叛徒？
Tonight, Edward Snowden's first interview on American television.
今晚，斯諾登首次公開亮相。
Former NSA director has said you have done
前任國安局局長基斯說：
significant and irreversible damage to the nation.
「你對美國造成了嚴重的，而且無法復原的傷害。」
The man who stall NSA secrets talks about what drove him to do it.
斯諾登將講述他洩密的來龍去脈。
Sometimes to do the right thing you have to break a rule.
有時，你必須打破常規，才能有所作為。
And how he ended up in exile in Russia.
還有他流亡俄羅斯的經歷。
People are going to find it hard to believe that President
人們很難相信，
Putin hasn't taken a run at you or what you know.
普京不會利用你。
Tonight, the man who insists he is a trained spy.
今晚，職業間諜斯諾登……
I'm not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker.
「我不會緊急出動戰機攔截一名29歲的黑客。」
And is wanted for espionage while insisting he's a patriot.
他再三強調，他非常愛國。
You hear often in the United States why doesn't he come home
有些人問：
and face the music?
你為什麼不自己回來接受審判呢？
From NBC News, "Inside the Mind of Edward Snowden."
《斯諾登專訪》
Good evening. I'm Brian Williams.
晚上好！我是布萊恩。
He is routinely called the most wanted man in the world.
他是當今世界的風雲人物。
Last week in Moscow, cloaked in secrecy and after months of
經過數月準備，
behind-the-scenes back and forth,
上星期，
we sat down with Edward Snowden
在莫斯科，
for his first American television interview.
美國電視台首次對斯諾登進行了專訪。
Let's begin with a reminder of what this 30-year-old has done
首先讓我介紹一下斯諾登。
and why he's living in exile overseas, wanted for espionage in this country.
他是美國間諜，現在流亡俄羅斯。
The classified documents he stole, downloaded from the NSA
他從國安局竊取了機密文件，
and handed over to journalists blew the lid off data mining programs
揭露了美國的「棱鏡計劃」。
that had been launched in the wake of and in the name of 9/11.
They have names like Prism and Boundless Informant and XkeyScore.
該項目始於911之後的「反恐」行動。
Some of them designed to vacuum up phone and internet data are
通過棱鏡，國安局能夠直接進入許多公司的服務器。
from companies like Verizon and Google and Apple and Yahoo!
例如：威瑞森、谷歌、蘋果、雅虎。
And some of them if directed, could zero in on any one of us.
如果有必要，國安局可以對任何人實施監控。
Snowden came to this interview clearly armed with talking points,
斯諾登在專訪中表明了他的觀點。
ready to tell his story.
他講述了事情的來龍去脈。
He knew he would be receiving no compensation and no question was off limits.
斯諾登將面臨重重質問。
Already just today based on pre-released snippets of what
前國務卿克裏稱斯諾登為「叛徒」，
you're about to see Secretary of State John Kerry launched
a full-on frontal assault on Snowden calling him a traitor,
challenging hill to come home to face justice.
並要求他主動回國接受審判。
And in just a moment, we'll hear what Edward Snowden has to say about that.
對此，斯諾登有什麼回應呢？
He arrived alone carrying only a backpack into our Moscow hotel.
斯諾登背著包來到莫斯科的一間酒店。
He avoided the lobby, came up a back stairway into the elevator.
他沒有進大堂，直接上了電梯。
And the moment he sat down and our camera focused in on him,
當他坐下，助手調好燈光，我們才意識到：
it became clear that this was the first good long look at him the world had had.
這是第一次，全國電視觀眾看清了他的模樣。
We saw him framed against that hotel window in Hong Kong
斯諾登曾在香港露過臉，
and appearing on closed circuit video from undisclosed locations.
他還在閉路電視中授受過採訪。
But he was here now, introducing himself as Ed.
今天，斯諾登就坐在我們面前。
A lot of people say you have badly damaged your country.
很多人都說，你傷害了自己的國家。
I'd say: Can you show that? Is there any demonstration?
我的回答是：「你有證據嗎？」
Because I have been asking the United States
美國政府也無法給出答案。
the press has been asking the United States government for a year now.
因為在過去的一年，他們沒有找到任何一個人，
If after a year they can't show a single individual who has been
是我曝光行為的受害人。
harmed in any way by this reporting, is it really so grave?
我造成的後果真的很嚴重嗎？
Is it really so serious?
我不相信。
Can we really trust those claims without scrutinizing them?
現在就要給我帶帽子？
I would argue we can't.
為時尚早。
But we should be open to it.
現在，我們可以公開討論這件事。
It's fair, the possibility.
如果真的有受害人，請告訴我。
If this has caused serious harm, I personally would like to know about it.
傷害有多大，只有國安局自己知道。
Former NSA director Keith Alexander has said:
前任國安局局長基斯說：
You have done, quote, significant and irreversible damage to the nation.
「你對美國造成了嚴重的，而且無法復原的傷害。」
He said there is, quote, concrete proof that terrorist
他還說：「有證詞表明，恐怖份子已經開始行動。」
groups and others are taking action and making changes and
「你曝光的資料，幫了他們的忙，」
it's going to make our job tougher.
「從而使我們的安保工作難上加難。」
And this amounts to telling our enemy our playbook.
「你的行為就是賣國。」
So what's interesting is that we see the exact same language,
基斯局長說的話，我們經常聽到。
the exact same accusations being leveled against whistle blowers,
在一些「間諜」事件中，
being labeled against any critic of any government program
在一些「上訪」事件中，
throughout history, throughout time.
基斯的前任，基斯的前任的前任，都說過一樣的話。
What are you doing in Russia?
你現在是不是為俄羅斯工作？
All right. So this is a really fair concern.
沒有，你們不必擔心這個。
I personally am surprised that I ended up here.
我自己也沒想到會去俄羅斯。
The reality is I never intended to end up in Russia.
事實上，我從來沒有計劃去俄羅斯。
I had a flight to Cuba onwards to Latin America.
我本來想先去古巴，然後在拉丁美洲安家。
And I was stopped because the United States government
計劃趕不上變化，我的護照被美國政府註銷了。
decided to revoked my passport to trap me in the Moscow airport.
所以，我被困在了俄羅斯的機場。
So when people ask: Why are you in Russia?,
我為什麼去了俄羅斯?
