thank
you okay so uh from the start one of the
things first thing I want to do here is
to incorporate by reference Corey
Doo's um keynote address on eni
ification uh I'm not really
contradicting anything that he's
saying the only difference being that
entific is an
outcome what I'm looking at is how we
fix things and so I'm looking at causes
and switching costs not the only cause
of
intific but they're one of the Prime
causes that we've got to deal
with second point I want to make is this
is not really about the mathematical
mesh it's not about the ma my code per
se if you're interested in mathematical
mesh uh I have a YouTube uh um Channel
where I'm going to be describing the uh
new release that will be coming out in a
couple of months
time uh but the problem is that if I
come here and say let's do this and I
don't have any code while people say oh
he's all talk and no
code and then when I do come with
code oh he's just protecting his
code so so you know you can't
win what I do want to use the mesh for
however it's an existence proof there is
at least one way we can solve this
problem if you've got a better way of
doing it
great really I mean it I mean like um I
have trampled over my own past work
myself many times in my career uh people
kind of like get upset about it uh no
code specifications they're just a means
to an end when somebody's got a better
tool that's a
win and of course you know I'm not going
to come to a hacker conference and produ
provide some proprietary code the me
it's all open source it's own all open
specification but it is also open
service and that's what I'm going to be
getting into in the heart of my
talk and thirdly I'd like to ask why are
we
here and no no no I don't mean that
let's Ponder the onwe of the screaming
void uh I mean why are we here at
Hope what are
we we're hackers and what do hackers
do hackers challenge existing power
structures hackers Chang the world and
the reason I I'm here is that I need
your help I have an enormous amount a a
steaming pile of code one of my
colleagues call it I have an
infrastructure that I built up that
makes it really easy to layer security
onto any application does most of the
work for
you and as I'm going to be showing you
there are many things we can apply it to
far more than any one single person
could hope to uh uh make use of okay so
switching costs what are they all about
well let's start with a few use cases um
and see what's going on there first case
study
Twitter okay we all know about t what
happened to Twitter and I don't want to
go
into um how awful the SAR
swasher incarnation of Twitter has
become instead I want to ask a different
question why is anybody left
there and the answer's quite simple I've
spent 15 years I've invested 15 years
into the Twitter platform people know
how to find me I know how to find them
and all that effort I was investing into
the platform was being siphoned off by
the platform provider as an asset
belonging to them not an asset belonging
to me and the reason is it's hard to
switch away you know if I go to madon I
have a madon I have very few of the
friends that I had on
Twitter that I'm following on masteron
and it's really hard to find people it's
very hard for people to find me you know
it takes
time and so what that's one example of
switching
costs now I was going to go to show you
how my Facebook feed has been in shifi
with a whole series of posts you know
I've subscribed to 50 groups none of
those groups manage to make it into my
feed a very few from the people I follow
make it into my feed instead 80% of my
feed recently has been posts Whistling
Dixie telling me what a great chat the
rapist slaver Robert E
Lee
was I don't want that but Twitter but
Facebook wants to shove that in my face
to make me angry because an angry person
is an Engaged person and engage people
create clicks and create money for the
Zuck why don't I move away from Facebook
because of the switching
costs and finally signal
and here the question is why don't I
want to use it
more and the reason is it is a Walled
Garden yeah I I'm really happy with the
endtoend messaging and I'm really happy
that right now it is a not for-profit
company but you know I've been in the
business for 35 years now and I have
seen a heck of a lot of not for-profit
companies wake up one morning and think
IPO in fact I can't think off hand of a
single one that
hasn't and in fact when I go through
where what uh signals should do in order
to achieve their objectives I could make
a pretty good argument that what they
should do is to go commercial float off
the messaging service and put the $5
billion they get from the IPO into
setting up a privacy Foundation it would
actually make
sense okay so switching costs it's not
just something that are good for you
once people are aware of switching costs
it starts to hurt you because people
avoid your
product okay well what if internet
accounts were
portable I we've faced this problem
before in the telephone system and you
know when MCI and Co were trying to get
started uh and people were trying to set
up local telephone providers the
government stepped in and said okay
you've got to make telephone numbers
portable and so now I can move from you
know when I originally bought this phone
I was on AT&T then I moved to T-Mobile
