OK，如果你帮我解决这些麻烦 "Okay, if you make this problem go away,
我就戒掉吸烟，我没有再碰香烟 I will quit smoking, and I won't go back on it
因为我告诉自己我在和上帝做交易” 'cause I'd know I'd be going back on a deal with God."
你知道，我必须说， And you know, I gotta say,
我很高兴曾拥有过一个“上帝” I'm kind of glad I had "God" in my life.
你是Cantheism（拜大麻教）世界第一教会的头头 You are the head of the First Universal Church of Cantheism...
- 是的 - 这儿就是你们进行仪式的地方？ - Yes. - which is really built around this substance here.
不 - No.
不？好吧，我搞错了 No? Okay, I got that wrong.
但总归和大麻有关 But it's built around smoking this.
我是说，没有教条，对吗？ I mean, it has no dogma, right?
你不向任何人讲道 You're not preaching to anybody. You're not saying
- 没有什么拯救灵魂啦，典礼啦… - 没有 - you'll save their souls, no rituals. - No.
怎么区分这些和颓废堕落？ How does this differ from just getting wasted?
I mean that in the best possible way, but...
我理解上帝的含义 I understand the concept of God,
一种天人合一的感觉 a feeling of one with everything else.
每次你吸大麻的时候都能感觉到？ Do you feel that every time you smoke pot?
不 No.
呼！我还以为只有我呢 Phew! I thought it was just me.
你为什么认为这类药品 So why do you think it's this family of drugs
有益于激发我们的智慧 that's so good for opening our minds
而不是安眠酮、迷幻药、 as opposed to ludes, PCP,
妈妈的减肥药的粉末，或者把所有药混在一起抽？ or smashing up your mother's diet pills and smoking 'em in a pipe?
我不知道 I don't know. I don't know.
我很想知道，你认为这城市里究竟发生了什么 So I did want to get your thoughts
这是你的城市 about what's going on in this city. This is your city.
有很多争论说… There's a lot of controversy with...
也许荷兰人太过宽容了 maybe the Dutch are so tolerant
他们现在甚至在忍受“不宽容” that they're now tolerating intolerance.
和穆斯林社团之间气氛紧张 There's a lot of tension with the Muslim community.
这些都是原教旨主义者 It's all religious fundamentalists.
他们已经杀了Theo Van Gogh They already killed Theo Van Gogh,
一个有名的电视制作人 who was a known television maker.
这里就是Theo Van Gogh This is the spot where Theo Van Gogh
- 被刺杀的地点？ - 这就是事发地点 - was assassinated? - This is exactly the spot.
他是一个荷兰电影制作人，制作了一段十分钟的电影 He was a Dutch filmmaker. He made a 10-minute film.
深深地冒犯了穆斯林们 It was deeply offensive to Muslims.
噢，阿拉，你说男人们是保护者 Oh, Allah, you say that men are the protectors
是女人的守卫者 and maintainers of women
因为你给予了他们更多的力量 because you have given the one more strength than the other.
我曾在一周的时间里 I feel at least once a week,
饱尝我丈夫的拳头 the strength of my husband's fist
打在我脸上的力量 on my face.
很多人认为言论自由一直存在 Lots of people think that free speech
直到你们谈到了宗教 goes right up to this point and then when you're talking about religion,
直到你们谈到了先知，一切都不算数了 when you're talking about the Prophet, all bets are off.
这是不同的两方面，言论自由… It goes both ways, freedom of speech.
是不同的两方面，但人们实际上… It goes both ways, but the people who actually...
在宗教这一方面喜欢屠杀 usually do the killing for it wind up on the Muslim side.
你觉得这说明了什么文化的差异吗？ Do you think that says something about the different cultures?
我不能想像说穆斯林人民 I don't want to have the image of the Muslims,
当他们不喜欢什么东西 you know, if they don't like something you say,
他们就杀了你，因为事实不是这样的 they kill you, because it's not.
在丹麦驻英国使馆外，聚集了喧闹的人群 It was a noisy crowd outside the Danish embassy in London
发言者谴责了卡通先知莫罕默德画像 as speakers condemned the cartoons portraying the Prophet Mohammed.
我希望能在美国听到你的音乐， I wish I could get your music in America,
但是考虑到它在这里——英国所引起的争议… but considering how controversial it's been here in England...
