is there or a start
well
and
nice and warm G
good
smack my hoes although alright
hey can you guys hear me in the back is that a yes or a No
now can you guys hear me in the back now
no okay alright
you're here at the hardware
and electronics Q&A panel my name is kingpin
there's a job a man a Brian oblivion
is supposed to be here I'm sure he'll show up late so
if you're at the wrong pain I can't leave now because we're watching you is
actually gonna be a hard act to follow after CDC but
it's probably gonna be a little more boring but I basically what this is
is a roundtable discussion
I about hardware electronics issues anything any questions no questions are
stupid
if you have like the flea market something something you found in the
trash you don't know what it is hopefully brought it we can
discuss and check it out the questions don't need to be targeted to one of us
if you just want to ask a general question go ahead and I'm sure there's
someone else in the room that's going to be able to answer it
um obviously we don't know everything is just a
good way for everybody to get some discussions in I'm
so before we open it up to questions what we're gonna do is run through
Who We R Who where we come from and some the current project we're working on
so as I said before kingpin I come from Boston
I am member a block to the industry's which is currently the
at stake research development labs so I get to research things all day long
um when I enjoy doing the most
is reverse engineering hardware products a
mostly hardware security products any products really but
our security products currently are the best things to look at there's a lot of
problems with them it's kind of a new field so there's a lot of
a.m. problems with the developers and they're not really sure how to implement
security in their products
um a mother and a portable electronics in microprocessor system designed so
basic embedded system type stuff um
something I announced back in 1997 that beyond hope
got three years ago um was I was doing a lot a Palm Pilot development
I'm since then the the whole PDA feel this card on a lot so it's
it's a know it's really blown up in Upshur half the people here at least
have palm pilots
I announced award I love that I was working on back then
didn't have a name a I just finished it
is called TBA I has a a bunch of different meetings you can think of one
that you want um
what it is is is basically a a word I'll or portable word either
on throwed up in a ceiling if you're if you wanna do a a
a word I'll from somewhere you're not supposed to be throwing the phone can
palm pilots are so she can I pay 25 for 50 bucks for one
but the word I learned a phone can walk away if it gets stolen who cares if not
you come back in a week and you have your prefix can do whatever so
kinda cool um you can either grab it from the loft website
or come up here afterwards I can be mean to you there's a few other applications
that are
beam to you as well if you have a collar palm definitely come see me
I'm not going to talk about what I have but it's a brand new program only works
on color palms
is called blue balls so I'll leave it at that
so so my current research projects
I am summer you may have seen an advisory that I recently released
on the Aladdin eat ok in which the USB hardware token
I have one in my pocket but they're kinda small
you want to display it there we go to tiny
tiny a a little embedded system I'm connects the USB port on the PC
and what it does basically it's it's meant for authentication at stores
a.m. private data credentials anything you want really x5 and I certificates
on 10 supposed to be this private thing that proves you are who you are
so having this thing its is two factor authentication
having this thing a physical device and knowing the pin number which protects
the data
that supposed to prove you are unfortunately is not exactly
that simple um there's a problem with
the Aladdin you talkin a the was the actual before I say that
the these things are are simple embedded systems
the components on the board are a piece a cake to probe and kind of
experiment with which made it such an easy target there's not really any kinda
tamper
evidence or tamper resistance on these things he can open the thing up really
easily
clip onto the chips and do all sorts experimentation with it
um so for the e talkin all the data is protected by one pin number
it's an eight by value um what these guys
did though is they left it default then
so it default login a string basically they left that
programmed into the external memory device have every single device
so regardless of what the user says the pin number two
all you have to do is open the device read the external memory
a move that one default string from its known address which is always fixed
into the usurping area and you can log right in
with the default password grab all the private information at a bit
I am get everything out of it that data
that legitimate user had in there so that's a big problem
and I'm look for another advisory coming out
