so I'm Damon profansick uh and
the talk I want to give today is about
Apostle syndrome which I think a lot of
us feel
um
and uh you know
we feel like maybe we aren't worthy of
of where we are in our career
so just a little bit about me uh
integrisic on Twitter uh I'm technical
director of the access appsec team at
Optus security I've been Consulting for
21 years
I've been performing offensive testing
for the last about 12 years
um
work for numerous different consulting
firms like Spire Labs NCC group Flores
IBM extra thread
um done lots of testing for various
types of firms
lots of Fortune 100s and and alike I
lead our co-lead our local Oasis chapter
here in Indianapolis
and help coordinating Circle city con
here where I'm speaking today
um I've spoken at many large conferences
uh published tools and cves
my career
I don't say any of this to brag that's
not about that this is to set the stage
for what I'm about to talk about
today
so
we're here to talk about imposter
syndrome
which as I said a lot of people feel
especially through coming out of the
pandemic mental health is a very
important topic
in our industry also especially so
that's why I wanted to address this
today
so the Oxford dictionary defines
imposter uh or syndrome as the ability
inability or persistent inability to
believe that one's success is deserved
or has been legitimately achieved as a
result of One's Own efforts or skills
um unfortunately about 70 percent of
people and that's why I feel like it's a
relevant Topic in our industry and
frankly a lot of other Industries uh 70
of people
experience this imposter syndrome at
some point in their career
uh the irony also is that
um the more successful you get
you start to feel it more because you're
achieving more in your career
and you're just not confident in your in
what you've got going on
um and this especially strikes women
which is also very critical for our
industry is there we we're trying to
do more diversity and more inclusion and
and bring more women into our industry
now there's a number of reasons why uh
we experience this imposter syndrome
um so I'm going to try to break those
down a little bit
uh one is the perfectionist and I would
classify myself I fall into this
category
um
and uh some reasons why the
perfectionist struggles is
um
um just like analysis paralysis you you
feel like you can't if you can't get it
perfect you can't get it right you can't
do the job correctly
This was
um really particularly uh you know we're
in reflection uh in middle school I I
could jump really high and far I could
run really fast
and I wanted to go out for a track in
Middle School
but I chose not to because if I couldn't
be the best
I didn't want to do it at all
and I regret that to this day that I
could have done more there
um the other thing too is uh
I'm an artist
um and in high school
I was
Treasurer and then the next secretary of
National Art Honor Society I went
through
advanced placement art and uh you know
all basically I exhausted the art
classes
and uh
but
I was really hard on myself and since
high school
I think I've drawn three things
just because it does give me some
anxiety because I don't do rough drafts
I draw it and you know it is what it is
and so if it's not I'm also a super
realist so if it doesn't look exactly
like what I'm trying to replicate
I struggle with that
um
so
uh the next would be the Superwoman or
Superman uh
the ones having a hero complex they have
to save the day they have to say yes to
everything and they struggle with saying
no and then you get
uh overloaded
um oversubscribe
and uh I struggle with this a little bit
too feeling like I'll if I say no that's
just weakness I'm not I can't handle
everything and we and the truth be told
we can't handle everything so that's not
realistic and that's going to cause more
anxiety and more of that syndrome
uh the other one is the natural genius
these are people that do have an innate
skill that's already
in their DNA that they are just really
good at whatever it is
um and what they do is then rely on that
natural ability and uh
then what that leads to also is the lack
of preparation for what they're about to
do because they just rely that they are
really good at what they do
uh and that can cause them to fail
because they are not prepared
uh the next one would be The Soloist
so this is the Lone Wolf you know go on
their own
guns ablazon
um and early on my career
uh when I first started Consulting 21
years ago
this was this came up on my review
probably every year is like you you
don't you're not team player you're
trying to go It Alone you you're
um you know you need to work with others
and
and that came out of I think again back
to the perfectionists it came out of
if you want something done right you do
it yourself and I don't trust other
people or rely on other people also I
can do it
um and and that that just is going to
build anxiety and also lead to failure
you know eventually
um the other one is the expert the one
who has to be the smartest person in the
