(音乐) [Music]
大家好，欢迎来到声音和图像实验室 hello and welcome to sound and image lab
杜比学院播客这是 the dolby institute podcast this is a
展示艺术家如何使用技术来 show about how artists use technology to
讲述他们的故事，我是主持人 tell their stories and i'm your host
格伦·凯瑟 glenn kaiser
今天我们继续报道 today we're continuing our coverage of
一些开创性的工作正在进行 some of the groundbreaking work being
在电子游戏和阿莱斯特·哈里斯 done in video games and aleister harris
和后面的音效团队坐下来 sits down with the sound team behind
《对马岛之鬼》一个巨大的开放世界 ghost of tsushima a giant open world
武士动作游戏设定在封建日本 samurai action game set in feudal japan
该团队采取了艰苦的步骤来获得 the team took painstaking steps to get
玩家的真实和身临其境 players as authentic and immersive and
经验丰富，我相信 experienced as possible and i believe
你会得到一个 you're going gonna come away with a
对所有工作有了新的感激 newfound appreciation for all the work
这就是构建声音的过程 that goes into constructing the sound
对于这些庞大的史诗游戏来说 for these sprawling epic games like
对马岛之魂 ghost of tsushima
我真心希望你们喜欢这一集 i really hope you enjoy this episode and
这门课还会讲到更多 we have more coming up over the course
接下来的几周会有更多的剧集 of the next few weeks more episodes on
我们的播客是关于游戏的 our podcast about games and so for now
我要把它交给阿拉斯泰尔 i'm going to hand it over to alastair
来自杜比游戏开发者关系 from dolby game developer relations
(音乐) [Music]
嗨，我是阿利斯泰尔·赫斯特，资深选手 hi i'm alistair hurst the senior game
开发商关系经理杜比 developer relations manager dolby
今天我很高兴为大家带来 i'm very pleased today to be bringing
你们是音效团队的成员 you some of the sound team who worked on
我觉得《苏马岛之魂》这个游戏 ghosts of sushima a game that i think
会成为经典和今天的我们有什么关系 will become a classic and today we have
布拉德利·迈耶牧师博士，他是 the dr reverend bradley meyer who is the
游戏的音频总监很差劲 audio director on the game apoorva
Banzal高级程序员 banzal senior programmer
亚当·利德贝特是一名监督员 adam lidbetter who is a supervising
索尼产品的声音设计师 sound designer at sony product
发展集团 development group
安德鲁·巴雷什，高级音乐编辑 and andrew baresh senior music editor at
所以这款游戏是索尼产品开发来的 sony product development so this game to
对我来说，它似乎是一切 me it seems like everything
一起制作这款游戏 came together on this game making games
是很难，你不总是得到 is hard and you don't always get
一切都对齐，但在这个游戏中 everything aligning but in this game
你知道游戏设计，音频 you know the game design the audio the
艺术，所有的东西似乎都排在一起 art all that stuff seem to line up and
在这里创造真正的经典 create a real classic here
美丽的世界很有趣 uh beautiful world interesting
字符 characters
布拉德，我很好奇多久了 and so uh i'm curious brad how long was
这个游戏正在开发中 this game in development
是的，我们从 yeah we started in uh
我想2016年初是我们开始的时候 i think early 2016 is when we we began
在前期制作中 pre-production on it um
然后它就出来了 and uh so it came out in
2020年7月，所以你知道 july of 2020 so it was you know about uh
五年了，当我从 five years uh when i'm from from
从开始到结束，是的，就是这样 beginning to end but yeah that was that
是不是我们从a开始 was it um you know we start with a
制作音频的团队非常小 really pretty small team uh the audio
团队实际上只有我和一个 team was actually just myself and a
声音实现者 sound implementer at that point um
然后我们带来了 and then we brought
关于资深音效设计师josh Lord on a senior sound designer josh lord we
雇佣了他 hired him
大概六个月吧 uh maybe six months in
然后我们依靠索尼 and uh and then we relied on sony uh
产品开发组有很多 product development group for a lot of
帮助安德鲁是队里的一员 help andrew was actually on the team
从一开始也是，但是你 from the beginning as well but uh you
就像我们在制定公式一样 know kind of as we were formulating
作曲家的思想和音乐是如何产生的 composer ideas and and how the music
会起作用，但这是非常 would work but it was it was a very
一开始是小团队 small team at the beginning
伟大的 great
那你是怎么招募新成员的 so how did you onboard new members how
你让他们上台让他们明白了吗 did you bring them on so they understood
对游戏的憧憬和保持 the vision of the game and keep
所有的对齐 everything aligned
你知道，我的意思是绝对有 um you know i mean there's definitely a
很多参考资料都是我们从 lot of reference that we pulled from uh
从特别是从电影院你 from especially from from cinema you
知道很多 know a lot of uh
显然黑泽明的电影 obviously kurosawa films um
小林 kobayashi
我们也 we also
看了13个刺客，这是 looked at 13 assassins which was a
由takashi mikey um翻拍自 remake by takashi mikey um from the
2000年代中期，那是另一个 mid-2000s and that was another one where
嗯，你知道，只是看着你可以 uh you know just watching that you could
我觉得它很接地气 kind of see that it's very grounded and
那是那真的是很多 that was that was really a lot of what
我们要找的就是那种 we were looking for was was kind of that
你的脚踏实地的一面jimbo sanjiro RON grounded aspect of yo jimbo sanjiro ron
13个刺客，所以他们有点 13 assassins and so those were kind of a
非常强的一点 really strong point uh kind of to get
人们开始理解了 people kicked off and understanding the
视力和其他东西，比如我 vision um and the other thing like i
他说那里人不多 said is is there weren't a lot of people
尽早完成项目，这样 working on the project early so that
给了我们一些时间来玩 gave us some time to like kind of at
至少建立一个声音调色板来帮忙 least build up a sound palette to help
描述了我们的审美 kind of describe the aesthetic we were
寻找，然后就变成了 looking for and then it was just a
从那里开始打磨它 matter of polishing it from there
很好，跟我多讲讲 great so yeah tell me a bit more about
你做的前期制作 that pre-production did you do
模型，你知道，张贴线性 mock-ups you know um posting linear
你是怎么找到那个 stuff how did you you know find the
游戏之声 sound of the game
是的，我是说 yeah i mean
我想这上面有很多东西 i think with a lot of things on this
这个项目是从研究开始的 project it was it started with research
实际上我们做了大量的 actually we did an immense amount of
研究 research
每个球队都这么做了，因为你知道 every single team did because you know
我们真的需要了解整个 we're really having to learn this entire
历史时期真的 historical time period it really
碰巧它真的存在，而我们想要 happened it really existed and we wanted
在创造性自由的时候 to while taking creative liberties were
必要时，我们仍然想做的时间 necessary we still wanted to do the time
期间和内容公正所以它 period and and the content justice so it
这是从研究1开始的 really started with you know research i
意思是研究什么样的盔甲能 mean researching what kind of armor did
蒙古人穿的是煮过的皮革 mongols wear okay it was boiled leather
你怎么做煮皮盔甲和 how do you make boiled leather armor and
实际上是在做制作的实验 actually doing experiments of making
水煮皮革盔甲的面板是什么样的 panels of boiled leather armor what kind
武士的盔甲是 of armor did the samurai have it was
更多的是纸质的，那么你是如何制作的 more paper-based so how do you make
用纸做的坚固盔甲 strong armor out of paper and um
你知道什么样的鞋能 you know what kind of of shoes did
人们穿的是什么马和 people wear what about the horses and
所以它是它只是一个常数 so it was it was just constant uh
研究，然后就出去了 research and then just going out in the
现场和记录 field and recording
我们雇佣了 we employed uh our
索尼日本工作室的团队 team at uh sony japan studio um
我们和基塔关系很好 we had a great relationship with kita
骚扰和tarasakisan，他们出借了 harassan and tarasakisan and they lent
我们 us
是他们团队中相当不错的一部分 a you know decent portion of their team
要去录遍整个主 to go record throughout the the main
日本的岛屿嗯去捕捉了很多 island of japan uh to capture a lot of
我们的氛围 ambience for us
嗯，所有这些事情真的有点 um and all these things really kind of
帮助我们了解游戏是如何进行的 helped inform kind of how the game was
发出声音 going to sound
很好，在识别所有人方面 great uh and in terms of identifying all
你的技术系统 the technical systems that you were
要为这款游戏建造 going to have to build for this game
因为很明显有很多 because obviously there were a lot of
他们嗯 them um
那是早期的还是刚刚的 was that early on or was that just as
你在发现的过程中前进 you move through the process discovering
缺失的东西是怎么做到的 things that were missing how did that
过程中去 process go
两者都有一点，但基本上都是 a little bit of both but it was mostly
在早期，我的意思是你知道一些质数 early on i mean you know a couple prime
我们知道我们想要的例子 examples were we knew we wanted to have
一个非常深刻的音乐系统，所以你知道 a really deep music system so you know
安德鲁，波尔巴和我我们开始了 andrew and porba and i we started
早点谈话，试着弄清楚 talking early and trying to figure out
有点像我们的边缘 kind of what the edges were where we
我们想让你知道 were going to want to have you know
音乐变化的独特音乐 unique music where music changes
所以我们开始研究 and so we started working on
用臭名昭著的第二太阳的系统 with the system from infamous second sun
并以此为基础 and kind of building on that making it
更灵活 more flexible um
然后是另一个大例子 and then the other kind of big example
