My dad has alwaystold me, like,
you make sureyou're happy,
because...
you're ultimatelyin charge of that,
you know whatI'm saying?
Like...[sniffs]
-Meaning ---Don't depend on anyone.
You know...
goin' back to when wegot married, like...
the day before,
he was supposedto come out,
like, he just saidhe's not coming'...
'cause he just --
he didn'tbelieve that
I was doingthe right thing.
Wow.
That's sabotage.
He...
had a girlfriend.
Like, youknow, like...
I guess my momhad called him
for somethingand, like,
she picked upthe phone and --
I don't -- I don'tknow what h--
something transpired,and --
Mm-hm.
[voice breaking] Youknow, it's just, like,
my dad --
[whispers]It's okay.
No, I don't evenknow why
I'm gettingupset. [laughs]
-Well, keep going.-[clears throat] Um...
no, my dad alwaystold me that --
he said --he's like,
"You taught me a lot --[clears throat]
You taught me a lotabout relationships,
like...
how much you love."
[crying] You know, myparents had split up...
shortly thereafter,so it's just --
[stifles cries][sniffs]
it's just like, Idon't understand.
[Orna] Yeah.
I think it just tiesinto everything...
that we --
like the mistrustand stuff like that,
and...
as much as...
I may put myself in aposition where it looks...
like I'm doingsomething, like, I--
that's -- I wouldnever do that.
Mm-hm.
If I cheat onyou or if --
there's no turningback from that.
[sniffs]
♪slow airymusic♪
[Orna] So youwere away, or...
-remind me?-I was.
-I was away.-What were you --
I went on a father-sontrip with my dad.
-Oh.-Yeah.
So who went?
Just me andmy dad.
Wow, that'sextraordinary.
Yeah.
[Orna] And how areyou two as a couple?
-We're ---[laughs]
I think we'reokay.
Yeah, we're okay.
We just weren't on thebest terms when I left.
Yeah.
What happened?
He was withhis dad.
He gave me a call,and he was like,
"I'm on my way homewith my dad."
So I head home --[clears throat]
and...no onewas home...
so I thoughtthat was weird.
Maybe...they went outto eat or something,
which... again,
I thought thatthat was strange
that he wouldn't evenhave called me t--
to invite meor anything.
So...
I went aheadand I...
ate by myselfat home...
and then he endsup coming home...
and he's like,"Where's my dad?"
And I was like, "Wait youweren't with your dad?"
And he's like, "No,I, like, went-"
I went to take care ofsomething with the car
before I left.
He kind of, like...brushed it off.
He was like, "Oh, I wentto the mechanic."
I knew that he hadbeen drinking,
'cause I could smell it whenhe sat down next to me
on the couch.
He said whathe said, like,
"Oh, I -- I wentthere to, like,
get my mom's tiresrotated, and...
you know, I just stayedthere to hang out."
Like, this and that.
And I honestly didn'treally believe it,
because...
why should I?
It comes across...
like...
you're hidingsomething.
[voice cracking] I just feellike the lack of effort
just really shows me howhe feels about me,
and it's not --it's not good.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And I guess I haveto see that,
'cause that'sreally --
that's really whohe is, you know?
Mm-hm.
[sighs]
So while he wasaway, I felt...
almost like --like a --
almost likea relief...
because I feellike I didn't have
to worry aboutanything.
What -- your faceis saying a lot.
Wh-- what areyou feeling...
when you'rehearing Evelyn?
It's just,like, I--
I feel like it'san overreaction.
It's my buddy'sshop,
I went there...
he was doin'me a favor.
They had beersin the fridge.
He knew I wasn'tgonna be here
for my birthday
He just said, "Oh,you know,
like, hang outfor a little bit."
He was an old f--it was nothing...
nothing, but...
I get homeand it's just...
immediate attitude.
And then he --
listening to her tellyou, it's just like,
"Oh, I don't knowwhat he's doing,
I don't knowwhat he's doing."
Like...
why do youautomatically assume
that I'm doingsomething...
to you?
She didn't call me,first of all.
Mm-hm.
You know, sh- shecould've been like,
"Hey, um...
I- I didn't knowwhere you were,"
or like, "I didn't knowwhat was going on.