I say please ask the State Department.
要問美國政府。
The U.S. State department says Snowden's passport was
美國政府聲稱：
pulled before he boarded that flight to Moscow
斯諾登的護照在他去俄羅斯之前就被註銷了。
and yet he was somehow still able to leave Hong Kong,
他離開美國先去了香港，
a city he had chosen to fly to initially upon leaving the U.S.
然後去了俄羅斯。
A formerly high ranking American official said to me:
美國一位高官對我說：
If Snowden's equivalent Russian kid was in our hands in the United States,
如果俄羅斯也有像斯諾登一樣的人來到美國。
we would be working mightily to, A, befriend him
我們肯定會跟他搞好關係。
and, absent that, infiltrate what he has, what he knows.
我們肯定會想盡辦法從他身上得到有用的情報。
What has your relationship been to the host nation?
你跟俄羅斯的關繫好嗎？
Have you met Putin?
你見過普京嗎？
Have you spoken with Putin?
你們有過交談嗎？
Right, so I have no relationship with the Russian government at all.
我跟俄羅斯沒有任何關係。
I have never met the Russian President.
我沒見過俄羅斯總統。
I'm not supported by the Russian government.
我沒有得過他們的幫助，
I'm not taking money from the Russian government.
更沒收過他們的錢。
I'm not a spy. Which is the real question.
因為我不是俄羅斯間諜。
The best way to make sure that, for example, the Russians can't
防止洩密的最好方法，
break my fingers and compromise information or hit me with a bag
就是銷毀洩密者掌握的全部信息。
of money until I give them something was not to have it at all.
我估計，
And the way to do that was by destroying material that I was holding
美國政府在我去俄羅斯之前，
before I transited through Russia.
就已經把屁股擦乾淨了。
People are going to find it hard to believe that President Putin
人們很難相信，
hasn't taken a run at you or what you know.
普京不會利用你。
You can state declaratively that that hasn't happened?
你能說，普京從來沒有對你示好嗎？
Yeah. I mean, the way --
關於這個問題……
the way to think about this is, again,
你知道，
I already know how to deal with counterintelligence.
我是美國間諜。
Beyond that, I took nothing to Russia, so I could give them nothing.
我沒有從俄羅斯得到過好處，也就不會為他們服務。
You say you're not carrying around any of the materials.
你說你沒有攜帶機密文件出國。
You are handing them off.
你把文件銷毀了。
If I gave you a laptop,
如果現在給你一台電腦，
could you access the documents?
你能下載機密文件嗎？
No, no.
我做不到。
No, you couldn't remotely, electronically access material?
你真的做不到？
No.
沒辦法做到。
It's gone from your control?
你在俄羅斯搞不到美國的機密文件？
Right. I don't have any control
搞不定。
-- let's put it this way.
這樣說吧。
If I’m traveling through Russia -- and I know I’m traveling through Russia
如果我帶了機密文件去俄羅斯，
and they have a very aggressive, very professional service.
就好比羊入虎口。
And I look like Tweety Bird to Sylvester the Cat,
我在俄羅斯會有好日子過嗎？
if I look like a little walking chicken lag with all the documents
今天，
if I have control over that, that's a very dangerous thing for me.
我還能瀟灑地坐在這裏？
We'll take our first break here,
不要走開，廣告之後馬上回來。
And up next when we continue, the impact of 9/11 on Edward Snowden.
斯諾登眼中的911。
In 2004 I joined the U.S. Army.
我2004年參軍，
I was injured very early on in the program and washed out.
後來受傷就退伍了。
Going back almost a year to when this story first broke,
歡迎回來！
Edward Snowden was defined early non, and not altogether accurately.
斯諾登是個充滿爭議的人物。
The President famously called him a hacker.
美國總統稱他為「黑客」。
We in the News media passed along and repeated terms like
我們新聞界人云亦云，
systems analyst and outside contractor that didn't really
稱他為「政府編制外的系統分析員」。
mean all that much and according to Snowden
但是，我們從來不知道，
didn't really describe what he did for a living.
斯諾登究竟是幹什麼的？
How do you define yourself?
你的身份究竟是什麼？
Are you -- were you trained as a spy?
職業間諜？
Specifically I’m talking about this --
據說，
the title Systems Analyst, Contractor.
你只是政府下屬工程公司的職工。
It seems to me spies probably look a lot more like Ed Snowden
我感覺，
and a lot less like James Bond these days.
你就是真正的間諜，007只是公子哥。
Well, it's no secret that the U.S. tends to get more
大家都知道，美國政府獲取情報，
and better intelligence out of computers nowadays than they do out of people.
主要靠信息技術，而不是人。
I was trained as a spy in sort of the traditional sense of the word.
我當年接受的是傳統的情報人員訓練。
In that I lived and worked undercover, overseas pretending to work
我曾經拿著假護照，
in a job that I’m not and even being assigned a name that was not mine.
在國外工作，收集情報。
Now the government might deny these things, they might frame it
美國政府可能會否認這一切。
in certain ways and say, oh, he's a low level analyst,
他們會說，斯諾登只是個普通的「系統分析員」。
but what they are trying to do is they are trying to use one position that
他們會用我的假身份，
I have had in a career here or there to distract from the
來掩蓋我的真實身份。
totality of my experience which is that I have worked for the
Central Intelligence Agency undercover overseas.
我曾經是中情局在國外工作的間諜。
I have worked for the National Security Agency undercover overseas.
我曾經是國防部在國外工作的間諜。
And I have worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency
我曾經是國家情報學院的講師。
as a lecturer at the joint Counterintelligence Training Academy
where I developed sources and methods for keeping our information and people secure
我可以在世界上最危險的地方，
in the most hostile and dangerous environments around the world.
從事情報工作。
So when they say I’m a low level systems administrator,
美國政府啞巴吃黃連，
that I don't know what I’m talking about it's somewhat misleading.
所以說我是個系統分析員。
Snowden said his life changed back when he was still a teenager
斯諾登說：有一件事改變了他的命運。
on the worst day in modern American history.
那就是911事件。
What did 9/11 mean to you?
911對你影響有多大？
I have never told anybody this.
我從來沒對記者說過這件事。
No journalist.
But I was on Fort Meade on September 11th
911那天，我就在國安局。
I was right outside the NSA.