那个可怜的人可能会说 of that that apoorva could probably talk
更多的是我们的环境系统和你 about more is our ambient system and you
知道这个事实 know just the fact that
你知道我们当时是一个小团队 uh you know we were a really small team
但是我们需要做 uh but we needed to make
你知道的，一个巨大的游戏 uh you know a gigantic game and
你知道，我认为比赛的规模 you know i think the size of the game
跟什么比起来真是太大了 uh was was huge uh compared to what
我们之前做过的，和 we've done before and compared to the
团队的规模对我们来说真的 size of the team so for us it was really
想办法解决这个问题 about figuring out ways that we could do
聪明地做事，建立系统 things smartly and build systems that
是可扩展的，所以我们没有 were scalable so that we weren't having
你知道的 to spend you know
我们多年的发展时间刚刚 years of our development time just
试图维护系统，但是 trying to maintain the systems but
而是数据可以驱动它们 rather that the data could drive them
好酷 okay cool
我们来深入研究一下 um yeah let's dig into uh some of those
你建立的系统是个巨大的世界 systems you you built it's a huge world
我很好奇你是怎么做到的 i'm curious you know how did you scale
准备好你需要的一切 up everything that you needed for that
同时又不失灵活性 without losing flexibility and
通用性，你知道系统做了什么 generality you know what systems did you
为这款游戏构建 build for this game
所以我认为基石是什么 yeah so i think the cornerstone of what
我们建造的那个代表了 we built that kind of represents the
灵活性 flexibility
不失一般性和 without loss of general generality and
就像设计机构是环境音乐 like design agency was the ambient music
系统或环境音响系统 system or ambient sound system
和 and
它背后的想法是使用 the the idea behind it was to use
程序技术或程序 procedural technology or procedural
生成一些数据点和 generation with some data points and
也 also
驾驶 the driving
而决策内容即布拉德 and decision-making content that brad
和其他声音设计师 provides and the other sound designers
将填充 would populate
基本上在周围的区域 to basically in the area around the
球员 player
播放不同的声音，并始终做到这一点 play different sounds and always make it
足够细致以至于任何区域 nuanced enough so such that any area
听起来像 sounded like
它在这种环境中被浸透了 it was soaked in this kind of ambience
环境景观 ambient landscape
所以从来没有看起来从来没有 so it never it never seemed like the
玩家独自一人 player was alone
除非我们有意让他们这么做 unless we intentionally wanted them to
感到孤独 feel alone
所以不管在哪里 so it didn't matter where in the
即使在那里你也会去的环境 environment you would go even if there
你没有敌人或其他人吗 was no enemies or other people you
我一直都有个助手 always had this sidekick that was the
环境或环境本身 environment or the ambience itself and
所以 so
氛围就像音频本身 the ambience like the audio itself did a
很好地利用了 really good job of playing off of what
视觉效果强化了这一点 the visuals were and reinforced that
有点忧郁的旅程 kind of melancholic kind of journey that
Jyn在整个比赛中经历了很多 jyn has through the entire game a lot of
归结起来就是 it comes down to
制作一个简单的创作系统 making an authoring system that's easy
足够让设计师使用或不使用 enough for designers to use and doesn't
消除设计师机构认为 eliminate the designer agency that
存在，所以我们使用excel表格 exists and so we use excel sheets
开车 to drive
这是什么样的信息啊 what sort of information that was
然后提供给系统 provided to the system and then the
运行时使用了它和一些 runtime used that along with some
统计学和概率方法 statistics and probabilistic methods to
生成真正的声音 generate what sounds would actually be
在运行时和这两个系统中播放 played at runtime and those two systems
这些都是创作流程 together the kind of that authoring flow
与系统结合在一起 with the system together
发出你听到的声音 produce the the sounds that you hear
这些是针对不同的生物群系 and these were for the different biomes
你你移动是因为 that you you move because there's
种类繁多，是的 tremendous variety in there yeah
当然，我们得到了各种各样的食物 absolutely so uh the variety that we got
是 was
就像你说的那样 uh as you as you suggested on these
不同的生物群系，所以我们实际上 different biomes and so we actually
编写一个单独的excel电子表格 authored an individual excel spreadsheet
对于每一个生物群系 for each biome and each
电子表格中 spreadsheet contained
你知道所有可能发生的事 you know a list of all the possible
听起来 sounds
在每个声音中，它实际上就像 and within each sound it's actually like
一个我们实际拥有的群体 a group or grouping we actually have
个人嗯 individual um
这些声音本身的多样性 variety for those sounds itself so a
伯德可能有5到10个 bird may actually have five to ten
不同的 different
可能会播放的片段 uh clips that might play
但是表面上看，这背后的逻辑 but uh ostensibly the logic behind it
驱动它的是一样的 that's driving it uh is the same um and
我们随机选择了 so we just randomized the selection of
这些是在运行时，这样你 those at runtime and so that way you
你不会口腔疲劳的 don't you don't get this oral fatigue
那。 that
我们本来是相遇和善良的 we originally were encountering and kind
注意到的 of noticing
嗯 um
但你也让它足够简单 but you also make it simple enough so
设计师不一定要喜欢 that the designer doesn't have to like
指定每一行或 specify each and every single line or
每一个声音，什么时候该发出 every single sound and when it should
玩，所以它抽象出你绝对 play so it abstracts out you definitely
失去一些控制，但是 lose some of that control but the
系统的灵活性使得它如此 flexibility of the system makes it such
你不会错过的，你不会错过的 that you don't miss it you don't miss
失去了灵活性 that losing that flexibility right right
那像这样糟糕的事情呢 how about things like um that can suck
很多时候你知道，比如 up a lot of time you know things like
人物身上的脚印或福利 footsteps or foley on the characters
诸如此类的东西你有什么 things like that did you have anything
这样就加快了速度 for that that sort of sped things up
是的，我的意思是有一种混合 yeah i mean there's kind of a mix uh
很多现有的技术 a lot of the existing technology that we
已经很好地融合了吗 had uh integrated well enough with with
音频 audio
我们做了一些事情 there were some things that we did with
的脚步, footsteps where
实际上是我们的一些技术艺术家 uh some of our tech artists actually
一般创建一个允许的工具 generally created a tool that allowed
动画器自动标记的位置 animators to automatically tag where
脚步声开始了，又结束了 footsteps began and ended or a foot
锁定确实发生了 locking actually happened and so that
这样我们就知道了脚步声的时间 way we had the timing of the footstep
下来 down
不是所有的动画，但是很多 for not all animations but many of them
具有发出声音的灵活性 with the flexibility that a sound
设计师可以进入动画，然后 designer could go into the animation and
改变的时候 change when
那扇窗是什么，意味着什么 what that window was and what that meant
它是否减少了很多开销 was it eliminated a lot of the overhead
一个人必须离开 of having an individual having to go
放入这些文件，并标记每一个 into those files and tag every
单独一个，因为动画师 individual one because an animator just
在他们做的时候做 doing it while they're doing their
正常的动画工作是可以的 normal animation work was able to
把它作为流程的一部分 kind of add that as part of their flow
所以即使没有 and so immediately even without
一个声音设计师进去了 a sound designer going in and kind of
将窗口更改为确切的 changing the windows to be exactly what
他们想让你听到最初的声音 they wanted you had the initial sound of
脚步声响起，然后是奔跑 uh footsteps happening and then at run
我们还有时间 time we have
基本上是动态的 basically dynamic um
一个动态的理解有多重 a dynamic understanding of how heavy a
可能是脚步声，等等 footstep might be and so all that
信息加上uh的类型 information combined with the type of uh
玩家所处的动作或动画 action or animation that the player is
目前做 currently doing
进入音响系统 goes into the sound system and
在这种情况下Brad或者是音效设计师 brad in this case or the sound designers
在这种情况下 in this case have
这并不复杂，但是 um this kind of not complicated but like
一个关于做什么的健壮而详细的矩阵 a robust and detailed matrix of what to
玩的时候就这样跟所有的人在一起了 play at that time and so with all the
提供的信息 information that's provided from the
引擎 engine to
到声音引擎，我们可以得到这个 to the sound engine we can we get this
多样性和这种丰富的背景 variety and this rich kind of context
还有另一件事 and and then actually the other thing
值得注意的是，它刚刚开始 worth noting there is it started just
对于脚步和只是 for footsteps and and just
我的意思是节省了几个月 doing that i mean saved months and
个月的 months of
实现者的时间到了 time for an implementer
然后我们就可以利用这一点 and then we were able to leverage that
同样的系统也可以处理所有的 same system to also handle all of the
福利，你知道的，就是衣服 the foley and you know just clothing
运动也是为了运动，所以我们 movement for locomotion as well so we
基本上可以卸载 basically were able to offload
我的意思是，你知道可能会发生什么 i mean you know probably what would have
60%到70%的 been 60 to 70 percent of all of our
所有运动的动画标记 animation tagging of all the locomotion
只要让动画师标记在哪里 just by having the animators tag where