room and they don't feel like they're
good enough if they can't Trump
everybody in the room
um and they have a strong fear of
looking dumb
uh and and that leads again back to
anxiety and um stress
and and then imposter syndrome that
maybe they're faking it maybe they
aren't the smartest person in the room
uh as I said before
um the irony of it is that uh the more
successful uh you are in your career the
more you may feel this way as we get as
we grow in our careers
again
one of these things too is like back to
the perfect perfectionist is uh you know
one of the issues is procrastination
um putting things off
out of fear that they won't have it
completely necessary to their high
standards or their boss's high standards
um and oftentimes it's also because or
if they do succeed they feel like it's a
fluke or it's luck uh that God with them
there
um the other flip side coin of that is
over preparation so this is like
um
uh not feeling like you you have
everything right exactly then you know
you're kind of just stuck in them up
um
uh this is really reinforces the idea
that the Imposter needs to work extra
hard
and would not have succeeded otherwise
um
and then once because they work so hard
often this leads to burnout
also a problem in our industry
um
I talked about the smartest person in
the room thing uh I didn't hold my hand
up for that one but I also I dealt dealt
with this in my early career as well
um my first job
I started Consulting right out of the
gate I I was never you know practitioner
the company that I was with we uh you
know we did a lot of things and I
learned
basically if it plugs in the wall or you
know have Blinky Lights I've done it
anything you can think of
um
and I ended up in my team being the one
that everyone came to
something was if they had a sticky
problem that they couldn't figure out
like they came to me and inevitably I
usually could fix it or figure out a way
to fix it
um and they started calling me Neo
around the office which inflates your
ego right you know and um
my boss
uh he got jealous and was like Hey
everybody stop calling him Neo you know
because
you have to not be afraid to not be the
smartest person
I've you know I've worked for
like I said numerous consulting firms
and as I Advanced my career and worked
for some really rock star companies like
NCC group and
um uh you know just all over my listed
uh I found like I'm not
and I may be a senior person to a person
and frankly
in that area smarter than I am we have
to not be afraid there's too many areas
for us to to be the expert in everything
here and be the smartest person
um
so but I mean the more we learn and know
the more we realize we don't know
and that's what growing in our career is
about and and trusting on other people
um and I that's why where I learned like
I don't know everything and I can't know
everything
um
the other thing that my lovely wife is
actually sitting it on it's here uh we
talk about a lot is that
um kids growing their brains back in
their 20s right uh and realizing that
they're their parents weren't the morons
they thought they were they don't know
everything so this is about growth and
about learning that we don't know
everything and there are other people
that you know know stuff and uh
and so this is their coming of age
failure
this goes back to all the things they
said people have a fear of failure
failure is necessary
failure is how we grow
here's a vast difference between
intelligence and wisdom
wisdom's gained by failing
and learning from that failure
um
and knowing we will fail
it's it's just like in our industry we
say no more uh if we'll be briefed it's
when will be breached we will fail
and that's okay but the most key part of
that is fail fast
fail fast realize it and learn from it
grow
so that you don't fail again in that
same manner
you may fail in another manner but in
that manner you won't fail
and so learn from those mistakes
um
one of the first podcasts when I got
really deep into information security I
listened to was was one that was a
recording of many you may know Adam
Savage from MythBusters
he gave a keynote speech at Defcon 17
um which was
just mind-blowing to me
and one of the key statements I took out
of that it was a story of how as he got
into the um
his industry of like movie
you know special effects and things like
that uh
uh how he failed uh so it was a whole
talk on failure was superb
he said some key things and one of the
key things he said is I don't trust
people who haven't failed
and that's for various reasons one he
said they're Liars
they everybody failed
uh number two would be they're gonna
throw you under the bus because they
don't want to look like they failed
and number three is
they just don't have enough experience
maybe they're new to the industry maybe
they're new to this area
um so
uh that's why he says I don't trust
people who haven't failed
so what now what I mean I've given a lot
of stuff about this but
how do we work past it how do we move on
uh the first thing is just start Where