and you know I can move to variet if I
want I don't have the switching cost
from telling everybody my new telephone
number because of
Regulation but we don't necessarily need
regulation all we really need is that
ability to switch our accounts
around okay
so pushing on that a bit further we get
to the idea of an open service and an
open service in my view has a um three
parts number one users must be able to
choose their service provider and change
at any time without penalty so if I go
to mesh service provider one decide they
don't like them I can go to number two I
might go from free to paid paid to free
I might set up my own
service secondly users don't need to use
the same service in order to interact
and this is a second part of not having
the switching cost so I don't need to be
on Signal to talk to somebody else I can
be on Skype all I need to do is to set
up one service provider account I don't
need a hundred so that I've got coverage
with all the people I might need to talk
to and thirdly anybody can provide
service no Gatekeepers just like SMTP
was in the the early days before spam
you you can still set up your own SMTP
email server if you like but you'll find
it really hard getting your mail
delivered you know there's a cabal that
you've got to join and so you know as we
think think through these problems
you've also got to think through the
problems of abuse and all that stuff
because if you don't what started off as
an open service will become closed oh
and yes we also want to put the least
trust possible in that open service I'm
going to be showing you a contact
manager I don't want the service that is
managing my contacts to know who any of
my contacts were are I want to have full
endtoend
encryption including encryption of all
the static data
stored at the
service okay okay so two challenges to
set out then number one is how do we
design open
services and that's actually the easy
one the hard one is how do we open up
existing Services how do we take a
crowbar to Facebook to Twitter to signal
and open up their world
Gardens okay so how to build an open
service
it's not that difficult um the first
principle youve got to accept is the
account belongs to the user and not to
the service so instead of getting an
account at AOL an account at comus serve
you are going to get an account that
belongs to you and is
portable change of
mindset secondly the identifier that is
used to refer to that
account has to be controlled by the user
so if I'm giving out my contact
information I can give that out
confident that it's going to remain
constant for you know 10 15 years
whatever couple of approaches here
approach one is everybody gets their own
DNS domain and this is the one that I
was really pushing hard on in the um
early ORS when I was principal s
scientist for very
sign and yes having your own domain name
is a win the only problem is I'm paying
$10 a year for Halen baker.com which
really isn't a lot of money for somebody
like me you know uh most of us here at
hope you you know it's the price of
going to Starbucks and getting a coffee
and a
pastry but for large parts of the world
$10 a year is you know that's a week's
salary for some
people so that's not something that we
can rely on for
everybody second approach use a
cryptographic identifier it's a generate
a public private key pair and you can
always claim ownership of the public
part of that key Pair by use of the PRI
corresponding private key and this is
what I do in the mesh the mesh builds a
personal pki for every user user
generates their own key pair and the
fingerprint of that key pair is their
permanent user identifier it's a user
identifier for life it doesn't have any
mandatory
expiry and then because pgp fingerprint
type technology isn't very user friendly
we cover that up with layers of
syntactic sugar so when we want to
exchange uh contacts we can do it by QR
code uh we can do it by reference to our
current service address but only as a
hailing thing not as a uh permanent
contact
identifier and I am considering possibly
doing a call sign service I've got specs
for that I believe that we could run
that out at global scale for about 10
cents a name doing it on a small scale
scale is easy uh you know and here's the
problem with open Services you open
source software scales really well
because the incremental Pro cost of
bringing on another user is zero open
Services your marginal costs add up and
so if you're going to have a billion
users you got to think about how you're
going to pay for
it okay so how do we open up the
existing
systems well to answer that question
question let's look at how did telephone
numbers become
portable and you know this was a a
technological change that happened and
the way that we did it was well in the
old telephone system the strer system
the telephone number was literally a
path through the network so you had the
exchange and then you had the um you
know the uh
line um and you know
that worked until we went to electronic
with systems like
ss7 and in ss7 we introduced a second
number every endpoint in ss7 has a uh
subscriber endpoint number and ss7 is an
enormous honking great database that
Maps the telephone number to the service
endpoint okay so what we need to do is
similar but with
security the tricks that you can play on