我就在國安局大門口。
So I remember --
我清楚地記得：
I remember the tension on that day.
那天的氣氛非常緊張。
I remember hearing on the radio, the plane hitting
收音機裏傳來飛機撞樓的消息。
and I remember thinking my grandfather
我清楚地記得：我的爺爺，
who worked for the FBI at the time
他在聯邦調查局工作。
was in the Pentagon when the plane hit it.
飛機襲擊五角大樓的時候，他就在樓裏。
I take the threat of terrorism seriously.
我非常重視恐怖主義，
And I think we all do.
就像所有的美國人一樣。
I think it's really disingenuous for the government to invoke
但是，
and sort of scandalize our memories,
911事件之後，
to sort of exploit
美國政府利用人民的憤怒情緒，
the national trauma
喊著「反恐」的口號，
that we all suffered together
打著「國家安全」的旗幟，
and worked so hard to come through
to justify programs
幹了一些損害人民根本利益的事情。
that are have never been shown to keep us safe
but cost us liberties and freedoms
民主和自由，
that we don't need to give up,
這才是美國人民的根本需要。
and our Constitution says we should not give up.
Then there is this way of looking at it
讓我們換個角度。
-- our nation had been attacked in this --
我們美國遭到了無法預料的恐怖襲擊，
nonlinear way.
就像當年珍珠港一樣。
We were hurting.
Post Pearl Harbor hurting.
Why not cast the widest net possible?
我們應該禦敵於國門之外，監控全球。
Innocent people around the country were -- all felt the same way.
普通老百姓會說，
I've got nothing to hide.
我沒什麼好隱瞞的。
We've got to find this enemy we can't see.
監控可以抓到壞人。
The definition of a Security State is any nation
國家安全高於一切的國家就是專制的國家。
that prioritizes his security over all other considerations.
I don't believe the United States is or ever should be a Security State.
美國是一個專制的國家嗎？
If we want to be free
自由的人民，
we can't become subject to surveillance.
不應該成為監控的對象。
We can't give away our privacy.
我們不能放棄我們的隱私。
We can't give away our rights.
我們不能放棄我們的權利。
We have to be an active party.
我們必須行動起來，
We have to be an active part of our government.
我們必須讓政府知道，
And we have to say
美國是美國人民的，
there are some things worth dying for.
I think the country is one of them.
而不是美國政府的。
Like a lot of young men in our country,
美國很多年輕人願意參軍。
and especially given the fact that
your grandfather was at the FBI, your dad's a vet.
你爺爺是聯邦調查局的，你爸爸是軍人。
Like a lot of young men across America you wanted to join up, and you did.
他們都希望你為國效力。
In 2004, I joined the U.S. Army under the 18 X-ray Special Forces recruit program.
我2004年參的軍，在某軍區服役。
Now ...
我很尊敬軍人。
I have to give high respect to everyone in the military
and especially the graduates of those programs.
我所在連隊的戰友都比我強。
Because they are better men than I.
I was injured very early on in the program and I washed out.
後來，我受傷了，接著就退伍了。
I readily admit it. I don't hide that.
我並沒有隱瞞這段經歷。
Snowden reportedly left the military
斯諾登在軍隊的訓練中兩條腿都受過傷。
after breaking both of his legs in training.
The fact is that I tried.
我曾經是一名軍人，
You know, I saw what was going on in the world.
所以我瞭解美國受到的威脅。
I believed the government's arguments
我曾經相信：
that we were going to do good things in Iraq,
美國進軍伊拉克，
that we were going to free the oppressed.
是為了解放伊拉克人民。
And I wanted to do my part
我滿腔熱血，為國效力。
to help share the national burden
and create not just a better America but a better world.
不單是保衛家園，還要維護世界和平。
The problem was,
但是，
as time went on,
隨著年齡的增長，
as I rise,
rose to higher and higher levels of the intelligence community,
隨著閱歷的增加，
I gained more and more access,
我接觸到越來越多的情報，
as I saw more classified information at the highest levels,
我看到越來越機密的情報，
I realized that so many of the things
我才知道：
that we are told by the government simply aren't true.
和平只是口號。
Much like the arguments about aluminum tubes
比如說，
and weapons of mass destruction in Iraq,
「伊拉克擁有大規模殺傷性武器」。
Colin Powell’s speech with the veil of anthrax
前國務卿鮑威爾曾拿著一個病毒瓶子宣稱：
That Saddam was going to bring against us.
「薩達姆將用化學武器打敗我們」。
The Iraq war
伊拉克戰爭，
that I signed up for
我親身經歷的伊拉克戰爭，
was launched on false premises.
不過是和平旗幟下的侵略戰爭。
The American people were misled.
美國人民被忽悠了。
Now whether that was due to bad faith
到底是美國政府有意為之，
or simply mistakes of intelligence,
還是真的「相信了錯誤的情報」，
I can't say for sure.
我無法確定。
But I can say it shows the problem of putting too much faith
不過，我可以肯定的是：
in intelligence systems without debating them in public.
美國政府過份依賴情報本身就是錯誤。
We'll take another break here.
不要走開，廣告之後馬上回來。
Coming up, how Edward Snowden says the NSA can reach
斯諾登將告訴我們：
into our lives via our phones.
國安局如何對老百姓實施監控。
As soon as you turn it on it can be theirs.
你只要一開機，
They can turn it into a microphone they can take pictures from it
你就會任人魚肉。
Welcome back.
歡迎回來！
In the name of 9/11,
911之後，
the government was now able, if they wanted to,
政府可以對任何美國人，
to use our computers to reach into American lives and American homes,
實施全方位的監控。
unbeknowns to the citizen of this country.
Over time, Edward Snowden says
斯諾登認為：
he started thinking it was a perversion of the war on terrorism.
反恐監控已經超出它應有的限度。
Whatever you think of him,
what Edward Snowden told us about spying on our data
不管你怎麼看待斯諾登，
and our personal devices was chilling.
政府無孔不入的監控，的確讓人擔心。
And as an example, we used the phone in my hand.
我將用我的手機，來瞭解其中的玄機。
I want to ask you about this device.
我們聊聊手機吧。
This is not my IPhone.
這不是我的手機，
This is what drug dealers resort to.