Like...
I had this...plan,
like, we were gonna dosomething for dinner.
Like, I didn't knowwhat we were doing."
Like, there'sno plan.
And then I- I would'veapol- it's a-
it's amiscommunication.
Why didn'tyou each call?
Why didn't you call andwhy didn't you call?
[sighs]
I just wasn't...
thinking.
I r- really, like,
didn't expect to bethere as long as I was.
But I'm just curious,why didn't you call?
[Alan] I just-I just didn't.
-It was a bad--But say-
try to- try tothink about
what was goingon inside you.
I didn't think I wasgone for that long,
or that Ineeded to.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
What are youthinking, Evelyn?
Why not callor text?
I guessbecause I...
thought he would'vebeen home,
and then the factthat he wasn't...
and didn't sayanything,
and I thought thathe was with his dad.
I was like,
"Okay, they eitherwent out to eat
and they...didn'tinvite me [laughs]
so I'm just gonnado my own thing...
-and I'll let them-"-So you started-
but you startedto go down
a certain path offeeling insulted?
Yeah, I guess.
Yeah.
I'm sorry tointerject,
but like,you see?
Like, all thesethings when
you could'vejust asked me.
You could'vejust called.
Like, I don'tlike to be...
looking for you.
Like, I don'twant to be,
"Oh, well, if you-
if you were interested,or if you couldn't-"
You know, "If youwere concerned,
then why didn'tyou just call me?"
W- why do I have tobe looking for you?
-Did it--I'm an adult.
If I'm gone fortwo hours,
it doesn't meanI'm off...
-cheating on her.-Mm-hm.
And that's-
that's the vibethat she gives me.
Like I'm beingdishonest or deceitful.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
A- and it-frankly, it just-
it pushesme away.
And it's not, like,
even thoughwe've been...
doing thisand, like-
I don't feel likeanything is changing.
[Orma] Mm-hm.
[Evelyn] I feel like thingswere getting better.
Do you feel likeyou...
telling me...
and communicatingwith me --
'cause I feel like we weredoing well for a while.
Do you feel like...
that was notworking for you?
[voice cracking] Was thatthat difficult for you?
Well, let's...
hear what Alanhas to say.
I did not have aproblem with it,
but it's like, theone time I don't,
it's like the endof the world.
-Mm-hm.-[sniffs]
But knowing that that'swhat's gonna happen,
I mean, we- we canall predict it already,
that that'sthe dynamic...
why go there?
You mean go downthat route?
Yeah.
Uh, I don'tknow.
♪softpiano♪
[sigh]
[Alan] Have a goodnight, Orna.
-You too.-Good night.
[Orna] They were supposedlygetting better.
He was beingmore up-front,
she was feelingless suspicious...
and then there's,like, a backslide...
and they're both feelingkind of hopeless.
They each described...
not feeling upfor the effort...
a-- almost like there'snot enough love, or...
But...
they were gettingrewards for the effort,
week by week.
It was a lotof effort
and they gottheir rewards.
[Orna] Yeah.
So some- there'ssomething else in here.
Could it be the cruise?
It's like, it's a verybig thing to do-
He can't really bein this relationship
because of hisidentification
-with his father.-And his father did not,
um...
anoint them.
Yeah.
I mean, that is themost astounding thing.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
♪funkymusic♪
[meow]
I go through phaseswhere I'm just, like,
I don't wannahave sex,
and, like, notinterested.
I can bepersuaded,
but like,ennh, no.
And then I go throughphases where I'm like,
"Oh, my God, I can'tget sex off my mind.
Please, Lord,give me...
-sex right now."-Mm-hm.
There's been a lotof that lately...
-and--A lot of "give me"?
-A lot of me being like--Mh-hm.
"Oh my God,"like, revved up.
Mm-hm.
And...
Lauren being like...
"Yeah, sure,let's do it."
Where I'm like,
"Mm, you're notinto this."
I'm just not...
feeling just very...
sexual...
right now.
Sarah has been ina period of, like,
extreme...
-like, wanting to have sex.-Mm-hm.
And...
she'll say...
"I'd like to havesex this evening."
-Mm-hm.-I say...