ss7 are really quite
interesting I used to be in the business
of placing wiretaps and it's quite
horrific how easy it is to do
that okay so what we need to do is to
introduce a mechanism that allows people
to have a permanent identifier eg a mesh
fingerprint that they use to refer to a
person and that P permanent end
identifier can be mapped dally to
whatever the service endpoints happen to
be so what if you had a contact catalog
that stored all your contacts
automatically shared itself across every
device that you own without you having
to think about it so I connect to Bob on
my phone I can connect to him from my
laptop my my iPad my desktop
Etc what if you could do all that and
what if all those contact assertions
automatically updated whenever they
changed well what we've done there we've
achieved telephone number portability
but in Reverse instead of the visible
piece the piece that's visible to the
user being the part that uh is constant
we introduce a new number hit it
and that's now the part that's
constant and uh this oh no okay can't do
that so this is uh the result pardon the
dust this is uh reference
code um as I said I need people's help
uh if somebody would take this mess and
uh make it look pretty I'd be really
happy and you know you don't need to
know understand cryptography to know to
do that okay so what we've got here is
Alice's contact and as you can see here
we've got a bunch of network addresses
uh programmed in so mesh address is at
example.com have the Twitter have the
signal have the
Facebook and so she's then going to
share that contact with Bob and say they
meet in person they can you know wave
phones at each other uh as be here use
BUMP yeah it was a great product wasn't
it you know what happened to it Google
bought
it guess what Google did with it killed
it that's why we need open Services
that's why we need to do this but do it
as an open
service because if you you know yet
another proprietary version is just
making things worse oh okay but say Bob
and Alice are on different continents
they're trying to connect up uh well Bob
could send a contact request to Alice
and so here we have a contact request in
Alice's uh messages she can accept it
she can reject it if she accepts it Bob
will get Alice's contact information and
if they exchange contact information
they also
exchanging securely all the
cryptographic context associated with
all the applications so if Alice has pgp
enabled for
email Bob has got Alice's pgp key if
he's got smime he's got her uh smime
certificate uh same for code signing etc
etc and if uh Alice decides to join
telegram she adds it to her contact Bob
doesn't need to do anything additional
next time he he opens up his contacts
try to talk to Alice the devices can
automatically synchronize up get the
latest version and go away and this is a
least trust service the service cannot
see any of Alice's contacts they're all
encrypted end to
end and the way that we do that yes it's
a former public key cryptography but it
goes beyond the public key that you're
probably used to it's using Thresh told
cryptography where we split up the
private Keys what this means is the
service can control decryption which is
important um if I lose my phone I want
to be able to turn off this phone stop
it having any access to any further
access to any of my
data and I can do that by telling the
service don't de don't allow this phone
to do any more
decryption but the service doesn't have
the ability to decrypt on its own it
only has a share of the key not the key
itself we also want to have some other
security uh properties like uh not being
able to impersonate Alice and present
Alice with an inval contact identifier
address okay so why didn't we do this
earlier you know why didn't we do this
in 1990s when we were building pgp and
the web and and all that stuff
well the amount of cryptography required
to do it well is rather impressive and
when I was working on SSL before it
became TLS we couldn't do certificate
chains of more than
three because the machine would simply
grind to a
halt you couldn't do this amount of
cryptography on a 1990 era 20 mahz IBM
PC but you know what you can do it on a
Raspberry Pi one without it even be you
know flickering an eye so you know
performance of the CPUs has moved on
cryptography has moved on we can now do
it and the other reason we didn't do it
then was that a lot of the techniques I
use were encumbered I tried to buy out
the shity patent that's the patent on
blockchain in the uh early ORS you know
5 years before blockchain came out and
they wouldn't
deal uh it's not postquantum yet but
we've got a plan uh that should be in in
a couple of months time that's actually
what's gating the F the public
release okay so since we're on security
yeah we all like end to end encryption
who likes end to end encryption yay woo
it's not
enough
seriously uh most of the endtoend
encryption systems are not end to endend
secure and the reason for that is if I'm
going to talk to signal and say Hey how
do I talk to
Bob well signal has a database there and
it get says Bob's public key is this and
then I talk to Bob okay well what if uh
the the boys in fed
or what if um Putin's um novich to toin
um pedophile uh compromising uh spies uh
get to Signal
