1 00:00:10,257 --> 00:00:12,950 There are would-be murderers all round the world 2 00:00:13,896 --> 00:00:16,744 who want to kill you and me and themselves, 3 00:00:16,779 --> 00:00:23,945 because they are motivated by what they think is the highest ideal. 4 00:00:23,980 --> 00:00:26,387 Of course politics are important, 5 00:00:26,422 --> 00:00:31,105 lraq, Palestine, even social deprivation in Bradford, 6 00:00:31,140 --> 00:00:35,208 but as we wake up to this huge challenge to our civilised values 7 00:00:35,243 --> 00:00:42,012 don't lets forget the elephant in the room, an elephant called religion. 8 00:00:43,568 --> 00:00:50,893 The suicide bomber is convinced that in killing for his God, 9 00:00:50,894 --> 00:00:51,894 he will be fast-tracked to a special martyrs' heaven. 10 00:00:52,576 --> 00:00:54,881 This isn't just a problem of lslam. 11 00:00:54,916 --> 00:00:57,956 In this program I want to examine that dangerous thing 12 00:00:57,959 --> 00:01:02,059 that is common to Judaism and Christianity as well 13 00:01:02,193 --> 00:01:06,480 the process of nonthinking called faith. 14 00:01:08,127 --> 00:01:14,713 I am a scientist, and I believe there is a profound contradiction between science and religious belief. 15 00:01:14,748 --> 00:01:18,106 There is no well-demonstrated reason to believe in god 16 00:01:18,141 --> 00:01:26,038 and I think that the idea of a divine creator belittles the elegant reality of the universe. 17 00:01:26,979 --> 00:01:36,255 The 21st century should be an age of reason, yet irrational, militant faith is back on the march. 18 00:01:36,290 --> 00:01:41,955 Religious extremism is implicated in the world's most bitter and unending conflicts. 19 00:01:41,990 --> 00:01:47,871 "We want the non-Muslims off the lands of Mohammad. We want the kafir out of it." 20 00:01:47,906 --> 00:01:50,767 America, too, has its own fundamentalists. 21 00:01:50,802 --> 00:01:56,285 "The Issue for the next generation is going to be the islamification of Europe." 22 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,234 And in Britain, even as we live in the shadow of holy terror, 23 00:02:00,269 --> 00:02:05,317 our government wants to restrict our freedom to criticise religion. 24 00:02:06,924 --> 00:02:11,346 Science, we are told, should not tread on the toes of theology. 25 00:02:11,381 --> 00:02:16,059 But why should scientists tiptoe respectfully away? 26 00:02:16,094 --> 00:02:20,717 The time has come for the people of reason to say enough is enough. 27 00:02:20,752 --> 00:02:28,080 Religious faith discourages independent thought, it's divisive and it's dangerous. 28 00:02:28,081 --> 00:02:31,845 Root of All Evil? 29 00:02:38,417 --> 00:02:43,386 The God Delusion 30 00:02:45,230 --> 00:02:49,420 lt looks lovely doesn't it? Inoffensive and gentle. 31 00:02:49,455 --> 00:02:52,990 But isn't this the beginning of that slippery slope 32 00:02:52,995 --> 00:02:57,974 that leads to young men with rucksack bombs on the Tube? 33 00:03:01,056 --> 00:03:04,671 If you want to experience the mediaeval rituals of faith, 34 00:03:04,706 --> 00:03:08,845 the candle light, incense, music, important-sounding dead languages, 35 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,506 nobody does it better than the Catholics. 36 00:03:12,541 --> 00:03:21,631 At Lourdes in southern France, the assault on the senses appeals to us not to think, 37 00:03:21,666 --> 00:03:24,352 not to doubt, not to probe. 38 00:03:25,473 --> 00:03:33,926 And if we can retain our faith against the evidence, in the teeth of reality, the more virtuous we are. 39 00:03:33,961 --> 00:03:39,580 Pretty impressive sight isn't it? I could imagine finding it very seductive, 40 00:03:39,615 --> 00:03:45,940 partly because of the tremendous feeling of group solidarity that there must be. 41 00:03:45,975 --> 00:03:48,769 If you have the delusion that you're Napoleon, 42 00:03:48,804 --> 00:03:53,290 it must be fairly a lonely feeling because nobody else agrees with you. 43 00:03:53,325 --> 00:03:57,206 Your faith that you are Napoleon needs a lot of shoring up. 44 00:03:57,241 --> 00:04:03,806 But these people here, thousands of people all have exactly the same delusion, 45 00:04:03,841 --> 00:04:09,156 and that must give wonderful reinforcement to their faith. 46 00:04:14,427 --> 00:04:18,495 I used to think reason had won the war against superstition 47 00:04:18,530 --> 00:04:24,245 but it's quite shaking to witness the faithful droves trooping through Lourdes. 48 00:04:27,689 --> 00:04:32,760 This is a benign herd but it supports a backward belief system 49 00:04:32,795 --> 00:04:35,970 that I believe reason must challenge. 50 00:04:49,664 --> 00:04:52,092 Daylight reveals more of this shrine, 51 00:04:52,127 --> 00:04:57,008 where a myth is perpetuated that a virgin who gave birth, Christ's mother Mary, 52 00:04:57,043 --> 00:05:03,163 appeared here once to an impressionable, and I do mean impressionable, young girl. 53 00:05:05,233 --> 00:05:08,649 The faithful make the pilgrimage here because they believe 54 00:05:08,684 --> 00:05:14,620 that terrible afflictions can be cured by dragging their poor bodies up to a pool of water 55 00:05:14,655 --> 00:05:18,551 where the Virgin Mary made her miraculous appearance. 56 00:05:20,660 --> 00:05:25,032 In reality, they're probably more likely to catch something from thousands of other pilgrims 57 00:05:25,067 --> 00:05:27,694 who've wallowed in the same water. 58 00:05:37,724 --> 00:05:40,413 Is it something that Catholics feel they ought to do in their life, 59 00:05:40,448 --> 00:05:43,801 rather like Muslims going on the Hajj to Mecca? 60 00:05:43,836 --> 00:05:46,712 Well no, but you don't have to be a Catholic to do it you see, 61 00:05:46,747 --> 00:05:52,613 I know a lot of people that are not Catholics at all and they've been here. 62 00:05:57,873 --> 00:06:00,109 And what are you hoping to get out of it? 63 00:06:00,144 --> 00:06:05,288 Well I've got a lot out of it: I've got faith, I've got trust and a belief that 64 00:06:05,323 --> 00:06:09,642 there is a person out there who is stronger than any medical person. 65 00:06:09,677 --> 00:06:11,265 Right. What about a cure though? 66 00:06:14,245 --> 00:06:18,751 It may seem tough to question these poor desperate peoples' faith, 67 00:06:21,332 --> 00:06:25,048 but isn't bracing truth better than false hope? 68 00:06:27,838 --> 00:06:30,969 What is the evidence for any miracles? 69 00:06:31,748 --> 00:06:37,997 There are actually 66 declared miracles, there are about 2000 unexplained cures here, 70 00:06:38,032 --> 00:06:42,776 but then we would say there are millions of people who have been healed in different ways. 71 00:06:42,811 --> 00:06:45,862 healed in some sort of mental way? 72 00:06:45,897 --> 00:06:50,289 Healed in spiritual ways where people who have come to terms with their own particular situation, 73 00:06:50,324 --> 00:06:53,792 people who have rediscovered God in their lives again, 74 00:06:53,827 --> 00:06:57,426 people who have received a new grace here in Lourdes. 