"Great!"
-Like, "I'm in."-Mm-hm.
Like, I- I'll- I'llabsolutely have sex.
Like, I mightnot be...
wanting, like,in that moment
-to have sex--Mm-hm.
but...
the fact that shewants to have sex,
like, yeah, I cancertainly be into that.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And...
then nothingwill happen,
and then I feel like Icontinually get blamed.
And what'syour wish?
That she would,like,
want to havesex, or, like,
at least bringit up-
That she wouldwant it,
or that she would initiate?
I guess
initiate...
because...
I feel like I'malways initiating.
Lauren reallyhardly ever...
I mean, I don't-
like, percentage-wise,maybe...
30 percent?
Does thatfeel fair?
-What are you asking?-Initiates?
Yeah, I'd saythat's a generous.
I would say it'sgenerous too,
but I was trying tobe kind. [laughs]
No, that's verygenerous.
-Um--So you initiate more...
and thatbothers you?
I think I...
want to feel wanted.
Part of it is mostlikely tied...
to...
um...
I had my surgery...
uh, my bottomsurgery-
-Mm-hm.-Six months into
our relationship.
Theres a, uh...
a complicationthat I have that...
uh, makes, um-
-it's incredibly painful.-Yeah.
It kind of, like...
shuts me down,uh, pretty good.
-Mm-hm.-Um...
Which is fine, we've likeworked around that,
-but it was...-Yeah, it's not uncommon,
-right?- No.
Yeah, it's- I havea stricture,
-which is, um--Mm-hm.
Yeah, just feelslike jagged glass...
and I have a lotof shame...
around it...
um...
What, uh-
what's the shame?
Help me...
understand,get there.
I feel like I didsomething wrong.
I think she feelslike it's her fault...
that...
her vagina causesher pain.
I-- i-- i--is that it?
I just- I feel kindof incomplete,
and kind of...
um...
[sighs]
I j-- I feel veryashamed.
It's just kind of, like,where I'm at, like...
down there,and it just...
makes me-
I think, uh,I'm angry.
-I think I'm angry.-Mm-hm.
Still, I feel likethe shame is...
there's some--something hidden in that.
[Sarah] Hm.
Like, wh-- what isthis shame about?
Like somethingis getting...
passed around...
through the shame...
and I-- I wanna go backto how it affects
the two of you.
W-- how has it affectedyour sex life,
-your erotic life, your--Yeah.
I feel like we got into littlegrooves here and there
where...thingswould click,
and we'd...makesomething work,
and then we'dfall out of it...
and then it was just reallyhard to start back up.
Like, I think atsome point...
probably right beforewe got married,
it was like...
we were going, like,a month or two...
without having sex.
-I think two months.-Without any kind of sex?
-Yeah.-Yeah.
And then whenwe got married,
like, I think Istarted panicking
right before we gotmarried, of just being like,
"Oh no.
Like, there's part ofme that's dying."
Meaning if you giveup on your sex life,
-the two of you.-Yeah.
I remember, that wasmy only hesitation
was being, like,"Our sex life,
I don't know ifthis is right."
Did you talkabout it then?
We tried talkingabout it.
I feel like every timewe talked about it, it-
it got heated,
and like...
I think thatLauren got-
felt...defensive
and like I wasattacking.
But then afterwe got married,
we opened upour relationship...
and...
that, like...
it was like...
-a- a pressure relief valve.-Mm-hm.
Just the conversationof being able
to have sex withother people
took a lot ofpressure off.
[Lauren]It did.
That suddenly shewasn't on the defense,
she was like,
"Oh, youhave needs-
Mm-hm.
Cool.
And here's asolution, like,
where maybe you canget your needs met."
Mm-hm.
And then she waskind of thinking, like,
"Well, shit, maybeI wanna date men.
Yeah.
And then wegot to...
-explore all of that--Mm-hm.
together, andthat was...
just...
magic.
That was like a-
such a turning pointfor our relationship.
-It was pretty cool.-Mm-hm.
And then suddenly,like, we were, like,
having sex withother people...
separately, together,
and thenit was like
encouraging usto have sex,
-like more sex together.-Yeah.
Amazing.
And it really justsort of, like,
changed ourwhole world.