well it's a signal point of
failure and you know no matter what you
try and do within the signal protocol
they still have that database they can
always send a note to you say say hey
you need to update your
client and they can downgrade aack Q to
an insecure version of signal and so
they can always te get tell you here's
Mallet key it belongs to
Bob and so we need to move Beyond merely
endtoend encryption and move towards
endtoend
trust and to get to endtoend trust we've
got to go right back to the original pgp
model where every end user manage the
public keys and yes I know signal has
safety numbers don't
work sorry anybody here use signal
safety
numbers what happens if uh the other
person changes their
device you get a message saying safety
number has
changed we've got to put the user in
control first thing we got to do is to
put them in control of the public keys
that they rely
on one of the mistakes I think that we
made in the web pki was that we saw
digital certificates as a way of
establishing a secure
session what it should have been was a
way of securely introducing a key to the
other user
so what I'm looking at is a model where
users are always storing keys for trust
after first use and in the in the mesh
the model is that each user's contact
catalog that shares across all their
device is their ground Truth for
interacting with other users and the
second part is each user controls their
private key so all your private keys on
all your device devices should be
expressly under your control and nobody
else make it really easy to provision
keys to a new device when you add it to
your personal mesh make it really easy
to disable the ability of a device to
work within your
mesh and we're not just talking about
Communications here you know how many
people here are
developers how many use
git uh have you been managing a project
at all and you're trying to onboard
somebody onto the project and you know
first of all you need to get their SSH
key so that they can talk to the
reaper uh open PG do you sign commits
anybody hear use signing commits yes
great you know would it be nice if there
was just a oneclick way of Alice joins
the project we can add her mesh contact
into the project and then all the stuff
that she needs to interoperate as part
of that project is now automatically
logged in and you know allow her to sign
developer builds with her developer key
and now I can download her code run it
not think about the fact that you know
not need to tell my development machine
anymore hey this is from Alice it's
trustworthy uh and when Alice leaves the
project delete her
contact removes all all the
Privileges now okay so I've hopefully
I've put out a
compelling proposal here the devil
however is in the de deployment the
system that I've described is a system
that makes use of the network effect
viral
marketing well you know what viral
marketing is until you hit critical mass
anybody chicken egg
problem until you reach critical mass
all that Network effect is acting
against you and so what you want to do
in order to deploy a new application is
to combine single mver advantages with
the network effect and that's what we
did with the web the reason that the
webs got originally got popular at CERN
was the it was a way of getting to the
Sur phone book without having to log
into the CERN VM
Mainframe so you could have it on your
desktop instead of walking down the hall
to the terminal that would talk to the
IBM
Mainframe so the mesh does more than
just manage
contacts so here we have it uh offering
the device connection dialogue you know
QR bar code um so it also has the
ability to manage
bookmarks uh social media
feeds um passwords pass Keys uh calendar
tasks all the things that uh you want to
synchronize between devices can be
synchronized through a uh mesh catalog
that is endtoend
encrypted and is entirely controlled by
the user
so that's the phase one and to go
further in phase two uh which should
come out this year we're going to be
adding General messaging so you'll be
able to send a short message to other
mail mesh users send a mail message or
send a large
file uh mess messaging which is
necessary in order to exchange the
contacts I need uh end to end secure uh
uh asynchronous protocol to say hey
here's my contact well you can use that
for other things uh that's deliberately
limited to 32
kilobytes however that 32 kilobytes
could contain a message saying hey I
want to send you the video for to edit
the two terabytes of video is here so
it's also large files you know your
Dropbox type
functionality uh it has a second Factor
authentication already built in and
that's part of the password transition
uh
strategy in phase three we'll be adding
uh interactive chat so add a presentence
service and now you can chat like you
doing
signal uh if you add mock then we can do
voice video
calling uh and finally
iot um if you've got a way of gluing all
of Alice's devic
together uh you can open up those
devices so that if you want to have a
doorbell that instead of it being
connected to a service provided by the
doorbell salesman that you pay $10 a
month
for you can have it going to an open
service that you pay you know it might
be a paid service but that can be one
open service that does all of your iot
devices
um so I believe that that's another area
