Coming up next on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
Were doing about 150,000 a day. Can it go higher? It can. It overshadows
everything else. Alberta is producing some of the dirtiest oil
in the world. If we were all like that, the world would be in trouble.
It drops these are huge burning embers. There is enough seek oil
beneath my feet to me in Canada has the third-largest
oil third-largest reserves can deliver on its climate
change commitments while continuing to pump out huge amounts of oil.
welcome to my home. A very strange pleasure to be here. (MUSIC
PLAYING). . 6am at Calgary airport, I joined the ranks of Canada or your
commuters, the thousands who fly in to the vast oilfields for weeks at a
time. My guide is the executive vice president of Cenovus Energy, in
charge of oil sands production. We drive through miles of forest, Elks
and caribou, but underneath this wilderness is the biggest tar sands
or the reserve in the world. We are in the southern end of the deposit
stop we are currently producing 160,000 barrels a day. Let's get it
on. Cenovus Energy, this plant is a state-of-the-art oil system
extraction which belts melds the beach and within. A network of
pipelines runs through hundreds of square kilometres of forest. Cenovus
Energy promotes this as responsible production. No vast scars in the
landscape, no toxic lakes of waste. But it is highly energy intensive.
It disturbs one of the great wildernesses and produces millions
of barrels of fossil fuels and millions of tons of carbon emission.
It enriches Cenovus Energy and the economy but what does it do to the
planet? This is really the sharp end of the
operation, literally. LAUGHTER We are literally drilling new holes. It
depends on the thickness but it can have anyone between one - 2 million
barrels. Over its life.. This is what it is all about, our
cup of Canada's tar sands oil ready to go down the pipeline to the
world's consumers will not. I think the challenge is not really oil
production it is the carbon emissions associated with oil. What
we have unlocked is enabling this resource to be part of the energy
mix. In the last years we have dropped the intensity by over 33%.
But it is much more energy intensive than the oils reduced in the vast
reserves in the Middle East? It is a heavy oil, it takes more prizes and
technology. At a time when Canada is committed to reducing significantly
its carbon emissions, you are raising yours. It accounts for, you
know, less than 1% of global emission... In Canada it is much
more significant... In Alberta, the have the highest carbon levy put on
as well as an emission limit, you're not going to find that anywhere else
on the planet. I spoke to a senior official in green -- Greenpeace who
says the rest of Canada is basically going to have to shut down to meet
Canada's overall commitment. Climate change is one of the biggest
challenges we face today and we are part of that which means we are
going to be part of that solution and we have worked and are working
with the government, academia, that have come together to say this is
not an adversarial relationship but how do we come together and create
the solutions. But the easy solution and forgive me for being blindingly
simple, is for you to leave this tar sands oil in the ground. Any report,
oil is still going to be needed. We are going to need all forms of
energy. Goldman Sachs predicts it could go down to $25 a barrel. It
will continue to produce... But that too many people is the problem, not
only are you listening to the critique but also to the market. A
lot does not stop us. If we had to shut it down, for safety concerns,
the presses and revenue continues. Environmentalists have made it plain
that forest fires are getting worse and more severe in this part of the
world because of climatic change. Do you accept there is a link? It is
one of the biggest challenges of our time. We will continue to drive to
get oil and get to a zero State to use oil. The floods, the rain, they
are naturally changing. Climate change is something we have to take
care of. You are the kind of man changing it. It is naturally going
to continue to evolve and Acho. -- occur. Fort McMurray is the capital
of Alberta's tar sands region. It has been a boomtown, the population
swelling to 90,000. But in May 2016, a massive wildfire, they dubbed the
beast, swept through the forest around Fort McMurray and into the
town itself. This is what the beast left behind. Here we are approaching
your driveway. It has been obliterated. Welcome to my home stop
it is one of the strangest home visits I have ever made. You are
smiling and calm but this is your life? It just does not feel real. We
were shifting through the ashes trying to find anything. Were there
she is at that time? There has been a lot of tears. -- tears. Right now
you can divide four Murray into two - incinerated or untouched. The bulk
of the town was saved thanks to the fire crews led by the fire chief,
Darby Allen. The people here are devastated, everyone is devastated.
