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yeah i'm ready
creativity
code share its april twentieth nineteen ninety five this is the uh...
smithsonian interviewing for a speedy trials
prepared community and steve wilson background of paragraph of the promotion
terrorists so that uh... maneuvering repair you've got your family
care about the memories
uh... i was born in san cisco california
u_s_a_
uh...
planet earth
time
february twenty fourth nineteen fifty-five
i can go to a lot of details of my youth but i'll know that anybody really care
about that too much were more than three hundred years does all the scripts for
the disintegrate character a little bit about your parents or family hopefully
early singer
uh...
fifty five hours and hours for the president and i don't remember him but
uh... i do remember growing up in that cancer that look very late fifties early
sixties
varies
interesting time
in the united states of america america was sort of its chemical
of post-world war two prosperity of thinking
everything had been
fairly straight and narrow
um...
from haircuts to
to culture
in every way and it was just starting to come to broaden into the sixties where
things were going to start expanding out new directions
but hadn't quite
gone that way in
everything was still very successful
very young american seemed very
very young naive in many ways to me
uh... for my memories of that time
uh... so you would have been about for over six years old john kevin's right i
remember john kennedy being assassinated i remember the date that the the exact
moment i heard that he had been shot where were you when i was with walking
across the grass of my schoolyard going home at about
three in the afternoon
and uh... somebody yelled out that the president and shot
and kills
uh...
and i'm tired outside must have been about seven or eight years old and i
guess
and uh... i knew exactly what it meant
also remember very much the uh...
the cuban missile crisis
uh...
height probably didn't sleep for three or four nights
because i was afraid if i went to sleep i wouldn't wake up
and i i absolutely even a tiger said when i was so that sixty-seven years old
old yeah again i understand zack it was going on i think everybody did it
and it was a really a tear that
that i will never forget my life and probably has never really left
uh...
and i think
debt everyone felt it
at that time
uh... you know
those of us who are older begins
making plans rem in strange strange song
one of the things we're trying to get a handle on means
sort of passion and power
early things that you were pressured the bunker really interested in
that uh...
if i was very lucky i had a father
mean poll
who
was uh... a pretty remarkable man
he was
he'd never graduated from high school
he joined the coast guard in world war two and
ferried troops around the world for general tab but i guess
and he
i think he was always getting into trouble and getting busted down to
what's private i think it's the lowest right now
but uh...
he was a machinist by trade
and uh...
worked very hard and it wasn't coming genius was hands
any other workbench out in the garage where
when i was about
five or six he sectioned off a little piece of unsaid steve this is you are
workbench now any
gave me some of this
smaller tools you know
showed me how to use a hammer sawant
had a build things
and uh...
eerily
was very good for me
you know we spent a lot of time with me teaching me how to build things take
things apart put things back together
one of the things that he
touched upon was electron ics
uh...
he did not have a
uh... a deeper understanding of electronics of self-pity
he uh...
heating countered electronics a lot in automobiles and other things that he
would fix so
he showed me the rudiments of electronics and i got very interested in
and uh...
dennis that i grew up in silicon valley
parents moved from san cisco two
mountain view when i was five my dad got transfered
and uh...
that was right in the heart of silicon valley
uh... so they were engineers kind of all around in silicon valley at that time
was still orchards for the most part newspaper cut orchards and proven
orchards
and it was really paradise
i remember they're not being
on pot
i remember almost every day that they're being crystal clear
we could see from one end of the valley to the other
princes william six seven yet eight years old reference akeli
and was it was really the most wonderful place in the world to grow up
there was a man of moved in down the street maybe about six or seven houses
down the block who
was new in the neighborhood with his wife
and uh... it turned out he was an engineer hewlett packard and he was a
ham radio operator really will attract
and what he did too
get to know the kids on the block was a rather strange thing he put out a
a carbon microphone and a battery in a speaker
on his driveway where you could talk into the microphone in your voice we get
amplified on the speaker
i'm strange thing to do is move into a neighborhood but that's what he did
cannot i have coursing started mess around the side always been taught that
you needed any amplifier
to amplify the voice of a microphone
for to come out of speaker via my father taught me that so i went home and
proudly announced my father these all wrong on that
this man at the block was campbell find voice with just a battery
my father told me i don't know what i was talking about we ended very large
arguing about the site dragon down and
showed in this and he
himself was a little befuddled uh...
and i i i got to know this man whose name was larry lang
and uh...
he taught me a lot of electronics to
he was great
and he used to build you know he kits which they don't really have any more
but he kids will really great
uh... unity these uh... he fits with ease
these products that you would bargain shit four you've got to pay more money
for them and you would
if you just went bought the finished product
if it was available abut bc fits would come with detailed manuals and
on how to put this thing together and all the parts would be laid out in a
certain way in color coded in
he actually built this thing yourself
and i would say that gave that they gave one several things he gave one
understanding of
what was inside the finished product and how it worked as it would all included
theory of operation
maybe even more importantly
you can get a war in the sense
that one
could build the things that once all around
oneself in the universe and you see
these things were not mysteries anymore we looked at
a television set
you think well i i haven't built one of those but i could
there's one of those and he could catalog i built to other key cats
so i can build television set
i could build and nothing in things became much more
clear that they were the results of human creation
not these
magical things that just appear in one's environment and one had no knowledge of
their interiors
it gave more tremendous degree of self-confidence
that's respiration and learning one could understand
seemingly very complex things in one's environment
and uh...
so you know i i was about one child was proportionate way
night i've left on the school
it sounds like you're really lucky to have your dead as both the sort of a bid
for uh... over here as i was going to ask you about school
what was uh... what was the formal solicit your education like this law as
it was a pretty hard for me at the beginning my
my mother taught me how to read
before i got to school and so
when i got their i'd really just wanted to do two things i wanted to read books
reading books and i wanted to go outside and chase butterflies will thanks
by girls like to do
and aya countered uh... authority
of a different kind of everything and for did not like it
and a they really
they almost got me they really almost they came this close to the really
beating
any curiosity adeyemi by the time i was in third grade i'd had a
a good buddy of mine rick guarantee no on the only way we had fun was to create
mischief
we used to do things like uh...
well i remember one time we traded everybody that there was a big bike
referee
put their bikes maybe a hundred bikes this bike trek we traded everybody
our law combinations for there's an individual basis and went out one day
and
put everybody's watching reveals his bike and it took until about ten o'clock
at night to get all the bikes unsorted
stuff like that we set up explosives and teachers desks and stuff in
it was it was pretty seriously get kicked out of school life
in fourth grade i encountered one of the other sense of my life which was uh...