最初当我做这张专辑的时候 Initially, when I did the record,
得到很多人支持， a lot of people supported it,
但我们真的做出来了 but then, in the current times that we're in,
人们又很害怕 people got really scared.
这显示了社会是多么愚蠢 It just shows the stupidity of society,
它拒绝去讨论 which refuses to discuss,
去理智地讨论 debate things in an intelligent way.
我不去反对它 And I don't except that.
我只是竖起我的中指 I just put my middle finger up.
你的一大观点，确有实据的… One of your big gripes... and it's a valid one...
你一直说，事实上，请让我读这段引述 you keep saying that... in fact, let me read your quote.
你说，“任何担心我言论的人 You said, "Anyone worried about what I'm saying
应该进入这场争论，你们可以持有异议 should get involved in the debate. You are allowed to dissent.
- 这是一项权力” - 是的 - That is a right." - Yeah.
但持有异见，对于伊斯兰教徒也是一项权力吗？ But is that a right in Islam, to dissent?
当然是的，否则为什么会有如此多学派？ Of course it is. Why do you think there's so many schools of thought?
- 为什么你认为… - 对萨尔曼·拉什迪来说就没有这样的权利 - Why do you think there's... - It wasn't a right for Salman Rushdie.
示威者们从海德公园出发 The demonstrators set off from Hyde Park,
伦敦市中心陷入停滞 bringing much of central London to a standstill.
他们的怨恨主要针对萨尔曼·拉什迪和他的书 Their hatred focused on Salman Rushdie and his book.
毛拉们通过上千的清真寺极力传达一个信息… The mullahs pressed home their message in thousands of mosques...
萨尔曼·拉什迪必须死 Salman Rushdie must be killed.
你看，萨尔曼·拉什迪是有意地 See, Salman Rushdie was there to provoke,
激怒、侮辱，不是吗？ insult, and he did it intentionally, right?
但他就应该为此而死？ But should you die for that?
不不，我是说，就像… No no, well, I mean, like, that was...
你知道，你很容易说 you know, it's easy for you to say
一件事是黑还是白 things are kind of in black and white.
事实总是更加复杂 They're more complex than that.
总是涉及到情感激情 There's emotions and passions
人生观 and philosophy involved
- 还有很多事 - 你只需说 - and all that stuff. - You know, all you gotta say is
一个人因写了一本书而受到死亡的威胁是不对的 it's wrong for someone to have to suffer a death threat
等等 - for writing a book. - Well, hang on.
但是显然事情要复杂地多 But apparently, it's more complicated than that.
是的，这是因为，我是说，西方人… Well, it is because... but I mean, Western...
我们从没直视对方 We'll never see eye to eye there,
你要用那种说法来保护你自己 but you want that protection for yourself.
不，我认为这种辩论实在是… No, I think these debates are a lot...
我希望站在事实的基础上来讨论，而不是虚假的东西 I'm willing to discuss 'em in terms of facts and not fictions.
现在你认为我说的虚假的 When you disagree with me, it's a fiction.
- 不，不 - 你拥有真理 - No no. - You have the truth
- 我拥有虚假 - 不，我不代表真理 - and I have the fiction. - No, I don't have the truth.
但你没有看到一种根本性的矫饰 But you don't see that there's a fundamental hypocrisy
你要求持有异议的权利 of you asking for the right to dissent
而有的人获得死亡的威胁？ and somebody else getting a death threat?
不不，我的异议是为了停止这种疯狂 No no, 'cause my dissent is to stop the madness.
我和Geert Wilders正在海牙 I'm here with Geert Wilders here in The Hague,
国际法庭的所在地 which of course is home to the World Court,
同时也是荷兰国会的所在 but also to the Dutch Parliament.
你对伊斯兰教持有强硬态度 You are taking a kind of hard line here
in the Netherlands.
伊斯兰教，对我来说，是一个暴力的宗教 Islam is, according to me, a violent religion.
古兰经是一本暴力的书 The Koran is a violent book
莫罕默德是一个暴力的先知 and Mohammed was a violent prophet.
你是否认为伊斯兰教众，想要掌管世界？ Do you think Islam wants to take over the world?
- 他们甚至对此不做掩饰 - 是的，是的 - They don't even make... - Right right.
...a secret about it.
我们是异教徒 We are infidels.
我们要么成为伊斯兰教徒，要么被杀掉 I mean, we should either become Islamic or we should be killed.