脚需要锁定地形 the feet needed to lock onto terrains
不管怎样，很有帮助，尤其是 anyway yeah helpful especially yeah with
你可以穿各种不同的衣服 all the different outfits you can put on
诸如此类的事情，所以必须交换 and things like that so having to swap
所有的福利，呃 all that foley out um how about the
战斗动画有时可以 combat animations those can sometimes
也会占用很多时间 take up a lot of time too
是的，那就是我们最后做的 yeah that was uh what we ended up doing
为战斗而战的是程序员 for combat is a programmer
给了我们一个脚本 gave us a script
我们在整个项目中都保持着 that we maintain through the project and
那真的很棒，因为 that was really great because
基本上剧本是在看 basically the script was looking at the
预测每场战斗的结果 predicted outcomes of every combat
互动，什么时候 interaction so when
你会被谁和 you were going to get blocked by who and
什么武器，当你要打 what weapon when you were going to hit
他们和什么武器等等 them and how what weapon etc and so
而不是我们去标记每一个 rather than us having to tag every
动画我们只是维持 animation we just kind of maintain the
脚本允许我们直接走 script that allowed us to just go
穿过，好吧，这是这是 through and okay well here's here's the
阻挡武士刀，如果武士刀 block for the katana and if the katana
是打 is hitting
这个家伙，我们想放这个声音 uh this guy we want this sound to play
如果他是向上一击 if he's hitting him in an upward strike
相对于向下打击，我们想要这些 versus a downward strike we want these
如果他被屏蔽了就放这声音 sounds to play if he's getting blocked
用带尖刺的盾牌或是厚重的盾牌 by a spiked shield or a heavy shield we
想要播放这些声音，所以是这样的 want these sounds to play so it was this
对我们来说是一个很好的集中地 really great centralized place for us to
能够把所有的数据都放进去 be able to put all the data in for all
战斗互动，而不是拥有 combat interactions rather than having
进入每一个动画擦洗 to go into every single animation scrub
通过删除事件 through drop the uh drop the events
另一件很棒的事是 and the other really great thing about
这是因为它具有预测性 this is because it was a predictive
我们能够启动的系统 system we were actually able to start
我们的音效稍微早了一点 our sound effects just a hair early i
我想我们可以抵消它 think we we could offset it i think we
偏移了60毫秒 offseted it by 60 milliseconds and so
这让我们不仅要给予 that actually gave us not only to give
我们在我们的 us a little bit of a of a head in our
我们可以设计音效，但是 sound effects that we could design but
这也让战斗感更加强烈 it also just made the combat feel
更活泼，因为声音是 snappier because the sound was was just
难以辨认的数量 the indecipherable amounts uh
比实际早 earlier than than the actual
行动本身 action itself
嗯很有趣 huh interesting
我们来谈谈音乐吧 um let's turn to music uh for a bit here
嗯 um
好分数听起来真的很合适 great score sounds really great uh fits
然后告诉我你知道的 in there well and tell me about you know
你是怎么找到你的作曲家的 how you found your composers and uh how
这个过程很有效 that process worked uh yeah well we
像brad一样开始我们的作曲家搜索 started our composer search like brad
很早就说过了 said pretty early on and
我们一开始是在找 uh we were looking initially i mean
显然是为了找到合适的作曲家 obviously for the right composer for the
项目但 project but
最理想的是找一个有 ideally looking for somebody who had
日本音乐的背景 this background in japanese music or
我在拍有日本人的电影 working on films that had this japanese
审美，这就引出了我们的两个 aesthetic so that led us to our two
作曲家umabayashi和Alan composers shigeru umabayashi and alan
ishkari ishkari
我们让他们开始了 and we got them started
我不知道，也许几年前吧 i don't know maybe a couple years before
我们发货 we shipped
为游戏写音乐只是放而已 writing music for the game just putting
一起吃一些糖果 some sweets together
我只是想好好了解一下 and just getting a good idea of the the
游戏的声音将如何发展 sound of the game how it's going to
当你在岛上探险的时候 sound when you're exploring the island
在战斗中听起来会是什么样子 what it's going to sound like in combat
你知道 you know
日本人有多少审美 how much of the japanese the aesthetic
我们需要在那里工作吗 do we need to work in there versus the
好莱坞配乐美学 hollywood score aesthetic
(音乐) [Music]
你知道游戏的最终结果 you know the final result in the game
很明显，如果你扮演鬼魂 obviously if you played ghost of
对马岛是一个非常大的 tsushima you know it's a very large
开放世界游戏的玩家有很多 open world game the player has a lot of
做自由代理 free agency to do
他们想做什么就做什么 whatever they'd like whenever they'd
就像他们喜欢某些人一样 like however they'd like some people
可能会潜入敌人的营地 might sneak into an enemy encampment
其他人可能会 other people might
从前门跑过去 run right through the front door
挥舞的剑只是提醒大家 swinging swords just alerting everybody
所以我们需要把音乐 and so we need to take that music that
我们记录 we recorded
让它适当地缩放到 and get it to scale appropriately to
不管玩家是怎么玩游戏的 however a player is playing the game
为了做到这一点，我们建立了一个系统 and to do that we put a system together
叫做音乐邂逅系统和 called the music encounter system and
本质上，这是一个以州为基础的系统 essentially it's a state-based system
它有很多不同的 that has a bunch of different
音乐的强度，我们 intensities of music within it and we're
看看游戏中的一些标准 looking at some criteria from the game
也就是之间的距离 namely the distance between
玩家和任何附近的敌人 the player and any uh nearby enemies and
这些敌人的意识状态 the awareness states of those enemies
所以当你越来越接近的时候 and so as you're getting closer or
远离那些敌人 further from those enemies and as
它们不是变多了就是变少了 they're becoming either more or less
我知道你是我们的目标 aware of you the player we're scaling
那音乐上下起伏，从 that music up and down uh starting with
你知道光探索者的音乐可能 you know light explorer music that might
玩，如果你只是 play if you're just
在岛上闲逛，你知道的 wandering around the island you know
体验寿司之美 experiencing the beauty of sushima uh
然后可能会越来越多 and then it might get more and more
你越靠近就越紧张 tense and intense as you get closer to
敌人的营地，然后与之交战 an enemy encampment and then engage with
那些 those
战斗中的敌人很有趣 uh enemies in combat interesting
所以 so
这对系统来说是个挑战 often that a challenge with systems like
这是两者之间的过渡 that is the transitioning between the
用不同的音乐来制作 various sections of music to make it
听起来很自然，就像在游戏中一样 sound natural which it does in the game
你是怎么做到的 how did you how do you approach that
挑战，你知道的 challenge yeah well that's you know
这是这是很大一部分 that's that's sort of a big part of the
处理得当，我们得到了不同 process right we get the the different
强度降低了，但是我们怎么 intensities down but then yeah how do we
顺利地在他们之间穿梭，然后我们花钱 get between those smoothly and we spend
我们的编辑花了很多时间 a lot of time or our editors really
多花时间 spend a lot of time
挖掘材料，那是 digging through the material that was
记录 recorded
对于这些 for these
遇到系统提示 encounter system cues
把它们放在一起 and putting together
成百上千种不同的 hundreds maybe thousands of different uh
过渡片段会让我们从 transition pieces that'll get us from
每个强度对应另一个强度 each intensity to the other intensity
就像所有不同的组合 like all all the different combinations
强度可以回到 of intensities that can go back and
出来 forth
啊 aah
(音乐) [Music]
所以我们花了很多时间，真的 so we we put in a lot of time uh really
我只是想确认一下有没有扣好扣子 just making sure that that's buttoned up
很紧，我想在比赛结束前 tight and i'd say by the end of the game
天啊，在我们明智的计划中，我认为这是 gosh in our wise project i think it's
差不多有2000种不同 something close to 2000 different
转换规则 transition rules
决定我们如何从一块碎片中得到 uh determining how we get from one piece
把音乐传给另一个人只是为了使它成为 of music to another just to make it as
尽可能平滑 smooth as possible
哇巨大 wow huge
用 and in terms of um
确保音乐是合适的 making sure that the music's appropriate
一直有多少种不同的 all the time how many different types of
你有没有混合，你有没有混合 mixes did you have did you did you mix
你是怎么得到音乐的 from stems or how did you get the music
让作曲家把它写进去 for the composer to get it into that
所以它是如此的合适 form so it was fitting so well
我们从作曲者那里得到样带 so we get a demo back from the composer
我们与作曲家合作 we work with the composers on their
作业的大部分 assignments either for a bigger part of
游戏或为一种 the game or for a
我们的音乐邂逅系统 system for our music encounter system uh
我们把它送到它该去的地方 we get it to where it has
我们觉得我们需要融入 what we feel we need to to fit in the
我们要做的那个特定部分的游戏 game for that particular part we'll take
我们会去录那个小样 that demo we'll go and record it
可能是一堆不同的录音 probably a bunch of different recording
也就是管弦乐，但是我们会 sessions namely orchestral but we'll
我也做了很多独奏录音 also do a lot of uh soloist recording as
给我们提供我们需要的材料 well to give us uh the material that we
编辑方面的需求 need on the editorial side