they discover their way to put me in the sky rick thirteen of the same
fourth-grade class in the principal said at the last minute know who know
that idea separate them
this teacher missus wilson all taking one of them and she taught the advanced
fourth-grade class in thank god i was that
the random wanaka got put in her class
and uh...
she watched me for about two weeks and she then approach which is this the you
know i'll tell you what i a m
i'll make a deal
i have this math workbook
and if you take it home
and finish it
on your own without any help
you bring it back to me if you get it
eighty percent right
i will give you five dollars and one of these really big sucker she bought she
held up finding these giant thanks
and i look better like
are you crazy lady thought that was ever done this before
cannot course i did it and
she basically bribed me back in the learn
uh... with with
with uh... candy and money in
and what was really remarkable was that you know before very long i had such a
respect for her that
i'd sort of re-ignited my desire to learn
she was remarkable sheehan she got me kits for making cameras you know i
ground my own lands and made a camera and and and was
it was really quite wonderful
uh... and i think i probably weren't
more
academically that one year than it ever learned in my life
and it was he was it created problems though because
when i got out of fourth grade
they've wanted they tested me any decided to put me in high school
and my parents said no
thank god
they said he could skip one grade but that's all
but not the but could not possibly heard uh... and i found skipping one grade
you know to be very troublesome anyways
uh... that so i i was plenty enough from and uh...
but it did to create some problems
is uh...
uh... over the governments of the world war two buttons seems as if the push to
talk about
your experience in that workgroup from mistake that had uh... major in impact
on
on you own
interest in education because
you need more than computers and solution
computers education
it's going to you
itself
i'm sure it did but
you know
i'm a very
i'm a very big believer in equal opportunity
as opposed to equal outcome
i don't believe in equal outcomes 'cause unfortunately life's not like that to be
pretty boring place it was
but i really believe in equal opportunity equal opportunity to me
more than anything
a grade education
probably you know the second maybe even more important is a great family life
but i don't know how to do that nodded his head
it pains me because we do know how to do provided grade education we really do
we got our act together
we can make sure that
every young
child in this country
got a great education
and
we fall far short of that
and i know from my own education
if i hadn't encountered
two or three
individuals
that spent extra time with me
i'm sure
i would have been in jail
i'm a hundred percent sure
if it hadn't been for missus ciller fourth grade and few others
but it may be an especially her
i'm absolutely would have ended up jail
and i'd like you you know i could see those tendencies and myself
too
have a certain energy dot
do something in a it could've been directed to doing something
interesting
you know other people thought was a good idea we're going to be interesting other
people didn't like some if we're going to do and and so
you know i think
when you're young a little bit of course correction goes a long way
and i think it takes
pretty talented people to do that
and i don't
know that enough of them get attracted to go into public education
you can support a family
uh... on what you pay
and if you're smart nice repealed some be smart too
you want to turn your kids over to them for the majority there
their childhood
new majority they're waking hours in their childhood are spent
not with your parents but with your teachers for
unlike the people that are teaching my kids
should be good enough that they could get a job
at the company i work for making a hundred thousand dollars a year
why should they work in a school for thirty five forty thousand dollars a
year figure get a job here two hundred thousand dollars a year i mean that's
not an incident intelligence test anne celtic
i think we should
basically be hiring them in paying them a hundred thousand dollars you but the
problem there of course is the unions
the use of the worst thing ever happened education
um...
because it's not a meritocracy
it turns into a bureaucracy which is exactly what's happened
and teachers can teach in administrators are
run the place
and nobody can be fired it's terrible
thought some so i wouldn't say that uh... that this new technology maybe
the networking maybe a wait-and-see
bypass
are you up to a lot but i actually don't believe that as you pointed out i
probably help put more computers and more schools and
anybody else in the world
up until this point i'm not absolutely convinced
that is
by no means the most important thing
now the most important thing
another person
another person that insights your curiosity that guide your curiosity
that feeds your curiosity
and machines cannot do that in the same way people can
the the the elements of
of discovery are around you you don't need a computer to know mean
was at fault
you know why
nobody knows why
nobody in the entire world's knows why that falls we can describe it pretty
accurately
but no one knows why
idoney computer
to get the kid interest in uh...
to spend a week
playing with gravity and trying to understand it and come up with reasons
why
which if you need a person
you do need a person
especially with computers the way they are no the where they are now computers
are very reactive
but they're not
they are not proactive they are not agents if you will
they are very reactive so
uh... ni what children needed something
much more proactive
and they need god
they don't need uh... an assistant
and
i think we have the materials solve this problem in the world's just being
deployed in other places
and i i have been
very strong
believer that what we need to do in education
is go to the full valter system analysis of what you
blares out as well i care a great deal often this is exactly what we care ok
traces of this was before either of us is that it was a preemptive move one of
the things that i i feel
uh... is that
right now
you know if you ask who are the customers of education
the customers of education are the society at large
employers that hire people
right things like that
but ultimately i think the customers of the parents
not even the students with the parents
the problem that we have in this country
that the customers want way
the customer stopped paying attention to their schools for the most part
twenty two kids to do
what what happened was is that mother started working
and he didn't have time to spend the p_t_a_ meetings and watching their kids
will
schools became much more institutionalized
parents spent
less and less and less time involved in their kids' education
what happens when a customer goes away
annemun awfully
gets control which is what's happened in our country
is that the service level almost always goes down
i remember seeing a bumper sticker when the telephone company was all one
eighteen t the bell system
i member sina
of a bumper sticker with the the bell logo on it
and said we don't care we don't have to you
pickup
and that's what a monopoly is
that's why do you know was in the day and that's certainly what this the
public school system is they don't have to care
it turns out
literacy economics
the most expensive thing most people by in their lives as a house
second most expensive thing
zipcar usually
and a car cost
average cars possibly about twenty thousand dollars now sixteen twenty
thousand dollars
an average car lasts about what eight years
funded by another one
so
approximately ah...