这是他们所说的，是他们引以为傲的 This is what they say. This is what they are proud of.
OK，我们先在在Habibi Ana （阿姆斯特丹的穆斯林同性恋酒吧） Okay, we're here at Habibi Ana.
- 我没说错吧？ - 没 - Did I say that right? - Yeah.
你们真是，我是说 You guys, really... I mean,
穆斯林同性恋积极分子 gay Muslim activists,
真是一份罕见的身份描述，你们非常有种 that is a very rare job description. You guys have balls.
你们的同性恋群体有多大… How big is the gay community...
在阿姆斯特丹的同性恋群体？ the gay Muslim community here in Amsterdam?
或者就是这些人了？ Or is this it?
我猜，周四… I mean, I'm guessing, Thursday isn't...
不是你们聚会的日子吧 isn't gay night here.
我希望你们能互相吸引 I hope you guys find each other attractive,
否则… 'cause otherwise...
你们不害怕吗？ you don't feel afraid?
在这里荷兰我不觉得 Here in Holland I'm not,
但在我的祖国，我非常怕 but when I came from my country, I was very afraid.
有一条法律是这样的： There was an article of law:
对同性恋处以一年监禁 Punish the gay for one year just because he's gay.
- 是同性恋就要被关？ - 只要是同性恋 - Just being gay can get you a year. - Just being gay.
阿拉巴马也一样 Same as Alabama.
据我所了解… What I learned is that they're not really...
他们不是特别针对同性恋 they're not specific against homosexuality.
不是特别针对，换句话说 They're not specific against, in other words,
一个男人对另一个男人的爱慕 the desire of a man for a man.
他们反对的是特定的行为 What they are against is specific behavior,
像肛交 like anal sex.
他们从不说同性恋，异性恋 They don't say homosexuality, heterosexuality.
他们只是不希望别人在那种地方做事 They just don't want you doing it in the naughty place,
那我想， which I guess,
如果你们把那种画面从同性恋中剔除掉 if you put that out of the picture in homosexuality,
那你们还剩什么？只有口交 what do you have left? Just the blowjob.
你怎么看人们说 What do you think when people say
它会影响你的记忆 it affects your memory,
特别是短期的记忆？ especially your short-term memory?
- 它会 - 那你怎么看人们说 - It does. - And what do you think when people say
那东西会影响你的记忆，短期的记忆？ that it affects your memory, your short-term memory?
是啊 It does.
- 我喜欢我的帽子 - 你看起来非常好 - I like my hat. - It's good. You look good, too.
我想我接受了我的形象 I think I do. I think I might adopt this look.
是的 Yes.
为什么你的帽子是黑的 Is there a reason why you have a black hat
而我的是白的？ and I have a white hat?
我们选择自己喜欢的颜色 We have any color you like.
所以我买了这顶，我自己喜欢 So I bought this. I like it myself
因为我喜欢这颜色 because I like the color.
过去大约五年间一直局势紧张 There is a lot of tension in the last five years or so.
伊斯兰教已经成为荷兰人价值观的威胁了吗？ Is Islam a threat to Dutch values?
伊斯兰教一直在宣讲 Islam is preaching,
和平是最重要的 above all, peace.
和平，和平，和平… Peace, peace and peace.
伊斯兰这名字的本意就是和平 The name Islam means peace.
可是它卷入了很多暴力和战争之中 And yet it is involved in a lot of war and violence.
是的，这些都是政治 Yeah, it's just all politics.
- 与宗教信仰无关？ - 没有 - Nothing to do with religion? - No no.
- 没有？ - 没有，先生 - No? - No, sir.
- 这是政治 - 这是政治 - It's political. - It's politics.
我看到有很多文章说 Seems to be a lot of passages
异教徒 that say the infidel
和信徒是不平等的 is not the equal of the believer.
异教徒死后将下地狱 The infidel will die in hell.
仇恨异教徒没有错 Don't feel bad about hating the infidel.
- 没有 - 没有？ - No. - No?
老兄，我全搞错了 Boy, I've got bad information.
我想是的 Yes, you have. I think so.
- No no no no no - No no no no - No no no no no. - No no no no.
- No no no no - No. - No no no no. - No.
No？No，我在所有事情上都错了？ No? No. I'm wrong about everything.