這是一次性手機，
This is called a burner.
It's a temporary.
帶到俄羅斯用來報道冬奧會的。
It's the one I brought to cover the Olympics.
Because our I.T. people told me
我的同事告訴我，
that the Russians are so good at infiltration.
俄羅斯的特工很厲害。
How good?
他們的特工有多厲害？
And how good are the Americans?
我們的特工呢？
What can the NSA do with this device, if they wanted to get into my life?
如果國安局要對我實施監控，他們會怎麼做？
So, first off, that's probably the most expensive burner I have ever seen.
你這款一次性手機可不便宜。
But I guess we are at the up market -- I’m using a term of art.
-高檔貨！-哪裏哪裏。
Up market drug dealers here.
This is turned off. The NSA --
-已經關機。-國安局……
It's inert.
Right. The NSA,
the Russian intelligence service,
俄羅斯、中國、還有其他國家的情報部門，
the chinese intelligence service,
any intelligence service in the world
that has significant funding,
他們資金雄厚，
and a real technological research team,
技術先進。
can own that phone
只要你一開機，
the minute it connects to their network.
他們就可以遠程控制你的手機。
As soon as you turn it on, it can be theirs.
你的通訊錄、你的圖片、
They can turn it into a microphone.
你的文件，
They can take pictures from it, they can take the data off of it.
他們都可以得到。
But it's important to understand that
但是，前提條件是，
these things are typically done on a targeted basis.
這個手機已經被確定為監控目標。
Right? It's only done when people go,
換句話說，如果你成為嫌疑犯，
this phone is suspicious.
你的手機就沒有秘密。
I think it's being held by a drug dealer.
比如：毒販用過這台機，
I think it is being used by a terrorist.
恐怖分子用過這台機。
Can anyone turn it on remotely if it's off?
如果我關機，別人可以遠程開機嗎？
Can they turn on apps?
別人可以打開應用程序嗎？
Did anyone know or care that I googled
別人會不會知道，
the final score of the Rangers/Canadiens game last night
我在俄羅斯酒店，
because I was traveling here?
上網搜索了冬奧會？
I would say yes to all of those.
全部可以做到。
They can absolutely turn them on with the power turned off the device.
你關機了，他們還可以遠程開機。
That's pretty scary.
這真的讓人擔心。
But the thing about the Rangers game is also scary.
互聯網監控同樣如此。
You might say,
你可能會說：
does anybody really care
誰會關心我上網看了什麼比賽？
that I’m looking up the score for the Rangers game?
Well, a government
但是，政府、黑客、或者不懷好意的人，
or a hacker or some other nefarious individual
would say yes.
他們會利用你看似無用的網絡信息。
They're very interested in that.
你網上的資料越多，
That tells a lot about you.
他們越開心。
First off, it tell that you probably speak english.
分析資料後，他們可以知道你說英語。
It says you are probably an American.
他們可以知道你是個美國人。
You are interested in this sport.
他們可以知道你搜索了比賽。
They might know what your habits are.
他們可以知道你的興趣所在。
Where were you in the world when you checked the score?
他們可以知道你在哪上網。
Do you check it when you travel?
在旅途中，
or do you check it when you're just at home?
還是在家裏？
They'd be able to tell something called: "Your Pattern of Life".
你生活的方方面面暴露無遺。
When are you doing these kind of activities?
When do you wake up?
你幾點起床？
When do you go to sleep?
你幾點睡覺？
What other phones are around you when you wake up of go to sleep?
你身邊有沒有其他手機？
Are you with someone who's not your wife?
你有沒有小三？
Are you doing something,
你是不是到了一些不該到的地方？
are you some place you shouldn't be,
according to the government which is arbitrary, you know.
應不應該？
Are you engaged in any kind of activities we disapprove of,
合不合法？
even if they aren't technically illegal?
All of these things can raise your level of scrutiny.
違不違規？
Even if it seem entirely innocent to you.
Even if you have nothing to hide.
所有這些，政府說了算。
Even if you doing nothing wrong.
即使你是遵紀守法的良民，
These activities can be miscontruded, misinterpreted
你的這些信息也可能落入不法分子手中，
and used to harm use and individual
從而對你造成傷害。
Even without the government having any intend to do you wrong.
The problem is the capabilities themselves
更可怕的是：
are unregulated, un uncontrolled and dangerous.
美國政府的監控，不受任何組織的監管。
All because I googled Rangers/Canadiens final score.
我還是不要上網搜索比賽了。
Exactly.
沒錯。
Snowden says he was astonished back then,
斯諾登說，
at the access he had at his fingertips,
監控技術真正做到了無孔不入。
most notably including a computer program that,
他提到一個軟體，
as he put it, could get inside your thought process.
這個軟體可以窺探人們的思維。
When I think about an instance that
我當時就驚呆了！
really just struck me as,
真的真的，
Oh, my God, we can do this.
太先進了！
And that we can do it to anyone,
這個軟體適用於所有人。
was that people at NSA, analysts,
國安局用這個軟體監控互聯網。
can actually watch people's internet communications.
Watch them draft correspondence and actually
你跟人聊天，
watch their thoughts form as they type.
你打字，
As you write a message, you know,
an analyst at NSA or any service out there
你停頓，
that is using this kind of attack against people
can actually see
你修改用詞，
you write sentences and backspace over your mistakes, change the words, and then,
所有這些都在監控範圍之內。
kind of pause, and think about what you wanted to say
這個軟體，
and then change it.
甚至可以預測你下一句話說什麼。
It's this extraordinary intrusion
竊聽我們說過話，很正常。
not just into your communications,
這款軟體卻能夠入侵我們的大腦，
your finished messages
but your actual drafting process, into the way you think.
分析我們的思維習慣。
You must have been aware spying is sometimes called a dirty business.
間諜這行不容易。
Lives have been taken and unsavory deeds have been committed.
沒有風花雪月，只有刀光劍影。
You know,
唉……
I don't think anybody who --
who's been in the intelligence community for almost a decade as I have been,
我在這一行已經干了十年。
is really shocked
你虞我詐，
by the specific types of general operations
勾心鬥角，
when they are justified.
我早就見怪不怪。
What's more shocking for anybody
我真正關心的是：
is not the dirtiness of the business.
It's the dirtiness of the targeting.