that might be uh able to Garner some
interest
um okay so I started off with social
media so yeah we know that social media
is
awful question is though what do we
switch to that isn't going to be quite
so
horrible and I believe that the thing we
need to do is to to separate out the
concerns the problem with Facebook is
that you go to in order to read stuff on
Facebook you have to join
Facebook okay so imagine there's an open
publisher model where I go to the
publisher of my choice and anybody can
read my stuff you know like like happens
on media okay so I make my post doesn't
matter whether you're a Twitter junkie
or a Facebook drunkie that's still going
to appear in your feed if you friend me
because each user can subscribe to
curators separate out the
curation function from the publishing
function so when I publish a note it
automatically goes out is seen by a
universe of curators and each user can
choose the curators who provide them
with the content that they
want not the content that the
advertisers want
to push into people's faces to make them
mad so that they're
engaged and of course use feedback here
so that uh when people comment on
posts um all that feedback is being used
to um tell the curation algorithm hey
this is Phil Phil likes this sort of
stuff find you this sort of stuff and
then the curation algorithm who H which
has say maybe half a million people
using that curation uh engine looks oh
look people who match Phil's profile
they like this sort of stuff I'll give
him some of that and then the way that
you stop this from being unitified is
the application that you're reading
these feeds through that application is
constantly evaluating the performance of
the
curators you have
accountability so if I have a curator
that is constantly giving me nothing but
post Whistling
Dixie
or the S
swasher for you
feed um well those just aren't going to
appear in my uh recommendation
because my client is going to decide
well this is a curator that isn't worth
following oh and by the way I'll
unsubscribe you and stop paying the fee
as
well okay so hopefully I've thrown out a
lot of possibilities here and I think it
should be be obvious to all that this is
not something that one person is going
to be able to complete on their
own and so the reason I've come here to
Hope is I'm looking for collaborators
who are interested in building something
better I you know the web was great in
the early years it really was a
challenge to the model that um Time
Warner had for interactive TV does any
you remember interactive TV this was
this really G yeah this vision of the
future where everybody was going to have
a 10 foot television in their living
room
and the only interactivity was you could
buy
stuff and the re one of the reasons the
web was successful was that it hit at
just the right moment uh because you
know Time Warner they' put all this
money into it and they discovered oh
people don't really want this oh we've
got billion dollars to spend on it what
we're going to do
and so all that money that was uh lined
up to move into interactive TV that all
went into the web and you know for a for
a while there you know until the mids we
were winning you know the web was really
owned by the people it was designed for
you know the internet Society motto the
internet is for
everyone well recent years not so much
you know recent years it's kind of like
being more the private property of
eccentric
billionaires oh I'm using Twitter oh uh
I didn't realize that an eccentric
billionaire fascist could just buy it up
and uh fill my feed
with if we're going to take it back it's
going to require a movement and we've
got to start looking at how we
limit the corporate owner's ability to
control us and the primary way I believe
that we've got to do that is by
addressing switching costs as I said in
the opening if you've got a better way
of killing this mouse or power tvu I'll
help you you know just sign me up um you
know back in the uh early days of the
web I had stuff that I was wanting to do
uh new of doing programming I threw that
over to join a guy called Tim berners
Lee who had this idea called the web I'm
more than happy of following somebody
else's idea but I've got one way of
skinning this
cat uh anybody who' come and help me
that's what I'm looking for thank you
very
much oh in conclusion have hope it is
soluble any questions oh contact
information here here the YouTube yeah
questions you have a mic on the stage
there which uh please down the
mic oh
great first of all it was a great talk
so thank you uh one of the Cornerstone
of your
mesh uh seem to be the unique in fire
that rely on pki with the advance of
cryptography that change and make crypto
system broken every 10 15 years do you
have any solution for when the pki back
end of the uni need to change uh I'm I'm
I I didn't hear
that
pki so your unique identifi is based on
the cryptography and the pki and the
private key that is used which is based
by an algorithm so cryptography is being
is evolving every 10 15 years with
crypto system that are now broken so oh
are you talking about post Quantum
cryptography that's the new phase of it
there will be something else after that
but your unique identifier is based on
that pki key and the finger in so if
that's