我所理解的古兰经不会让我们杀死异教徒 The way I perceive things in the Koran is not about killing infidels.
- 你真的读过到那些了？ - 我当然会读古兰经 - But you have read it in there? - Of course I've read the Koran.
你读了那些段落，会有什么感觉？ You've read those passages, and what did you think when you read them?
我将那些段落解释为 No, but I explain those passages within the time
在一定时期内的特殊现象 in which they emerged in the world.
人们不是这么看一本圣书的 That's not how people read holy books.
人们不会忽略圣书的内容 People don't read holy books and go,
“好吧，那是过去的事了。”人们读了圣书而将其忽略 "Well, that was good for then." People who read holy books and go,
“这是上帝的世界，这些是永恒的！” "This is the word of God. It's forever!"
- 不，我不同意 - 大多数人都会如此 - No, I don't agree. - That's how most people do it.
我不认为他们真的 I just don't buy it that these guys are
否定这些章节 in this state of denial.
我认为他们只是对外界这样否定 I think they're just in a state of denial to an outsider.
他们绝不对外承认他们的文化有什么问题 They will not admit anything is wrong with their culture to an outsider.
穆斯林们是帝国主义者 Muslims were imperialists
莫罕默德死后的一个世纪里 in the century after Mohammed's death.
他们征服了世界上大部分已知的土地 They conquered most of the known world
只用了一个世纪 in one century.
是的，有可能 Yeah, it is possible.
你将其称为征服 You call it conquer.
我认为他们是尝试着 I think they were trying
传播伊斯兰教 to spread Islam.
好吧，是的，但他们不是一边唱着“Kumbaya”一边传播的 Well, they were, but they weren't doing it by singing "Kumbaya."
不好意思 Excuse me.
对不起 Sorry.
哦，廿一世纪的东西总是突然蹦出来 Oh, that 21st century's always busting in.
我要把他关掉 I'm going to shut it off.
信息：什么命令？ 回复：杀死比尔马赫 lol:) I love it that he's got "Kashmir" as his ringtone.
Okay, I shut it off.
- Sorry, I was... - Yeah...
- 都只是政治 - 好的 Politics, okay.
比尔，你并不太聪明
你是否认为有可能说 Do you think it's possible that when we're on something
当我们在吸大麻或其他什么时 like marijuana or mushrooms
我们觉得自己有一种特殊的体验 and believe we're having a very spiritual experience,
仅仅是因为我们被麻醉了？ that we're just high?
- 其实… - 小心头发着火了 - It's... it's... - Oh, look out your head's on fire!
为什么不用电灯泡 Boy, talk about the light bulb going off,
- 你的头没事 - 我不喜欢蜡烛放在背后 - that was your whole head. - I don't like candles behind me.
哦，看，我发现了一个吸毒窝点 No. Oh, look, I found another joint.
嗯哦 Uh-oh.
耶路撒冷
我们能离得近些吗？ Can we get closer?
真是一堵了不得的墙 That is one hell of a wall.
这是耶路撒冷所罗门王庙的遗址
是耶路撒冷最热爆之地
但穆斯林在其上盖了大石圆顶清真寺 (Dome of Rock)
今天，犹太人不容许到圣殿山
这就是大石圆顶清真寺？ This is the Dome of the Rock?
是的，对伊斯兰来说， This is the Dome of the Rock. According to Islam...
这是莫罕默德升入天堂与真神会面之前所站的位置
骑着马？骑着马上天堂？ On a horse?
- 他让马在哭墙外 - 西墙
He went to heaven on the horse?
为什么对犹太人来说是神圣的？ Why is it holy for the Jews?
因为那石头是神庙的一部份
我想你走下到那石头，去看看
只需一分钟，从里面看看
快，快，快，请
你知道祈祷者的方向
因为你每次将自己…
当你开始祈祷时
你要知道如何正对着麦加，The Kaaba的方向
一颗石头，The Kaaba？ A rock. The Kaaba?
- 不不不 - 石头、大石，是一样的 Isn't that...
黑石头
Stone, rock, the same thing.
我们不知这石头的历史
- 为何是神圣的呢？ - 穆斯林相信这石头… Why is that holy?
来自天堂 Paradise.
这石头会不会是像殒石般呢？ Could the rock itself have been what we know now to be like a meteor?