Mm-hm.
And now that I saythis, I'm like,
we haven't datedanybody externally
-in about a year.-Mm-hm.
And I have, like, a massivecrush on someone.
-[laughs]-Mm-hm.
And so, like, I amsuper revved up,
like, I know that'swhy I'm revved up.
-Mm-hm.-Yeah.
And...
it's been reallyfun to, like,
share my fantasywith Lauren,
and like tell her everystep of the way,
and be like, "Thishappened today,
this happened today."You know?
-Like, crushes happen.-Mm-hm.
And it's been great, butI'm not getting the, like-
like-
like I wanna bringthat energy to her
and be like,"Let's t--"
'cause nothingis happening.
But like, let'sdo this. [laughs]
-Like, let's--Mm-hm.
Let's roll withthis energy,
and she's not...
especially, like...yeah.
I-- she's not in a placewhere she can, like...
-roll with me.-Come along.
Yeah.
I just- I thinkthat's-
I don't-
what do you wantmy response to be?
I just wish thatyou were, like,
as excited to havesex with me
as I am...
to have sexwith you.
♪softmusic♪
♪♪♪
I don't want tofight with you.
I really, really wouldbe so happy
if we could juststay calm.
Remember the-our safe word, okay?
-It's Mamie.-Mamie.
[laughs]
-Hi.-Hi.
Hey.
[Orna]Hmm.
One of the things thatwe didn't get to
is that...
Mau, you know...
he left homeat 15.
He left for anolder woman,
because thiscollege-aged woman...
picked him up...
and...
bed-bound him fora couple of days.
His family didn'tknow where he was...
and it was, like,his sexual awakening,
slash...
like, thatwas it.
Childhood was over.
And he was withthis woman
and...he reallynever went home.
Mm-hm.
This was thefirst person
that ever saidto him,
"You're greatat something,
you're greatat this."
You know, she-it happened to be
that she was treatingyou as this, like...
you know, sexualpowerhouse...
child.
But...
that experience,
that foundationalexperience,
then informs...
so much thatwe fight --
that we havefought about.
Okay, I- I needto hear more...
just to know howto understand
-this piece of history.-Okay.
[Orna]How old were you
when your parentsseparated, finally?
Um...
I think probablylike 11 or 12.
And- and whodid you go with?
[Mau] My mother.
She didn't so mu--
I don't think she, like,really took care of us.
I mean, wewere there ,
and so wewere safe,
because shewas not...
violent the waymy- my dad was.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
-Um--So you were safe physically.
Yeah, we were safephysically, um-
But what kind ofmother was she?
I mean, I'm a big fanof my mother's.
Uh, you know,
my mother is...
uh, she's likeincredibly warm.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.-And- and-
and sweet and...
vain andthoughtless.
-You know, uh--Mm-hm.
I mean, tothis day,
I think if you were toask any of my siblings,
we'd all agree thatwe're still waiting
for her to takeus to the pool
35 years ago.
I mean, she-
she never oncesuccessfully
accomplished,like, any, like...
you know, you-
"We're gonnado a thing."
Like, it neverhappened.
You mean packup a bag
and go tothe pool and-
Anything, likethere's no-
there's nothingthat ever-
a-- and, uh, you know,maybe that's unfair.
You know, the truth isshe had a bunch of kids...
she was overwhelmed.
By the timeyou were 15,
what was goingon a-- at home?
I mean, our-
You were goingto school still?
Tha- that's-I dropped out.
But you dropped outaround this relationship?
Um...
it wa-- no, it wasn'tabout the relationship.
-Although--Was it around the same time?
It was around thesame time, yeah.
So what was going onat home around then?
Uh, I think it was just sortof more of the same.
It was like m--our house was
unsupervised.
When I disappeared,like, I mean,
I-- I hooked upwith this girl,
and I just wentwith her, and...
it never dawnedon me to-
to communicatewith anybody, uh-
I-- I neverhad before.
About thislove affair.
No, no, no.
-About--About being-
not coming homefor dinner
and then notcoming home.
Right, but we didn'thave dinner.
That's what I'msaying, though,
-I'm trying to just--Yeah.
[Orna]I see.