broken what do we do do we lose that
account do we need to change oh okay so
question is about uh cryptography and um
you know is it uh what What's the
cryptographic lifetime we can expect
from this all the cryptography that I'm
using is industry
standard and I only ever use the highest
strength ciphers so I don't use as 1228
I only ever use as
256 as 256 has a work
Factor well as28 has a work Factor
against conventional Crypt analysis that
is kind of like Universal
sized as
256 has a work factor that against
Quantum cryptography that is Universe
sized so in terms of the cryptographic
identifiers um the cryptography I'm
using is all stuff that is uh rated by
nist for storing documents for 20 30
years now when it the fly that comes in
the ointment there is is quantum Crypt
analysis the current release of the
mesh uh it has the postquantum
algorithms in the build I've not yet
started making use of them in the code
that's something that I'm planning to do
in the next few months and with that you
should have
um an expected period you know at least
20 30 years for against postquantum
um so you know it's it's always an a
possibility and in the early days of
cryptography when we had really slow
machines we we sail close to the wind
because we had to now we don't have to
we can use really strong algorithms and
we can use them at the highest strength
so I believe that it is secure for you
know certainly for my lifetime and
probably for yours as
well what sort of security features
would this uh mesh you've proposed have
so that like if I were to apply for a
job from Bob that he wouldn't get my
contact information and then see like
here's his grinder profile here's
something else that you don't want to
share with your employer so how do we
keep accounts separate from people we
don't want to see oh great question so
the question is about isolating
identities and yeah I I've gone back and
forth with different ways to do it uh I
mean one way that you can do it is have
a separate contact identifiers for word
work and personal and so on if you
really want to keep those identities
separate however the way that you need
to do it is by creating separate mesh
accounts and having clients that make
that really easy to do and that's what
the current client does you know you can
create as many mesh profiles as you like
and run them
independently
so uh you mentioned earlier in the talk
uh that we don't need regulation we need
um like a technical solution um I'm just
curious uh even with a perfect technical
solution looking at how like Facebooks
of the world and stuff have like cut
away their apis and you know don't
produce things over RSS anymore and
stuff how do you imagine or or do you
believe that um that it can be adopted
without regulation oh uh well one of the
problems I have with people relying on
regulation is I I work with Regulators a
lot uh in that one of my interests is
security of critical
infrastructure and so you know we we
have absolutely no embarrassment about
telling people running nuclear plants
you're going to do it securely yeah and
that's right but the problem that I see
with the current approach is The
Regulators have been
told make messaging open
but the technologists are not telling
The Regulators how to make it open and
you know if you're going to go to a
regulator with a technical ask you've
got to go there with a technical
solution as well and so yeah if somebody
was to go to um the EU and say hey you
want to make messaging open this is how
to do it yeah I'm aware of the Mimi
group at I ATF and we can have an
offline talk about that yes um yeah yes
this is a way of doing it but you've got
to give those Regulators something to
work with and so this is a technical
thing on the table that can be turned
into a demand
oh off this transition I frequently work
on acrimonious
divorces uh where someone's trying to
revoke their soon to be former spouses
access to all of their contact
information can you talk about how
revocation works in the
mesh oh that's a great question and uh
so I'd like to add in there uh the
question of
um okay do I have that oh no I don't
have that screen uh I'd also like to add
in there uh what happens if you are in a
war zone and your house is destroyed and
everything in it
okay I'm proposing that people start
making use of uh encrypting data at rest
so that you have pictures of the kids
encrypt the encrypt them now if you're
going to do that you have got to have a
really solid data recovery story because
if you don't well you've just Ransom wed
your
yourself so yes there is uh a mechanism
built into the mesh uh Shamir secret
sharing where you can take your the
primary key that's used as a rout for
creating the
pki and that can be split uh two out of
three three out of five is up to 16
shares uh and then you end up with these
uh
asy uh character thingies that you uh
distribute and so yes we can uh recover
from uh an absolute
disaster if we're looking at uh
matrimonial it's a little bit more
complicated because you can only
separate things if the parties's thought
about the separation at the
outset yeah but frequently you you
unfriend people and you don't want them
to have all your prior contact
information do you support that or is it
only going forward the no longer have
access to Future contact information