75 00:06:57,461 --> 00:07:00,096 So you tend to get about 80,000 people per year? 76 00:07:00,543 --> 00:07:03,065 About 80,000 sick pilgrims who come here every year. 77 00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:07,211 That's been going for more than a century now? About a century and half? - Yes. 78 00:07:07,246 --> 00:07:13,673 So, 80,000 per year, and of those 66 have been cured. I just want to ... 79 00:07:13,708 --> 00:07:16,305 ...you see the way I'm thinking. - Yep. 80 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:19,540 So the hard fact is that over the years, 81 00:07:19,575 --> 00:07:24,348 with their millions of pilgrims, there have been 66 supposed miracles. 82 00:07:27,641 --> 00:07:35,987 I cant help remarking that nobody has ever had a miraculous re-growing of a severed leg. 83 00:07:36,022 --> 00:07:39,596 The cures are always things that might have got better anyway. 84 00:07:41,256 --> 00:07:43,659 People lean on their faith as a crutch, 85 00:07:43,694 --> 00:07:47,809 but I fear that the comfort it provides is a shallow pretence, 86 00:07:47,844 --> 00:07:52,952 and I want to look at how the suspension of disbelief inherent in faith 87 00:07:52,987 --> 00:07:57,049 can lead to far more dangerous ideas beyond. 88 00:08:12,353 --> 00:08:19,296 People like to say that faith and science can live together side by side, but I don't think they can. 89 00:08:19,331 --> 00:08:21,450 They're deeply opposed. 90 00:08:23,666 --> 00:08:27,637 Science is a discipline of investigation and constructive doubt, 91 00:08:27,672 --> 00:08:33,049 questing with logic, evidence and reason to draw conclusions. 92 00:08:33,084 --> 00:08:40,290 Faith, by stark contrast, demands a positive suspension of critical faculties. 93 00:08:42,703 --> 00:08:50,038 Science proceeds by setting up hypotheses, ideas or models, and then attempts to disprove them. 94 00:08:50,073 --> 00:08:54,525 So a scientist is constantly asking questions, being sceptical. 95 00:08:56,234 --> 00:09:00,899 Religion is about turning untested belief into unshakable truth, 96 00:09:00,934 --> 00:09:05,872 through the power of institutions and the passage of time. 97 00:09:10,877 --> 00:09:15,886 Let me give you an example of this with a story of the assumption of Mary. 98 00:09:17,038 --> 00:09:23,093 Catholics believe that Jesus' mother Mary was so important she didn't physically die. 99 00:09:23,128 --> 00:09:29,679 lnstead, her body shot off into heaven when her life came to a natural end. 100 00:09:30,444 --> 00:09:36,721 Of course there is no evidence for this, even the Bible says nothing about how Mary died. 101 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:43,224 The belief that her body was lifted into heaven emerged about six centuries after Jesus' time. 102 00:09:43,259 --> 00:09:47,898 Made up, like any tale, and spread by word of mouth. 103 00:09:47,933 --> 00:09:51,851 But it became established tradition. 104 00:09:51,886 --> 00:09:55,062 lt was handed down over centuries. 105 00:09:55,097 --> 00:09:57,966 And the odd thing about tradition is that the longer it's been going, 106 00:09:58,001 --> 00:10:00,519 the more people seem to take it seriously. 107 00:10:00,554 --> 00:10:06,073 lt's as though sheer passage of time makes something that was to begin with just made up, 108 00:10:06,108 --> 00:10:09,734 turns it into what people believe as a fact. 109 00:10:12,185 --> 00:10:18,790 By 1950, the tradition was so strongly established that it became official truth. 110 00:10:18,825 --> 00:10:21,101 It became authority. 111 00:10:22,612 --> 00:10:25,748 The Vatican decreed that Roman Catholics must now believe 112 00:10:25,783 --> 00:10:28,679 in the doctrine of the Assumption of the Virgin. 113 00:10:29,758 --> 00:10:33,801 Now if you had asked Pope Pious XII how he knew it was the truth, 114 00:10:33,836 --> 00:10:36,943 he would have said you had to take his word for it 115 00:10:36,978 --> 00:10:40,901 because it had been ''revealed to him'' by God. 116 00:10:41,702 --> 00:10:43,548 He shut himself away and thought about it. 117 00:10:43,583 --> 00:10:46,719 He just thought, private thoughts inside his own head, 118 00:10:46,754 --> 00:10:48,832 and convinced himself that, 119 00:10:48,867 --> 00:10:53,433 no doubt on tortuous theological grounds, that it just had to be so. 120 00:10:57,104 --> 00:10:58,805 None of this is particularly harmful 121 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,859 when it is limited to the Virgin Mary going to heaven. 122 00:11:02,988 --> 00:11:06,122 But what about the Pope's personal convictions when it comes to, 123 00:11:06,157 --> 00:11:11,674 say, discouraging the use of condoms in AIDS-ridden Africa? 124 00:11:12,983 --> 00:11:16,077 Then, the power of the church through tradition, authority 125 00:11:16,112 --> 00:11:21,112 and revelation comes with an appalling human cost. 126 00:11:23,798 --> 00:11:26,177 It would be unfair to pick on the Catholics. 127 00:11:26,212 --> 00:11:28,368 All religions are up to the same tricks. 128 00:11:28,403 --> 00:11:33,581 It could be Muslim Imams issuing fatwahs, it's the same principle. 129 00:11:33,616 --> 00:11:39,078 It's issued by the authority, it then passes down through the ranks to parents, 130 00:11:39,113 --> 00:11:42,995 to children, and all without a shred of evidence. 131 00:11:49,897 --> 00:11:56,348 Unlike science, which sees it as a challenge, religion thrives on unsolved mystery. 132 00:11:56,383 --> 00:12:00,844 For early humanity, what was mysterious and unexplained was so vast 133 00:12:00,879 --> 00:12:03,398 that only an equally vast higher being, 134 00:12:03,433 --> 00:12:07,613 an Alpha male in the sky, could fill that gap. 135 00:12:10,203 --> 00:12:13,474 How would our ancestors have responded to the sunrise? 136 00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:18,852 There must be a fiery charioteer, a Sun God, to accept our sacrifices. 137 00:12:18,887 --> 00:12:24,898 A supreme being who, on the first day of creation, announced ''let there be light''. 138 00:12:27,549 --> 00:12:31,621 But scientific investigation has rolled back that mystery. 139 00:12:32,891 --> 00:12:36,365 Today we know the sun is a giant nuclear reactor. 140 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:44,284 One of billions of stars pumping out electromagnetic radiation, heat and light. 141 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,141 How do scientists know the things that they know 142 00:12:48,176 --> 00:12:50,592 about the world and the universe? 143 00:12:51,719 --> 00:12:55,926 How do we know, for instance, that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old 144 00:12:55,961 --> 00:12:59,514 and that it orbits the sun that nourishes it? 145 00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:08,885 How do we know that these dinosaurs are hundreds of millions of years old? 146 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,819 The answer is evidence. 147 00:13:10,854 --> 00:13:15,355 Tons and tons of mutually supporting evidence. 