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and the colonel had gotten but as you lab equipment at least the BME
gonna blow to play disc you know it was a
he was so good to see them again they've they've walked through hell and back to
report this story and
you know they they they've really been put under a microscope put under
scrutiny by all the most powerful governments in the world
and I think they stay on the right sideline me they
day babe they work to minimize harm they work to maximize public gains
again and again and again and you can tell when I get Mahan
I see that they understand that you know
they they have gone through probably one of the hardest years of their lives
and they've come out on the other side with their heads held high I
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in but I so often he died as an internist that there's no flag to
this feeling and I the address is loading to Hong Kong
don't have a pretty but American the sort quite badly the grameen
the willamette gonna hit balls were also but supported
snobby people classic days mir's is newly will tonight it does it to that ok
look at the massage was cool
see people didn't admit I use links are you you have worked with a pasado
putting US dealer who said tablets no abuse represent local his boss at the
club as an empty lot because to me look me up a sweat a public address
to Greeley but if it that the you know saint is forcing her to give this
most days impel surpassed all those of artist
specimen a pass at was indicating kill tell the video will suspend I misspoke
nobody showing us apart that prone to follow you didn't do any interviews
for a year with the few exceptions of the washington post 21
email interview with us and way
why did you decide now to come forward to and give this interview
so for me in when the story broke
I didn't want to be a distraction I didn't want people to look at me into
to think about me instead of thinking about the issues
the problem once the
media in in a number of countries was just there so fascinated with
with the people involved that they won't they won't leave it alone no matter what
so people still talk about me and I stayed away to try to discourage it but
it didn't work
are however what's amazing
is that in the course of the last year despite
the distraction that the media you know you mister pursuing me
I is that
the debate continued to grow and because of that
I'm confident that today now nearly a year on from the initial revelations
I I can talk about things I can talk about how I feel that it's not gonna
take away
debate it's no longer a distraction I can take anything away from that and so
I feel it's a
it's safe from 82 them to discuss my feelings
post comments atom com yes want to marry London Dublin dunno y Scarlets
think that mean additional Mitchell what are your influences
I've had so many influences in my life that I i don't want to pick out one
mom if I were to pick any single influence
a without going into books specifically without going to academic
and clinton's I would say it's the Internet you know I am
I meant but child love the Internet how bout to
people how many friends
that influenced you up
like I think everybody home
anyone who has the the benefit the close family ties can't help but be influenced
by them
%uh I don't like to talk about my family because it's very private they didn't
ask to be part of this my I don't want to let it drag them into my politics my
story mom
but you know I've been inspired by the integrity I love the people around me
throughout my life people have been faced with really hard choices that were
really incomparable
but somehow they found the strength to
do what was right how did you learn about computers
it was very natural was organic I was kinda self-taught
I was fascinated with technology om
when the my father brought the computer home for the first time
now where you know brought me into his office and I used a computer there
and I'm I wanted to understand
and then eventually I i became that the that that child who was always a
taking apart unseen and disassembling the toaster
I'm and not knowing how to put it back together but then the
I had the benefit of a family they were smart enough to arm
make the decision that if I'm gonna take something apart
it should be something that the that I like that I need to use not the toaster
oven
so when I take apart my video game or you know whatever children are
interested in
I I can use it until I figure out how to put it back together and I was very
helpful to me because it helped me
begin to learn to understand things in a systematic way
after 9/11 you decided to join did
armed forces and go to Iraq
what happened so I didn't actually go to Iraq II
I volunteered to do so om
because I believed and what the government was saying at the time which
was that the
the government out iraq was creating weapons of mass destruction and they
were planning to terrorize people around the world chemical weapons nuclear
weapons biological weapons
mom and that the
leadership over iraq was a
a dictator and the people there were desperate for freedom
I and I thought it was it was selfless who was noble thing
to to try to help free
these oppressed people and to do some good for the world up
when I got to the army up
you know there was there was an interesting political awakening because
I saw that many people there were not interested
and doing particular good for the world they weren't necessarily interest in
contribution
they were thinking about either the benefits of service more they were
trying to feel some sort of macho image