okay
well you yes shutting off updates is a
lot harder than unsharing
data uh there is a mechanism that I
could use I could threshold secret share
the actual contacts themselves I'd be
very leery about doing that simply
because it would be a huge overhead on
doing that um
what I would prefer there is um yes with
SMTP email having somebody know your
contact is a disaster because they can
spam you with mes messaging every
contact requ every communication request
is access controlled so if I don't want
to talk to you you can block I can block
right and so the idea here is well or I
can push you off to my secretary
one of my goals here is Madonna
or um Hamilton can put their uh Lewis
Hamilton can put their mesh call sign on
their business card and they can use
that for communicating with their per
close personal fan friends and their
fans alike without getting spammed to be
Jesus so yeah but also you're using this
for credential sharing so revocation
becomes important in a case like that as
well well I I see revocation as
primarily being a authorization question
rather than an authentication question
okay and that that's something that I
think we got wrong in PK and that
revocation is really revocation of
authorization just one comment if you
had licensed the bore patent on uh hash
and sign that charity used you would
have made a bad business investment
because it got invalidated when they got
sued so I think you can use it now
freely I was going to open
it uh three quick questions first have
you thought about latency in uh
synchronous interchange between an open
service mode second are there micro
payment implications for helping a lot
of Publishers who have lost their
business models and people want to pay
little amounts for stuff but they don't
want to subscribe or register for 400
Publications and third is there uh
lessons to be learned from telephone
cellular portable numbers how that
actually happened was it consumer rights
was it regulatory legislative was it
people getting pissed off that they
couldn't bring their phone number maybe
that mechanism could be used to help
move this forward because it wasn't a
technological thing it was more of a
consumer thing I think okay
so uh trying so go going back to the
first one which was uh
oh The Interchange latency yeah um the
reason that I switched from uh looking
at web RTC to looking at Mock uh was one
much smaller vulnerability space you
know um 100,000 lines of code instead of
tens of millions in web RTC but also
demonstrations of glass to glass of you
know down there in the microsc range
really impressive stuff now now that
would that would get worse however if
you were to start to use um mechanisms
for traffic uh analysis avoidance uh so
there's that but the idea is yes you
will have direct a Tob uh Communications
a second one was okay micro payments yes
I did actually write the first internet
draft on micro payments back in
'95
um yes I am very keen on doing them but
I think that right now I've got rather a
large system and one of the reasons that
I don't want to go down any route that
looks like payments right now is because
there are so many Ponzi Co coins and
crypto ponies and I'm sorry
but well I you know I I I knew how finny
he was a friend and yeah I respect what
he did and cosplaying with satosi was
great yeah but
I am I I am deeply offended by the idea
of proof of work proof of waste I find
morally
offensive and I find what Mark andrees
has done with to be
absolutely diabolical he's a really re
he was a billionaire and what he spent
his last five years doing trying to con
poor people out of his money what a real
yeah okay I'm
be
yeah uh okay do we have time for one
more or oh I think we okay's uh very
quickly so I love that very much I'm
trying to understand a little more about
your revocation so maybe this is a
continuation of the divorce question but
it sounded like if I uh lose access to a
device the Quorum of shared Keys has a
key member which is like a cloud service
that is not itself uh
but no Quorum can exist unless it
includes that cloud so that I can always
revoke my phone because that the the the
phone is going to ask the cloud can I
have your fraction of the key does that
mean that if this trusted third party
disappears or is blocked or is
unavailable that I can't activate new
devices or can I have a quorum of user
control devices that are outside of the
cloud and if so how does that affect my
ability to revoke one of those devices
if I lose control of it okay so in
Theory uh in thatth this gets into the
part where yes it's been tested but
whether it works in today's code is uh a
good qu yeah basically there's enough
information in the uh administrator
account to be able to reconstruct the
whole system if you move to from one
provider to another what you would end
up doing is effectively reconnecting
each device to the new
provider and so that becomes the
um the the challenge you how do you make
sure that this doesn't become an orphan
advice you know I have my toaster how
does my toaster know to
know know where to ask to find out where
it's gone I have strong feelings about
connecting toasters to the internet but
thank you very much I yeah I have a food
blender that's Internet connected
because why anyway thank thanks very
much give it up