然后在专业工具中混合 that's then mixed in pro tools
这些混合器非常庞大且笨重 those mixes are very large and unwieldy
所以我们的工程团队对其进行了削减 so our engineering team whittles that
变成更少的茎，但是 down into a smaller number of stems but
仍然可能 still probably
编辑可能会用到的20到40个词干 20 to 40 stems that an editor might use
然后我们开始演奏 and then we go through we start playing
这个游戏 the game
我们知道我们需要这种音乐 we know we need this type of music here
这种类型的编辑可能没有 this type of edit there maybe no
这个版本可能只有打击乐 percussion in this version maybe only
这里面有日本乐器 the japanese instrumentation in this
版本和分配工作订单给 version and assign work orders out to
我们的编辑团队 our team of editors
然后他们就开始 and they just start you know going
在专业工具的基础上 through on a stem level uh in pro tools
给我们弄点东西 just getting us the little bits and
我们需要为这些音乐谱曲 pieces of music that we need uh to score
剩下的比赛 the the rest of the game
所以让我们深入研究一些具体的声音 so let's dig into some specific sounds
系统。 and systems um
我想是其中之一 i think one of the
这款游戏的机制非常棒 the really great mechanics in this game
你知道这是一个巨大的开放世界吗 is that you know it's a huge open world
游戏，但你需要知道去哪里 game but you need to know where to go as
你从一个任务到另一个任务 you go from mission to mission and
有一个引导风 there's that guiding wind thing where
你知道你可以顺着方向 you know you can follow the direction of
风和树叶都在吹 the wind and the leaves are blowing a
如果你需要，你可以确定方向 certain direction if you need to you can
打开你的控制器 you know flick up on your controller on
垫在那里，你会你会得到 the pad there and you'll you'll get the
听起来有点失控，我只是好奇 sound out of controller i'm just curious
你知道这是控制器的使用 um you know that was a use of controller
演讲者 speakers
你是怎么想到这个的 how did you come up with that
是的，我是说引导风是 yeah i mean the the guiding wind was
有趣的是，就像你说的 interesting because i mean like you said
这是一个非常独特的机制 it's such a unique mechanic and it's
很适合做导航和 great to make things like navigation and
寻径对我们来说更具有叙事性 path finding more diegetic um for us it
是一个巨大的挑战，因为 was a huge challenge because
风是游戏的重要组成部分 wind was a really big part of the game
在很多方面都有 in so many ways there was the
你知道的环境风 environmental wind which you know the
风总是在游戏中吹 wind was always blowing in the game so
总是有运动，因为 there was always movement because that
真的是艺术的核心方向吗 was really a core direction from art
方向和创意方向 direction and creative directions that
这个世界必须永远活着 the world must be alive and always
移动，所以我们不得不面对 moving so we had to kind of contend with
周围的风，然后我们有 the kind of ambient wind and then we had
这额外的风有点 this additional wind that was kind of
处理导航，很明显 handling the navigation so obviously
对游戏玩法至关重要 super critical to to gameplay um
所以我们设计了一个系统 so we designed a system that was uh
有三种声音可以传播 three sounds that kind of traveled along
样条在你的方向 splines like in the direction of your
客观的，它们都是 objective and they were each
独立意识的那种 independently aware of the kind of the
他们正在旅行的亚生物群 sub biome that they were traveling
任何时候都可以通过，这样我们就可以 through at any time so we could get
这些独特的阵风是基于 these really unique wind gusts based on
他们所经过的地方 on what they were traveling through
这是原版的内容 um and that was on the original version
那是鬼 of ghost that was
为数不多的几个我发不出来的音之一 one of very very few sounds i can't
我也没想过别的，但它是 actually think of any others but it was
这是我们很少听到的声音之一 one of very few sounds that we actually
接通扬声器控制器，然后 put through the speaker controller and
你知道扬声器控制器的 you know the the speaker controller for
我 me
我把它当作你的生活频道吗 is i i treat it like an lfe channel you
要知道你是有节制地使用它 know you use it sparingly
这才是真正有意义的 uh where it really makes sense for for
游戏体验，在这种情况下 the gameplay experience and in this case
就像你知道的，很明显 it was like well you know it's obviously
这对玩家来说是非常私人的 very personal to the player it's
你知道他们是 something that you know they're
我们想让他们听到并知道这一点 we want them to hear and to know that
它就在那里，所以我们把 it's there so that's kind of why we put
它通过扬声器控制器I it through the speaker controller i
想想什么是创造性的，为什么是这样 think what worked creatively and why it
工作得很好 worked so well
是嗯 is um
你知道这背后的故事 you know kind of the the fiction behind
引导潮流的是，它有点 the guiding wind is that it it kind of
游戏中首先出现的是杜松子酒类 first appears in the game with gin kind
的 of
问他父亲的灵魂他如何 asking the spirit of his father how he
能找到他叔叔然后这风 can find his uncle um and then this wind
这样可以帮助区分它 blows and so um to help differentiate it
从环保的风啊 from the environmental wind uh
Josh Lord是我们的高级音效设计师 josh lord our senior sound designer and
我自己去了霸凌室，然后 myself went down into our bully room and
我有我有一个巨大的 i got i i have an immense
长笛和哨子收藏，因为我 flute and whistle collection because i
有虐待狂朋友总是买我的钱吗 have sadistic friends that always buy me
笛子和哨子，所以我们去 flutes and whistles so we went down to
整个房间，我们录制了 the uh fully room and we recorded just
我每一场都吹得很糟糕 me blowing poorly through every single
一个是得到这些有趣的奇怪的东西 one just to get these interesting weird
调性元素的风而种 tonal elements of of wind but kind of
有一点人类的声音 having a little bit of a human sound to
它和乔什带走了所有那些又好又好 it and josh took all those and and kind
创造了那种标志性的 of created that very iconic kind of
调性元素使得 tonal uh element that that makes the
引导风的感觉和声音独特 guiding wind feel and sound unique
然后是导演的剪辑 and then i think for the director's cut
在playstation 5上的最后一件事 on the playstation 5 the last thing that
我们添加了真正增加了很多的是我们 we added which really adds a ton is we
有定位音吗 had the positional sound we had the
声音在控制器扬声器，然后 sound in the controller speaker and then
对于ps5，我们添加了位置触觉 for the ps5 we added a positional haptic
这样你就能感觉到风了 so you can actually feel the wind
在控制器中行进 traveling through the controller in the
你应该去的方向 direction that you're supposed to go
嗯很有趣 huh interesting
这是游戏中另一个有用的东西 so another thing in the game that helps
指引你走向事物的是那只金色的鸟 guide you to things is that golden bird
你知道，它有这样一个 which you know and it has such a
独特的声音，所以一旦你听到 distinctive sound so as soon as you hear
你知道你在四处寻找 that you know you're looking around for
看看它会把你带向何方 it to see where it's going to lead you
我只是好奇你知道的是 to i'm just curious you know is that
原产于日本的鸟，你从哪里得到的 bird native to japan where did you get
你的鸟类录音 your bird recordings
嗯,所以 um so
这是 that that's
这个故事很有趣，因为这是 it's a funny story because this is
实际上，一个例子 actually uh an example of
声音驱动内容所以我实际上 sound driving content um so i actually
在斯里兰卡录下了这只鸟 recorded that bird in sri lanka
嗯 um
这是。 and it's a
一只黑颈黄鹂，真漂亮 a black nape oriole it's this beautiful
黄色的鸟有一点你知道的黑色 yellow bird with a little you know black
脖子 neck
我当时在斯里兰卡，我就去了 and um so i was in sri lanka and i'd set
拿起我的麦克风录下这个 up my my mics just recording this
美丽的丛林 beautiful jungle
当我再听的时候，我 and when i was listening back to it i
听到那只鸟的叫声，它真的 heard that bird and it was really
这美妙的标志性声音 just this beautiful iconic sound and it
被隔离得很好，所以我可以 was well isolated so i could actually
把它从录音中提取出来 extract it from the recording
和 and
当我们开始谈论 when we were starting to talk about the
引导鸟和它应该是什么 guidebird and what it should actually be
嗯 um
显然，我们想让它看起来更有视觉效果 we obviously wanted it to be visually
有趣的是，玩家可以看到 interesting so that the player could see
它知道这是一只特别的鸟，我 it know oh this is a special bird that i
需要跟随 need to follow
对我来说，这也很重要 and to me it was also important we have
来 to
找点我们能找的东西 you know get something where we can
实际上 actually
有对应的读音吗 have sounds for it so we identified i
想 think like
六只不同的鸟 six different birds that were visually
有趣的是在日本也有 interesting that do appear in japan
其中之一就是黑小睡 and one of those was the black naped
所以我非常努力地游说 orioles so i i lobbied really hard of
我们可以用这只鸟吗 like can we just please use this bird
因为我有一些很棒的声音 because i've got some great sounds for
它很独特，很突出 it it's very like unique and stands out
反对你所知的繁茂 against you know the the lush
大多是绿色的景观，甚至是 mostly green landscape or even the the
雪景，我们在 snowy landscapes uh that we had in
Sushima，幸运的是 sushima so uh fortunately that one and
这就是这就是我们最后的结局 that's that's kind of how we ended up
和那只鸟 with that bird
有趣，另一只鸟在叫 interesting and the other bird sounds