this is a man who has betrayed his country who is sitting in russia and
authoritarian country
where he is taken refuge to think that too
and it will come a time when you can go back to the US without
being prosecuted for treason
which is what you would face today if you go back
I would really like to think so
arm but that's not a question I can answer that's up to my government
mom there's no question that if I could choose anywhere in the world to be
I'd be at home in the United States with my family home
working from my government and then doing everything I can to continue
contributing to the society that I love so much
but the the reality is that
there he is the there's a great resistance
in some areas of government in the United States and some
agencies and government where an official is embarrassed
by the policies that they promoted that they tried to keep us secrets the public
wouldn't find out
and then there were revealed a they can use their
authorities to make things very own cock most someone journalists have been
asking the government again and again and again can you show that anyone was
hurt that anyone was killed in any lives were lost there was
any harm earning danger caused by these disclosures and they've never been able
show a single example
even though the man asked again again again but the political situation in
regard to myself hasn't really changed I'm
and I would like to hope that the you know there will be a
there will be a chance for a better public discussion about
how we protect whistleblowers from the retaliation government in the United
States and other countries around the world
but the until then I'll have to wait
under which conditions we do go back now
you have a lawyer trying to negotiate a deal with the american government so you
can go back home
what would be the conditions for you to go back now
mind my legal team has a a
a representative for the government contact us to be able to have
discussions of the
government believes we can help our them protect
some material with a they think we can contribute in some way
or if they are interested in a
coming to some kind of resolution that serves the national interest
mom and is fair to all parties which i think is clear I don't think I
United States government gains anything from trapping me in Russia
and I certainly don't prefer to be trapped in a foreign country
%uh but the
as far as conditions that's the that's not for me to say that's up to the
government
to still have some documents with you no
now %uh because I knew I would be traveling to russia
and I know russia has a very sophisticated professional an aggressive
intelligence service
I didn't want there to be any risk espionage or that somebody could ask me
for information
so I destroyed my costlier documents before I transit to russia
that some people in the US senate was published by major newspapers
and speculated that the Chinese had Dr lot laptop
drained before you left China right this was this was a famous
a famous accusation made by members of congress
a who had been embarrassed by these because they were responsible for the
policies that have been revealed
and they needed some kind of %uh some kinda act act some
I response so they said that the I didn't know what I was doing I was
a some guy who had all these laptops for the information information just
spilling out of these computers and I
Wachter China and the they drain them they put a book and Ernest all these
creates but it's it's really crazy because
I was a cybersecurity expert
I talked officials at the Central Intelligence Agency Defense Intelligence
Agency National Security Agency
I how to protect themselves
in areas like China against specifically these kind of things
some members of the congress say that you are a defector
I'm how do you see yourself so
this is another one of those attacks where a
they use the same thing I'm
the government calling someone a defector is very normal it's like a
their reading from a script the bottom line is
you can't be a defector home with your loyalties have changed to in
enemy up the state I and my loyalties haven't changed I worked for the United
States government
even today I work for them people of my country
I don't work against them I don't want to bring down the government I don't
want to destroy the NSA
I want to improve them I want to make them better
would do be winning to face court into US
I would walls to face court in the US if they were formed
the Espionage Act to allow people to make
a real defense right now I'm
its the Espionage Act is a very unusual all
it prohibits people from making certain defenses I can't even argue my case to
the jury i cant say
that I was serving the public interest they don't see a difference
between someone who cells are listed agents name is to have them
executed to an enemy country during a time more
not and someone who takes information about government abuses and gives them
to the press to report in response
way but as it stands now there is no
on there is no chance for me to make a case there is no fair trial waiting for
me at home
18 China and Russia
so I never chose to go to Russia it wasn't a
it was in the final destination I was actually on my way to Latin America
I even had a book it a ticket booked this is public record
there are where to in Latin America Ecuador the time
arm there were %uh pictures of journalists
on the plane to havana from moscow looking at my seat
on but the problem was as I as I wanted to board the plane
the United States had canceled my passport then revoked and said no he
can't travel anymore
because they wanted to freeze me in place and the