in about a week on a a similar product
actually a competitor's product that's also USB hardware token and they did the
same thing so
getting into the the hardware side of security products as a lot of things and
there's a lot of problems that could be exploited
a but we can also help the vendors
by fixing their products and have products that we can actually use and
feel good about using
I'm so kinda who all this thing was a cypress
a see why seven-c_ 63,000 what that is is just a a general purpose
microprocessor
which had USB support on board um
there's not that many processors right now that have USB supports its kinda
easy to target that particular processor get any kind of
information I needed on in development kits and stuff like that
am and any use an Atmel CREE prom as the external memory so that's
as some people know it's extremely easy to read those things is no
protection of any sort I am and these guys did encrypt any a
their data on there so I could easily just change that pin
I'm and access other day that's that's not working on now
I am there's a technical white paper that I'm putting out pretty soon
it describes all the attacks that we tried on these keys and some work some
didn't
both from hardware electrical point of view and also mechanical attacks and
software attack so
keep your eyes open for that and a
that's it for me so government take it away
yo yo word
right now occurring this
these allies are pretty about me I'm a philadelphia-based acker for
background are pinching what's pretty much true I
my main area of expertise is judiciary been are hardware design
%uh and drinking which
if anyone was at the bar last night I apologize for anything I've said
a I know those carried back to a room
yes i pod us that people the room to I A
the but anyway i woke up today thankfully
and my mini expertise has been judicially our hardware
I'll and specifically meant kicker expand
and SHF a our website
particularly amplifiers I along with
the actual particulars over us but spectrum systems
and I think along those lines I move more into
now digital logic design I'm working on team to design a very fast very cheap
supercomputer
a I can't give any details on it goes on by the government
and so where they should also be sold to the general public as well
I my main areas enters has been I'll a central issue our communication systems
and a a.m. to rate a pass it as well
I along with the july design and digital our Design
that's about a exit if if
we each have topic so yes further about a
can't know is just being myself yesterday I for another coal things
about
why spread spectrum is a little more inherently secure then
their communication media I along with
what it means I am and
some issues regarding why we don't really have very high data rate
a the S l's until recently what
what DSLR she dies why it's important issue be difficult
allowing us to have very high data rate radio a to everyone and mobile situation
or have
a a very underground digital a network
which were growing it done that start setup are working very hard to work so
the issue to running into it that
so I guess the
his Brian oblivion here
Ryan low right I guess
will take questions so
yeah um deftly up to a microphone here for people to ask questions
yeah okay Hobbit has one the guy with the tie dye
I'm the other happy with the tie dye
um yet if you have any actual action I saw somebody in El
elevator this morning they had some telephone equipment they're gonna bring
here
I am yep stand-up bring it up if you guys have stuff you can either stand in
line to raise their hand or whatever
really informal so I don't know I mean you don't have to sit there
you can't answer something
and I if do we have another camera that we can like zoom in on the stuff and put
it up on that
on the non-existent projected screener
that way everybody in the room can see it if it's small
no are not prepared for that okay
so this is a silver box
you passes around two and we're done chasm its kinda
weird-looking hours
yeah of
ish
yet what it looks like from the top this is a
made by TSgt but never heard a its technical service group
I'm this is not the Gemini system to it and what it looks like there's a buncha
configuration stuff on the front a
initial rate for PlayStation five cents ten cents twenty cents forty cents
play reappoint relay coin mechanism type line type
future enhancements looks like it's it's a device it's actually in the paper on
that
that either I don't know that the real name a bit but it will
it will take the money and basically in Anna
know that anybody feels here
fired all
yes
he's old
us
0 cool
your look at this
brand oblivion I showed up gonna come up
start
I area said
and there'd
the best
sure
here
X
yeah
its sleaze
Austin one up
okay us
okay well um yes will pass this around it
I guess the people showing hardware is a little harder than I thought
um if people two people have any real questions
someone mentioned that apart by the question okay
yes
men and
no hmmm sorry
yet next now um not at all
good yeah said
Riya other actuate this question dead serious