針對普通百姓的監控，
It's the dirtiness of the way these things are being used.
It's the lack of respect for the public because --
已經氾濫成災。
the lack of respect for the intrusiveness of surveillance.
When the President and others have made the point
奧巴馬總統覺得，
that you should have gone through channels,
你可以走正常流程，
become a whistle-blower
向相關部門反映這個問題，
and not pursued the route you did,
而不應該搞這麼大動作。
what's your response?
你覺得呢？
I actually did go through channels.
我反映過。
And that is documented.
我曾經通過各種渠道反映過這個問題。
The NSA has records.
國安局肯定還有我的郵件存檔。
They have copies of E-mails right now
to their office of General Counsel,
我給紀檢寫過信。
to their oversight and compliance folks, from me
我給監查寫過信。
raising concerns
我在信中清楚地表達了我的觀點。
about the NSA's interpretations of its legal authorities.
I have raised the complaints not just officially
in writing through e-mail
除了公開的渠道之外，
to these offices and these individuals
我私底下還跟我的部門主管，
but to my supervisors, to my colleagues,
in more than one office.
我的很多同事反應過這個問題。
I did it in ft. Meade. I did it in Hawaii.
And many, many of these individuals were shocked by these programs.
很多人聽我說完，感到很驚訝。
They had never seen them themselves.
他們從來沒有聽說過這個監控計劃。
And the ones who had went, you know, you're right.
他們說，你是對的。
These are things that are are really concerning.
監控計劃有些過火。
These aren't things we should be doing.
情報部門不應該這樣。
Maybe we're going too far here. But --
但是，
if you say something about this, they're going to destroy you.
如果你向公眾揭露這件事，
Do you know what happens to people who stand up and talk about this?
領導很生氣，後果很嚴重。
What did you report? What was the response?
你在郵件裏寫了些什麼？官方有回應嗎？
So I reported that there were real problems
我寫了，國安局濫用職權之類……
with the way the NSA was interpreting its legal authorities.
And the response more or less in bureaucratic language was
官方回應就是「少管閒事」。
you should stop asking questions.
And these are recent records, this isn't ancient history.
這些都記錄在案，你可以去查。
One of my final official acts in government was continuing
不久前，我辦的最後一件公事就是：
one of these communications with a legal office.
我寫信向國會投訴，
And in fact, I am so sure that these communications exist
讓他們查查關於監控的事。
that I have called on congress to write a letter to the NSA to verify that they do.
Write to the office of General Counsel and say,
這次官方給我的答覆是：
did mr. Snowden ever communicate any concerns
尊敬的斯諾登先生：
about the NSA's interpretation of its legal authorities?
請不要再過問國安局的事。
Now about that last point there about the paper trail that
關於斯諾登針對國安局的投訴郵件，
Snowden says exists within the NSA, so far
我們從多方渠道瞭解到，
NBC News has learned from multiple sources that Snowden did, indeed,
斯諾登至少寫過一封投訴郵件。
send at least one e-mail to the General Counsel's office
raising policy and legal questions.
We have filed a request under the freedom of information act
我們將申請公開更多的文件，
to look for any other records.
從而瞭解更多的細節。
And when we continue here tonight, to question:
不要走開，廣告之後馬上回來。
Are the secrets of the U.S. Military safe?
美軍的保密工作。
I'm a human being.
我也是人在江湖，
I could make mistakes. I could make the wrong call.
身不由己。
And welcome back.
歡迎回來！
As we enter our second half hour,
as we continue to hear from Edward Snowden,
part of a wide-ranging conversation taped a week ago in Moscow.
斯諾登將繼續揭秘。
We have already heard some extraordinary things, but as you'll see,
he's not done yet
I’m doing this to serve my country.
我這麼做是為了祖國，
I'm still working for the government.
我現在依然在為美國效力。
Being a patriot means knowing when to protect your country.
真正愛國的人，在關鍵時刻才會站出來。
If I could go anywhere in the world, that place would be home.
我想回家。
Edward Snowden's last posting was in Hawaii.
斯諾登最後一次接觸機密文件是在夏威夷。
There he rented a house where he lived with his girlfriend
當時，他和女友租了間房，
and performed electronic surveillance for the NSA.
為國安局執行秘密任務。
It was said he took his last position to gain access to the
據說，斯諾登就是利用這次機會，
final documents he wanted to steal and then leak.
竊取了國安局的高度機密文件。
How long prior to leaving Hawaii
你從什麼時候開始，
did you start to say to yourself,
收集機密文件，
I’m going to gather this, I’m going to put this away,
準備曝光這些文件？
I’m going to expose this?
I think given the ongoing investigation
國安局還在自查呢。
that something better not to get into in a news interview,
我不方便說。
but I would be happy to discuss this with the government.
但是，如果政府想知道，私下跟我聯繫。
What is the number?
你掌握了多少機密文件？
What's the closest you have come to estimating the number of documents?
I will say the 1.7 million documents figure that the intelligence community
據消息靈通人士透露：我掌握了170萬份機密文件。
has been bandying about,
the director of NSA himself
上星期，國安局基斯局長說，
Keith Alexander said just a week ago in the Australian Financial Times --
Australian Financial Review, I believe,
that they have no idea
他也不知道我掌握了多少機密文件。
what documents were taken at all.
Their auditing was so poor,
國安局的保密工作很差。
so negligent that any private contractor,
not even an employee of the government
局裏的每個人都有機會，
could walk into the NSA building,
take whatever they wanted,
神不知鬼不覺地拿走你想要的文件。
and walk out with it and they would never know.
Now, I think that's a problem.
我覺得，這很有問題。
And I think that's something that needs to be resolved.
這是國安局迫切需要解決的問題。
People need to be held to account for.
內審工作做足了嗎？
Has it happened before?
以前發生過洩密嗎？
Could it happen again?
將來呢？
What didn't you grab?
你取走了哪些文件？
Was there a threshold?
你的原則是什麼？
Right. I didn't want to take information
我沒有取走那些可能危及別人生命的文件。
that would basically be taken and thrown out in the press
that would cause harm to individuals,
that would cause people to die, that would put lives at risk.
So a good gauge
評估洩密者，
of what information was provided to the journalists
首先要統計媒體曝光文件的數量。
is a representation of what you see in the press.