148 00:13:18,921 --> 00:13:24,218 Science is about testing, comparing and corroborating this mass of evidence, 149 00:13:24,253 --> 00:13:29,550 and using it to update old theories of how things work. 150 00:13:31,079 --> 00:13:35,588 I do remember one formative influence in my undergraduate life. 151 00:13:35,623 --> 00:13:39,041 There was an elderly professor in my department 152 00:13:39,076 --> 00:13:44,316 who had been passionately keen on a particular theory for a number of years. 153 00:13:44,351 --> 00:13:47,468 And one day an American visiting researcher came, 154 00:13:47,503 --> 00:13:51,801 and he completely and utterly disproved our old man's hypothesis. 155 00:13:51,836 --> 00:13:55,984 The old man strode to the front, shook his hand and said, ''My dear fellow, 156 00:13:56,019 --> 00:14:00,719 I wish to thank you. I have been wrong these 15 years.'' 157 00:14:00,754 --> 00:14:03,042 And we all clapped our hands raw. 158 00:14:03,077 --> 00:14:04,906 That was the scientific ideal 159 00:14:04,941 --> 00:14:07,548 of somebody who had a lot invested, 160 00:14:07,583 --> 00:14:10,130 a lifetime almost invested in a theory, 161 00:14:10,165 --> 00:14:13,757 and he was rejoicing that he had been shown wrong, 162 00:14:13,792 --> 00:14:17,209 and scientific truth had been advanced. 163 00:14:21,921 --> 00:14:26,824 So what does the overwhelming evidence of all these fossils tell sceptical science? 164 00:14:26,859 --> 00:14:33,605 How did we and every creature get here, in all our improbable diversity? 165 00:14:35,636 --> 00:14:42,695 In past centuries, humanity had no choice but to resort to a supernatural hypothesis. 166 00:14:42,730 --> 00:14:45,396 Among the many creation myths around the world, 167 00:14:45,431 --> 00:14:49,083 the Book of Genesis imagined a designer God 168 00:14:49,118 --> 00:14:54,342 who fashioned the world and life in just six days. 169 00:14:56,904 --> 00:15:04,111 Finally, in the 19th century, science pieced together what had really happened. 170 00:15:06,519 --> 00:15:09,969 Charles Darwin hit upon a truly brilliant idea 171 00:15:10,004 --> 00:15:13,121 that elegantly explains all of life on earth, 172 00:15:13,156 --> 00:15:19,210 without any need to invoke the supernatural or the divine. 173 00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:31,065 Here's a helpful way to look at the problem Darwin faced. 174 00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:35,889 Climbing a mountain. Let's call it Mount Improbable. 175 00:15:37,786 --> 00:15:43,559 Let's say at the bottom we have the simple bacterial beginnings of lifeon earth. 176 00:15:45,512 --> 00:15:50,987 At the top, man today, or any complicated piece of biology. 177 00:15:51,073 --> 00:15:53,859 So how did we get to the top? 178 00:15:54,673 --> 00:15:58,549 If it had happened by blind chance or by design, 179 00:15:58,584 --> 00:16:05,220 lt would be equivalent to leaping up a sheer cliff in a single bound. 180 00:16:05,255 --> 00:16:07,855 Utterly out of the question. 181 00:16:10,655 --> 00:16:13,560 If we come round the other side of Mount Improbable, 182 00:16:13,595 --> 00:16:15,848 we find something very different. 183 00:16:15,883 --> 00:16:18,989 Here, there is no sudden precipitous cliff, 184 00:16:19,024 --> 00:16:24,510 here there's a gentle slope, a gradient of evolution. 185 00:16:24,545 --> 00:16:30,900 All we have to do is put one foot in front of the other and we'll get to the top. 186 00:16:31,669 --> 00:16:36,329 Darwin's great insight was that life evolved steadily and slowly, 187 00:16:36,364 --> 00:16:40,796 inching its way gradually over four billion years. 188 00:16:42,259 --> 00:16:50,131 Natural selection, not a divine designer, was the sculptor of life. 189 00:16:57,945 --> 00:17:02,641 So evolution, driven by Darwin's motor of natural selection, 190 00:17:02,676 --> 00:17:06,033 gets us to the top of Mount Improbable. 191 00:17:06,068 --> 00:17:11,305 From primeval simplicity to ultimate complexity. 192 00:17:11,340 --> 00:17:15,225 The design hypothesis couldn't even begin to do that, 193 00:17:15,260 --> 00:17:19,314 because it raises an even bigger problem than it solves: 194 00:17:19,349 --> 00:17:22,772 who made the designer? 195 00:17:24,193 --> 00:17:28,349 The abundance and variety of life on earth may seem improbable 196 00:17:28,384 --> 00:17:32,524 but it's self-evidently futile to invent an improbable god 197 00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:35,985 to explain that very improbability. 198 00:17:38,674 --> 00:17:41,754 l thought that in my lifetime evolution would be accepted 199 00:17:41,789 --> 00:17:44,926 and taught around the world as a scientific fact, 200 00:17:44,961 --> 00:17:48,100 supported by overwhelming evidence. 201 00:17:48,135 --> 00:17:51,345 But unfortunately, the whole point about faith 202 00:17:51,380 --> 00:17:58,520 is that even massive and constantly accumulating physical evidence cuts no ice. 203 00:17:58,555 --> 00:18:02,660 Evolution today is under threat. 204 00:18:05,066 --> 00:18:07,332 ln the Bible Belt of middle America, 205 00:18:07,367 --> 00:18:12,102 evangelical Christians are fighting back against science. 206 00:18:21,216 --> 00:18:24,529 In the new world, religion is free enterprise. 207 00:18:24,564 --> 00:18:27,410 Rival groups set up shop on every street corner, 208 00:18:27,445 --> 00:18:32,634 competing to save people's souls and collect their money. 209 00:18:37,114 --> 00:18:40,680 Fundamentalist Christianity is on the rise among the electorate 210 00:18:40,715 --> 00:18:42,930 of the world's only super power. 211 00:18:42,965 --> 00:18:46,478 Right up to and including the President (Bush). 212 00:18:47,466 --> 00:18:51,274 If you believe the surveys, 45% of Americans, 213 00:18:51,309 --> 00:18:54,639 that's about 135 million people, 214 00:18:54,674 --> 00:18:59,318 believe the universe is less than 10,000 years old. 215 00:19:12,904 --> 00:19:16,402 This is the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. 216 00:19:16,437 --> 00:19:18,464 Where conservative Christians have built 217 00:19:18,499 --> 00:19:21,003 an 18 million dollar worship center 218 00:19:21,038 --> 00:19:25,704 as their new Jerusalem, in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. 219 00:19:27,788 --> 00:19:31,005 Evangelical churches like this have become a powerful lobby, 220 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,571 exerting enormous influence on everything in America 221 00:19:34,606 --> 00:19:39,858 from the teaching of science in schools, to foreign policy. 222 00:19:45,389 --> 00:19:47,730 This place strains belief. 223 00:19:48,573 --> 00:19:52,010 It isn't just a church but a ready-made social network. 224 00:19:53,977 --> 00:19:59,709 The 12,000 strong congregation can also attend 1,300 organized programs 225 00:19:59,744 --> 00:20:02,321 where they can meet to exchange Christian tips 226 00:20:02,356 --> 00:20:05,494 on everything from marriage to dog walking. 227 00:20:11,426 --> 00:20:14,174 It's all terribly exuberant and intense. 228 00:20:14,209 --> 00:20:16,496 Much less tradition here than in Lourdes, 229 00:20:17,578 --> 00:20:20,723 but plenty of swaggering authority. 230 00:20:28,540 --> 00:20:32,113 The pastor is Ted Haggard. A powerful man. 231 00:20:32,148 --> 00:20:35,408 Chairman of the National Association of Evangelicals 232 00:20:35,443 --> 00:20:40,383 and the New Life is Ted's evangelical Vatican. 