a so let's talk about what OS CMA specifically
city mayors a spread-spectrum tuning other
re-read the question was hell a sensitive is current solar technology
jamming specific why been jamming
aka the question was hell
help water boiler systems jamming up joystick CDMA for example city mayors
nice test case
are no specific case because it's a really are only
true spread spectrum a say our protocol out there right now
what sprint spectrum means is you have your incoming
will let sorry about 20 for a very simplified version
a a months by both signal and
plus Bible signal so it's -1
only his your own one okay and use an end to a mixer along with
a suitor encode which has a frequency rate much higher that then your incoming
doughtery
what happens if you look at the power spectral density is so much easier by
Helen overhead or wait for some shit like that
you look at the power spectral density a few regular single before spraying you
see a single spike come up
and some homes over the side due to the
a the variable frequency nature and the square wave nature the actual doughtery
we look at sprint spectrum your power spectral density is
don't much further out the status
as president ratio to the property at that modulation format direct secret
specifically direct sequence spread spectrum that see a Mac I am
and what happened as a result is that
if you want to if you look at the signal a scope if the
a actual the difficulty rate above the spreading sequences much greater than
out the actual data sequence
you'll to see no reason to skip mathematically importantly
mathematically
your signal is it actually is very similar in toys if you take an
autocorrelation I love your signal space
with itself for ok relations with Celtic correlation ovett a
what actually looks like is it is very very very narrow actual correlation area
which site which is a sign that a is very much clothes in noise and then
no signal nor signals or correlation itself is just one spike
at that the tally 0 what this means up
okay is that unless you have the exact
PN sequence on the other end you never be all get back
recovery ritual signal the PN sequences are designed to be completely worth
backing of each other
so that if you try to generate another sequence is not exactly the same
a a a number of convolution reaction at nags acquiescing coalition to each
but medical shit a at the same each
data bit you never be overcome the original signal now
was interesting if you tried jamming a standard aspects Beckham system with a
single tone
a narrow pretend like you let's say you want to jam zone on walkie talkie
Ukiah upland exactly what's the use in the same modulation format with a lot
more power
because the way spread spectrum works that GM's jamming signals is spread
itself fluorescence signals the spread
so if you actually look at the power spectral density after the mixer
which differ dis pressure signal a weird signal
you'll see you're reducing oh and your interferes very Broadbent
right so why isn't there a bit the actuals a single Spyker and there've
been jimmy is very difficult
why been jamming is a I was impractical because the power considerations
your Jerry you know if the integrator that that I read that him out
you know power you have to be on a dump in turn to when our power you have to be
eligible for power gym decision or get up to get her to use a
class runs or or power transistors but the power considerations are exceeding
yes Park caps a head
but video profits at again it is you not to go get the power you need to do it
arm intention point that was brought up
kinda recently a someone ahead this thing as it meets
suck dot I am about the idea ever jamming a satellite
on the way workers by Jerry a large a
a single frequency power spike and what there was dissent the front and the
receiver I want to explain what that means why is actually important
and why a what you were doing this now I am
basically our front enable fires are receivers have a very narrow dynamic
range
to allow time to fit a low noise amplifier were narrow a response they
respect the jammer
and when you generate a very large a
single frequency very narrow Pam with signal
very high power arm if forces the front and amplifier what's called
1tb compression are forced into compression and what happens at the game
that infers reduced see reducing know you try receive
actually gets dumped biggest push further for that the noise for
jack cheese possible by Jerry enough power you get exploited
the properties love up receiver technology and and therefore effectively
JM
a a a spread spectrum signal but the prior best way do something like this
would be a very
a narrow beam with antenna point somewhere close to receiver
I'll with a local a receiver to the Capri
definitely seaver is dare to question
no on next X
own
like good
are painted
Mahan I was hoping you would ask that question
um no I haven't done anything with box accidents
some we ran out of the the lockbox eg kids back in late ninety
8 97 or something um
I gotta give up on parks at I thought flex was gonna kinda