The community is devastated. This is going to go on and it will take us a
while to come back from it. You can see just a short distance away where
the forest has been impacted by the fire. The evidence is all around.
This is one of our commander posts throughout the incident. So the fire
was all in here, it jumped the river and we did not think it would jump
at the river... It is truly amazing. 1200 seat wise. You have flames five
feet in the air, it takes it up and then drops of these huge burning
embers on the other side and eventually it just went. What is
said to those, and they were not many, but they were loud, who drew a
connection between Fort McMurray's role as original headquarters of the
sands industry and the fact that in the end of the town suffered from a
fire they linked to climate change factors. Some of them said, you know
what, Fort McMurray had it coming. I would be upset from that statement.
It is a wonderful town, it has wonderful people. It gets painted as
a dirty old town but I do not see the link to this fire with industry
at all. Environmental conditions played a part because it was so dry
but what would they have us done? How do you control that forest to
make sure it is friendly in the future. It is a very difficult thing
to do. Life has returned to Fort McMurray, the forest will regrow but
the fire poured fuel on the flames of a raging debate. Are these kinds
of natural disasters linked to climate change? Is the warming tied
to the fossil fuel driven economy which Fort McMurray feeds?
Greenpeace has a profound problem with oil sands production? It is
because of the impact it is having, to climate, land, water, Indigenous
rates. We have a new Prime Minister in Canada who says the king could
the new with responsible reduction of tar sands oil and, at the same
time, deliver on all our Paris climate change commitments? The
signs that not match the Prime Minister's talking points. When you
look at oil sands and its development, you cannot continue to
expand and add 30 mega towns of emissions -- towns, and meet what we
said we were going to meet in Paris. On the contrary, you can introduce a
carbon tax which the provincial government in Alberta is committed
to. They are going to plough some of that money into renewable energy...
There are some good talking points. They are not just talking points,
they are facts, they have laid out a plan. A price on carbon is great but
the rise is substantially lower than it is not really going to change
consumer behaviour and industry behaviour. Movie into renewables is
great at the same time you have this looming climate disaster in the oil
sands that overshadows everything else. It is a fine for a full-time
activist such big contemplative pronouncements but, get real, they
cannot walk away from this massive potential reserve of oil. It is not
just Greenpeace that is saying this, international agencies as saying
that three quarters of oil fossil fuel reserves and need to be in the
ground. Our government has acted very irresponsibly in the past few
decades to build an economy around for the reserves and potentially it
has the capability of ending a life in the planet. You appear to be
blaming Fort McMurray because it is an oil producing centre for the fire
it brought upon itself. It seems very unreasonable.