He just didn't comehome one day.
Like, the thought of one ofmy kids doing that. [laughs]
-[laughs] No, no, I--It's, like, unthinkable.
When I did showback up,
my y-- youngerbrother, Reg,
he was like...
"Yo, where'veyou been?"
And I'm like, "Oh,I was just-
I met this girl,I was with her."
He's like,"Oh, okay."
-[laughs]-That was it.
That was the extentof the conversation,
-o- of--Right, no parent questioning.
-No.-No older brother,
-nobody noticing.-I mean, I h--
[laughs] I don't knowif my mother is aware
-I wasn't there.-To this day, yeah.
I mean, she- shemay not have known.
That's upsetting.
Come on, I mean, you-
we can't joke...that far.
Hold on.
I-- I appreciatethat.
It isn't upsettingto me.
I, uh-
having kidsof my own...
I-
I would be veryupset and-
And just thinking-
you would be upsetas a parent,
but just thinkingabout the kid...
Yeah, I mean-
No one worryingwhere you are
at 15, that'supsetting.
Or before, that'supsetting,
and that'snon-negotiable.
Okay.
I-- I don't have asense that, like,
things wereterrible.
I mean, I canunderstand...
that I didn't have sort ofa typical or- or...
it was not a paththat would...
genuinely leadto success.
-Yeah.-I mean...
we never hadenough food.
I never- I mean, the firstnew clothes I ever wore
were clothes I boughtfor myself.
You know, the-that was...
my experience, butbecause that was my exper--
I mean, I couldre-write it...
but I don't know whatthe point would be.
♪softmusic♪
[Orna] He isself-educated,
he didn't go to schoolbeyond ninth grade.
Very poor...
um, no one reallytaking care of him.
-Yeah, so--Extreme neglect.
Bu- neglecton her side,
but I've got "abused"here because
-the dad was actually---The dad was
-physically abusive.-Yeah.
[Orna] He says, "We're-we're still waiting
for her to take us tothe pool 35 years ago."
Mm.
He's illustrating herincompetence,
but if we just shiftour attention,
there is the child...
still waiting35 years later
for their mother
they are inlove with...
who is rightover there...
-and doesn't even--Oh my God,
that is thebirthday thing.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's thebirthday thing.
-[laughs]-There you have it, right.
Right, still waiting.
So a foundationalstrand of his identity
-is "I do it alone.-Mm-hm.
-No one helps me.-Yeah.
No one believesin me,
but I willsucceed...
doing it myway."
[Orna] Right, which iswhat he does with her.
Yes.
And this isa real-
this is oneof those,
"I saved my life...
because I metthat challenge.
Don't mess withmy system."
Okay.
♪groovybeat♪
No, we've nevergotten this far...
before.
[Annie] We'venever been...
♪Don't let medo it to him♪
♪He came to me witha messed up face♪
Thank you.
-Have a good one.-[inaudible]
♪What he don't knowis I ain't no clown♪
♪So I pulled up closeand I struck him down♪
♪Struck him down,down, down, down♪
♪Yeah♪
♪Struck himdown♪
♪Words are words butwhat he did was bad♪
♪Maybe he thought hecould just hold me back♪
♪What he don't know isI ain't no clown♪
♪So I pulled up closeand I struck him down♪
♪Da-da-dada-da-da♪
♪Ooh, I struckhim down♪
♪I struck him down,down, down, down...♪
♪Ahh♪
♪I struck himdown♪
♪Yeahyeah♪
♪He came to me witha messed-up face♪
♪Tryna hold me downput me in my place♪
♪What he don't knowis I ain't no clown♪
♪So I pulled up closeAnd I struck him down♪
♪I struckhim down♪
♪Yeah♪
♪Words are words butwhat he did was bad♪
♪Maybe he thought hecould just hold me back♪
♪What he don't knowis I ain't no clown♪
♪So I pulled up closeand I struck him down♪
♪Pulled up close andI struck him down♪
♪I struck himdown♪
♪No, nono, no♪
♪I'munstoppable♪
♪I'minvincible♪
♪You get inmy way♪
♪Then I'll be like himand I'll strike you down♪
♪Yeah♪
♪I struckhim down♪