另一只鸟听起来 the other bird sounds uh
大部分都是在日本录制的 most of them were recorded in japan um
就像我之前提到的，我们有一些 like i mentioned before we had some
日本工作室帮了我们很多 japan studio help us out with a lot of
,嗯 that um
在前期制作阶段，我们有一个 early on in pre-production we had a
小团队旅行 small team travel to
到日本，包括对马岛等等 to japan including tsushima and so i
给我们的动画一个录音机 gave a recorder to our animation
比利局长和我都没想到 director billy and i wasn't expecting
他没有得到任何有用的东西，但是 him to get anything useful but
令人惊讶的是，他做到了 surprisingly he did
然后我设法去了日本 uh and then i managed to go to japan for
圣诞节和新年前后的10天 10 days around christmas and new year's
在 in
我想是2017年 2017 i think
基本上就是策划了一场旋风 and just basically planned a whirlwind
旅行只是去地方和记录 trip to just go to places and record
特定的物种，所以你知道 specific species so you know going to
北海道，这样我们可以得到红色 hokkaido so that we can get the red
鹤冠，因为他们要 crane crowns because they're going to be
在游戏中，我们需要那种声音 in the game and we need that sound it's
非常有代表性的大天鹅 very iconic and getting whooper swans
还有我们结束的那些猴子 and getting um the monkeys that we ended
在宜家岛上度过的 up having on ikea island for for the
导演剪辑，所以这是 director's cut so it was it was an
去日本旅游真是太棒了 amazing experience to get to visit japan
我只是想亲临现场听一听，但是 and just to be there and hear it but
那是那是大部分 that was that was where most of the
野生动物是怎么来的 wildlife came from and then i guess
有几只鸟 there were a handful of birds
他们要求特定的物种 where they asked for specific species
我们没有，所以我实际上 that we did not have and so i actually
我通过倾听创造了这些声音 created those with my voice by listening
得到的样本 to samples actually getting samples of
一些鸟把他们拖慢了，就像 some birds slowing them way down like
三个八度，然后演奏出来 three octaves and then performing those
放慢版本，然后加速 slowed down versions and then speeding
打开我的录音 up my recordings of them
(音乐) [Music]
他们他们已经足够好了 they were they were good enough for the
他们骗不了我 game uh they wouldn't fool an
鸟类学家,但 ornithologist but
呃 uh
似乎没有人注意到 nobody seemed to have noticed
有趣的 interesting
游戏中的马是这样的 um so the horse in the game sort of this
我找到了你的忠实伴侣 your constant companion i found you know
当我玩这个游戏的时候，你知道的 as i played the game you know developed
对我的马的情感依恋 this emotional attachment to my horse
你知道的是我的同伴 you know is my companion um
它可能不是 and it's probably not a
巧合的是，感觉就像 coincidence that it feels like a
性格能让你多跟你说话 character can you talk more to uh you
知道马的声音是怎么来的吗 know how how the sound of the horse came
在一起，是的，我的意思是我会，我会通过的 together yeah i mean i'll i'm gonna pass
这个马上交给亚当，因为 this off to adam in a minute because
我说的太多了，除了马 i've been talking too much but the horse
对我来说真的很有趣 to me is really interesting
嗯,因为 uh because
几乎每一种声音都能触动它 it was touched by almost every sound
这个项目的设计师，我也 designer on the project um and it also i
我觉得这听起来很棒 think it sounds great and
你知道吗，我觉得部分原因是 you know i think part of that is just
我们工作的过程和方式 the process and the way that we work you
懂得什么才是真正珍贵的 know nothing is really precious to
我们都想让他变得伟大 anybody we all just want to make great
所以我们 stuff and so we
我们从我找到一个天生的开始 we started with i found a natural
马术中心 horsemanship center uh
就在西雅图附近，原因是 up here near seattle and the reason that
我选择这个地方是因为 i chose this place was because it was
远离交通，他们没有 far away from traffic um they didn't
射杀他们的马，这样我们就 shoot their horses so we're you know
要让马在自然表面上运动 going to get horse on natural surfaces
你知道我们做了什么吗 which was very much you know what we
我们想要这场游戏发生吗 were wanting for this game taking place
在封建的日本 in in feudal japan
所以我们在很多 so we recorded that horse on lots of uh
很多表面，然后我录制 lots of surfaces and then i recorded
里面有一些新娘和大头钉之类的东西 some bridal and tack and stuff from in
这家伙的马鞍 saddles from this uh guy
然后我们最后和 um and then we ended up working with
索尼在圣地亚哥的playstation工作室 sony uh playstation studio in san diego
他们还录了很多 and they recorded a bunch more um
马鞍和缰绳，乔什拿走了 saddles and bridles and josh took that
然后他开始在马身上工作 and then he started working on the horse
然后我们把它扔给了亚当的团队 and then we threw it over to adam's team
就像我说的，我认为 and like i said i think
那里的大多数声音设计师都辞职了 most of the sound designers there ended
我正在做，所以我不想让你 up working on it so i don't want you to
把它拿走，然后谈谈 take it away and talk about
你们做了那么多了不起的工作 all the great work you guys did
是的，所以我想说as yeah so um yeah i was going to say as
这是一个非常合作的努力 well it was a very collaborative effort
马我想当我们当我第一次 the horse i think when we when i first
来做我们布拉德要做的项目 came on the project we brad came down to
嗯 um
我们在圣马特奥的工作室 to our studio here in in san mateo and
我们玩了整个游戏 uh we kind of played through the game
并确认这匹马是其中一匹 and identified the horse as one of the
主角们显然会 main characters is obviously going to
花很多时间和马在一起 spend a lot of time with the horse um
我最喜欢的一件事就是 and one of the one of the great things i
的意思是 mean
我加入这个项目大概有一年了 i came on the project probably a year or
所以在游戏发行之前 so before the game shipped and there was
已经 already
游戏看起来已经很不错了 the game it already looked
听起来很不错 and sounded pretty good
嗯，那里已经有东西了，比如 um so there was already stuff there like
布拉德说他录了一匹马，然后他们 brad said he recorded a horse and they
有这么多内容，所以这只是一个案例 had all this content so it's just a case
打磨的过程 of polishing it really
我们只是 we just
你知道，我想花钱 wanted to you know spend
花点时间 uh spend some time
让它听起来尽可能的好 making it sound as good as possible
我知道 i know
Rob castro，我们的声音设计师之一 rob castro one of our sound designers
练习呼吸和所有的 worked on the the breathing and all the
我想他花了几次 vocalizations i think he spent a couple
做了几个月 of months doing that
和 and
我研究了一堆脚步声 i worked on a bunch of footsteps
表面 surfaces
很多甜味剂 lots of sweeteners
我想 um i think
Mike nederquel也是我们的声音之一 mike nederquel as well one of our sound
设计师们还设计了一些步骤 designers also worked on some footstep
还有一些呼吸的东西 stuff and some breathing stuff so
嗯，是的，很多人都在 uh yeah a lot of people worked on the
马嗯 horse um
是的，只是这是真的是真的 yeah and it's just it was a is a really
重要的角色，我认为我们 important character and i think we
想要花费 wanted to spend
花了不少时间才弄好 a decent amount of time getting it right
我想我玩过 um i think i had played
另一个游戏 another game
最近在我工作的时候 uh kind of recently while i was working
虽然我不太喜欢 on it which i wasn't too keen on the
马的声音很新鲜 horse sound so it was kind of fresh in
我的思想就像你知道我想要我 my mind is like you know i want to i
想让这匹马听起来好听点 want to make this horse sound good um
你知道的，所以我们只是我们只是花了 you know so yeah we just we just spent a
花了很多时间清理它 bunch of time with it um cleaned up
布拉德的录音已经响起 brad's recordings which already sounded
很好，刚刚润色了一下 great and just uh yeah just polished it
真的 really
显然我只是想回到 uh apparently i just want to get back to
从系统的角度来看 you for a bit in terms of systems
因为它出现在 because it's come up you know in the
背景就像，哦，有一个 background it's like oh there was a
这个系统对应这个系统 system for that system for this it's
这么大的世界，你来了吗 such a huge world uh did you come up
用任何系统来处理 with any systems uh for dealing with
混响和第一反射什么的 reverb and first reflections or anything
这样可以节省时间，因为我 like that to help save time because i
想象一下，这可能是a imagine that could have been you know a
一个人的全职工作 full-time job for somebody for quite a
然而，嗯，是的，这是一个 while uh yeah and it kind of was for a
有一点，我们实现了 little bit um yeah we implemented our
自己定制的 own bespoke uh
闭塞性阻塞的合并 amalgamation of occlusion obstruction
呃，也是一种早期的简化 uh as well as a kind of simplified early
反射系统 reflection system
呃 uh
谢天谢地，我们有一个延迟插件 thankfully we had a delay plug-in that
来自pg - pd - sound还是是的 came from pg pd sound or was it yeah it
来自 came from
索尼欧洲CSG，是的，它来自 sony europe csg yeah so it came from
来自一个伙伴 from a partnered
索尼的团队让我们能够 team over in sony which enabled us to
通过提供一些信息来提供 provide by providing some information in
游戏如 the game such as
某些面在基数上有多远 how far are certain surfaces in cardinal
相对于玩家的方向 directions relative to the player
呃 uh
我们可以延迟整个声音和播放 we could delay entire sounds and play
他们就像一个基本上一个非常 them back as like a basically a very
早期便宜相对较早便宜 cheap early well relatively early cheap