year two thousand dollars a year
from eight your commitment
child goes to school
rights uh... approximately
eight years in k trades nitride he don't like to switch schools spent eight your
commitment
what is the state of california spend per pupil per year
and a public school villain
what they spend per year per pupil is about forty four hundred dollars
about twice as over twice as much as a car
it turns out that when you go to buy a car
you have a lot of information available to you to make a choice and you have a
lot of choices
general motors and ford in toyota and chrysler nissan their advertising in the
like crazy i can't get through a day without seeing five car s
and they seem to be able to make these cars efficiently enough
that they can afford
to take some of my money and advertise other people with so that everybody
knows all about these cars in the keep getting better and better and better
checks a lot of competition was a word
and there's a warranty that's right
but in schools
people don't feel like they're spending their own
they feel like it's forty
all right
no one does any comparison shopping
perfect if you want to put your kid in a private school you can't take the forty
four hundred dollars a year and the public school and use it
yet to come up with
you know if i were six thousand dollars of your own earning forty four hundred
dollars a year on money
orval i'd believe very strongly
the country
game each parents uh...
voucher check for forty four hundred dollars that they could only spent
at any accredited school
several things would happen number one schools would start marketing themselves
like crazy parents to get students
secondly
i mean you see a lot of new school start i've suggested as an example to get it
stanford business school that the public policy track they could start a
school administrator track so you can get a bunch of
people coming out of college tying up with some he's got a business going to
be starting around schools for you've got twenty five-year-old kids out of
college very idealistic full of energy
instead of starting silicon valley company that starts school
and i believe they would do far better than any of our public school teachers
do
the third thing you see
is i'd believe that you would see the quality of schools
again just like in a competitive market start to rise
some schools go broke a lot of the public schools would go broke
there's no question about it being rather painful for the first
several years in deservedly so and but i think far less people than the kids
going through the system as it is right now
and some people the biggest complains of course that
schools would pick off all the good kids and all the bad kids would be left
to walla together in either a
in l_a_ private school or the remit remnants of the public school
to me that's like saying well
all the car manufactures economic b_m_w_'s and mercedes is a nobody's
going to make a ten thousand dollar car well
i think the most hotly competitive market right now is that ten thousand
dollar car area you've got with all the japanese playing that you've got general
motors that spent five billion dollars subsidizing saturn
so far
so they can continue networking dept ford which is just introduced two new
cars in that market
you've got chrysler with the neon
the blue spending thirty two thousand they're doing a five hundred dollar
used-car in some cases
the
the market competition model seems to indicate
that where there is a need
there's a lot of providers willing to tailor their products
to fit that need and a lot of competition which keeps forcing them to
get better and better
i think the problems we've got our used to think when i was in my twenties that
technology was the solution and most of the world's problems
and unfortunately it itself
it's it's sort of a good to be an allergy
a lot of times we think wise television programming so that
wire television show so
so
demeaning
so uh...
so poor
the first thought decreased use well there's a conspiracy that this is the
networks are feeding us this locked
uh... because it's cheap to produce because of this because of that it's the
networks that are controlling us and they're feeding us this stuff
to try to dumb down the american public but the truth of the matter of course if
you
if he studied in depth
is the networks
absolutely want to give people what they want
so they watch the shows
if people wanted something different
they would get it
and the truth of the matter is
this shows that are on television on television because that's what people
want
the majority of the people in this country want to turn on the television
and turn off the brain
and that's what they get
and that's far more depressing the conspiracy
it's my conspiracies are much more fun than
the truth of the matter
which is that the vast majority american public reprieve mindless most the time
uh...
i think the school situation
is equally there's a parallel here when it comes to technology it is so much
need more hopeful
to think that technology can solve the problem is that
are really more human
and more organizational
and more political in nature
and itself
we need to attack these things that the route which is people
and how we help much freedom we give people the people of the competition
that will attract the best people
unfortunately the side effect of pushing out
forty six year old teachers that lost their spirit
fifteen years ago and shouldn't be teaching right now
i think uh... i'd feel very strongly about this
and i wish it was a simple is
giving every kid a computer buddy or them
cooler temperatures to talk about it
uh... approach
triplet victories that they should
uh... city n_e_a_ will like crap
in order to make sure that we can get covered
and uh... one of the things was about uh... of the books about
uh... wife and uh... career uh... so much has been written about you rather
than didn't go over a lot of uh...
those stories
to ask you if there are any of those books the or which one do you think is
the best and and the fare estimate there there are aspects that are that of your
career that you could have been left out that you'd like to have addressed
i'd have to
tell you truly are i'm pretty ignorant about that as i have a great idea
uh... library to progress can one one-time and the first page
asking one maybe read about ten percent of it
tonight i read the first page of another
it got my birthday bound by a year
draco if they can you get this right then this is probably not worth reading
the one that i scams
i remember which one it was
you know i i've always considered part of my job was
to keep
the quality level of people in organizations i work with very high
what i consider one of the
few things i actually
you know can contribute individually myself
uh... versus the team that i work with is
is to really
tried it
instill in the organization
the goal of having only eight players
because
in the field that i mean like in a lot of fields the difference between uh...
may be a uh...
of goods
the worst taxi cab driver and the best taxicab driver to ditch across town
manhattan
might be two-to-one
that's when i get you there in fifteen minutes were solution half an hour
oran
you know the best uh...
the best cook in the worst coat maybe it's three-to-one
pick something like that
most things in life the best
you know post person the worst post person
the feel that i'm in
big difference software particular the difference between
the best person in the worst person
is about a hundred to one
or more
the difference between a good software person
and a great software person
is probably fifty to one twenty five to fifty one
huge dynamic range
and therefore i have found him not just in softly almost everything i've done
your really pays to go after the best people in the world
painful
very painful when you have some people bitter
not the best people in the world we have to get rid of the time
i found
maya job
has sometimes been exactly that
to get relive some of the people who didn't measure
and i've always try to do in a humane way but nonetheless it has to be done
it's not a refund
is that the voters to most people part of engineer company
your political share
and itself but i i i
you know at times i've been pretty hard about it
and a lot of times people haven't wanted to leave and i have given a choice is
if somebody wanted to write a book about me
most of my friends would never talk to them
but they could go fine
you know the handful of a few dozen people that i fired of my life
that hated my guess
and that was certainly cases one book i skim and he was just
let's let's throw the darts team man
uh... you know such as life and that's that
through the world i chosen to live in
campaign like that part of it enough by the scapegoat have so i'm willing to put
up with that
uh... i certainly fiber accurate
okay
does that this was a golden opportunity then to from what he told her room
of bone story for for a while
about it
couple questions i wanted to ask you about uh... specifically uh... uh...
about your experiences apple looking back do you julia
um...