它是黑色的，而这区域并无黑石头
和我们现在理解为殒星的 But does it make a difference that we now understand
是否有任何不同之处？ what a meteor is?
- 这是上帝之石 - 是，对的 Yes, right.
OK Okay.
这就是橄榄山 This is the Mount of Olives.
很多传统的犹太人想要葬在这里 A lot of Orthodox Jews want to be buried here,
因为他们相信当弥赛亚降临 'cause they believe that when the Messiah comes,
他将复活他们并带领他们 he will raise them from the dead and march them through
穿越黄金门，进入圣殿山 that golden gate and onto the Temple Mount,
这就是为什么穆斯林们用墙挡住了门 which is why the Muslims have walled up the gate.
想把犹太救世主 The better to keep out the Jewish Messiah
和他洁净的僵尸们挡在外边 and his kosher zombies from getting in.
尽管你会想，如果你有复活死尸的力量 Although you'd think that if you had the power to raise the dead,
为什么就没有越过围墙的力量呢 you'd have the power to jump a fence.
我可以在里面因我是穆斯林
我以为我不会被允许进入清真寺 I thought I would not be allowed to walk in a mosque.
我以为只有信穆斯林的人才会被允许进入 I thought only someone of your faith was allowed to do that.
不，我们伊斯兰教有足够的宽容来容忍非伊斯兰教的人进来看一看，提些问题
我并不认为这些犹太人有趣
他为什么生气？他生气是因为你在和我说话？ Why is he angry? They're angry that you're talking to me?
是的
我知道喜剧
他从来没有令我发笑过
他的节目有够烂
你们文化中的女人，和我们的文化中的女人相比，看起来不是那么平等 Women in your culture seem not to be as equal to the man as they are in our culture.
你看，我们有女人在这儿，她们有一个特别的角落 Yes.
今天我和一个穆斯林学者谈论过 I talked to a Muslim scholar today.
他说莫罕默德曾在这里参加一个会议 And he said that Mohammed had a meeting here.
当莫罕默德到这里…
与其他先知会面
和摩西、耶稣、亚伯拉罕等等…
莫罕默德从未驻足圣殿山 Mohammed never set his foot
一步也没有 on that Temple Mount, not even one foot.
从来没有 Never ever.
他从未来过以色列，这是历史真相 He was never in the land of Israel, that's a historical fact.
你知道，对穆斯林来说
你不能犹疑，你要接受这故事里的每一个词，每人个字
我想我也明白 I think even I understand that.
为什么不同信仰的人不能和平共处？ Why can't the people of the different faiths get along?
三个宗教的人共享这个场所 All three religions consider the same site
神圣地 to be holy.
该不会因为他被数次征服？ Is it not because it was conquered many times?
- 是的 - 这里首先被大卫王所征服 - Yes. - It was conquered first by King David,
后来的征服者来自 and then later by the armies coming out
阿拉伯沙漠 of the Arabian Desert.
- 在十字军东征时几度转手 - 我们有罗马 - It changed hands during the crusades. - We had the Romans.
有拜占庭、十字军、有波斯 We had the Byzantines. We had the Persians.
世界上不止一个清真寺 There's more than one mosque in the world
曾被作为教堂，更早时曾是圣殿 that used to be a church, and before that was a temple.
因为房顶上的标志很容易改变 Because it's a lot easier just to change the sign on the top
然后“在新的管理下” and say "under new management"
而不是重建建筑 than it is to change the whole building.
八十年代我曾在很多喜剧会所工作 I worked a lot of comedy clubs in the '80s
天花板上还挂着的士高闪光球 that still had the disco ball on the ceiling.
九十年代它们成了脱衣舞夜总会 And in the '90s, they became strip clubs
而现在，他们是Starbucks and now they're a Starbucks.
今天我来到了南英格兰的塞尼亚贝斯镇 I've come today to the village of Cerne Abbas in Southern England
给你们看些完全不同的东西… to show you something completely different.
一个裸体男人的外形 It's in the shape of a giant naked man
以相当大的尺寸画在山坡上，好吧，对于英格兰来说相当大 with a sizable erection... well, sizable for England.
有些人认为这代表着 Some people think that this means
一个巨人葬在山中 that there is a giant actually buried under that hill.
也有人认为这和麦田怪圈有关 Others think it has something to do with crop circles
或是古代外星访客，或是古代德鲁伊 or ancient space visitors or Druids,
但没有人知道真相 but nobody really knows.