有点像 and kind of
简化了早期的反思然后我们的 simplified early reflection and then our
阻塞阻塞系统 obstruction occlusion system that was
一些我们 something that we
我们最终探索了几个不同的 we ended up exploring a couple different
选项 options
但它完全是内部的 uh but it was entirely uh internal in
根据我们提出的条件，我们结束了 terms of what we came up with we ended
继续使用简化的光线投射 up going with simplified raycasts that
只是饲料 just feed
一些信息是基于 some sort of some information based on
它们击中的物质和距离 the material that they hit and distance
再给音响系统加点逻辑 and a bit more logic to the sound system
然后布拉德可以稍微调整一下 and then brad was able to kind of tweak
相应的参数 parameters accordingly
但这是任何一种 but that the the thing with any sort of
这样的系统，因为它有点 system like that because it is kind of
当你不这样做的时候，就会变得很复杂 inherently complicated when you don't
真的有。 really have um
任何形式的正式结构 any sort of formal structure to it uh it
实际上这需要很多次迭代 took a lot of iteration it took actually
相当长的一段时间，比如 a decent amount of time like um
不一定是全职，但是 not necessarily full time but
大概花了18个星期 it probably took about 18 weeks
真正深入研究我们最后 to really hone in on what we finally
以船运结束 ended up shipping
还有一些你知道的小的 and there were still you know small
这里和那里的调整 tweaks here and there
需要考虑的完美因素 perfect considerations to take into
账户 account
和 and and
以及需要的各种调整 and kind of various tuning that needed
继续，呃，持续 to go on uh continuously
嗯，那些是那些是那种 um so those are the those are the kind
我们看了两件事 of two things that we looked at on the
混响边我们不太喜欢 reverb side we we don't really do too
从技术上讲，我们基本上 much uh technologically uh we mostly
想想什么是合适的 just figure out what is the appropriate
混响播放任何给定的声音和 reverb to play for any given sound and
然后我们设置它，然后我相信 then we set that and then i believe the
休息是由声音引擎处理的 rest is taken care of in sound engine
那么你怎么算出 and so how are you figuring out what the
适当的混响是哦，很好 appropriate reverb is oh that's a good
问题是，嗯，大概有两个 question so uh there's kind of like two
图层，首先是 layers to it uh first of all with the
环境声音管理器 ambient sound manager we'd actually
建立生物群落的概念 establish this concept of biomes that
是 are
与声音生物群落的内在联系不是 inherently tied to sound biomes not
必然是环境生物群系 necessarily the environmental biomes and
所以根据你所在的声音生物群 so based on which sound biome you're in
你得到了什么样的混响 uh you derive what sort of reverb
通常你会用 generally you would you would use
但是你知道这个案子 um however you know this case is where
比如，你想让设计师 like uh you want the designer to
重写或者能够重写 override or be able to override that
混响值，在那种情况下 reverb value and so in that case uh the
声音设计师有能力 sound designer has the ability to just
插入一个音量，然后说好 stick in a volume and say okay the
这里的环境是这个 environment here is going to be this
特定的混响 particular reverb
我们在很多地方都用到了 and so we use that a lot of places
我们有室内设计 where we had interiors
还有在两者之间的过渡 and also the transition in between um
从外面到里面 coming you know from the outside to the
里面，因为你你想要那种 inside uh because you you want that kind
具有过渡效应 of transitional effect
所以 and so
这是一种程序的混合 it's kind of this mixture of procedural
呃 uh
加上这幅地图的画 plus painting of this map which was the
良好的生物群落 sound biomes
然后由 and then bespoke markup done by
个人声音设计师和 individual sound designers and
实现者 implementers
只是为了得到正确的效果 just to get the right effect
嗯 um
程序到你知道的执行 the the procedure to you know implement
作为一个单独的体积是相当快的 as an individual volume was fairly quick
很简单，但考虑到规模 and easy but given the scale of the
你提到的世界太大了 world as you mentioned it's so big it
我去了吗 did take the
这是我们反复做的事情 it was something that we did iteratively
在整个项目过程中 over the course of the project
我们既存状况的一个好处 the one benefit of our pre-existing
科技就是这样 technology is that a lot of that
基线技术就在那里 baseline tech was there so that
信息是我们可以获取的东西 information was something we could take
贯穿整个过程的优势 advantage of throughout the course of
这个项目 the project
嗯，我们把战斗的声音掩盖起来了 uh so we covered combat sounds a bit in
你的前期制作，但我很好奇 your pre-production but i'm curious
你知道 you know
在最终产品中 in the end product
你最后得到了什么，你知道的 uh what you ended up with and you know
你是如何到达那里的 how you got there
从一开始，什么什么 from uh from the beginning and what what
一路上你学得和我一样好 you learned along the way yeah well as i
提到哦 mentioned uh
你知道我们我们开始被禁足了 you know we we started super grounded um
我们一开始有很多 and and we started with a lot of
首先要做的是研究 research and so one of the first things
我们所做的是 that we did is we went there's actually
在贝尔维尤，吸盘拳在那里 in in bellevue where sucker punch is
实际上是一个日本人 located there's actually a japanese
居合道学校 iaido school
井合道是日本的剑术 iaido is is japanese swordsmanship and
所以我们找到了这个ido学校 so we found this ido school
我和我们的动画导演 and so myself and our animation director
去旁听一节课，结果 went uh to observe a class and it was
很好看，因为有 really neat to watch because there were
教授学生的大师 the masters teaching students
当学生们挥动他们的 and when the students would swing their
武士刀 katana
它发出了很大的噪音，当 it made a lot of noise and when the
大师们挥舞着武士刀 masters swung their katanas they were
几乎无声 virtually silent
很明显我们在做 and obviously we're making
我们不打算关注娱乐 entertainment we're not going to follow
现实在这种情况下使每个人 reality in that case and make everybody
他们打架的时候沉默 silent when they're fighting um
所以你知道这是从我们开始的 so you know it started with we we
我有一把武士刀和一把 um i actually got a katana and a
Wakazashi为自己做了部分 wakazashi made for myself partially for
有趣，部分是因为我知道我们 fun and partially because i knew that we
我们需要一些道具吗 were going to need some props for that
乔希的剑是空的 josh had a sword blank
我们实际上 we actually
跟我们的合伙人谈过了 talked to our partners down at
在圣地亚哥的Playstation上，他们发了 playstation in san diego and they sent
我们有一堆剑空弹 us a whole bunch of sword blanks
他们用过的战神 from god of war that they had used um
然后我们就开始了 and so then we just started you know
记录大量的信息来源 recording tons and tons of source
有些最后被用来 um some of it ended up being used for
战斗，其中一些最终被使用 combat some of it ended up being used
对于UI来说 for the ui um
但是，嗯，是的，它就像所有的东西 but uh but yeah so it like everything
否则就是这样 else it was this
非常长的迭代过程 very long iterative process where we
从某件事开始，但事实并非如此 started with something and it wasn't
很好，我们在此基础上继续努力 good and we built on it and we kept
不断迭代并完善它 iterating on it and kept polishing it
这是另一件被通过的事情 and it was another thing that got passed
有很多不同的设计师 around to a lot of different designers a
很多人都在做不同的工作 lot of people worked on different
组件 components
我想是mike niederquell和andres um i think mike niederquell and andres
Herrera是两个做了大部分工作的人 herrera were the two who did the bulk of
擦亮的工作，但我知道 the polish work but i know
亚当做了一些事，乔什也做了一些 adam did some stuff and josh did some
是的，确实是这样 stuff and um yeah it was definitely
另一件事是 another thing that was was very kind of
被很多人感动 touched by a lot of people
你知道肯定有和我们一样 you know there was definitely as as we
我们不仅在进行迭代吗 were iterating not only were we working
声音设计，还有 on the sound design but then also
试图 trying to
你知道，清理一下混音，因为 you know clean up the mix because there
是不是有些战斗很疯狂 were some battles that were crazy and
你周围的人都在打架 just people all around you fighting and
所以我们做了一些 so we were doing some
就像你知道的平移和过滤 like you know panning and filtering
基于方位角，所以你真的 based on the azimuth so you're really
只是听到你面前的事，但是 just hearing what's in front of you but
然后apoorva集成了一个额外的 then apoorva integrated an additional
我们称之为攻击的特征 feature for us that we call the attack
优先级，所以每个每个 priority and so each each uh
武器或敌人具有攻击优先权 weapon or enemy had an attack priority
我认为确实如此 and i think it was
如果是0，他们就没有进攻 if it was zero they're not attacking
任何人，他们没有针对任何人 anybody they're not targeting anybody if
这是他们正在攻击或瞄准的目标 it's one they're attacking or targeting
一个不是玩家的人 somebody that's not the player and if
他们的目标是玩家 it's two they're targeting the player
所以我们可以用它来 and so we were able to use that to also
进一步调整，这样你就知道了 further tune things so that you know if
有人在练习射击 somebody's just practicing shooting a
弓和箭会更安静 bow and arrow it's going to be quieter