Now the NSA and the Defense Intelligence Agency
有些人說，
and some of these other organizations have claimed
我竊取了一些美軍的軍事資料。
that lives are at risk,
that all this military information was out there,
that, you know, I took all this information about missiles and
warheads and tanks,
but we don't see any of that in the Newspaper.
但是，為什麼在媒體上看不到這些文件呢？
We haven't seen any stories on that.
Snowden turned over the secret documents
斯諾登把機密文件給了媒體人格倫和記錄片導演勞拉。
to Glenn Greenwald, a lawyer turned journalist,
and Laura Poitras, a documentary film maker
both of whom traveled to Russia for our interview.
他們兩人都來到俄羅斯接受採訪。
In his recently published book "No Place to Hide,"
在格倫的新書《無處藏身》中，
Greenwald described that moment he first met Snowden in Hong Kong.
他介紹了第一次在香港見到斯諾登的情景。
What did you make of him?
斯諾登給你的第一印象是什麼？
The initial impression was one of extreme confusion.
我剛開始以為是他是個六七十歲的老頭，
Because I was expecting to meet someone in his 60s or 70s, someone very senior
而且以前從來沒聽說過這個人，
in the Agency because I knew almost nothing about him prior to our arrival in Hong Kong.
所以我當時心裏有些忐忑。
It was a --
我……
a really intimidating moment.
有點擔心。
You know, it was --
因為我知道，
it was the most real point of no return.
自己走了一條不歸路。
Because the minute you start talking to a journalist
我這個間諜，
as an intelligence officer
坐在媒體人面前，
on camera,
坐在攝像機面前，
there is really no going back from that.
侃侃而談，
That's where it all comes together.
你就知道我下了決心。
Also, you had this tangible evidence.
你拿到了文件。
In effect he was saying to you
他用實實在在的證據，
if I wasn't legit, where else would I have gotten this?
曝光了監控項目。
Right. I mean, that was certainly a good start
沒錯！
to establishing his credibility
千言萬語不如白紙黑字。
and his authenticity was the fact he was able to produce
many thousands of documents
from the most secretive Agency of the world's most powerful government.
而且，這些機密文件還來自超級大國美國。
But at the same time there were questions about
但是，如何檢驗文件的真偽也是個挑戰。
the authenticity of those documents, the provenance,
the motives that led to his taking them
同時，我還要瞭解他的動機是什麼。
and what it was that he would say when he identified himself to the world as the source.
他的真實身份以及他的訴求。
By handing over the documents to journalists,
斯諾登把文件交給媒體的原因是：
Snowden said he wanted to put some space
他希望由第三方公開機密文件，
between himself and what he himself
stole are from government computers.
He wanted others to break the stories and do the reporting and
從而減少對相關當事人的衝擊。
check to see which stories might cause undue harm.
And that's the reason that the journalists have been
我要求媒體按照我們事前達成的協議，
required by their agreement with me as the source,
來公開這些機密文件。
although they could obviously break that or do whatever they want,
當然，媒體隨時可能撕毀協議。
but I demanded that they agreed to consult with the government
我還要求媒體在公開文件之前，
to make sure no individuals or specific harms could be caused by any of that reporting.
一定要與政府相關部門溝通。
That includes NBC News
我們電視台也與斯諾登簽了協議。
which has reported on its own batch of Snowden documents
我們可以自主地報道相關文件內容，
and has a reporting relationship with Glenn Greenwald.
也可以與格倫保持聯繫。
When it comes to specific stories about
監控項目的一些細節，
the specific collection programs, about specific targets,
比如具體的人和事，
these aren't decided by me.
這些內容都由媒體自己決定是否曝光。
These are decided by Newspapers.
You see the part of this and for a lay audience looking on,
我們換個角度。
they know that this came from you.
所有媒體手中的所有文件都來自你。
The bulk release to the journalists came from you.
They are guessing that you had decisions to make within what you had access to,
你現在卻說：
so then they hear you saying, I didn't put that out, the journalists did.
曝光者是媒體，不關我的事。
Right. Now. That's a fair question.
沒錯。
Anyone can second guess my judgment.
很多人都質疑我。
Again, I’m a human being.
我也是人在江湖，
I could make mistakes. I could make the wrong call.
身不由己。
But the reality is the situation determined that this needed to be told to the public.
目前的局勢，決定了我必須公開這些機密文件。
To your knowledge, there is nothing in what you have handed over to the journalists
你交給媒體的文件中，
materially damaging or threatening to the military or national security?
有沒有涉及美軍行動和國家安全的內容？
There is nothing that would be published that would harm the public interest.
我曝光的文件不會影響美國人的安全。
These are programs that need to be understood,
文件中的一些內容非常複雜，
that need to be known,
媒體不經過長期深入的調查，
that require deep background and context for research.
They are difficult to report.
根本不知所以然。
But they are of critical public importance.
但是，這部分內容卻很重要。
Just for clarification here note that Snowden didn't deny turning over military secrets.
可以明確的是，斯諾登並不否認洩露軍事機密。
He asserted instead they wouldn't be published.
他強調這些機密不會公開。
Another break.
不要走開，廣告之後馬上回來。
When we continue, how Snowden justifies what he did.
看斯諾登如何自我辯護。
There have been are times throughout American history
美國歷史反覆證明：
where what is right is not the same as what is legal.
合法的事未必是正確的事。
Sometimes to do the right thing you have to break the law.
有時，你必須打破常規，才能有所作為。
On the range between ticker tape parade and life sentence,
如果你回到美國，
what do you think ought to happen to you
你會成為全民偶像，
if and when you return to the United States?
還是鋃鐺入獄？
These are things that no individual should empower themselves to really decide.
這個嘛，很難說。
You know, I’m going to give myself a parade.
我問心無愧。
But neither am I going to walk into a jail cell
我不會傻傻地去自首，
to serve as a bad example
成為大眾口中的反面教材。
for other people in government
who see something happening,
我只不過履行了美國公民的基本義務，
some violation of the constitution
去維護美國憲法賦予我們的基本權利。
who think they need to say something about it.
You hear often in the United States are why doesn't he come home and face the music?
你為什麼不自己回國接受審判呢？
It's a fair question. You know.
問得好！
Why doesn't he --
我為什麼不主動回國？
Why doesn't he face charges?