这也是为何我对此非常着迷 And that's what I find fascinating about this,
实际上它不代表任何意思 is that it doesn't really mean anything.
几个世纪来本地人一直维护保养这它 The locals have been maintaining it for centuries,
而他们自己也不知道为什么 and they don't really know why.
他们这么做只是因为他们总是这么做 They just do it because they've always done it,
这对他们来说不就是种宗教吗？ and isn't that religion for you?
时而为之跪拜，时而为之禁食 Sometimes you kneel, sometimes you fast
时而你跑到山上 and sometimes you go up on the hill
在巨人的鸡巴旁边剪草 and you cut the grass around the giant space penis.
你是否相信现在众多基督徒所相信的 Do you believe, as so many Christians do nowadays,
世界将会终结？ that the world will end?
我觉得我们就在末世，有很多迹象 I think we are in the end times. There are many many signs.
如我们所知，世界将会迎来末日 The world as we know it will come to an end.
而在此之前 And beyond that,
耶稣基督将会再次辉煌地降临 there will be the glorious second coming of Jesus Christ.
这儿看起来很宁静 It seems peaceful,
但就在这个特殊的地点，很多基督徒相信 but this is the very spot where a lot of Christians believe
世界末日将会降临 life on earth will end.
而讽刺的是 The irony of religion is that because
由于宗教将人们转移到 of its power to divert man
破坏性的事业上 to destructive courses,
世界的确可能终结 the world actually could come to an end.
在这个国家很多人相信 A lot of people in this country believe
世界末日 in end times.
将会有最后的清算，The Rapture There will be this great reckoning, the Rapture.
- 你相信吗？ - 相信 - Do you believe that? - I do.
既然你相信世界末日将会来到 But if you believe that the world is gonna come to an end,
或者为期不远 and perhaps any day now,
我们是否需要浪费精力 does it not drain one's motivation
来改进我们在地球上的生活？ to improve life on earth while we're here?
激进的看法是，宗教必须消亡 The plain fact is, religion must die
为了人类的生存 for mankind to live.
已经没有多少时间可以用来等待 The hour is getting very late to be able to indulge
那些信徒们做出关键的决定 in having key decisions made by religious people,
不能等待那些非理性主义者，等待那些指挥着船只航行的人 by irrationalists, by those who would steer the ship of state
不以指南针为依据，而依据对鸡内脏的解读 not by a compass, but by the equivalent of reading the entrails of a chicken.
乔治布什对于伊拉克祈祷的太多 George Bush prayed a lot about Iraq,
学到的太少 but he didn't learn a lot about it.
我不了解政治 I don't know that much about politics,
我是为布什的信仰投票 I'll vote for President Bush because of his faith.
信仰，是一种不经思考的美德 Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking.
完全不值得夸耀 It's nothing to brag about.
而那些宣扬信仰，传播信仰的人 And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it
是我们聪明的奴隶主 are our intellectual slaveholders,
将人民奴役于 keeping mankind in a bondage
幻想和荒谬 to fantasy and nonsense
由是衍化并诞生了 that has spawned and justified
太多疯狂与毁灭 so much lunacy and destruction.
宗教的危险在于 Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings
它让人们放弃思考他们所做的一切 who don't have all the answers to think that they do.
多数人视其为善，当有人说 Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says,
“我会的，主啊，我会完成一切你所给予的使命” "I'm willing, Lord. I'll do whatever You want me to do."
只可惜事实上从来没有什么上帝在和我们交流 Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us,
取而代之的是人们自己的腐败 that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions,
- 限制，与协商 - 事情就这样发生了 - limitations and agendas. - It's going to happen,
我没有说一定是核武器… and I'm not saying necessarily nuclear...
上帝没有说一定是核武器… The Lord didn't say nuclear...
但我相信必然是类似的事情 but I do believe it'll be something like that.
那些人告诉你说他们知道 And anyone who tells you they know...
实际上只知道你死后会发生什么 they just know what happens when you die,
我向你保证，这是你唯一不知道的 I promise you, you don't.
我为何如此确定？因为我不知道 How can I be so sure? Because I don't know,
你们并不拥有什么我没有的精神力量 and you do not possess mental powers that I do not.