甚至可能有一个不同的 or even potentially have a different
比他们进攻时的声音要大 sound than if they're attacking in
战斗，更不用说攻击玩家了 combat let alone attacking the player um
所有这些事情也真的 and so all of those things also really
帮助我们加入战斗 helped us kind of dial in combat and
让它听起来 make it sound
还不错，我觉得也许也许 decent and i think it was maybe maybe
我觉得更重要的是 uh even more important for i think
传说模式，因为有 legends mode because there's
就像传说模式把它带到下一个 like legends mode takes it to the next
水平的时候就会有 level when there's like the number of
攻击你的敌人 enemies that are attacking you
我们总是想确保 and uh we always want to make sure the
玩家被告知方向 player is informed of directionally
攻击从哪里来，所以他们 where is the attack coming from so they
知道该关注谁，因为谁 know who to focus on and because of the
那是一场混乱的战斗 chaos of that the combat that is in
传说模式有这种 legends mode um having this kind of
方向优先级或有一些a directional priority or having some a
表面上的攻击优先级给出 semblance of an attack priority gives
玩家的口型有点像a the player a bit more of a a like oral
该去哪里的提示 cue of where to go
所以我想这就是我 um and so i think that was mostly where
我看到了，或者我个人觉得很有用 i saw it or i found it personally useful
当我在玩游戏的时候 when i was playing the game yeah and
实际上，图例模式中的另一件事 actually the other thing in legends mode
与战斗相关的是剑 related to combat is the swords the
战斗声音是完全不同的 combat sounds are totally different as
就像 well like
当我们把事情做得很扎实时 while we kept things really grounded in
游戏主要为传奇模式的我们 the main game for legends mode we we
基本上就是完全越过了 basically just went completely over the
前 top
你知道所有的挥剑都是 um you know all the sword swings are
超级调性，还有很多 super tonal and there's a lot more
分层，然后根据稀有性 layers and then depending on the rarity
你的武器，我们添加更多的层 of your weapon we add even more layers
让它越来越多 and just make it more and more over the
所以我们肯定是如果 top so we were definitely if if
单人游戏中的战斗是 combat uh in the single player game was
更像是13个刺客非常接地气 more like uh 13 assassins very grounded
嗯，你知道 um you know the
传说模式中的战斗非常多 the combat in in legends mode was much
更像是太夸张了 more like just the total over-the-top
武侠片，我想我们 martial arts films and i think we
实际上用了一个叫 actually used one called um
呃崛起的传说是一种善良 uh rise of the legend as a a good kind
我们想要的东西太多了 of bar for just how much we were wanting
推动战斗的传奇模式很酷 to push combat in legends mode cool
我们还没讲到的一个方面是vo um one area we haven't touched on is vo
嗯 um
有没有有趣的挑战? any interesting challenges
我特别想到了这个 with that came up with that especially
在科维德时代是的，我是说 on during the age of kovid yeah i mean
那是那只是另一个 that was that was just another one where
我们面对着各国的高墙 we were up against the wall of countries
在我们试图关闭的时候 shutting down as we were trying to
记录我们所有的语言 record all of our languages
所以这真的是真的 so it was it was really really
对导演来说也是挑战 challenging um and even for directors
你知道有一些人 cut you know there was some people were
舒适的录音室录音 comfortable recording in the studios
其他人想要并且更喜欢记录 other people wanted and prefer to record
在家里 at home
所以你知道 and so you know it just
向我们的对话团队致敬 really hats off to our dialogue team and
我们的本地化团队因为你 our localization team because um you
我知道我玩过一些游戏，你可以 know i've played some games and you can
真的告诉我哦，那一定是 really tell like oh that must have been
在家里录的那条线 recorded at home at that line
是的，我想这并没有记录在 yeah i guess that wasn't recorded in the
工作室，尽管有你 studio and even though there was you
知道我们对话的大部分内容 know chunks of our dialogue that were
在家录制 recorded at home
我们的对话组刚刚做了一个 um our dialogue team just did such a
很好地掌握了它 fantastic job with mastering it that
这这真的很难分辨你是谁 it's it's really hard to tell so um you
我知道他们他们一直都做得很好 know they they've always done a great
乔布和我都很高兴 job and i'm really glad that we have
这样我就不用处理所有的了 them so i don't have to deal with all
那些头痛是因为我 those headaches because i i
我听说情况有多糟，但幸运的是我 i heard how bad it was but fortunately i
我不需要亲身经历 didn't really have to experience it
除了担心我们会不会 besides stressing out about if we were
我们会把所有的资产及时送到 gonna get all of our assets in time to
实际上我们的船期还是 actually make our ship dates or
差不多就是这样 something like that
很好，还有其他有趣的吗 great um so any other interesting
我错过的故事或方面 stories or aspects that i missed
我猜你知道其中一个 well i guess you know that one of the
我们谈论疯狂的事情 crazy things we talk about
在音乐方面有几件事 a couple things on the music side that i
我觉得你对这个项目很感兴趣 think are really cool about this project
是 are
我想在项目结束的时候 i think at the end of the project we
你录过八首歌吗 have recorded something like eight
不同的尺八玩家 different shakuhachi players
在这两场比赛的过程中 uh over the course of both games and all
非常壮观，但我真的认为 of them spectacular but i really think
你知道最后我们听到了你的声音 you know by the end we were hearing you
认识最优秀的人 know the cream of the crop of of
尺八玩家的天下哪是 shakuhachi players in the world which is
这是一件很特别的事 just a really special thing to
经验 experience
嗯，等等 um and and on sort of
Pl加上在the中的边 pl plus sides of being in the the
梦寐以求的世界 coveted world
选择传奇模式，不好意思不是 uh for uh legends mode or not sorry not
传奇模式的导演剪辑，当我们 legends mode the director's cut when we
我们在做额外的录音吗 were doing the extra recording
为了比赛的那一部分 uh for for that portion of the game
有一个星期我相信已经结束了 um there was a week where i believe over
我们记录的四天的过程 the course of four days we recorded in
中国。 china
日本，洛杉矶和纳什维尔 japan los angeles and nashville
这是我们永远不会拥有的 which is something we never would have
能在covid之前做到这一点是因为我们 been able to do before covid because we
会派人去录每段录音吗 would have sent a team to each recording
会议之间有一两个星期的间隔 session had a week or two in between
所以那是一种狂野 and uh so that was just kind of a wild
就像你知道的那样 like whoa like you know this would have
从未发生过 never happened
如果不是因为covid和 if it weren't for for covid and the
改进和有点虚拟 improvements and and sort of virtual
出席录音会议等 attendance to recording sessions so
嗯，就是那种狂野的东西 um just kind of kind of wild stuff that
发生在音乐方面是的，我是说我 happened on the music side yeah i mean i
我觉得有有很多故事 think there's there's so many stories
我们可以我们可以分享 that we could we could share that would
可能还要再花几个小时 probably take up another couple hours of
就像我们愉快的录音一样 just like fun recording sessions we had
还有我们以前用过的一些可笑的道具 and um just ridiculous props we used to
发出声音之类的 make sounds and all those kinds of
的事情 things
触觉学真的很有趣 haptics was that was a really fun
这对我们来说是个有趣的挑战 and interesting challenge for us uh you
知道我们什么时候进入导演剪辑 know when we moved to the director's cut
转到ps5 moving to ps5
显然我们想做触觉，我 obviously we wanted to do haptics and i
想想我们想要做的事情 think the scope of what we wanted to do
改变 changed as
我认为会有更多游戏问世 more games came out you know i think
很明显，机器人刚出来的时候是善良的 obviously astrobot when it came out kind
设定了触觉的标准 of set the bar of of what haptics can be
然后当《归来》出来的时候 and then when returnal came out you know
这又一次证明了 again that just kind of demonstrated how
对我们来说，伟大的触觉可以是和的 great haptics can be and and for us we
我们是在移植这款ps4游戏吗 were essentially porting this ps4 game
到ps5。 to ps5 so
我们没有 we weren't
考虑做任何事 considering doing everything with
触觉你知道我们不是巨人 haptics you know we were not a giant
团队，团队重新制作 team the the team for remaster for the
导演的删减比 director's cut was smaller than than
这是什么鬼在音频上 what it was for for ghost on the audio
所以一开始我们要 side so initially we were just going to
试图达到平等，但实际上 kind of try to reach parity but actually
你知道，在设计我们的 you know be mindful about designing our
触觉嗯 haptics um
这很快就变得明显了 and then that quickly became apparent
就像没有 like no
实际上我们真的需要投入 we actually we really need to devote as
尽可能多地挤出时间 much time as we can and make
你知道，世界从此变得鲜活起来 you know the world come alive through
控制器和直通 the controller and through through
触觉设计所以触觉设计本身就是 haptic design so haptic design itself is
真的很吸引人，你知道吗 is really fascinating and you know i'd
我也喜欢加他们来评论 like to add them to comment on it too
因为这有点像 because it's kind of like a
独特的声音设计，对吧 unique form of sound design right it's
它的频率非常小 it's this kind of very small frequency
波段从50赫兹到500赫兹 bands from like 50 hertz to 500 hertz
这些波形 and really kind of the waveforms that