We do not blame them for the tragedy that overtook the town. We do say
that climate change is having a severe impact and accelerating and
making those fires much worse. Can you prove that? We are outside of a
natural fire cycle, fire is a natural part of the cycle. I think a
lot of people in Fort McMurray just experienced a sign of climate
change. His Excellency, the Prime Minister of Canada. Earlier this
year, the new premier, just Trudeau signs of Paris climate change treaty
and promised to cut Canada's emissions. I'm a change will in test
our intelligence, our compassion and our will. That was the good news,
especially in Calgary. That is where Canadian big oil has its
headquarters. Downtown Calgary is a forest of
steel and glass. The oil sounds industry has put a lot of money into
the city and hundreds of thousands of jobs in two Alberta. That means
that the industry has a big political voice. Shannon Phillips is
Alberta's environment Minister. Her province has promised to play its
part in the carbonising Canada. But is that possible without weaning the
economy of tar sands oil? How much of the vast, vast amount of oil
under the soil in Alberta must stay under the soil if this province and
the nation of Canada is to be a responsible part of the effort to
control climate change. Companies are in the process of examining what
they have to see what can be developed under a low energy use
scenario. All of the companies we have at the table, and Roman group
and Indigenous peoples are examining bad and seeing what they can develop
most responsibly under the legislation. Let's be specific. I
will quote you one of the most influential environmentalists in
North America. He founded the -- group 350.org. He says most of what
is currently under the soil will have to stay there if Canadair is to
play their part. With all due respect to environmental groups
outside of this province, our primary responsibility is to the
people of Alberta. We have gone through a massive drop in oil prices
and tens of thousands of people are out of work. They are not the ones
who are making the decisions. Are you aware of how Canada seems right
now, particularly the oil sands industry. To quote the
environmentalists, Canada right now is a dangerous and destructive force
upon the fun at. Unconventional and extreme fossil fuels, like oil
sands, must stay in the ground. There will be all sorts of voices
and we bring them to the table. That voice is not at the table because
your stance is entirely contradictory to that. Your stance
is that by hook or by crook you will find a way to develop your oil sands
and bring something like 170 billion barrels of oil, potentially, you
will bring that to the surface. I think we need to back up and look at
the actual reserves and the companies who are sitting with us to
negotiate an emissions cap. It is account. Why do you not make it and
output cap? Why don't you tell the companies you will put a limit on
the amount of oil they can produce? We have to put a limit on emissions.
And that is the issue here, the carbon dioxide not the stands. But
this is highly carbon inefficient, the production of this sort of oil.
So if you want to deliver real emissions cuts you will need to cut
production. This facility produces at a clean conventional level. We
know it is possible and particular companies have those technologies
available. There is going to be a negotiation and a moving forward
under the legislated cap. Right now, as I understand it, your
oil sands industry emits something like 17 megatons of ring house gas
emissions per year. You have said the cap at 100 megatons. In the
context of the Paris agreement and the global decarbonisation plan that
is now out there, Alberta, far from being a key player is actually
giving licensed for an expansion, a major expansion, of emissions. I
would not characterise it as a major expansion. But what can you
councillor what I just said? In the first place, to put a cap on
emissions... But, with respect, you have put on a cap with which the big
oil companies love. They are happy. That suggests you have not been very
tough on them. The focus was environmental defence. One of
Canada's loudest environmental voices has led many highly
conflictual environmental campaigns and an institute that has been a
long-standing environmental voice here in Alberta. Additionally,
Indigenous Peoples stood with us on the stage that day. The rest of the
country will have to squeeze its emissions in a completely
unrealistic fashion. It has been said that if you hear Alberta you
reach a 100 megaton women and reddish Columbia Hills new gas
terminals that it is disgusting, it will be impossible for Canada or as
a whole to other emissions sufficiently to meet the 2030 Paris
targets that President Trudeau signed up to. There are a number of
hypotheticals and a number of ways we have not taken things into
account. We have been taking them into account. Reductions in methane,
for example. A respected institute has looked at that. If everyone were
to adopt a global carbon plan, the entire globe would be reaching its
targets. Alberta is producing some of the dirtiest oil in the world. If
everyone were like Alberta, the world would go to hell in a
handcart. In the interim, 20% of Canadian GDP relies on Alberta's oil
and gas industry. Short term. That is the phrase. Short term. So you
are saying Canada is stark. I don't know if I would use word stuck. I
think there is a load of opportunity there to add value to the resources
and find different ways of using them. Many people watching this will
be a way of Canada's most famous environmental voice, Naomi Klein.
She said right now Canada record on climate change years a crime against
humanity's future. Do you worry that here in Alberta you are a part of a
problem which is going to cost Canada dearly? In terms of
international reputation? I think what we are doing in Alberta is we
have taken our first steps to recognise that we have a problem and
to take action on it. I will make no apologies for it.
Canada does not want to be seen as one of the world's polluting powers.
But of the country insists on pumping out every drop of tar sands
oil, well, it is a label that may just stick.