233 00:20:40,418 --> 00:20:43,211 ''Welcome to all of our friends! 234 00:20:43,246 --> 00:20:45,511 Take a moment and say hello to the people behind you, 235 00:20:45,546 --> 00:20:48,659 in front of you, to your right, to your left.'' 236 00:20:50,012 --> 00:20:53,124 ''Hey we wanna welcome all of you that are visiting here with us today, 237 00:20:53,159 --> 00:20:54,586 if you are here for the very first time,'' 238 00:20:54,621 --> 00:20:57,429 ''we have a packet of information that we wanna give to you ...'' 239 00:21:00,264 --> 00:21:03,468 Sadly, the warmth of the welcome would prove short-lived 240 00:21:03,503 --> 00:21:08,603 when I started talking to Pastor Haggard about the Bible and scientific fact. 241 00:21:10,648 --> 00:21:13,992 You will find yourself wrong on some things, right on some other things. 242 00:21:14,027 --> 00:21:17,507 But please, in the process of it. DonŽt be arogant. 243 00:21:27,542 --> 00:21:30,118 We exalt you here this morning, Lord God. 244 00:21:30,153 --> 00:21:33,729 Everything that's within us wants to give you praise and glory and honor, 245 00:21:33,764 --> 00:21:36,021 'cos we are so grateful for ... 246 00:21:36,056 --> 00:21:38,101 The New Life Church in Colorado Springs 247 00:21:38,136 --> 00:21:41,505 is a bastion of American religious conservatism. 248 00:21:42,140 --> 00:21:45,293 ''Thank you for transforming our lives. Thank you, Lord God, for ...'' 249 00:21:45,328 --> 00:21:50,811 I've come to try to understand why what I see as irrational faith is thriving. 250 00:21:50,846 --> 00:21:53,672 And why it's attacking science. 251 00:21:54,072 --> 00:21:56,566 '' ... and in Jesus' name we pray. And everybody says Amen!'' 252 00:21:56,601 --> 00:21:57,618 ''Amen!'' 253 00:21:57,653 --> 00:22:00,682 ''Welcome to the United States!'' - Thank you very much. 254 00:22:00,717 --> 00:22:05,630 Pastor Ted Haggard has a hotline to God and to George Bush. 255 00:22:05,665 --> 00:22:10,409 A staunch Republican, he claims he has a weekly conference call with the President, 256 00:22:10,444 --> 00:22:14,972 and has also rubbed shoulders with Tony Blair and Ariel Sharon. 257 00:22:15,861 --> 00:22:17,832 Well that was really quite a show you gave us today. 258 00:22:17,867 --> 00:22:19,891 A fair bit of money seems to have been spent here. 259 00:22:19,926 --> 00:22:24,405 Yes. I wanted people to be able to worship and enjoy it, 260 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,850 and be in a setting where the speaker is close to them, 261 00:22:27,885 --> 00:22:31,014 that's why it's in the round, and so they can be up close to me 262 00:22:31,049 --> 00:22:32,150 and so l can look at them. 263 00:22:32,185 --> 00:22:34,281 Well it's certainly very effective, what you do, 264 00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:37,368 I mean, it seemed to me you have all the arts of .. 265 00:22:37,403 --> 00:22:38,813 I mean, I was almost reminded me, 266 00:22:38,848 --> 00:22:41,069 if you'll forgive me, of a sort of Nuremberg rally. I mean ... 267 00:22:41,104 --> 00:22:42,487 such incredibly ... 268 00:22:42,522 --> 00:22:44,741 Doctor Goebbels would have been proud. 269 00:22:44,776 --> 00:22:47,288 Well I don't know anything about the Nuremberg rallies, 270 00:22:47,323 --> 00:22:50,472 but I know lots of Americans think of it as a rock concert. 271 00:23:12,232 --> 00:23:13,803 When I prepare a presentation, 272 00:23:13,838 --> 00:23:17,183 I don't prepare it to get a group of lunatics to come in 273 00:23:17,218 --> 00:23:19,825 and just say ''oh yes Pastor Ted, you're just so wonderful, 274 00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:21,287 I believe everything you say''. 275 00:23:21,322 --> 00:23:22,882 I would be opposed to that. 276 00:23:22,917 --> 00:23:24,513 Here the Bible says '... 277 00:23:24,548 --> 00:23:29,103 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, 278 00:23:29,138 --> 00:23:33,263 this is talking about us, we've been chosen for ... 279 00:23:33,298 --> 00:23:35,038 what's that word there Betty? 280 00:23:35,073 --> 00:23:36,818 ''Obedience.'' - ''Say it out loud.'' 281 00:23:36,853 --> 00:23:39,165 ''Obedience!'' - ''Okay, so we have been chosen ...'' 282 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:44,391 Every person needs, at the center, some sense of meaning about existence. 283 00:23:44,783 --> 00:23:48,317 It is life and death to us. It makes us who we are. 284 00:23:48,352 --> 00:23:51,727 Yet most of us, as we grow up and become responsible adults, 285 00:23:51,762 --> 00:23:55,838 accept that life is complex, that we live in a world of subtle shades, 286 00:23:55,873 --> 00:23:58,060 not sharp black and white. 287 00:23:59,095 --> 00:24:01,504 I worry that these born-agains 288 00:24:01,539 --> 00:24:06,062 are being persuaded to return to childish certainties. 289 00:24:06,097 --> 00:24:08,586 The only truth they need is God, 290 00:24:08,621 --> 00:24:12,252 God as interpreted for them by their pastor. 291 00:24:12,287 --> 00:24:14,662 You've been set free from sin! 292 00:24:14,697 --> 00:24:15,519 Think about that! 293 00:24:15,554 --> 00:24:18,324 Everybody knows that we believe the Bible's the word of God. 294 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,817 And today I talked about love your neighbor as yourself. 295 00:24:22,852 --> 00:24:26,173 Now, I didn't have to produce evidence, 296 00:24:26,208 --> 00:24:28,962 sociological evidence or psychological evidence ... 297 00:24:28,997 --> 00:24:29,684 But you have a book, 298 00:24:29,719 --> 00:24:31,852 How can you say they're asked to think for themselves... 299 00:24:31,887 --> 00:24:33,569 ...and they're told everything in this book is true? 300 00:24:33,604 --> 00:24:35,025 Because they don't have to believe that. 301 00:24:35,060 --> 00:24:37,856 The evidence that I presented you can go and read. 302 00:24:37,891 --> 00:24:38,921 This book, it says one thing, 303 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:40,283 that book says another, that book says another, 304 00:24:40,318 --> 00:24:41,700 that book contradicts the others ... 305 00:24:41,735 --> 00:24:43,503 Well the evidence I can present is we've got a book, 306 00:24:43,538 --> 00:24:46,104 written over 1500 years by 40 different authors, 307 00:24:46,139 --> 00:24:48,973 on one subject, and it doesn't contradict itself. 308 00:24:49,008 --> 00:24:49,660 It doesn't? 309 00:24:49,695 --> 00:24:51,398 Where you cant give me two, 310 00:24:51,433 --> 00:24:56,012 two experts in certain areas that are in the same generation, 311 00:24:56,047 --> 00:24:58,819 in the same area of study, that don't contradict themselves. 312 00:24:58,854 --> 00:24:59,778 That's the beauty of science. 313 00:24:59,813 --> 00:25:03,098 We have lots of evidence, and the evidence is all the time coming in, 314 00:25:03,133 --> 00:25:05,202 constantly changing our minds. 315 00:25:05,237 --> 00:25:08,646 Whereas you have one book which you say it doesn't change ... 316 00:25:08,681 --> 00:25:09,254 Exactly. 317 00:25:09,289 --> 00:25:11,016 That's not getting them to think for themselves! 