at the time they didn't have any effective criticism of me they didn't
have anywhere to go after my reputation
so I believe their political decision was made that if they trapped me in
Russia
they could say he's a Russian spy without having to prove it
I think it was done for political purposes since the moment he you were
spirited away you by those two Chinese lawyers
in hong kong to the moment you could believe
the airport here how was that
how did you go to that period it was
it was incredibly tense you know there was a
there's a level of uncertainty where you don't know what's going to happen
that same night you don't know what's gonna happen when you go to sleep you
don't know there's gonna be knocked on the door you don't know
there's gonna be people who break down the door all you can do
his trust that you were doing the best you can
to do what is right and maybe make some mistake
maybe don't do things perfectly but as long as you're motivated
a to good hands your careful you're responsible
and you make sure that even if you don't the
succeeded in creating some gigantic public benefit
if you at least cause no harm
you can be confident that no matter what happens no matter whether you end up in
jail no matter whether
you rent a dead a you can be confident and comfortable with the decisions you
made and that's how I felt
Jenna musalo German citizenship financial system I'm
entrance I am you have posted on a bus and the bus in 80 David me down that
opening a dodgy Glenn Greenwald for the chip will not be a lot is not aboard the
deal on this
was that the gym deal with his mom it does he have the only and does not
sadness but Edwards loading
bundling up unless you how did you react
when you learned about to David been on the being the pain
at Heathrow Airport I was shocked I mean I don't tell the journalists how to work
/url what to do so I'm not sure exactly how they operate but
it's my understanding that David Moore and it was working for The Guardian
time he was a they had paid for is flying here is
working in the sort of course on a roll for them
and for the British government to accuse someone working as a journalist
I'm gauging in terrorism is a shocking claim
after being trapped at the airport without this kind of pressure
you could relate to the situation right well I think he had a much tougher time
than I did
I but the yeah it's a
not knowing what's going to happen to you losing
your a sensible agency losing your ability to determine your own future is
a
is a deeply intimidating thing
and %uh the fact that he could the remain so committed to his principles in
a situation like that I think so very good things about
the it was that the way you felt camp
well i i I am way about him
about yourself I'll I losing the ability of
heard the term meaning your future to be the agent of your
have absolutely no when I went public in Hong Kong ir a statement that said my
intention was to ask the world for justice
and that's why I made these claims for asylum
when you take your future and you put in someone else's hands like that it's
scary
because you
you have to believe in the goodness of people
every day and every hard decision at every difficult point
how's your life here in Russia you know it's
it's really not as bad as they say there are you know no country is perfect in
russia has some %ah
political policies that I disagree very strongly with
they monitored the Internet in ways I consider inappropriate
I they regulate the press and in ways that I think no government should do
om but my day to day life
you know it's a it's much better than prism can you go out
yeah should wanna you're not sick loses
now well I'm naturally so close above because again child to the Internet
right
I'll some people like his online
right right some people they they wanna go see a
landmarks they want to visit tourist locations
I would rather read I would rather ride I would rather communicate discuss
issues a
with my friends with people I trust %uh and try to build things to try to
engineer
things to try create solutions and and
sorta improve the world around me in the best way that I can
to have her any kind of her
in security %um do the russians
watchu or well you know the
Russian services again I'm sure they're involved in some kind of surveillance
but I don't see it
I'm for me it's not expensive
no arm book for me
and I if I need security I hire security but the
I prefer to be opening an independent
much as I can and I can for safety reasons get into
you know where I live and how it live and how I travel but the
I'm so I remember surprisingly open line
people recognized on the street they recognize me when I go to computer
stores
but yeah you know what I mean I know when I'm in the grocery store when I'm
gonna look at magazines that was like that no no one really recognizes me
you blend in me here you know do you do you
were any disguise for you go out been
it's probably better I just logged in face him probably better if I don't
answer that
and when do you miss most hun
my family of course on I'm
don't I know this young allow the fighters muscle document that is so
badass are just holding
he Glenn Greenwald abotobble the castle damaging Vincent by easy's
delivering singled out but it is one beer while want those bastard what is
this year but ashey speaking animals my office but in addition I Lismore
issue on most journalists they have to fight for months
in order to have a source that will
open up that will give documents
and a good story and in this case
you had to insist for months forget when
ringwald to to install a encryption program
so he could have the documents and