You Are
you know we're at this place acknowledge
uh the way that you feel uh and it and
own it
um but know that you're not alone
as I said in the beginning 70 percent
uh of folks almost three quarters of
folks are going to experience this at
some point in their career
so you're not alone
you don't need to be perfect
you don't
again you're going to fail
you have to acknowledge that
Perfection is frankly it's as impossible
it's impossible ask the possible task
um but
if you're not perfect and you do fail
like I said before learn from those
mistakes so that you can improve and be
better next time
also
um part of like especially the
perfectionists
and things fear feedback and criticism
ask
for constructive criticism
ask for it to come back so that you can
get better at what you do what you do
and
um and Excel and that will help lower
the anxiety and lower that feeling of
impossible
my first consulting job
I had uh
I had an incident with with a CEO that
uh
they weren't doing things the way that I
felt they should be doing right
um and so I talked to the CEO
is like
blah blah blah you know we're not doing
this thing
right and he's like
well you know I disagree I'm like well
no
I was seeing cocky arrogant early in my
career
um and defensive
um
hey I was Neo right
well I got back to the office
I got called in by my boss
I was like hey did you argue with the
CEO of one of our clients
I was like no I didn't argue I just told
him how it is
and he told me something that I remember
to this day uh and and take heart and
especially in Consulting
perception is reality
if he felt you were arguing with him
you were arguing with him it doesn't
matter what you think or feel so
just keep in mind that people are going
to perceive things their own way
and uh you know move past it
um Socrates gave a great quote quote um
I want to read is uh true knowledge
exists in knowing that you know nothing
we don't know everything and and we
would never will and so you just have to
accept Where You Are
um
another great quote by Neil deGrasse
Tyson is um
one of the great challenges in life is
knowing
enough
to think
you're right but not knowing enough
that you're wrong
and you know this is where the kids grow
their brains back later check that out
also stick to the fact
you know understand
Where You Are
um
take maybe take some time to reflect on
your prior achievement
don't forget where you came from
you have built a great career you have
done great things
so don't be too hard on yourself
think about that
also something that I learned in my
first Consulting career especially this
especially great for uh like when you
have your annual review or whatever
um if you get emails or accolades
say those
document those
um it's really good for reflection but
also like I said great for job reviews
to be able to send to your awesome
uh and to be able to talk back because
you I mean you don't really remember
everything that might
or all the Praises that you may have
gotten and sometimes
in our industry there isn't a lot of
praise
thankless job but when you get those
save them for your own edification but
also for like I said job reviews
also don't go It Alone you know um I
mentioned 70 percent
there are other ones out there
struggling
so
realize when you need help early and you
might be struggling
don't be embarrassed to ask for help I
know that's a challenging thing
especially in our industry is that we
um
there's there can be an ego problem
um and so but don't be embarrassed to
ask for help especially if you have a
safe group to ask for help uh whether
it's within your company whether it's
within this community
uh ask for help set your ego aside
um because
medley we're all still learning and and
we have to understand that
additionally recognize others
achievements
um
you like as I said you can't know
everything
especially in an expansive and
ever-changing field as ours where one
day it's one thing and then a whole
another day it's something else
we're constantly learning
and recognize that
um don't compare apples to oranges uh
just because someone's really good at
like mobile pen testing which you're
really good at web app testing
you you can't you'd be down on yourself
like oh I don't know everything I
you know understand is apples and
oranges we all have different strengths
and weaknesses
um
so don't be threatened by them
uh embrace them use leverage them use
them for mentorship for your own growth
in learning
um
also things may not always be what they
think it may be you know uh one way on
the outside you know an example of this
is like social media people want
people's other families on social media
oh they're always on vacation they're
always having the perfect life the
perfect kids
it's not always the case
and so
keep that in mind too that maybe
everyone else doesn't have it put
together and you are not put together so
rely on that
also as I talked about feedback before
you provide valuable feedback
it's a valuable constructive feedback
not just criticism but something that