318 00:25:11,051 --> 00:25:14,206 ... and we've all decided as a group, to go to the holy place. True or false? 319 00:25:14,241 --> 00:25:14,897 (Congregatlon) True! 320 00:25:14,932 --> 00:25:17,603 True! Everybody say TRUE! 321 00:25:17,638 --> 00:25:18,149 ''TRUE!'' 322 00:25:18,184 --> 00:25:20,246 Alright then. That's the vote ... 323 00:25:20,281 --> 00:25:23,499 But my biggest concern is that evangelicals like Haggard 324 00:25:23,534 --> 00:25:26,642 are foisting evident falsehoods on their flock. 325 00:25:26,677 --> 00:25:29,188 ... are so wonderful, and so necessary, that I wanna ... 326 00:25:29,223 --> 00:25:31,851 The evangelicals are denying scientific evidence 327 00:25:31,886 --> 00:25:35,062 just to support Bronze Age myths. 328 00:25:35,097 --> 00:25:39,680 ... alive in our lives. And then of course, we need the power of the Holy Spirit. 329 00:25:39,715 --> 00:25:43,371 We fully embrace the scientific method, as American evangelicals. 330 00:25:43,406 --> 00:25:48,269 And we think, as time goes along, as we discover more and more facts 331 00:25:48,304 --> 00:25:52,466 that we'll learn more and more about how God created the heavens and the Earth. 332 00:25:52,501 --> 00:25:54,057 The scientific method clearly demonstrates 333 00:25:54,092 --> 00:25:57,208 that the world is 4.5 billion years old. I mean, do you accept that? 334 00:25:57,243 --> 00:26:02,402 Yeah, you know what you're doing is you are accepting some of the views 335 00:26:02,437 --> 00:26:06,167 that are accepted in some portions of the scientific community, as fact. 336 00:26:06,202 --> 00:26:10,288 Where in fact, your grandchildren might listen 337 00:26:10,323 --> 00:26:12,375 to the tape of you saying that and laugh at you. 338 00:26:12,410 --> 00:26:13,178 You want a bet? 339 00:26:13,213 --> 00:26:18,115 Sometimes it's hard for human being to study the ear or study the eye, 340 00:26:18,150 --> 00:26:20,453 and think that happened by accident. 341 00:26:20,488 --> 00:26:23,071 I beg you pardon? Did you say by accident? 342 00:26:23,106 --> 00:26:24,906 - Yeah. What do you mean, by accident? 343 00:26:24,941 --> 00:26:26,800 That the eye just formed itself somehow. 344 00:26:26,835 --> 00:26:29,444 - And who says it did? Well, some evolutionists say it did. 345 00:26:29,479 --> 00:26:31,200 Not a single one that l've ever met. 346 00:26:31,235 --> 00:26:32,546 Really? - Really. 347 00:26:32,581 --> 00:26:35,335 You obviously know nothing about the subject of evolution. 348 00:26:35,370 --> 00:26:37,440 Or maybe you haven't met the people I have. 349 00:26:37,475 --> 00:26:42,701 But you see, you do understand, you do understand that this issue right here 350 00:26:42,736 --> 00:26:46,135 of intellectual arrogance is the reason 351 00:26:46,170 --> 00:26:51,000 why people like you have a difficult problem with people of faith. 352 00:26:51,035 --> 00:26:55,788 I don't communicate an air of superiority over the people 353 00:26:55,823 --> 00:26:57,745 because I know so much more, 354 00:26:57,780 --> 00:26:59,696 and if you only read the books I know, 355 00:26:59,731 --> 00:27:01,861 and if you only knew the scientists I knew, 356 00:27:01,896 --> 00:27:04,119 then you would be great like me. 357 00:27:04,154 --> 00:27:08,441 Well, sir, there could be many things that you know well. 358 00:27:08,476 --> 00:27:10,680 There are other things that you don't know well. 359 00:27:10,715 --> 00:27:13,839 As you age, you'll find yourself wrong on some things, 360 00:27:13,874 --> 00:27:15,386 right on some other things. 361 00:27:15,421 --> 00:27:19,357 But please, in the process, of it don't be arrogant. 362 00:27:24,791 --> 00:27:26,693 We just had a rather disconcerting experience. 363 00:27:26,728 --> 00:27:29,781 We were just packing up our stuff ready to go, 364 00:27:29,816 --> 00:27:33,840 when he suddenly drove up in his pick up truck and said, 365 00:27:33,875 --> 00:27:38,826 "Get of my land immediatelly", "IŽll have you thrown in jail" and "IŽll have seize your film". 366 00:27:38,861 --> 00:27:40,620 And he then says a very curious thing, he said, 367 00:27:40,655 --> 00:27:42,910 "You called my children animals." 368 00:27:42,945 --> 00:27:45,912 Afterwards we worked out, that what he must have meant, 369 00:27:45,947 --> 00:27:48,020 was that I talked about evolution. 370 00:27:48,055 --> 00:27:51,209 He thought that I was saying, that his flock were animals. 371 00:27:51,244 --> 00:27:54,172 Which of course in some sense I was, because all humans are all animals. 372 00:28:14,246 --> 00:28:15,461 Haggard's approach is to say 373 00:28:15,496 --> 00:28:18,528 let's teach evolution as just another theory 374 00:28:18,563 --> 00:28:21,140 alongside the Bible's creation story. 375 00:28:21,175 --> 00:28:26,336 Or so-called Intelligent Design, which claims God helped evolution along. 376 00:28:26,371 --> 00:28:29,208 It sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? 377 00:28:34,170 --> 00:28:36,257 But of course it's nothing of the sort. 378 00:28:36,292 --> 00:28:38,264 These are not equal theories. 379 00:28:38,299 --> 00:28:43,382 Evolution by natural selection is supported by mountains of evidence. 380 00:28:45,769 --> 00:28:49,494 and is only backed by some ancient scribblings. 381 00:28:52,758 --> 00:28:55,070 With Haggard and his followers on their doorstep, 382 00:28:55,105 --> 00:28:58,440 the rational atheist minority here feel so browbeaten, 383 00:28:58,475 --> 00:29:02,137 that they've organized themselves into what they call ''a freethinkers group'', 384 00:29:02,172 --> 00:29:07,649 which meets furtively, perhaps to fantasise about moving to Canada! 385 00:29:07,684 --> 00:29:09,316 How nice to meet you! 386 00:29:09,351 --> 00:29:12,489 Hey Richard! lt's wonderful! Welcome, welcome, it's so good ... 387 00:29:12,524 --> 00:29:15,355 Do freethinkers in America feel pretty beleaguered at the moment? 388 00:29:15,390 --> 00:29:21,001 I've had my fair share of vitriolic letters and messages from parents 389 00:29:21,036 --> 00:29:25,109 saying that I'm Satan's incarnate for teaching evolution, 390 00:29:25,144 --> 00:29:28,224 and there are ministries here in Colorado Springs that indoctrinate 391 00:29:28,259 --> 00:29:32,558 students in summer programs to challenge biologists, 392 00:29:32,593 --> 00:29:35,805 biology teachers, in the classroom. And I've ... 393 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,989 So it's an organised campaign to challenge biology teachers? 394 00:29:38,024 --> 00:29:40,735 Oh they're organised campaigns, absolutely. I do not tolerate it, because I ... 395 00:29:40,770 --> 00:29:42,843 But they have this mindset that they are right. 396 00:29:42,878 --> 00:29:45,776 If a person comes out in this country as an atheist, 397 00:29:45,811 --> 00:29:48,084 they're likely to suffer career damage, 398 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:50,679 they might lose a job, they might not get a job, 399 00:29:50,714 --> 00:29:53,209 they might lose an opportunity for an apartment. 