come in and take it away a probably
I don't really have a favorite method now but
if I were to do it again i probably use maybe like a a pic processor
I am have a portable box a daughter just write some software with the pic
maybe external circuitry if I needed um to have a actual
portable box like to go to maybe look it up to
a to a pager so take the the discriminator output from the pager the
actual
unfiltered on signal from the pager into this
whatever circuit a but I would probably wouldn't do with the laptop or anything
made with the Palm Pilot
have secretary does have a serial input into the palm pilot or something like
that
go go ahead
I can this
spell it
for now as a buddy here that here yet doing it
units went to up to anybody know and wants to explain what it is
yeah aired virgins in there somewhere so it's a
okay so it's a net appliance like the eye opener
where okay it uses a
Cyrus chipset with the would you say I D okay
I'm sure it's possible go-ahead
others say it did because I've actual manufacturer have a complete
writer system is so extremely high that no one does
so it's all a bit of shopping analogies additionally the Casa doing anything
that would
of you skate something would add so much would have more time
the actual production costs and the actual design costs out no one ever does
this
you are very rarely do it now then they do with the eyeopener age but top oxy on
it then I mean an
that was their idea obfuscation or you know for being a painter but depends on
the ID card or by the flipper
price on the most convenient for them when you're actually manufacturing
aboard
so I think be pretty easy reader yeah definitely another point with the
manufacturing cost is the manufactures
up these boards need to be other test them a and I'm sure they're not gonna
want to develop their whole test fixtures just a
you know for this one cheap proprietary product
so it's probably just from my understanding the eye opener was just
standard
motherboard stuff obfuscated with proxy covered any party whatever
um so I'm pretty sure that would be the same if
if you know where to buy 'em sure the people would want to know from the
Virgin website
your yeah
you can guess I want your probably come up with some other fun sites at same
time
um there's a question over here I just wonder if you've messed around with
and compared the visor hardware to the actual
hardware because I've noticed that the visor a running with the same OS runs a
helluva lot faster than the palm does
everything times when what you don't that's a good question there's
um the visor is a new PA that's
made by hand spring which is actually company formed by Jeff Hawkins
who is the founder of um pump computing are the pilot
back in the day a there's one here it looks strikingly similar to the Palm
Pilot is actually bigger
and a a little more bulky um
what the hand spring is is basically it's
it's a standard Palm Pilot but is made by those other company it runs
um a ROM version of Palm OS 3.3
up most the palm pilots now have Flash robs you can upgrade the software
these visors are stuck at OS 3.3 currently
um their hardware their poor design is different a
but it operates just the same I think the visors have
um so the palm pilots and the the palm up to the palms 3
run on the Dragon Ball 6328 is the Motorola processor
to 60,000 compatible I'm I think from the three
to the are from above the 32
maybe like the seven they use the drag about easy processor which is just a an
enhancement of that it kinda takes away some %uh the unused functionality
above the 6328 and is a little cheaper
a.m. it's also a little bit faster and I think that's what the visor uses
now there's also a 68 328 VZ which just came out and I'm not sure if it's in any
devices
yet possibly the part 3 see which is the color version that
the the the BCE is has
has a PLL for for up getting up to thirty three megahertz the system clock
which is
basically twice as fast as the palm pilots were or 16 points 7 megahertz
okay so the the part 3 C's
compare bones be to the visor I've just been told but
basically everything that runs on the Palm OS platform from
first 3.3 is gonna run on any any bomb was platform
the good thing about the hands bring device if you go to handspring dot com
they have an expansion port in the back which is
totally hackable a what it is it is a bunch of
direct connects to summit the I'm I'll ports and some other
the port circuitry in pins on the Dragon Ball a
which makes it nice the original palm pilots only had a serial port
and there's only so much you can do with the serial port without having
external circuits here come some CDC stickers I think thanks that veggie
feel free to come up here to answer some questions with us
um so this this spring board module they call it is this expansion port
on the handspring on the visors and
its it's amazing there's a bunch away papers up on Hans bring site you can
make
custom circuit boards a to basically do whatever you want I think they have an
mp3 player
currently out they have a camera a.m.