你使用和如何设计 you use and how you design
这真的会影响这个控制器 just really affects how this controller
感觉和你知道你有两个 feels and you know you've got two
扬声器，这样你就可以平移物体 speakers so you can you can pan things
在扬声器周围移动它 to move it around the speaker and it's
真的很有趣，但是 it's just really interesting but um
我认为让我们 one of the things that i think got us to
我们曾经是质量标杆我们曾经是 the quality bar that we were we were
真的在寻找 really searching for
是嗯 was um
你知道的不会太远 you know not too far
在导演剪辑结束之前 before the end of director's cut
嗯，你知道的 um you know we were
我们之前只做定制 we'd previously just been doing bespoke
我们的动画的触觉效果是好的 haptics for our cinematics like okay
我们就挑一些重要的时刻 let's just pick the like big moments and
我们会对它们进行触觉处理 we'll do haptics for those
还有我们的技术音效设计师rj and our technical sound designer rj
马丁利，他就这么走了 mattingly he just went ahead and
刚刚用 and just scored an entire scene with
触觉，你知道，就像 haptics you know just like
就像我们有7.1流 like we have our 7.1 stream for the
整部电影他都在继续 entire cinematic he just went ahead and
为触觉设计了立体流吗 did a stereo stream for haptics
我觉得这真的很不错 and it was like yeah this is really good
他说我没花多长时间 and he was like it didn't take me long
这其实很容易做到 it was it's actually really easy to do
所以apoorva so apoorva
基本上哦 uh basically
实施了一个系统 uh implemented a system so that along
用我们的7.1流如果如果有 with our 7.1 stream if if there was a
触觉流 haptic stream it would just
也会自动流式传输 automatically stream that as well um
所以我们实际上可以用a and so we were actually able to use a
几个声音设计师从 couple of the sound designers from the
返回团队 return team
我们都跳了上去，然后 um and we all kind of just hopped on and
拍了几场戏然后我们就结束了 did a few scenes and uh and we ended up
得到每一个um getting every single um
过场动画是这样得分的，因为它的触感 cut scene scored that way uh for haptics
所以那真的那真的很棒 so that was that was really great and
是的，亚当，我很想听听你的 yeah adam i'd be curious to to hear your
关于触觉的想法，是的，触觉 thoughts on on haptics yeah haptic
设计很有趣，因为 design is a funny one because
你不会经常得到 you don't often get
你不会经常设计声音 you don't often design sounds
你最后不会听到的 uh that you don't end up hearing
这有点疯狂，你能做到吗 which is kind of crazy so you can do
你那种打破一切的东西 things that you that kind of break all
规则就像我要 the rules in terms of like i'm going to
把这个均衡器调高30分贝，比如100赫兹 boost this eq by 30 db at like 100 hertz
这么疯狂的事，因为你 something crazy like that because you're
永远不会听到，但你知道你自己 never going to hear it but you know you
你只是在喂它，所以你知道 just you're just feeding it so you know
工作流程就是插入 the workflow would be to you know plug
将控制器插入电脑 your controller into the computer
和一个合成人乱搞，然后 um and just mess around with a synth and
你甚至都不用听 you don't even have to listen to it
有时候你不听会更好 sometimes it's better if you don't hear
你在做什么，因为你有 what you're doing because you have
先入为主的想法 preconceptions about like what what what
听起来不错，但实际上你只是 sounds good but really you're just
当你设计触觉的时候 when you're designing haptics you just
想知道什么感觉好，就沉默吧 want to see what feels good so just mute
音频或把耳机拿出来 the audio or take the headphones out of
控制器，随便摆弄一下 the controller and just play around with
直到你感觉到什么 the synth until you feel something uh
那感觉很好，然后你 that feels good uh you know and then you
再听一遍，你会觉得天哪 listen back to it you're like oh man
听起来很可怕，但你知道这很有效 sounds terrible but you know it works it
作为触觉效果很好，所以它是 works well as a haptic so yeah it's a
这是一个非常有趣的过程 it's a really interesting process
在你经历了这些之后 so after you went through there are
有没有什么一般的经验法则 there any sort of general rules of thumb
你来这里是为了学习 that you came to to learn in terms of
这个过程有助于加快速度 that process to help speed things up
我的意思是，除了 well i mean apart from the fact that
别别听，我想是因为 don't don't listen to it i think because
是啊，真的，否则你 yeah really because otherwise you you're
试着做一些听起来 trying to make something that sounds
很酷，但不一定感觉 cool and uh it won't necessarily feel
很好，但是我认为 good but i think
嗯 um
平移对触觉有很大帮助 panning helps a lot with haptics uh
我们有控制器 we've got you know in the controller
是音响，我不知道那是什么 it's a stereo i don't know what it is
像振动一样 like a vibration
控制器 controller
当你拥有的时候感觉很好 and it feels good when you have
使用立体图像的东西 something that uses that stereo image
从左到右从右到左，或者你可以 left to right right to left or you can
使用你知道的立体宽度插件和 use you know stereo width plugins and
把这类事情自动化 automate that kind of stuff
所以我认为任何一种自动化都是可行的 so any kind of automation i think works
当有变化的时候真的很好 really nicely when there's like a change
的 of
振动随时间的变化 of vibration over time
我要确保反馈是一致的 i making sure that the feedback matches
行动让你认识你 the action so that the you know you
真的 really
就像信封跟随者一样 almost using like an envelope follower
在你的触觉或设计上 on your haptics or just designing
触觉和你的声音效果 haptics along with your sound effects so
和信封上的都吻合 that they match both the the envelope
振幅和长度因为有 amplitude and the length because having
那种 that kind of
与声音一对一的关系 one-to-one relationship with the sound
触觉振动是巨大的 and the the haptic vibration is huge
然后我们发现有时候 um and then we found like sometimes
做一些非常独特的事情只是感觉 doing some really unique stuff just felt
真的很好，有很多 really good there was a lot of
电影，你知道我们非常 cinematics where you know we were very
对我们发送的内容有选择性 selective about what we were sending
我们设计的是什么触觉 what we were designing for haptics or
发送到触觉系统，所以有时候我们 sending to the haptics so sometimes we
会把对话发送给触觉系统吗 would send dialogue to the haptics if it
是不是很激动地喊了一句又一句 was a really emotional shouted line and
那会感觉很好，就像 that would feel really good like when
金在类似的场景中大喊大衣和枪 jin yells coat and gun in the like scene
当他第一次面对大汗的时候 when he first confronts the khan just
感觉他在喊 feeling him shout that
最后我感觉很好 felt really good there was um at the end
亚里卡拉幽灵的任务 of the um the ghost of yarikala mission
呃 uh
音乐变得如此宏大史诗般的宏大 the music just gets so big and epic
这就是我们要做的 there and so that's actually what we're
通过触觉传递的是音乐 sending through the haptics is the music
这样你就能感觉到音乐 so that you're feeling the music as
你听到了，所以 you're hearing it so yeah it's just
真是一个迷人的新混合工具 really a fascinating new mix tool really
在logo屏幕上 on the logo screen
就在这个logo屏幕上 right here on the logo screen yeah
人们对我们送的礼物印象深刻 people were very impressed that we sent
我们的电影 our cinematic
跟踪我们的标志屏幕通过 uh track for our logo screen through the
触觉，这只是因为 haptics and it was just because
我们有技术 we had the uh the technology that
Apoorva做的很简单 apoorva built it was so easy to just oh
我们有这部电影，所以我可以 well we've got this movie so i can just
制作配乐的触觉版本 make a haptic version of that soundtrack
现在控制器变成了 and now the controller comes to life as
只要你把光盘放进去就行 soon as you put the disc in all right
我想谢谢你 well i'd like to thank you for taking
今天跟我们聊的时间和喜欢 the time to talk with us today and like
谢谢你做了这么棒的 to thank you for making such a great
游戏花了很多时间在它和我 game spending many hours in it and i
非常感谢，谢谢 really appreciate that thanks yeah thank
谢谢，谢谢，谢谢 you thank you thank you thanks
谢谢你，阿莱斯特，谢谢你 thank you aleister and thank you to the
sucker punch公司和索尼公司的人 folks at sucker punch and at sony
互动，帮助把这个 interactive for helping put this
就像我提到的，我们 conversation together as i mentioned we
接下来还有几集吗 have a couple more episodes coming up
献身于不可思议的工作 devoted to the incredible work being
在游戏中完成，所以请确保你 done in gaming so please make sure you
如果你不订阅我们的节目，你会订阅吗 are subscribed to us if you're not
杜比学院已经为你播报了 already the dolby institute podcast you
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播客到此结束，感谢收看 podcasts until then thanks for joining
我们 us
这是一个声音和图像实验室 this has been sound and image lab it's
由杜比学院为您带来 brought to you by the dolby institute
我是主持人格伦·凯泽我们的制片人 i'm your host glenn kaiser our producer
编辑是Michael Coleman and editor is michael coleman our
执行制片人是Amanda schneider executive producers are amanda schneider
jack ferry提供生产支持 and jack ferry with production support
泰勒·海恩斯和我们的制作 by taylor hines and our production
协调员:sunny Chen coordinator is sunny chen
谢谢大家的聆听 thank you for listening
(音乐) [Music]
你 you