400 00:29:53,244 --> 00:29:55,387 Waking up, as most Americans do, 401 00:29:55,422 --> 00:29:58,915 very late on this, coming to a realisation, 402 00:29:58,950 --> 00:30:02,865 as we did during the McCarthy era, and even during ... 403 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:04,252 It's very similar to the McCarthy era ... 404 00:30:04,287 --> 00:30:09,978 Yes, it is. We do begin now to see the dangers of this extremism. 405 00:30:10,013 --> 00:30:11,513 Christian fascism isn't it? 406 00:30:11,548 --> 00:30:15,488 Yeah. And whatever mantle you want to give it, which I've heard lately 407 00:30:15,523 --> 00:30:20,094 is ''domination theology'', ''dominion Christianity'' ... 408 00:30:20,129 --> 00:30:32,798 (Christian radio advertisements) 409 00:30:32,833 --> 00:30:36,976 Fundamentalist American Christianity is attacking science. 410 00:30:37,011 --> 00:30:39,141 But what is it offering instead? 411 00:30:39,176 --> 00:30:44,636 A mirror-image of islamic extremism, an American Taliban. 412 00:30:50,195 --> 00:30:53,299 We live in a time of lethal polarisation. 413 00:30:53,334 --> 00:30:56,620 When the great religions are pushing their conflict to a point where 414 00:30:56,655 --> 00:30:59,967 it is difficult to see how they can ever been reconciled. 415 00:31:00,002 --> 00:31:04,748 In New York, Madrid and London we've witnessed the religious insanities 416 00:31:04,783 --> 00:31:08,493 of the Middle East penetrate the heart of the secular west. 417 00:31:08,528 --> 00:31:13,739 (George W Bush voiceover) 418 00:31:13,774 --> 00:31:17,102 To understand the likes of Osama Bin Laden, you have to realise 419 00:31:17,137 --> 00:31:19,916 that the religious terrorism they inspire 420 00:31:19,951 --> 00:31:23,478 is the logical outcome of deeply-held faith. 421 00:31:23,513 --> 00:31:25,523 Even so-called moderate believers 422 00:31:25,558 --> 00:31:27,969 are part of the same religious fabric. 423 00:31:28,004 --> 00:31:32,276 They encourage unreason as a positive virtue. 424 00:31:35,136 --> 00:31:37,955 What's really scary is that religious warriors think 425 00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:40,775 of what they are doing as the ultimate good. 426 00:31:40,810 --> 00:31:44,336 Those of us brought up in Christianity can soon get the message: 427 00:31:44,371 --> 00:31:47,059 'Onward Christian soldiers', 'fight the good fight', 428 00:31:47,094 --> 00:31:51,073 'stand up! stand up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross!' 429 00:31:51,108 --> 00:31:52,726 But as far as I'm concerned, 430 00:31:52,761 --> 00:31:55,189 the war between good and evil, 431 00:31:55,224 --> 00:31:58,921 is really just the war between two evils. 432 00:32:03,650 --> 00:32:05,355 This is the holy land, 433 00:32:05,390 --> 00:32:10,327 where the terrible certainties of faith began and still rage. 434 00:32:11,922 --> 00:32:15,857 I've come here because it's a microcosm of the religious conflicts 435 00:32:15,892 --> 00:32:20,406 which threaten rational values and civilisation. 436 00:32:22,951 --> 00:32:27,106 The dreadful combination of politics and extreme faith has caused the 437 00:32:27,141 --> 00:32:30,566 death of almost 4000 people here, in shootings, 438 00:32:30,601 --> 00:32:35,165 suicide bombings and reprisals in the last five years. 439 00:32:48,296 --> 00:32:49,850 Despite the troubles, 440 00:32:49,885 --> 00:32:52,133 tourists still flock to Jerusalem, 441 00:32:52,168 --> 00:32:57,156 to places that their particular brand of religion taught them to revere as a child. 442 00:32:57,191 --> 00:33:00,243 The Via Dolorosa, where Jesus was allegedly whipped 443 00:33:00,278 --> 00:33:03,203 and beaten during the last hours of his life. 444 00:33:04,359 --> 00:33:06,535 Or the Muslim Dome of the Rock. 445 00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:15,856 Or the Western Wall, Judaism's, and the world's, most holy ruin. 446 00:33:36,459 --> 00:33:39,307 On the surface, it looks like a place of harmless myth. 447 00:33:39,342 --> 00:33:41,832 Because here is the hill of Calvary, 448 00:33:41,867 --> 00:33:44,952 where Jesus was crucified, and the tomb of Jesus. 449 00:33:44,987 --> 00:33:47,704 And here, what we are facing, 450 00:33:47,739 --> 00:33:50,502 to the stone of anointment, where the body of 451 00:33:50,537 --> 00:33:53,327 Jesus was taken down from the cross, 452 00:33:53,362 --> 00:33:57,292 so this is the slab where Christ's body was anointed with oil. 453 00:33:57,327 --> 00:34:00,687 How do we know that? Is there any evidence that it was here? 454 00:34:00,722 --> 00:34:03,458 You see, this is by telling from person to person. 455 00:34:03,493 --> 00:34:04,470 It's tradition. 456 00:34:04,505 --> 00:34:06,667 Traditional, from generation to the next. 457 00:34:06,702 --> 00:34:12,050 We can see the hole where the cross was stood, 458 00:34:12,085 --> 00:34:14,761 Where they put(ing) the cross inside the hole, 459 00:34:14,796 --> 00:34:18,641 and this is the place where, the place of the crucifixion, 460 00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:20,953 where Jesus died on the cross. 461 00:34:20,988 --> 00:34:23,139 You don't really believe that, do you? 462 00:34:23,174 --> 00:34:25,331 Ah, this is the Christians, as I explained to you that they believe, 463 00:34:25,366 --> 00:34:27,987 this is the place where the crucifixion took place. 464 00:34:28,022 --> 00:34:31,609 lf we come in closer to my side please, thank you. 465 00:34:31,644 --> 00:34:36,955 [The] guard of the tomb is a Greek priest. Guarding of tomb of Jesus. 466 00:34:36,990 --> 00:34:41,060 This is left from big part of the stone which closed the tomb, 467 00:34:41,095 --> 00:34:44,603 What we call the rolling of angels. 468 00:34:46,356 --> 00:34:49,259 Watch your head please, thank you very much. 469 00:34:51,573 --> 00:34:54,277 This is where he stayed, and rose from death, 470 00:34:54,312 --> 00:34:57,573 we call it Sepulchre, is empty tomb. 471 00:34:59,202 --> 00:35:01,491 God bless you, you can touch[ing] the tomb, 472 00:35:01,526 --> 00:35:03,387 you can make your prayer. 473 00:35:04,679 --> 00:35:08,109 I get four days off! You come here tomorrow... 474 00:35:10,196 --> 00:35:14,853 This holy city has to be one of the least enlightened places in the world. 475 00:35:14,888 --> 00:35:19,993 And it is also a place of barely suppressed religious hatreds. 476 00:35:20,028 --> 00:35:22,222 There will come the day and that day is now. 477 00:35:22,257 --> 00:35:24,917 When you are on our lands, spreading these ideas, 478 00:35:24,952 --> 00:35:27,872 that the soldiers of Allah will not put up with this. 479 00:35:42,544 --> 00:35:45,509 We live at a time when religious belief is fighting back 480 00:35:45,544 --> 00:35:48,526 against reason and scientific truth. 481 00:35:48,561 --> 00:35:50,598 This is a problem for all of us, 482 00:35:50,633 --> 00:35:54,449 because religion's irrational roots nourish intolerance 483 00:35:54,484 --> 00:35:57,264 to the point of murder. 