basic consumer applications but you could basically do whatever you want
with that
they also have some that just have a flash on board see you can
right software gonna disturb you like a cartridge am
so much a really wide want to do that because it's going to cost a lot of
money
but definitely take a look at the answering device if you wanted
to do any kind of hardware modifications and also action on that note the par-3
axe I believe made by yes a one for me
'em the palm 3x also has an expansion port but is not really defined as well
as the
springboard module
yeah
all right way where you get thrown out you guys gonna do something cool
right what are you a have a really good questions are a few
dancer like pop your eyeballs out or something where's the guy that was
rapping at the
at the movie last night I wanna see him go get a ser with that
you have a do-over Newton story to share yeah
your way you aren't saying
if you do sink in we'll give you one but I get a shirt
whatever you want who is the mic
0
well good
mired 0 yes
oh yeah those um you wanna join talk about this
might okay microchip is a is a company that makes some
a budget different integrated circuit circuits a
their pic processors a general-purpose processor
a they're really cheap they're available everywhere
um yet we haven't forgot about the shirts
we'd issues have to pay attention now like school
should yea right if you stay quiet then you get a ser
I'm yet so so the pic processors are
are really cheap you can get them um from digi-key a
digital com I'm basically any electronic store
I've done %uh a lot of development with the mostly for like our projects
so I have things that I use a multi-color LED in like change that
color the LED every minute in
just do some stupid art stuff with that up there really easy to program they
have development kits that are like
maybe 20 bucks 29 bucks so it's something that
that students can use it as a portable enough well-received
old
sees hip
up
art
saw up
art
old
um no the I don't think they're ever gonna go away totally from
OOTP um it yet depends on the application
if you actually want flash and it's also developing
a integrated circuits with Flash technology is still more expensive than
0 TP
um and if you're not going to want to reprogram your system
a you have no DP part what people usually do is they do development with
the flashvars they can
keep on reprogramming the firmware as they're doing development then when they
go in as production they just get around version
I'm have microchip program at their manufacturing plant
send them to the vendor whose manufacturing with that already
programmed
okay well
heard right want
head
yet yeah they do have the UB parts which you race with
UV light as the name would imply um
it does take like 10 to 20 minutes I I don't know how much those are gonna go
away
um I'm sure people as a good news about class is definitely more convenient for
development and also if you wanted the firmware upgrades on your product
anything else
I mean it devil give a specific question about that I mean using Flash
yeah I mean it really depends on a product is
anymore
works well website
production me
range
yes
used
this
the Atmel 8535 is what
okay 512k: I love avram okay
it about it okay or 512 ate a flash in 512 bytes around okay
and thats a generous that's another general purpose i processor
cool and that's Atmel
about to come
what what the to the programming interface you want to know
this
0
a lot a lot of the a lot of the chips that have a flash
are are definitely serial protocols some of them are standards like
here yes step it's gonna be serial for the most part
um and whatever it is it's you you get
there's data sheets that would provide that information on the timing see could
either build it
development system yourself or just use one but it's gonna be standard serial
which
much actual
hitch yes
also from work on some stuff
he more
the air
let's hear it well
us
this
hillside
us his
this
opens process just
his
this yes
his office his
him sold
fine he's on a hard
someone's of aren't
by SeaWorld so
along or its
problems here's so
or number of that this
fast his
his
it's difficult as months all they don't
higher this moment
prime was
said
as
questions I was the mic
closest to
all
right
all yes
rise
all come without knowing exactly what it does that sound a little strange
um do you know what what type a low level stuff P he did
lines
um it net now I actually did a
another I did I designed a medical device based around the 6328
'em that actually used infrared
a and and if the all the infrared
poor is on the Dragon Balls is the UART a.m.
and the infrared it just has date output at 3:16 bit rate which is something that
the infrared transceiver looking to use
um by doing if that's really what he did I wouldn't see how that would actually
damage anything other than maybe
maybe crash the OS is something which you could just reset but I don't think
it would damage the hardware because it's just gonna
I miss is gonna drop our this its
yes
of
yeah
yeah I mean in lessee clobbered the classroom government or the classroom
but I don't know if you have a web page
you know it you know you are up and I okay
what you can email to me and if if anyone else is interested send me e-mail
I King panel of DICOM and uploaded on
that that would be interesting to know writers
more questions good
on old
or
well
nope
should
week yeah I think we will he say something on this
um a lot of times it when I've been were dialing
a there are a lot of systems that don't come up with anything um
it could really be any type of device in it you know not
not every device looked up to modem is going to have an identification string
a it might have some it might be expecting some weird control characters
to turn it on I'm not sure there's one
generic way to identify anyone system a.m.