对于人来说唯一合适的态度… The only appropriate attitude for man to have
面对那些终极问题 about the big questions
并不是傲慢的肯定 is not the arrogant certitude
那是宗教的标志 that is the hallmark of religion,
而应是怀疑，怀疑是谦虚的 but doubt. Doubt is humble,
那才是一个人应该有的态度 and that's what man needs to be,
人类的历史不过是 considering that human history is just a litany
一篇追求邪恶与愚蠢的冗长祷文 of getting shit dead wrong.
耶稣将会回来拯救犹太人 Jesus is coming back to rescue the Jews,
因为他是唯一能这么做的人 because he is the only one that can.
信者进天堂 The believer goes in the paradise.
不信者下地狱 Unbeliever, they will go to hell.
犹太人是唯一的理由，而我是一名基督徒 The Jews are the only reason that I am a Christian.
- 我爱他们 - 但是你不能 - I love them. - But you're not gonna take them
- 带他们一起进天堂，是吗？ - 我将接受 Rapture - to heaven with you, are you? - I'm gonna go in the Rapture,
我将骑着一匹白马归来 and I'm gonna come back on a white horse.
“在那些日子，人要求死，决不得死；愿意死，死却远避他们”
启示录9:6
“最后时刻不会到来，除非血流成河”
穆斯林圣训41:6903
“赞美亚拉…审判日的主人”
那么你认为耶稣将会在某一刻回来 So you think Jesus will end this earth at some point,
也可能在你还活着的时候？ maybe in your lifetime?
我常怀有这愿望：这儿有个迹象，那儿有个迹象 One always hopes. This is a sign, and that is a sign.
核弹爆炸 If a nuclear bomb went off,
而这看起来就像他所说的 and it seemed like that was exactly what it had said,
火焰之球或其他什么 balls of fire or something,
你不将其看作是什么坏事 you wouldn't look on that as necessarily a bad thing.
我知道我将和上帝在一起 I know I'll be with God.
这就是为什么理性的人们 This is why rational people,
宗教反对者 anti-religionists,
必须忘掉他们的胆怯 must end their timidity and come out of the closet
站出来声明自己的观点 and assert themselves.
而那些持中庸态度的人 And those who consider themselves only moderately religious
真的需要照照镜子反省一下 really need to look in the mirror and realize
宗教给你带来宽慰与快乐 that the solace and comfort that religion brings you
同时也会让你付出沉痛的代价 actually comes at a terrible price.
传言在末世将会有战争 It says in the last days there'll be wars, rumors of wars.
圣经中启示录的预言 The Bible prophesies from the Book of Revelation...
正在被一一实现！ they're going to be fulfilled!
可以无暴力地实现它吗？ Can this be accomplished without violence?
- 不 - 伊斯兰统治世界 - No. - Islam ruling the world,
全球圣战 global jihad.
- 谁将最终胜利？ - 我们会取胜 - Who will win out? - We'll win.
那是上帝在审判日所要做的事 That's for God to decide on Judgment Day.
“愿主耶稣的恩惠，常与众圣徒同在，阿们”
启示录22:21
“赞美亚拉…审判日的主人”
开端章1:2-4
如果你属于的政党或社会团体 If you belonged to a political party or a social club
有着太多偏见，歧视女性 that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny,
歧视同性恋者，宣扬暴力 homophobia, violence
或是像宗教般无知 and sheer ignorance as religion is,
你应该与其决裂，并反对它 you'd resign in protest.
而另一种做法，你将会成为帮凶 To do otherwise is to be an enabler,
一个黑手党的妻子 a Mafia wife,
带着邪恶的极端主义 with the true devils of extremism
站在千万追随者的头顶上，宣扬着自己的正统 that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers.
如果世界终将在什么时候毁灭 If the world does come to an end here or wherever,
或是在什么宗教战争，核武器，或是恐怖主义的摧残下挣扎前行 or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of a religion-inspired nuclear terrorism,
让我们记住真正的问题是什么： let's remember what the real problem was:
当我们在摆脱精神混乱或希望如此之前，我们先学会了毁灭人类 That we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it.
正是如此 成长，或死亡 That's it. Grow up or die.
取得核子武器以防卫穆斯林是一个宗教责任 ——奥沙马本拉登
我们处在一场邪恶与正义的战斗中 We are in a conflict between good and evil.
天堂见！ See you in heaven.
谁知道呢？ Who knows?
正是啊 Yeah, exactly.