in your own view reader drew
the accomplishments that was proud of
couple of apple stories that you really like to tell
lap or was this incredible journey honey wheat
needed some amazing things they're uh...
the thing that bound us together apple
was not
it was it was
the ability to make things that we're gonna change the world
i was very important to all of us
we were all pretty young averages the company was you know
mid to late twenties
and uh...
we were you know hardly anybody had family system at the beginning and we
all work like maniacs and uh...
the greatest joy was
we felt we were fashioning sort of collected works of art much like uh...
you know twentieth-century physics training uh... you know something
important it would last a lot of people contribute to
we could actually then after
in a very few people could engineer these things
but then they could give 'em to more people who could as an example
build an automated factories build them and then
they couldn't even more people who could use them
the amplification factor was very large mean in doing the macintosh is an
example of a program
less than a hundred people to do the math
and yet apples ship well over ten million of them so
and of course everybody's copied it so if you look at what's really happening
hundreds of millions at this point i'm
um... that's pretty large amplification
than a million to one
and it's not often in your life that you get the opportunity
to amplify your
values
a hundred to one
a million to one
and and that's really what we were doing a mean if you look at what we did
what we tried to do was to say
computation and how it relates to people
is really its infancy here
we are in the right place at the right time to change the course of that vector
a little bit
and what's interesting is if you change the course of actor near its origin you
know but i think it's a few miles out its way a difference
and we were very cognizant of the staff
really from almost the beginning apple that we
for some incredibly lucky reason
fortunate enough to be at the right place at the right time
to do this
so the contributions that we tried to make embodied
values
that were not only
of technical excellence and innovation which i think we did certainly are
share of
innovation in it more humanistic way
uh... the things i'm most proud about
of apple or were those two things came together as an example
in uh... publishing
the macintosh basically revolutionized publishing and printing
and it was because of that
typographic artistry
coupled with the technical
understanding and excellence to implement
that electronically
coming t_-bills two things coming together
things coming together where people didn't have to understand arcane
computer commands to use the computer
so it was a combination of those two things that i'm most proud of it happen
on the apple too
and happened
on the lease although
there were other problems with the resubmit
caused to be a market failure and it happened again big time with the
macintosh
you used an interesting work when you were describing what you're doing
uh... returned your books
dot engineering
bearing not science unit
talk about that for them
shirt act
you know i'd
believe that that distinction between a
uh... we generally use the word artist to mean visual artist of some sort
but i actually think there's really very little distinction between artist
of that type
and a scientist or engineer of the highest calibre
uh... and i've never had a distinction in my mind between those two types of
people
they just to needed people to pursue different paths
basically kinda headed to the same goal
which is to express
some
something of that
of what they perceived to be the truth around so that others could see it
so those can benefit by it and the artistry is in the audience of the
solution charming
that
no i think the artistry is in this isn't having an insight
into what one
sees around and generally putting things together in ways that no one else has
and finding a way to express that to other people who don't have that same
insights that they can
get some of the advantage of that inside that makes them feel a certain way or
allows them to do a certain things
and uh...
i think that uh...
certainly a lot of folks on the macintosh team
uh... were capable of doing that and tim exactly that
and if you if you study these people will get more what you find was
in this particular time i don't know how the interview has been
certainly in the in them
in the seventies and eighties
fifth the best people in computers
would have normally been poets and writers musicians and almost all of them
were musicians
uh...
a lot of reports on the side
and they went into computers because it was so kam
because it was fresh and new it was at the new medium of expression of their
creative talents
and the feelings of the passion
people put into it
were completely
indistinguishable from
from uh... poet or a painter
completely indistinguishable
and i think
uh... there was a tremendous amount of uh...
in a lot of people also worked
were fairly sharp people or maybe we
fairly inward people
who put a lot of their
expression about how they
felt about
other people or the rest of humanity in general into their work
that other people would use
a lot of people put a lot a lot of in these products in a lot of expression
there
appreciation
into these things
uh... it's hard to explain of special other than uh... than the true sense
so
it's uh...
think this is this is this is becoming less true unfortunately the computer
industries in a very critical juncture
where
those people are clearly leaving the field
what are they doing
well
through it going
hard to say it's they're not being
spare not being attracted by something else they're being driven out of the
computer business
and being driven out of the computer business
uh...
because the computer business is becoming a monopoly
with microsoft
and
uh... without getting into whether microsoft gained this position legally
or not
uh... who cares
uh... the end product of the position is that
ability to innovate in the industry is being sucked out
dry
and i think
uh...
the smartest people or have already
seeing some of the writing on the wall in our
starting to fix it
uh... and i think some of the smartest young people are
question whether they're going to even get in
uh... hopefully things will change over time but i think it's it's a
commodore
dark period right now
uh... or entering that
well apple
heard uh... repetitions a company that
that absolutely
broke a mole
seven some wars
looking that
where you are today with next ah...
do you think
with what you know know that there's appleton big uh... it could have
sustained
original approach
or does it have to become uh... extender
whatever contribute money question apple did grow big insisting that approach
when i left out it was a billion-dollar company that's not too small we were
fortunate three hundred and something
like three hundred and fifty of the largest company in the country
uh...
you know when the mac was introduced we were a billion dollar corporation
apple you know grew from
nothing to two billion dollars when i was there that's a pretty high growth
rate
and if you know who ecu five times since i left basically on the back of the
macintosh so i i think what's happened since i left in terms of growth rate's
been
good trivial compared with
what it was like when i was there
noble rude apple
uh...
wasn't
growth what mood apple was values
john sculley learned apple
uh... and he ruined it by bringing a set of values to the top of apple which were
corrupt
and that corrupted some of the top people that were there
drove out some of the ones that were not corrupt the bowen brought in more
corrupt ones
and paid themselves
literally collectively
tens of hands of millions of dollars
and cared
really more about their own
glory and wealth and they did about
what built apple in the first place
making
rate
computers
for people to use
they didn't care about that anymore
they didn't have a clue
how to do it
taking time to find out 'cause that's not what they cared about
he cared about making a lot of money
and so they had this wonderful thing that a lot of very
brilliant people made
called the macintosh
they got very greedy
and instead of following the original trajectory of the original vision which
was that
make this thing appliance to get this out there this many people as possible
went for profits and they made
outlandish profits for about four years
most profitable companies in america for four years
and what that cost them
was their future
because we what they should have been doing
is making rational profits
and going for market share which is what we'd always tried to do
and and macintosh would have a thirty three percent market share right now
maybe even higher
maybe it would've been microsoft
but will never know
and now it's got a single digit market share and falling
and there's no way to ever get that moment i'm back
the macintosh will die
in another few years
and it's really sad
uh... and
the problem is is that the
the recipe for how to create the next macintosh
no wanted apple has a clue
because no one running any part of apple was there when the macintosh was made
or any other product that apple they've just been living off that one thing out
for
over a decade
and the last attempt was the newton and you know what happened to that so
it's kind of tragic but
as on emotionally as i can be
uh...