484 00:35:58,155 --> 00:35:59,808 I'm in Jerusalem's old city, 485 00:35:59,843 --> 00:36:05,501 trying to understand the role deeply-held faith plays in the bitter conflict here. 486 00:36:08,141 --> 00:36:11,417 One of the first things you notice is the edgy watchfulness, 487 00:36:11,452 --> 00:36:15,174 the different ethnic and religious communities live cheek-by-jowl, 488 00:36:15,209 --> 00:36:18,506 but there are security checkpoints throughout the old city, 489 00:36:18,541 --> 00:36:22,653 and one section above all is under heavy guard. 490 00:36:24,196 --> 00:36:27,624 For the Muslims, the compound enclosing the Dome of the Rock and 491 00:36:27,659 --> 00:36:34,172 Al-Aqsa mosque is, after Mecca and Medina, the third holiest site in lslam. 492 00:36:34,207 --> 00:36:35,760 It was from here, they believe, 493 00:36:35,795 --> 00:36:38,726 that the prophet Mohammad flew up to heaven. 494 00:36:42,496 --> 00:36:44,943 As bad luck would have it, the Jews believe the same place 495 00:36:44,978 --> 00:36:48,829 is the site of the long-destroyed first and second temples, 496 00:36:48,864 --> 00:36:51,413 the holiest shrine in Judaism. 497 00:37:08,047 --> 00:37:11,446 Jews are not allowed to worship inside the compound, 498 00:37:11,481 --> 00:37:15,828 their prayers are restricted to the ruined western, or wailing, wall. 499 00:37:15,863 --> 00:37:19,508 ''When Jesus came here to overturn the tables, 500 00:37:19,543 --> 00:37:21,394 there was no mosque in view.'' 501 00:37:21,429 --> 00:37:23,735 ''When the Arabs conquered this part of the world, 502 00:37:23,770 --> 00:37:26,982 they established the Al-Aqsa mosque.'' 503 00:37:27,017 --> 00:37:32,954 And then they put over where we think is the main temple compound, 504 00:37:32,989 --> 00:37:35,696 where the altar was, where the holy of holy was, 505 00:37:35,731 --> 00:37:38,218 they put another building called the Dome of the Rock, 506 00:37:38,253 --> 00:37:44,075 it was not properly a mosque, and we at the present moment are 507 00:37:44,110 --> 00:37:50,354 simply not allowed in there, inside the compound, identifiably as Jews. 508 00:37:52,123 --> 00:37:54,664 The Muslims reject these Jewish claims. 509 00:37:55,755 --> 00:38:00,259 And when Ariel Sharon entered the Temple Mount area in the Year 2000: 510 00:38:00,294 --> 00:38:04,049 ''I came here with a message of peace.'' 511 00:38:04,084 --> 00:38:08,537 His visit sparked the second, or Al-Aqsa Intifada, 512 00:38:08,572 --> 00:38:13,710 a Palestinian uprising that has cost 4000 lives so far. 513 00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:30,286 And if the Jews sincerely want peace with the Arabs and Muslims, 514 00:38:30,321 --> 00:38:35,067 then they should stand away, keep away from the Al-Aqsa mosque. 515 00:38:35,102 --> 00:38:41,218 ''In the Muslim religion, there is no possibility anyway of sharing the territory.'' 516 00:38:41,253 --> 00:38:45,678 If l come in there, in some far corner, far away from a mosque, 517 00:38:45,713 --> 00:38:49,881 in an open area, under a tree somewhere, if a Muslim will catch me 518 00:38:49,916 --> 00:38:52,121 murmuring psalms or some other prayer, 519 00:38:52,156 --> 00:38:56,710 he will call the police to have me 'egressed', shall I say. 520 00:38:56,745 --> 00:38:59,480 As far as the Al-Aqsa mosque is considered, 521 00:38:59,515 --> 00:39:03,730 there are no negotiations, absolutely no negotiations about it. 522 00:39:10,051 --> 00:39:18,004 Because no Muslim has the right, worldwide, to negotiate over the Al-Aqsa mosque. 523 00:39:26,205 --> 00:39:30,405 Again and again my conversations come back to the solid walls 524 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,122 that religion puts up. Back to implacable faiths. 525 00:39:34,157 --> 00:39:38,278 ''My holy book is true" , " I am right" ," He is wrong''. 526 00:39:39,141 --> 00:39:42,370 So I went to meet someone who, in my naivete, 527 00:39:42,405 --> 00:39:46,341 I thought might be able to see both sides of the story. 528 00:39:46,376 --> 00:39:50,882 Yusuf Al-Khattab used to be called Joseph Coen, 529 00:39:50,917 --> 00:39:54,325 born and brought up as a secular Jew in New York. 530 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,488 In 1998 he moved to Gaza as a Jewish settler, 531 00:39:58,523 --> 00:40:04,077 but there he discovered a different God, Allah. 532 00:40:11,125 --> 00:40:14,610 What I notice coming to this centre of world religions, 533 00:40:14,645 --> 00:40:18,065 is what a lot hatred religion fosters. 534 00:40:18,100 --> 00:40:23,145 I mean, I'm an atheist, and I am rather gentle, I don't hate people. 535 00:40:23,180 --> 00:40:25,759 But it seems to me that I'm hearing hate on all sides, 536 00:40:25,794 --> 00:40:27,773 and it seems to me is all to do with religion. 537 00:40:27,808 --> 00:40:29,940 I hate atheists because atheists don't care 538 00:40:29,975 --> 00:40:32,054 if somebody fornicates in the middle of the street, 539 00:40:32,089 --> 00:40:35,841 they don't care if their women go bouncing around on TV topless, 540 00:40:35,876 --> 00:40:37,641 it makes no difference, they don't believe in anything. 541 00:40:37,676 --> 00:40:39,405 If you don't believe in a set rule, 542 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,753 and you believe that a constitution can change, 543 00:40:41,788 --> 00:40:43,935 and you can amend the rules as they go along, 544 00:40:43,970 --> 00:40:45,394 and if you don't believe in God's rule, 545 00:40:45,429 --> 00:40:48,730 then what law do you have? You just have man-made laws. 546 00:40:48,765 --> 00:40:50,777 I realized I was in the company of someone 547 00:40:50,812 --> 00:40:54,228 who has willingly bought into fundamentalist dogma. 548 00:40:54,263 --> 00:40:59,403 What do you think about the September 11 attacks on New York, 549 00:40:59,438 --> 00:41:02,949 and the July 7 attacks in London? 550 00:41:02,984 --> 00:41:06,201 Okay, since you like to speak about evolution, I'd like to start before 551 00:41:06,236 --> 00:41:08,134 - what do you think about the Jews that have 552 00:41:08,169 --> 00:41:12,125 destroyed over 417 Arab villages, including all mosques and majids, 553 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,107 which wouldn't affect you, 'cause you're an atheist. 554 00:41:14,142 --> 00:41:17,206 So what are are you saying? That we should sit back... 555 00:41:17,241 --> 00:41:18,395 Not at all. 556 00:41:18,430 --> 00:41:19,662 ...and say 'oh, you know what? Let us progress and 557 00:41:20,912 --> 00:41:21,857 let us sit down and drink tea, and talk about what to do. 558 00:41:21,892 --> 00:41:23,844 I think that's the most ridiculous thing. 559 00:41:23,879 --> 00:41:27,927 All I could say is if there was noquote-unquote "state of Israel", 560 00:41:27,962 --> 00:41:29,912 there would have been no September 11 . 561 00:41:29,947 --> 00:41:31,844 But if we've all got to live together, 562 00:41:31,879 --> 00:41:36,341 it's not going to be helped if there are people of very, very strong faith 563 00:41:36,376 --> 00:41:38,287 who simply ''know'' they're right, 564 00:41:38,322 --> 00:41:40,689 and are not amenable to argument because ... 565 00:41:40,724 --> 00:41:44,412 There's somebody out there who's just as faithful as you, 566 00:41:44,447 --> 00:41:48,254 and has his faith just as strong as yours, which is opposite to yours. 