that they could use take away and learn
from it and then
um you know become a stronger consultant
or practitioner or whatever it may be
this applies to all of our life it
doesn't have to just be security
industry
um
also something that as I became a people
manager and even probably before
um
praise them personally
um lift them up
but also what I try to do is uh you know
if if I hear something good or I see
something good that uh some individual
is doing well
I'll send the email to them usually
seeing their managers so that they get
the recognition that again in the
thankless career we sometimes do
won't get and we'll help them on their
job reviews
uh and and with that be specific on what
they did very well
uh decide to thrive so don't get stuck
in the mud you know just
that's the whole point of this is move
on from it it's a state of mind
uh often as we uh tell kit our kids
um we can't control all the
circumstances but we can control
how we react to those circumstances
so it's not always going to go your way
and that may be not your fault and maybe
Alexander your control but
uh you decide how you want to
internalize that and how you want to
handle that
you decide uh how we respond
and believe in yourself
I mean you made it to where you are
for various reasons believe in yourself
so get give yourself your own little pep
talk
um
lastly
connect with other imposters
I use air quotes around that imposters
because as I said again 70 feel the same
way you do and so don't be afraid to
reach out
seek out others who have the same way of
feeling
and don't feel ashamed because you're in
a big crowd of people that feel likely
the same way you do at at least at some
point and they can remember and relate
so reach out if you have any of these
concerns or feelings
with that I'll take questions
comments
okay
that is it
ah okay
well
so the question was how do you provide
that constructive feedback to someone
without them feeling offended
there's a there's multi parts of that
um one is as I mentioned before uh
part of that's on them if they feel that
way
um
but
so you can't be afraid to provide that
constructive feedback
um and not everyone is going to take it
well
the first time
or the second time where they're done or
whatever
but they may reflect on it maybe years
later and
be like man she's right you know
I am seeing a pattern I I do need to
change this
um
so don't be afraid to do that because
you may offend someone
um and that's why I also add that
clarifier valuable or constructive
if you're just scraping and someone just
right with them it's not it's not
constructive
also come with a recommendation
um
uh people who worked for me uh you know
I could tell them don't come to me with
a problem just with just the problem
come to me with one maybe two maybe
three solutions that you recommend
um so if you're giving constructive
criticism
don't just criticize
uh maybe give them some helpful
recommendations that they could do to
modify that behavior or whatever it is
and
in the future
um one of the
one of the interview questions I love to
ask uh when I'm interviewing people is
tell me about a project or time or
something that horribly wrong
and what did you learn from it how did
you handle it how did you if it was a
client facing thing how did you you know
a sway their concerns
and that is for a very good reason that
I asked that tricky question because
that goes back to the Adam Savage quote
I don't trust people who haven't failed
uh if they tell them can't name and not
a time and I tell them it doesn't have
to be in your work career it doesn't
have to be
Purity related
you tell me about time because I want
them to be honest I want to see their
honesty and I want to gauge where they
are on that list of of concerns that
Adam Savage had
um
so and I want to see that they had
growth that they learned something from
it and
I'm not going to repeat that task in the
future
so that's why I asked that question
does that answer your question
okay uh anything else yeah
oh that's a very good question the
question was any tips on recognize when
others might be having imposter syndrome
and helping them through it
um
I I would reflect back to
uh probably the slide
is is recognizing that the ways that
people might
pigeonhole themselves into this right
look for the lone wolf look for the
perfectionists who you know it's not
getting things done because they can't
get it perfect
um
just you know look through this list see
look for the person who you you ask
stuff for and then just never say no
um and I think that would be a good way
to identify those and and maybe uh
gently
suggest some things that might help from
the list that I gave later on how to how
to make it better
like you might even seek those those
persons not people out and say uh
you reach out to them and say hey I'm
from I'm suffering from this you know
you make yourself vulnerable and then
reciproc reciprocity they might then
come back and and relate to a time that
they fell down to
anything else
okay
well thank you very much