But it's also uninformed.
因為我在國內不可能受到公正的審判。
Because what has been lain against me aren't normal charges.
They are extraordinary charges.
We have seen more charges under the Espionage Act
最近這些年，
in the last administration than we have in all other administrations in American history.
死在《反間諜法》下的冤魂可不少。
The Espionage Act provides anyone accused of it
我涉及間諜罪，
of no chance to make a public defense.
我得不到公開的審判。
You are not allowed to argue
即使我掌握了充足的材料來證明自己的清白。
based on all the evidence in your favor because that evidence may be classified,
也沒用。
even if the it is exculpatory.
因為所有材料都是機密文件，無法公開。
And so when people say why don't you go home and face the music, I say
如果人們還要問：你為什麼不一人做事一人當？
you have to understand that the music is not an open court and a fair trial.
我的回答是：三十六計，走為上。
What would you do if you had an audience with the President right now?
如果奧巴馬總統現在正在看電視，
What would you say?
你對他有什麼建議？
I would leave advising the President to his advisers.
無話可說……
That's --
I wouldn't presume to place myself
總統日理萬機，我怎麼可以不自量力？
on the level to be able to suggest what his course of action should be.
Would you ask him if you could come home free and clear?
你會請求他赦免你嗎？
I think that's a decision he'll weigh
這是一個合理的請求。
and decide based on what he believes would serve the public interest.
但是，
I think that's proper and appropriate.
總統也有自己的考量。
In your mind though,
在你看來，
are you blameless?
你是清白的？
Have you done, as you look at this, just a good thing?
你這樣做完全是為了老百姓的利益？
Have you performed, as you see it, a public service?
I think it can be both.
是的。
I think the most important idea
美國歷史反覆證明：
is to remember that there have been times throughout American history
where what is right is not the same as what is legal.
合法的事，未必是正確的事。
Sometimes to do the right thing you have to break a law.
有時，你必須打破常規，才能有所作為。
And the key there is in terms of civil disobedience.
關鍵時刻，如何取捨？
You have to make sure that what you are risking,
what you are bringing onto yourself
非暴力不合作，是個不錯的選擇。
doesn't serve as a detriment to anybody else,
it doesn't hurt anybody else.
If you are volunteering yourself
忍無可忍，
to be used as a negative example,
拍案而起，
If you are volunteering to spend a lifetime in prison
直言不諱。
rather than to spend a time in prison --
a short period where you will come out,
我不入地獄，誰入地獄？
you'll advocate, you emerge stronger
and be able to inspire other people
to resist these policies, are you doing good or you doing bad?
Legal sources tell NBC News that Snowden's legal team
法律人士透露，
has been in contact with the government's lawyers,
斯諾登的律師團隊試圖與政府溝通。
but negotiations have not yet begun.
但是，雙方還沒有正式接觸。
Are you looking for clemency or amnesty?
你希望獲得赦免，
Would you like to go home?
證明你還是想回家嘛。
I don't think there has ever been any question that I would like to go home.
當然！
I mean, I have, from day one, said I'm doing this to serve my country.
身為美國人，我一直在為美國工作。
I'm still working for the government.
現在，我也在為美國效力。
Now whether amnesty or clemency ever becomes a possibility is not for me to say.
赦免，不是我說了算。
That's a debate for the public and the government to decide.
無論如何，
But if I could go anywhere in the world, that place would be home.
我最想去的地方，依然是我在美國的家。
And when we continue, an American in Russia.
不要走開，廣告之後馬上回來。
Edward Snowden talks about what his life is like now in exile
一個美國間諜在俄羅斯怎麼生活？
and how he feels about coming home.
I think it's important to remember that people don't
破斧沉舟，捨身取義。
set their lives on fire and burn down everything they love for no reason.
敢問世上幾人能做到？
This is a big cultural change.
你在俄羅斯過得怎麼樣？
You, in effect, moved to Russia from Hawaii.
What is your life like?
美國和俄羅斯可差得遠。
You know, it's -- it is a major cultural gap.
的確，
And it requires adjustment. But
異國他鄉的生活需要時間適應。
even though I didn't choose to be here, even though, you know,
circumstances really trapped me here, ah,
I can adapt.
I can live life as an American more or less.
That's the beauty of the internet.
還好有互聯網，
Is that we are no longer tied to our communities
讓我依然過著美國式的生活。
merely by, you know, physical connections.
Right now I’m watching a show, "The Wire." --
我最近在看《火線》，都不用找字幕。
I'm really enjoying it. Second season, not so great, but --
第一季挺好看，後面就……
What do you make of the fact
你在俄羅斯期間，
that President Putin's standing in the world, let's say,
普京在國際政壇興風作浪，
has changed so dramatically during the time you have been here?
你怎麼看？
It is -- It's really frustrating for someone
為了民主和自由，
who is working so hard
我千辛萬苦，
to expand the domain of our rights and our privacy
好不容易離開美國，
to end up stuck in a place
where those rights are being challenged
到俄羅斯才發現，一夜回到解放前。
in ways that I would consider deeply unfair.
The recent bloggers' registration law in Russia,
I can't think of any basis for a law like that.
Not just in Russia, but any country.
The government shouldn't be regulating the operations of a free press
whether it is NBC or whether it's some blogger in their living room.
There is so much that needs to be defended here in Russia,
but I am limited by my inability to speak Russian and so on an so forth
that it's an isolating and frustrating thing.
I really hope that Russia,
我真心希望俄羅斯、美國和其他國家的政府，
the United States and many other countries
will work to push back against this
不要表面上「民主」，
constantly increasing surveillance,
實際上「你是民，我是主」。
against this constant erosion and abrasion of public rights.
Correct me if I’m wrong. The arc of your life is
恕我直言。
you went from signing up for the military after 9/11,
911之後，
in effect saying you were willing to die for your country
你毅然從軍，精忠報國。
to then telling people you half expected
現在，因為你的所做所為，
to die via abduction or assassination after
美國一些間諜卻要面臨死亡威脅。
what you have done in this instance.
That's a pretty dramatic arc since 2003, 2004.
這是不是「賣國」？
I think that's actually a
我這樣做……
a solid representation of the
也是迫於無奈。
dramatic arcs that have happened within our government in the same period.