567 00:41:48,289 --> 00:41:50,710 You see the problem is, Richard, I think that you have fear. 568 00:41:50,745 --> 00:41:54,832 You know that this party of occupying Muslim lands, 569 00:41:54,867 --> 00:41:58,387 and polluting society with these evil ideas that are around, 570 00:41:58,422 --> 00:42:01,666 it's not gonna last forever. There will always be the soldiers of Allah 571 00:42:01,701 --> 00:42:05,210 there to give the response to this. 572 00:42:05,245 --> 00:42:06,882 So we also want the same thing. 573 00:42:06,917 --> 00:42:11,363 All we want is ... we want the non-Muslims at this point 574 00:42:11,398 --> 00:42:12,927 off the lands of Mohammad, 575 00:42:12,962 --> 00:42:14,312 sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam. 576 00:42:14,347 --> 00:42:17,096 All the lands of Mohammad, We want the kaffir out of it. 577 00:42:17,131 --> 00:42:19,281 Dawkins: Do you want Islam to take over rest of the world? 578 00:42:19,316 --> 00:42:21,219 - Of course I want it to, and it will. 579 00:42:21,254 --> 00:42:24,032 So my advice is to clean up your show at home, 580 00:42:24,067 --> 00:42:27,794 take your forces off our lands, correct yourselves, 581 00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:31,150 fix your society, alright? Fix your women ... 582 00:42:31,185 --> 00:42:33,094 Fix your women? That's not my business, 583 00:42:33,129 --> 00:42:35,312 that my women's business. They're not my women... 584 00:42:35,347 --> 00:42:37,059 No, it is your business. It is your business. 585 00:42:37,094 --> 00:42:39,745 When you take the women and dress them like whores on the street ... 586 00:42:39,780 --> 00:42:41,788 I don't dress women, they dress themselves! 587 00:42:41,823 --> 00:42:45,811 But you allow it as a norm, to let the women go on the street dressed like this. 588 00:42:45,846 --> 00:42:48,098 What's goin' on with your society? 589 00:42:48,133 --> 00:42:51,707 But I'm interested in religion and the effect that it has on peoples' minds, 590 00:42:51,742 --> 00:42:52,964 and I'm worried about it. 591 00:42:52,999 --> 00:42:54,868 And we're very worried about you. 592 00:42:54,903 --> 00:42:56,275 I mean, what's goin' on with the stealing? 593 00:42:56,310 --> 00:42:58,352 With the theft? It's out of control... 594 00:43:01,216 --> 00:43:04,101 Clearly, historic injustice towards the Palestinians 595 00:43:04,136 --> 00:43:06,515 breeds hatred and anger. 596 00:43:08,053 --> 00:43:11,586 But we must face up to the fact that in creating the death cults of 597 00:43:11,621 --> 00:43:13,835 suicide bombers, it's unshakable, 598 00:43:13,870 --> 00:43:19,212 unreasonable conviction in your own righteous faith that is the key. 599 00:43:19,247 --> 00:43:22,028 If preachers then tell the faithful 600 00:43:22,063 --> 00:43:24,941 that Paradise after martyrdom is better 601 00:43:24,976 --> 00:43:28,487 than existence here in the real world, it's hardly surprising that some 602 00:43:28,522 --> 00:43:31,357 crazed followers will actually swallow it, 603 00:43:31,392 --> 00:43:37,274 leading to a terrible cycle of vendetta, war and suffering. 604 00:43:50,644 --> 00:43:52,273 I'm here on the Mount of Olives, 605 00:43:52,308 --> 00:43:56,662 looking out over this beautiful old city. 606 00:43:56,697 --> 00:43:59,650 We've heard some pretty extreme statements, 607 00:43:59,685 --> 00:44:02,214 some hatred, some bigotry, 608 00:44:02,249 --> 00:44:04,811 such as I haven't really heard before. 609 00:44:05,834 --> 00:44:09,196 I don't see what future the world has, 610 00:44:09,231 --> 00:44:11,478 as long as people think like that, 611 00:44:11,513 --> 00:44:14,680 and people are going to go on thinking like that, as long as they're 612 00:44:14,715 --> 00:44:19,222 brought up from childhood, from the cradle, 613 00:44:19,257 --> 00:44:22,950 to think that there's something good about faith. 614 00:44:22,985 --> 00:44:24,774 To think that there's something good 615 00:44:24,809 --> 00:44:28,762 about believing because you've been told to believe, 616 00:44:28,797 --> 00:44:32,875 rather than believing because you've looked at the evidence. 617 00:44:36,459 --> 00:44:41,615 I want to say that killing for God is not only hideous murder, 618 00:44:41,650 --> 00:44:44,188 it is also utterly ridiculous. 619 00:44:47,305 --> 00:44:51,481 Unlike religion, science doesn't pretend to know everything. 620 00:44:51,516 --> 00:44:54,999 There are still deep questions about the origins of the universe 621 00:44:55,034 --> 00:44:57,812 that have yet to be explained. 622 00:44:59,274 --> 00:45:02,135 But just because science can't answer them right now, 623 00:45:02,170 --> 00:45:09,401 doesn't mean faith, tradition, revelation or an ancient holy text, can. 624 00:45:10,543 --> 00:45:13,553 Science can't disprove the existence of God, 625 00:45:13,588 --> 00:45:15,846 but that does not mean that God exists. 626 00:45:15,881 --> 00:45:19,878 There are a million things we can't disprove! 627 00:45:22,176 --> 00:45:25,568 The philosopher Bertrand Russell had an analogy: 628 00:45:25,603 --> 00:45:30,379 Imagine there's a china tea pot, in orbit around the Sun. 629 00:45:30,414 --> 00:45:34,662 You cannot disprove the existence of the tea pot, because it's too small 630 00:45:34,697 --> 00:45:37,283 to be spotted by our telescopes. 631 00:45:38,045 --> 00:45:40,049 Nobody but a lunatic would say 'well, 632 00:45:40,084 --> 00:45:44,110 I'm prepared to believe in the tea pot because I can't disprove it'. 633 00:45:44,145 --> 00:45:47,535 Maybe we have to be technically and strictly agnostic, 634 00:45:47,570 --> 00:45:51,912 but in practice we are all tea pot atheists. 635 00:45:53,743 --> 00:45:57,103 But now, suppose that everybody in the society, the teachers, 636 00:45:57,138 --> 00:46:01,703 the tribal elders, all had faith in the tea pot. 637 00:46:01,738 --> 00:46:05,014 Stories of the tea pot had been handed down for generations, 638 00:46:05,049 --> 00:46:07,048 it's part of the tradition of the society, 639 00:46:07,083 --> 00:46:09,432 there are holy books about the tea pot. 640 00:46:09,467 --> 00:46:13,731 Then, somebody who said they did not believe in the tea pot, might be 641 00:46:13,766 --> 00:46:18,211 regarded as eccentric or even mad. 642 00:46:19,684 --> 00:46:25,117 There's an infinite number of things like celestial tea pots that we can't disprove. 643 00:46:25,152 --> 00:46:30,219 There are fairies, there are unicorns, hobgoblins. 644 00:46:30,254 --> 00:46:32,364 We can't disprove any of those. 645 00:46:32,399 --> 00:46:34,920 But we don't believe in them anymore than nowadays we believe 646 00:46:34,955 --> 00:46:42,268 in Thor, Amen-Rah, or Aphrodite. 647 00:46:42,303 --> 00:46:48,630 We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. 648 00:46:48,665 --> 00:46:52,526 Some of us just go one god further. 649 00:47:03,380 --> 00:47:08,720 In the next program, how faith acts like a virus that strikes the young, 650 00:47:08,755 --> 00:47:12,570 and how the good book, which people follow for moral instruction, 651 00:47:12,605 --> 00:47:14,118 actually reveals a god 652 00:47:14,153 --> 00:47:19,141 who is surely the most vindictive character in all fiction.