and if it doesn't identify itself in some ways you know it's basically
impossible to know
unless you actually get it to their site somehow and see what is connected
good yet used
using or
all
action but my understanding of the craft terminals where they were
they just had like um macros basically so it was still you connect
300 bar 200 baht or whatever the crap terminal was the crafter roses big
yellow
lineman handset with the display and everything it's like a a fancy
do we have wanted alright
someone has I guess on the other side but if they can waive it rather be cool
um yeah my understanding is that they just used
a macros so if anything it's just gonna be
you no strings up control characters or something so maybe if you can muck
monitor what those are
maybe with like an RS 232 analyzer are not not I see them to
a.m. Sat I guess something called up the phone line
if you can analyze those strings that you might be a little to recreate that
with the terminal program
or said
it yeah I'm if you're ambitious enough here
Rs him
him
here
online 0 know that this actually is
this isn't a crap terminal but it's something cool head
area anyway yeah
surprise health do gingers
'em your pollard
it looks like some kind of
a.m. him ok mobile thing
up hit it looks like it's either terminal de el
a melodic like a UPS type companies use these things
for keeping track I love their location kinda message
message tracking and is probably a also serves as a portable terminal
which would be kinda cool you have an acoustic coupler hook it up to a
payphone or something like that
yeah here
the actual here's more support
11 release want
work
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muslims you know 10
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just impossible symbols
each us morning and miss
so or raised
here arms anymore Howard
thanks yeah
you
read what happens at you anymore our issue
here you have also called
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you did
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year and yourself
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but they provided security where
Press
raised
all he said
West does on red
processes and his
as
that's that's where
a whose
y'all you
yeah rent
a in I can't comment on that
but wait a week ahead
if you guys were listening earlier you'll understand that sir
way we can check the web page that's better lol
more their heart
up
um
for Palm hardware I don't know any of hand but if you go to
palm gear dot com I that s most like a software site
third-party application site but but they also have like a new section there
were people will announce their hardware products and stuff
so go there as the starting point you'll probably be able to find
you know there's is basically guys working in their garage
making hardware devices for the Palm so so go there first
any
any other yeah there's a few okay
Anna does anyone know how much time we have left we need to save time
to give out the shirts right okay
reliever birth here
3 here issue
i'm for all getting a lot
knowing said try during
hint
his eyes yes said
shot sister
mourners his or a
are you around are on my way of
possibly or just using
here signals isn't
G his
said I think
probably the wire head
a 35 hurts mute are really low signal
that that is really really slow and the
you not got the worry too much about me you know you look at what domain models
for your system dry then adjust retransmission my models
a and what I mean
what exactly that means you not picking up your noise from the
from the actual yeah or not that from your actual entrant Asian as reading
this
I mean II radeon0: every book did he use different interpretation verified
hikers because we know it down to 35 her story and
and ways it turn normal peak to peak or something like that you
I so your own should be or just
attack I supports the filter a I mean you not good
I mean at your lowest frequency which there was five killer
by hurt .5 Virginia High Street he was
need I you're talking earlier
rather large and then BAM with the area is
so you get you not good like if you were so coming with .5 hurt as critical part
atop a bit
at Lake 5 hurts 10 hurts 20 her to not go the only going like nachos out
otherwise year old
effector passband then you could you build a a
a multiple poll 43rd help books on the bottom of it
you go up villa good like copia I want
what is offline good that's right we got the last question what we could talk to
you later anywhere
we're not like going out me at this point
alright here
deal
I give you should shut up
we got one more after this okay %uh we have one more shared
and there's the guy that did the rat at the movie is over here so we're gonna
have some competition
let's take one more really quick question if they're
even our others ahead way back there okay it someone can someone give that
guy my clues about to stand up
him
less bus no comment a
government has no comment i havent but there's actually
I mean I see made by I wanna say motorola
that's an actual flex decoding I C so
I don't know the number of and but if you go to a borderless I check out the
radio I see is
a you might be able to to build up some kind of like the Codex secretary pretty
easily
it is gonna need it a host processor so you could use a pic or
or whatever you want up to do that but I haven't personally know
okay so we have one more shirt
how many people watchers Mike yet do you even know what church these are
here
okay how about this I want this guy did
do is beat box if someone else if someone else comes up here to wraps
along with his beatbox home home
then it will send that we'll send somebody another our government you can
have more shirts
yet we'll we'll send somebody a shirt either a lot shorter or something
that we can find maybe like ac/dc shirt or something H&M shirt
a if someone is the bus to come up here to wrap
oh yeah we have two left okay come on somewhat
I thought you wanted shirts mobile are you here
mobile role I know man lookin like the
like freestyle pretty cool so they want to freestyle
ike
you guys must washer
okay well then we'll save a shirt so I do like 10 seconds of your shit cuz I
was funny as hell
both I'm
I'm them one
bram
them home
held awesome
home home and
home
Jones no you I wanted you want
get this this hell hole
way yes oh my god I like I get the shirt
thanks
alright so I I don't know for at a time or not if
okay well we're at times if you guys have more questions come up thanks a lot
for coming in
come up here and get our our supper let me be me some stuff and we have one more
shirt I think so
so come up for something thanks like you guys