that's what's happening
and unless somebody pulls a rabbit out of a hat
these things companies that have long glide slopes because of the install
basis sir
apples just gliding down the school i'd slow
they're losing market share per year
and uh...
thing starts the spiral once you get under certain threshold
developers no longer right applications for your computer so
defends really starts to spiral down
federal this obviously um... there's obviously still a lot of uh... bushel
attachment to musher too that i want happily reverend
keep shipping great products forever
me apple could have been a
apple waters for awhile like as somebody
it was the place that made the cool stuff
is there a day at home
is there used to whole or
uh...
of share or story that that you could tell that
that's so to that
in your mind exemplifies
what the company's performance brands
at its best
before
but what customers we were using the apple products when you were there there
were two
to find two customers in the
basically apple was sort of
there was the educational aspects of apple
than they were sort of the
the nine education on the manage occasional site
you know afterwards
was two things one it was the first lifestyle computers and macintosh was
the first wipes out of here
secondly in really
it's hard to remember
how bad it was you know nineteen early eighties
with ibm taking over the world with the pc with toss out there
it was it was far worse than the apple too
may try to copy the apple too and they dont three dead job that you needed to
know a lot
and some things work of slipping backwards and macintosh was
you saw the nineteen eighty four commercial
yet but i hope you have any archive
mcintosh was basically this is a
relatively small company
you know in cupertino california taking on
the goliath i_b_m_ saying wait a minute your way is wrong
this is not the way we want computers to go this is not the legacy we want to
leave this is not what we want our kids to be learning
this is wrong and we are going to show you
the right way to do it
and here it is it's called macintosh and this is so
much better
it's gonna be cheap
and we are going to do it
and that's what apple stood for
was that
iras or is it
and that was one of the things the other thing
wise you can go further back in time
you apple choose
one of the things he built apple was schools buying apple trees but even so
their words
i think only about ten percent of the schools that had a computer even one
computer in them
in nineteen seventy nine i think it was
when i grew up high was began lucky because i was in silicon valley when i
was
twelve i think i saw my first computer tended tenor let maybe eleven twelve
nasa ames
and uh... it was a if i can see the computer assault on the lawn there was
directly computer in the end of the wire
and i fell in love with it i saw my first desktop computer hewlett packard
which was one of their this call the ninety one hundred eight was the first
first estelle computing world grand basically p_p_l_
and i thought well but i thought
as we see looking at the statistics in nineteen thirty nine i thought you know
if there was just one computer in every school
some of the kids would find it you know
which is there someone will find and it will change their life
we saw the rate at which this was happening and the rate at which the
school bureaucracies were deciding to buy a computer for school was so slow
that we we realize that a whole generation kids whose gonna go through
the school system before they've got the first computer so without
the kids can't wait for this peacefully
we
want to donate a computer to every school in america is that there's about
a hundred thousand schools in america ten thousand high schools but ninety
thousand catering
through web page
and we could afford that
as a company
so we studied the raw and it turned out that there was a long are ready on the
books
in anek national law
that said if you donated
a piece of uh...
scientific instrumentation or computer
to university
educational and research purposes
you can take a extra tax deduction
that basically means you don't make any money you lose some
but you don't lose too much
you lose about ten percent
and
we thought if we can apply dot law
if we if we pick enhanced outlaw a little bit to extend it down the k_
three-eighths
and remove the research requirements which is educational
then we could do a hundred thousand computers away one teach for america
and it would cost our company ten million dollars
which was a lot of money to us at that time but it was a lot less than that
hundred million dollar losses if we didn't have that
and we decided we will do that
and we should meet actually use of the most incredible thing
one was incredibly georgia
we found
our local representative
gangs pete stark
over enough usa he staked
and a few of us at downtown we wrote
we literally drafted a bill
to make these changes we committed we said if the pope if this law changes we
will
donate two hundred thousand peters
across the ten million dollars to us
we call it the kids can't wait
pete stark introduced in the house
and our senator danforth introduced at the senate
and i
refused the hiring lobbyists
and i went back to washington myself and i actually walked the halls of congress
for about two weeks
and it was most incredible things i met
probably
two-thirds of the house and over half of the senate
myself sat down and talk with him
and
um... it was very interesting i found a house members were
routinely less intelligent than the senate
and they were much more knee-jerk to their constituency which i found
initially quite offensive
but i came to understand that maybe that's a really good idea maybe that's
the way the framers one with
they weren't supposed to be too much they were supposed to represent
in the senate you're supposed to think a little more
some precursor it was very it was very interesting anyway
the bill passed the house
with the largest
favorable majority any tax bill in history this country
what happened was it was here in carter's lame duck session
and bob dole
was then the speaker the house
he would not bring it to the floor
and we ran out of time
and so
we would've had to start of the entire process over the next year
and i gave up
i think this is this is great
however
fortunately something unique happen
california thought this was such a good idea
that they came to office they said weren't you going to do a thing we're
gonna pass a bill
it says
since you are greatest a california california tax
where the pass this bill that says that the federal building past
then you get a tax break california
you do in california which are ten thousand schools
so we did we gave way ten thousand computers as they california home into
software companies they would like to software
we train teachers for free and we monitored this thing on excuses from now
relief and all
and one of my bf
much more my great experiences but also my biggest regrets was
weeks really tried to do this on the national level
and got so close
currents that i don't think bob dole even knew what he was doing but he
unfortunately
screwed up here
major uh... was you know it's a great story
that's a great that's why i was also part of what happened was about
now on the business side uh... unzip
the washington post mcintosh was uh... introduced and the washington post was
there
i_b_m_ people shop nobody was going to play with that's right and uh... the
macintosh infiltrated opposed the result was road that started with uh... and
artists
and novel from newspapers being done on the
mcintosh a happen uh... out the machines on the business cycle
and reserve fairly common the service this posture grew up
cold group of them kasi we had no concept of how to sell the corporate
america
because none of us never come from
and it was like another planet s i mean unfortunately i had to learn a lot of
stuff down
you know i'd only known then what an amalgam
done a lot better but
didn't know that stuff didn't have the people that that
are tense this all the corporate america which has bungled
and we ended up just selling to people that
were buying a product for its merit not
because of the company came from
everybody was very cost on big blue beckon
and they brought
idea mindlessly that famous frazier get fired for buying i_b_m_
uh...