he you almost lost the opportunity of doing do breaking news over a lifetime
yeah I know I think the really the reason why I like to tell the story even
though you know some people say oh it it seems embarrassing for you to tell
on is because it makes me important points what the the reality of what
happened is you know he didn't contact me and say
hi I am Edward snowed and I work at the NSA I have been to many thousands of top
secret documents I would like to give you and I just ignored him
what actually happened was that he was very afraid
in retrospect for reasons that we now all understand we're very valid
that if he were to speak to a journalist without
it being very protected the encryption there's a very good chance that the
United States government would know that he weighs
going to do what he did and so he was very worried and and basically unable to
tell me
anything about what it was that he wanted or what it was that he intended
to do
all he was really saying was very vaguely I he has some things i wanna
talk to you about
and until he told me things that about him and what he had
I wasn't really making a priority and until I made them a priority he couldn't
really talk to me nobody is so
a really underscores on that this surveillance that he has helped bring to
light
is not just up right to privacy and it's not just a threat to democracy that all
takes place in secret it's also a threat to journalism
so it really worked out in the end and he was very persist and he he went to
our porters a course who who did have been corruption and then she involve me
but that difficulty the reason I tell that story is
is to you are encouraged run a less than everybody the use encryption but also to
show how how dangerous on the world today as when the government can know
everybody's talking to everybody else
if I could follow up on that I I would say one of the most important things for
me
about that situation is that it's a case study in how encryption is so important
but also said difficult to use
I nobody's communications are gonna be secure whether they live in Brazil
whether they live in the united states or anywhere else
are unless we all have access to these tools and they're invisible to us
without you having to install programs without you having to learn all these
things but it happens by default
without anybody making special steps because
people naturally we can't be bothered
where you frustrated when he did and installed encryption program
I I think it's a fair to say and I
yes I mean I tried several times several ways but I also expected that there was
a that was a possibility
I mean it's a it's a big ask and it's reasonable everybody expects journalists
to you know have
priorities the too busy people that got stores are working on
and if you're just some guy I saying hey I've got something you need to know but
I need to do this really complex difficult thing
its understandable me and those methods put is no the most times we are giving
blood would you get a good engine
back to know but I sealed where you able to follow those stars from here
II was and I was a fast paid by them
and the reaction to them om
it's amazing that in every country in the world people
highly value privacy nobody wants to be spied on we
we feel the sense a violation and when we think about an object to louco
what were you hoping to find you know there's really no
explanation no justification for the US to be spying on Brazilian oil companies
why does you know the American president
want to read Dilma Rousseff's emails
you know its what's the benefit what's the game
nom now there has been some
on some argument from the president in the United States saying he was unaware
these programs and to some extent that may be true
I he has also whose agreed with me
that these programs are not helpful they don't have any value that they haven't
saved many lives they have in promoting the interests of the United States
and for that reason he ended he said now we wireless plan these people to stop to
stop its not helpful
were you able to watch president to deal less speech
at the UN I was inspired by that speech was incredible because
a the Brazilian President was the first president
I I think that took a very strong leadership role
on saying we handsome
a right
to be left alone we have a right to speak we have a right to communicate we
have a right to associate freely without being monitor without being watched
'em and these are not civic rights these are not national rights these are human
rights
the the progress that we've seen in Brazil with the passenger bills by
Marcus Adam
com are extraordinary but they're only the beginning they don't go far enough
we can just give speeches we can just passed national laws we can just make
small changes
we have to create an international standard
to which our rights are respected their code if I didn't law
and they're enforced through that standards have our technology
how do you think that we as individuals
and society as a community can
protect ourselves I guess this
soul one of the biggest solutions to this
is technical I'm we need governments to invest
in education and research I
in mathematics hi in technology that will allow us to secure communications
not just in some city not just for some service
but for the entire world and the way we do that is through
advances in technology and the standards that are used to secure them the
standards that we all agree to communicate by
because Brazil could pass the best law in the world for protecting their their
citizens privacy
but as soon as a Brazilian citizens emails