Do you think our government has changed since September 11?
911之後，美國政府已經不是原來的政府。
Have the policies changed? Has the manner of our government changed?
外交、國防、政黨等等方面，
Has civil engagement with the government changed?
都發生了重大改變。
Have our politics changed?
但是，
Are things radically different in terms of partisanship?
有些改變我不敢茍同。
There have been radical changes within our government.
Do you see yourself as a patriot?
你愛國嗎？
I do.
當然。
You know, I think patriot is a word that's --
儘管「愛國」一詞，
that's thrown around so much that it can be devalued nowadays.
如今氾濫成災。
But being a patriot doesn't mean prioritizing service to government above all else.
我依然當之無愧。
Being a patriot means knowing when to protect your country,
knowing when to protect your constitution,
因為，
knowing when to protect your countrymen
from the violations of -- and encroachments
真正愛國的人，在關鍵時刻才會站出來。
of adversaries and those adversaries don't have to be foreign countries.
They can be bad policies.
They can be officials who, you know, need a little bit more accountability.
They can be mistakes of government and simple overreach
and things that should never have been tried or that went wrong.
Did you say earlier you were still serving your government?
你現在依然為美國政府效力？
Yes.
是的。
How so?
你做了些什麼？
When you look at the actions that I have taken,
你回過頭看整件事，
when you look at the carefulness of the programs that have been disclosed,
我走的每一步，
when you look at the way this has all been filtered
我給的每一份文件，
through the most trusted journalistic institutions in America.
美國的新聞媒體都知道。
When you look at the way the government has had a chance to chime in on this
現在，美國法院可以審查監控項目。
and to make their case,
and when you look at the changes that it's resulted in,
現在，美國政府收斂了監控行為。
we have had the first Open Federal Court
to ever review these programs declare it likely unconstitutional and Orwellian
現在，美國國會暫停了某些監控項目。
and you see congress agreeing that massive surveillance,
bulk collection needs to end.
With all of these things happening
現在，連白宮都覺得，
that the government agrees all the way up to the President, again,
美國正變得越來越強大！
make us stronger
how can it be said that I did not serve my government?
美國三大權力機關因我而變，
How can it be said that this harmed the country
我做得還不夠嗎？
when all three branches of government have made reforms as a result of it?
Many in government say Snowden should pay for what he has done
很多政府高官覺得，無論斯諾登身在何處，
whether or not he comes home.
他都應該接受美國法院的審判。
What do you miss about home?
想家嗎？
I think the only --
教我如何不想她？
the only answer to something like that for somebody in my situation is,
you know, what don't I miss?
What would you miss?
What wouldn't you miss?
I miss my family.
我想我的家人。
I miss my home.
我想我的房子。
I miss my colleagues.
我想我的同事。
I miss the work.
我想我的工作。
Because caught up in all these issues,
美國國安局並不是美國人的敵人。
people have unfairly demonized the NSA to a point that's too extreme.
These are good people trying to do hard work for good reasons.
他們是一群為美國人服務的精英。
The problem that we are confronted with,
但是，
the challenge that we are facing
is not the working level guy, you know,
some mustache-twirling villain who's out to destroy your life.
It's the fact that senior officials
國安局裏的一些高官，
are investing themselves with powers
濫用了人民賦予的權力。
that they are not entitled to,
and they are doing it without asking the public for any kind of consent.
Is what I heard you feeling bad
你是不是感覺，
for the damage to the NSA
有些對不起國安局？
as a result of what you have exposed from the NSA?
Well, what you need to understand in what I was saying --
我覺得……
I guess not what you need to understand, but
你誤解我的意思。
what I'm saying is not damage to the NSA.
恨之切，因為愛之深。
It's the sort of conspiratorial thinking
that can emerge sometimes when we see the government has committed
real and serious abuses
that lead us to think they can do no good
and the government does have legitimate programs
and legitimate purposes and they can do great things.
The NSA can as well.
I think it's important to remember
你想想……
that people don't set their lives on fire.
沒有人願意放棄自己舒適的生活，
They don't say good-bye to their families,
actually pack up without saying good-bye to their families.
沒有人願意離開自己親愛的家人。
They don't walk away from their extraordinary comfortable lives.
I made a lot of money for a guy with no high school diploma.
And burn down everything they love for no reason.
我會無原無故地這樣做嗎？
So you're a kid from North Carolina and while I,
你是個老北。
after this interview, am free to fly back to the United States,
我做完採訪就可以回國，你卻還要待在這裏。
you can't. Does that hurt you?
很不爽吧？
I think nobody could, no American could be prohibited from coming home
美國人愛自由，
or traveling anywhere else without feeling a sense of loss.
我也一樣。
But, again, I may have lost my ability to travel,
我失去了旅行的自由。
but I have gained the ability to go to sleep at night, put my head on the pillow
但我做了應該做的事。
and feel comfortable that I have done the right thing
每晚安然入睡，這樣也挺好。
even when it was the hard thing.
I'm comfortable with that.
A good number of Americans, of course,
《後記》
feel that because of what they see as an act of treason,
就像大部分美劇一樣，
they sleep less soundly at night
斯諾登開始的時候，
fearing this massive leak of secrets has endangered the country.
神情自若，妙語連珠，
There is more on the way.
到後來，
Glenn Greenwald says the next story he is going to publish
左顧右盼，喋喋不休，
based on the Snowden documents
像個教政經的老頭。
may be the biggest yet in terms of impact.
我實在看不下去了！
That is our broadcast for tonight.
而且，斯諾登身在俄羅斯，
We want to let you know we're going to keep going in the studio
寄人籬下，說人壞話。
to ask the question, in part to take on this same question
不識抬舉！
is Snowden a hero or a traitor?
因此，我在翻譯時做了適當的修飾。
We have assembled correspondents and former government officials
英文字幕，一個真實的斯諾登。
to analyze what he just had to say
and play some material from Snowden that we have not yet aired.
中文字幕，一個完美的斯諾登。
It will happen on our website NBCNews.com.
Please join us there. Join the conversation.
翻譯：Q水
It will start now and run for the next hour.
And long after tonight's broadcast
it will remain posted on the web as a companion to what we have just seen tonight.
For the rest of you, your late local News begins now.
For all of us at NBC News, good night from New York.