brought me and fortunately we have a change a lot of that
an apple as you know
even i'd believe today is a bigger supplier personal computers and i did
christopher's
talk about uh... tell me about next what motivated you to establish next uh...
what were the goldsmith is about to accomplish himself is different
hall that's complicated
uh...
we basically wanted to keep doing what we were doing an apple
keep innovating
and we didn't see that was going to happen
and we made a mistake which was to try to follow the same metaphor that we did
it apple to make the whole week jet
and the market was changing
industry was changing the scale was changing
in the end
we were we knew we would sort of evil last company that made it or the first
didn't yahoo right on the edge
we thought we'd be the last one that really made it but we were all we were
the first one that did
and i think pretty much put an end to that
to the companies that have ever tried to do that
and we certainly made our fair share of mistakes but
in the end i think we should have
took a little longer and realize that the world is changing in just gonna be a
software company right off the bat
wrote of the bill
uh...
good bloomfield wishing that fred great reviews and she had especially in the
world of misunderstood believe you're not they're selling on the ues market
today for
in some cases more than we sold for vision
they're hard to find even today and we haven't even made them for
you know two years to appears
whether the features of people
or or the features of the expansion with little that are still missing from
computers to better
i'm sure
book give
power
well first of all it was a totally plug-and-play mission
that's except for macintosh that's hard to find
it was an extremely powerful machine that way beyond a macintosh so it's sort
of combined that power of
the workstations with this plugin plane is at the map which is quite nice
second of all
the machine
sort of a fit to finish that you don't find the day
uh...
trip no i don't just mean packaging and insert operation
simple things too complex the simple things like
soft power on and off
me trivial thing but as you
you know one of the
biggest reasons people whose information computers
as they turn them off at the wrong time
and when you get into a multi tasking network system
that can happen that need to have much more severe consequences
you know we we were the first people to ever do that stilts on the only people
who do that
we push a button and tell the computer quest the computer to turn off the
figures out what used to do to shut down grace women turns itself off
of course in x computer was the first compete with built ins you know
high-quality sound
c_d_ quality sound and most people do that now which is a great took him a
long time
most people do that
as well
as this time
changed the tape
great-great written referal
arm
charlie about uh... the next step software
what makes it different
what occurs as a sponsors for so that's the real jen
i'll tell you interesting story
when i was at apple
a few of my
you quences
said you really need to go greasy rocks park
which was palo alto research center p_r_c_
and see what they got going over there they'll usually like to meet people and
that i
was able to get in there and see
but they were doing and i saw their early computer called the alto
which was a phenomenal computer
and they are actually showed me three things in there
that they had working
in nineteen seventy
six i saw them in nineteen seventy nine
truck really into all
a few years ago for us to fully recreates
for the industry to fully recreate
in this case with with next step
uh...
however i didn't see those three things
iowa saw the first one which was so incredible to me that it
saturated neil blinded me to see the other two
and it took me years to sort of recreate the rediscovered them
uh... and incorporate them back into the model
but they were very far ahead in their thinking they didn't have a right
enough the stuff they had done was not really rights
but it was the germ of the idea of all three things was there
and the three things work
graphical user interfaces
object oriented computing
and networking
let me go through this
graphical user interface is the alto had
the world's first graphical user interface it had windows it had a crude
many system
it had crew
wood panels and stuff
didn't know
it didn't work right
it basically was all there
objects they have small talk ready
the world's first heard not the first but really basically the first object or
even language
simula was sort of the first but small talk was the first official party
current language
third networking
they invented ethernet there's you know
and they had about two hundred altos with servers hooked up
in a local area network they're doing email and everything else over the
network all of nineteen seventy nine
i was so blown away
with the potential
of the germ of that graphical user interface stuff i saw
that i didn't even
the semel later even stick around to investigate fully the other two
what next step
was
wise
v
completion
turning some of that vision into reality
incorporating
the world's
forced truly commercial
argento rates system
next step
and
really for its time
being the most network system in the world when it came out
and uh...
i think the world is is made a lot of progress in networking
but hasn't yet
cross the hurdle into objects
and what's happened with next step is it's
really started to
get adopted by some very large corporate customers
and is now the most popular object oriented
system in the world
as objects around the threshold of uh... starting to move into the mainstream
and so the company last year recorded its first profit in its nine years
history
and uh... i sold fifty million dollars worth of software i think work
you have some significant growth this year
and it's fairly clear that connects can get up to being a few hundred million
dollar software company in the next three or four years
and be the largest company offering objects until microsoft comes in the
market at some point in time
uh... probably with a pretty half baked product
some people say
future object-oriented software t
of course uh... in across the street
yet but the minute
i remember it being a xerox in nineteen seventy nine to this one of those
sort of apocalyptic moments yeah
uh...
i remember
within ten minutes of seeing the graphical user interface stuff
just knowing
that every computer will work this way so that in itself obvious when she saw
it didn't require tremendous in elective is look at of course every computer work
this way
this is so clear
the minute you understand objects it's exactly the same feeling
all software will be reviews in object oriented knowledge in sunday
you can argue about
how long it's gonna take how you win you can are you know who the winners losers
are gonna be
uh... but you tried don't think a rational person can argue
about its inability
totally give me your thoughts
standards eminent future
internode
commercial online services out there
who'd though
the internet
and the world wide web because they become one thing now
are clearly the most exciting thing going on computer
new exciting for three four reasons number one
ultimately communiclique shooters are turning into communications devices
the ultimate we were spending
more and more of the cycles of the computer
to not only making easy to use but to make it easy communicate
and the web because the missing piece of the puzzle
uh... which really is gonna power that vision much further forward
so it's very exciting that we secondly it's very exciting
because
is gonna destroy
vast layers of our economy
and it is going to
make available
uh...
a presence in the marketplace for a very small companies and speak with a very
large companies are making an example
uh... a small three-person company in phoenix arizona
can have a web server that looks v
identical if not better
then uh...
r_d_ aps
warren van uh...