leaves the borders a Brazilian goes to another country that country has the
choice are gonna do I followed this law doing outcalls law
nobody'll not home if we enforce
our values through technology
I that problem is solved every now and then
American press has that to you would offer Brazil
information in exchange for asylum is that an offer 100
on the table absolutely not I could not be more clear
for some I don't have any documents offer secondly even if I
did I would never trade secret information or cooperate with some
government
in exchange for asylum asylum has to be granted on humanitarian grounds it has
been granted
to protect political rights for the right to safety
com this whole topic about sort of the
negotiating for asylum i think is improper if Brazil
a wants to offer asylum
if they want to stand for human rights if they want to protect the rights of
whistleblowers
I think that's a good thing I would certainly since bankers and supported
whether it's in my case from the case and I'm mom
but I would never engage in any kinda sorta deal or a quid pro quo exchange
it's been a year since the first revelation and very soon it's gonna be a
year since you're
asylum here was granted and
what's next when did expires
mice I long does and I believe the very beginning of August
I and I still do need to receive permits I'm
I and if Brazil
and the petition and the efforts there a home
brazil is the country that I would love to go and I would love to live in Brazil
and home you know if 1.2 million brazilians
%uh would like to invite me I I would definitely welcome their
invitation be happy to accept them and in fact I I already are
sent a petition to the Brazilian government requesting asylum
so they chose to offer I would definitely accept so you did send the
request
absolutely aback when I was in the airport I sent requests a countries
around the world
Brazil was one of them was a formal request but the president diplomacy said
they never got the request
lemme and thats means to me it could be a
a maybe there's some procedure they say was involved in many countries have said
that you have to be
in their national territory to apply for asylum maybe they've done that
maybe that's something for people to follow up on who knows
tens of thousands of NSA's employees
people working poor national security forces by agencies
in the US do you feel like you're a divergent
no actually I think a
the people who work for the NSA the people who work for all these different
organizations they're good people
trying to do good things in a hard time
with a lot more like great choices the problem is not
the people at the working level the problem are not the rank-and-file
employees
the problem are the senior officials for setting policies and they're making bad
decisions to making bad policies into creating on lawful programs
that they know can't be defended so they use secrecy
to protect themselves from embarrassment and accountability
rather than to protect nation from any kind of real threat
and that's a critical problem that we need reform but I know for a fact
but there are other employees around the intelligence community in the United
States
who were deeply concerned not settled untroubled by the same programs I was
because
anybody who looks these programs regardless of whether you work for the
NSA where the work for NBC
can see that these these go too far
there is a there's harlem align
between what is necessary and appropriate and what we're doing simply
because we can
and the president himself has said the time in which we do things
because we can support for
just because we can do something doesn't mean we should and I agree with that
do you think that a the way be in SA operates
is really helpful to fight terrorism
it's not of Ishant it's definitely not a fission and it's definitely not
effective and you don't have to trust me to say that
on the first court in the United States to review this program in the open
found that these programs had never stopped a single attacker save the
single life from United States mankind
imminent terrorist attack they also said it was were well and and in scope and
violated the rights of everyone in the country
not the president PVR the president commercial
to independent White House investigations with full access to
classified information
to look at everything the NSA had done with these programs and to see
was there any unique value the justified continuing these programs they said
there was not
and the program should be ended one of those investigation said the program had
no basis in law at all
never should have been gone and the congress
a in the United States both houses are now saying
these programs need to be reformed they need to be handed him
protections need to be instituted to make sure something like this never
happens again
I think that's an incredible statement an incredible rejection of the fact that
these programs are necessary and appropriate for defending
terrorism because if they were when all three branches of the american
government be saying we need to tandem
are you happy I am I have it's a
it's been an incredible challenge it's been a really tough year
I worked harder than I think I've ever worked before and you know him
it is hard for me to to be separated from my family
to be unable to go home to be able to
participate in my government and my society is
fully as I'd like to but at the same time I can go to sleep every night and
be confident
that the choices I made even when I was really hard
or what I from where the right choices time
and because of that I came home I can wake up every morning with a sense of
satisfaction
with my them