and and uh...
you know the gap's were than anybody else and large company
they can gain access to this electronica striations channel for free
they don't have to build buildings they don't have to go sign up
uh... a thousand distributors and have people to call on them eccentric setter
in essence direct distribution from the manufacturer to the customer via the
internet
via the web
direct contact
directs transactions
and then distribution via ups or federal express
that's going to be cheaper
been going through all these middlemen
or building hundreds of stores around the country
it is going to radically change the way goods and services
are discovered
sold
and delivered
not only in this country but eventually in the world
and as you know what ross travel at the speed of light and so it tends to bring
the world
much closer together in terms of
providers and customers
that's very exciting
the leveling a big and small
the leveling of
calls nearing distance
the third reason it's very exciting skis microsoft doesn't own it
and i don't think they can
i think it's it's the one thing in the industry of microsoft probably could
never alone
and i think one of the things that's essential
the government
teeny to fund
the internet
as a public trust
as a public
facility
remove any these ridiculous notions of privatizing it
uh...
that have been brought up i don't think they're gonna fly thankfully
the internet cost the u_s_ government about fifty to seventy five million a
year
disputes
for what it's doing right now in effect cost sunday escalated to
you know half a billion a year which of course you can build the whole internet
each year for that purpose scratch if you had to replace all the equipment
exciter
uh... that would be an extraordinarily small price to pay
were keeping it
from getting into the hands of any one company
and thereby starting the destroyer controlled the innovation
they could take place around the internet it's the one last bright spot
uh... it
of hope in the computer industry
for some serious innovation happened a rapid pace and what's also great about
it is again the u_s_ is in the forefront here
uh...
that's what's great about the whole
personal computer and software industry but this is another example of where the
u_s_ is in the forefront i think
uh... it should be kept open it should be kept free
how do you feel
worldwide lives liberal is between
woven from a
yes com well you optimistic about it
yes free it's yes i am optimistic that a state rebate before he says global too
fast
it's estimated that uh...
over one-third
of the total internet traffic in the world originate suggestions in
california
i actually think this is pretty typical work california again is certainly in
the leading edge of this
now a technical but cultural
shift
uh...
and uh... so i do expect the web to be a worldwide phenomenon
uh... distributed fairly broadly
right now i think it's a
it's a u_s_ phenomenon that's moving
to be global and
again very concentrated in certain pockets california being one eighty-five
system
right
potential there and
on
tell me about pics
says very interesting
all right
got hooked up with some folks uh... again a friend of mine for me i should
go visit these crazy guys have been sandra fell california
who were working at lucasville
and george lucas of new no produced
the star wars from film trilogy
i was a smart guy
and at one point when he was had a lot of money coming in from these films
realize the other star technology group nephew problems he wanted the salt let
me give you an example of one
when you make copy of a catalog audio recording
tape cassettes another tape cassette
you pick up nor is artifacts
in this case he has some intake
if you make a second-generation kaka gets worse exponentially
the same is true popsicle analog copies
to take a piece of filmmaking optical copy pickup noise artifacts
in this case optical noise
which uh...
comes across is
blurry nissen some cases comes across the southern always artifacts of the
case
now george to make star wars actually had to
composite together
up to thirteen pieces of film
for each frame
the map paintings for the backgrounds might be a few pieces of film
uh... the the models might be a few pieces of film allied action might be
few pieces of film some special effects might be a few pieces of film
every time he'd make a copy
two composite
to together then add a third than f_-fourteens adding noise artifacts and
each generation
if you go by a laser disc of
starting the star wars movies and stop it on some of frames they are really
grungy
incredibly noisy
very bad quality
george being a perfectionist he was
who feel that i do this at all
so i'd like to do a perfectly i'd like to digitally nobody'd ever done that
before
so he hired uh... some very smart people and they figure out how to do it for him
digitally with no noise artifacts
software that's legal specialist hard work time
george at some point decided that this was costing in
several million dollars a year in deciding what funded anymore so i bought
this group from george lucas
and i incorporated has pics r
and we set about basically revolutionizing high-end computer ethics
if you look at
the ten most important revolutions and high-end computer ethics
in the last ten years
eight of them have come at a fixer
um...
all of the software that was used to make uh...
terminator as an example to actually
construct the the images use on the screen
where jurassic park or dinosaurs
was picks are software
industrial light magic uses it is the basis for all of their stuff
but texarkana had another visions of the special effects pick stars vision was
to tell stories
real
films
and so on
our vision was to make the world's first
animated
feature film that was good
pletely computer synthetic
sets characters every
and after ten years
we have done
exactly that uh...
we have developed rules which were all proprietary do this to manage the
production of this thing
uh... as well as the uh...
the drawing
of this thing in the content of your synthetic drawing
and we are
finishing up making the world's first computer animated feature film picks are
as written it
directed at producing it
uh... and the walt disney corporation is distributing it
and it's coming out this year as walt disney's christmas picture
coming out november eleventh i believe it's called toy story
and you will hear a lot about it because i think it's going to be the most
successful film of this year
theater it's phenomenal a tom hanks is the main characters voice tim allen is
the second main character
randy newman's doing music for it
and it's just a nam
uh... while on
since this is degree to be part of what can you tell me a little bit about uh...
were
yet there's no purpose in three years old series that strip
but it was a using since lessons
cover of serious questions and and
them white just trips
say anything else
of their despair context are you from a book
there's a lot of coppola now about sort of hollywood and silicon valley
converging licked the called silly would i think
pics are really is going to be the first digital studio the whole world
and really combines parted technology to gather
in again a very wonderful way pictures got by far and away the best computer
graphics talent in the entire world
and it now has
the best animation
an artistic talent in the whole world to do these kinds of films we have that
second largest group of animators in the world outside of disney
we think the most houses in the world
uh... working side by side with these computer scientists
but the best graphics people of the world and uh... there's really no one
else in the world that can do this it's it's really phenomenal i think we're
probably close to ten years ahead of anybody else
so rose well the question i was in the past
you personally basket
of was about uh...
startup company says that uh... will corrode the facility here
their lives as written walls literally
share are one
uh... song
or system
communications companies
information technology companies
version
uh...
becoming do you think proving possible
major opment if
major storm
company vellum
vision
yet you know it's i think yes
the intellectually sometimes one would say in the spirit of the right thing to
ask
and the reason is is because
it's not
technology keeps on advancing so there there are pretty respect the thing that
makes it possible is that
human minds
settling into fixed ways of looking at the world
that that's always been true and it's probably always going to be true and i
think
you know i've always felt that death is the greatest invention a life
i'm sure that life evolve without death at first
and found it
without dept wife didn't work very well
because it didn't
make room for the young
who didn't
know how the world was
you know fifty years ago didn't know how the world was twenty years ago
who sought as it is today without any preconceptions
and softened dream how it could be based on that
who are not satisfied based on the accomplishments of the last thirty years
but who are dissatisfied because the current state didn't live up to their
ideals
without death there would be very little progress
one of the things that happens in organizations as well as in people
is they settle in two ways of looking at the world and become satisfied with us
and the world changes and keeps evolving in new potential arises
but these people that are settled and don't see it
and that's what gives startup companies
their greatest advantage
is is the this the
the seven terry point of view
of large companies
and in addition to that
large companies usually do not have very efficient communication towns
the people closest to some of these changes at the bottom of the company
to the top of the company which are the people making the big decisions
and so by the time to many people at the lower levels of these companies that cvs
changes coming but by the time the word ripples up to the highest levels where
they can do something about it sometimes ten years past
and um...
even in the case where
part of the company does the right thing
at the lower levels usually upper-level screwed up somehow on the idea of the
personal computer business was a good example of that so
i think as long as as uh...
you know humans
don'ts solve this
this human nature
traits
of sort of settling in
to worldview after a while
there will always be opportunity for
young companies as well as young people to innovate
uh... as it should be
and that was good of the my closing
my closing question
interested soap
research uh...
embarrassed to talk to young people who sort of mchugh as a as a role model
of
opportunities provisions that crystal possible
one of the factors for success
today what people's
deployed
overstates
for entrepreneurs yet for your review of your own preferred hogaya yeah susah la
and i have a pretty standard answer which is
a lot of people coming to i want to be an entrepreneur you know that's great
what's ready until i don't have one yet
and say well i think he should go get a job is a bust for something to you find
something you really passionate about because
it's a lot of work
i'm convinced that about half of what separates a successful entrepreneurs
from the non successful ones is pure perseverance
it is so hard
you poor so much your life into this thing there is such a rough moments in
time
than most people give up
i don't blame it's really tough
any consumes your life and then if you're if you've got a family
and here in the early days of the company gets i can't
a magic how one can do it
i'm sure it's it's been done but
it's rough because it's a pretty much it you know it eighteen our day jobs seven
days a week for a while
in washington have a lot of passionate about this
you're not
survive you'd given up
so you gotta have idea but cannot or a problem or a a wrong the one of rights
you're passionate about
otherwise
you're not going to have the perseverance to stick it through and i
think that's half the battle right there
well online
because your you're talking abt
figure the other side
passions
what would you say
his passion
how
what would you say
about responsibilities
power team
so xxx
you know uh...
was that he needs it
unique passion
to build a company
uh... idea any of it
what you've achieved
what you think of passion
word position six microsoft or anybody else in the yourself
what the responsibilities of those
sixty
uh... so bernie change bill
one responsible
all i think
and uh... that question to take it on many levels obviously if you're running
the company
you have responsibilities
but as an individual
uh... i i don't think you have responsibilities i think the work speaks
for itself
and i i don't think that
that people have
special responsibilities just because
they've done something that other people
you know like or don't like or what have you i think the work speaks for itself
and people can choose to do things if they wanted
you know i mean we're all gonna be dead sin and that's my point of view
you know as somebody once told me they said uh...
live each day as if it
will be last
and one day you'll certainly be right
you know can i do that and i i really
you never know when you're gonna go
uh... but you know you are going to go pretty soon
you know if you can leave anything behind you know it's going to be
your kids
few friends
so that's what i tend to worry about i don't end it
think about responsibility
perfect i tend to like to on occasion
pretend i don't have the responsibilities
i try to remember the last day when i didn't have anything to do and i had
nothing to do the following day that i had to do had no responsibilities and it
was
you know decades ago sarah after pretend and i want to feel that way
so i i i don't think in those terms
i think you have a responsibility to do
really good stuff and get out there for people who use
and let them build on the shoulders of it and keep making better stuff
sold responsible consultant stands
way in our business you know one person can do anything anymore being created
team of people around you have a responsibility of integrity of the work
that team
everybody does need try to turn out the best work you can
finals comments are posted your for the record or
were off the record
now
not really
timeframes interesting thing when you think about people
you know looking back i thank you think when people look back on this and a
hundred years they're going to see this is a remarkable time in history
isn't real credibly especially
this area believe it or not i mean i think
when you look at the innovation that's come out of this error desist bay area
of silicon valley in the whole san cisco berkeley bay area
now you've got
the invention of the integrated circuit
the invention of the microprocessor
the invention of
semiconductor memory
the
certainly the invention of the modern hard disk drive
the invention of the floppy disk drive not suck the image of the modern floppy
disk it was remitted idea of the hardest what it is but the the commercialization
of those things
the invention of the personal computer
v
invention of genetic engineering
the invention of object oriented knology invention graphical user interfaces
at the park
followed by apple
the invention of networking
all that happens fairy
one it happen
poi here like there will be misplaced uh...
two or three reasons poses a remarkable place actually
have to go back over history
and this is where the beatnik era happen
yeah sensis com
was pretty interesting thing
this is where
the hippie
movement happened
this is the only place in america that were rock-and-roll really happen
so all the big hugs me most the bands in this country at sort of bob dylan in the
sixties i mean they all came out here anne from joan baez too
you know jefferson airplane to the grateful dead and everything came out
here
janis joplin jimi hendrix
everybody why does that that so strangely thing about it
um...
and
then
you've also had stanford and berkeley
to awesome universities
drawing smart people from all over the world and depositing them inist clean
sunny
nice place
was all those other smart people
and free food
and there are times while the drugs in a lot of fun things of that
salt mister
and so there's a lot of human capital pouring in here
plotted human capital
really smart people average you know
people seemed
pretty bright here relative to the rest of the country
and people seem pretty
open-minded here
relative to the rest of the country
and i think
uh... it's just a very unique place
and it's got ideas got a track record approve it
so that tends to attract more people to
and uh... i get a lot of credit for the universities
i'll be the most credit of anything to stanford in berkeley
usa cal
well i cannot tell you
the future hope it's helpful old yet it will be
o'keefe
for this
and one
well i just did uh... david packard yesterday