1 00:00:00,006 --> 00:00:00,356 [ Music ] 2 00:00:00,356 --> 00:00:17,066 Clive Finlayson is Director of the Gibraltar Museum, 3 00:00:17,066 --> 00:00:19,986 and one of the world's foremost experts on the behavior 4 00:00:20,186 --> 00:00:21,506 of the latest Neandertals. 5 00:00:22,316 --> 00:00:25,346 He took me into Gorham's cave at the base of the Rock 6 00:00:25,346 --> 00:00:27,486 of Gibraltar, and in the back of the cave, 7 00:00:27,486 --> 00:00:29,426 where some of the most interesting evidence 8 00:00:29,426 --> 00:00:32,896 of late Neandertals have been found, we had a conversation 9 00:00:32,896 --> 00:00:36,016 about how Neandertals were fitting into their ecology 10 00:00:36,246 --> 00:00:38,696 and what factors may have led to their disappearance. 11 00:00:39,456 --> 00:00:45,736 We're here in the Gorham's cave, and this is the place right now, 12 00:00:45,736 --> 00:00:47,926 where we have the most recent dates 13 00:00:47,926 --> 00:00:49,646 for Neandertals anywhere in the world. 14 00:00:49,646 --> 00:00:50,246 That's right. 15 00:00:50,376 --> 00:00:53,236 It came as a surprise to us. 16 00:00:54,106 --> 00:00:56,486 Back in 2005, it was published in '06, 17 00:00:57,686 --> 00:00:59,086 we weren't looking for late Neandertals. 18 00:00:59,086 --> 00:01:00,956 We just decided that this part 19 00:01:00,956 --> 00:01:02,636 of the cave never had been excavated. 20 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:04,706 And we went through a series of levels, 21 00:01:05,236 --> 00:01:07,276 there's four levels here, identifiable, 22 00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:10,276 the most recent one at the top is Phoenician-Carthaginian, 23 00:01:10,326 --> 00:01:12,116 then you've got a Neolithic level, 24 00:01:12,236 --> 00:01:14,616 then you've got a Paleolithic represented by Magdalenian 25 00:01:14,616 --> 00:01:17,506 and Solutrean, and below you have the Neandertal level 26 00:01:17,506 --> 00:01:18,726 with Mousterian. 27 00:01:19,296 --> 00:01:22,836 And we came across a hearth, in that corner down there, 28 00:01:23,046 --> 00:01:25,476 you know, like the ones that you see in our site, that kind of, 29 00:01:25,476 --> 00:01:28,696 real structure, structured hearth, so we decided to, 30 00:01:28,696 --> 00:01:32,136 to radio-carbon date, so we sent some, from the different parts 31 00:01:32,136 --> 00:01:35,376 of each, of the hearth, some charcoals for dating. 32 00:01:36,056 --> 00:01:38,646 And when the results came back, we thought now, this was wrong, 33 00:01:40,026 --> 00:01:43,676 precisely because they looked very young. 34 00:01:43,936 --> 00:01:46,386 So we just kept quiet about this and came back 35 00:01:46,386 --> 00:01:48,686 and took more samples, and did it again. 36 00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:50,936 And the same results came back. 37 00:01:51,306 --> 00:01:55,296 And, you know, we're still working in this level and, 38 00:01:55,346 --> 00:01:58,176 and other things, we're trying to use other techniques, 39 00:01:58,176 --> 00:02:01,936 as well, to, to date the level, to strengthen that information, 40 00:02:02,226 --> 00:02:05,686 but we're very confident that we have here is at the time we, 41 00:02:05,846 --> 00:02:07,826 we published it as 28,000 years ago, 42 00:02:08,016 --> 00:02:10,896 those are un-calibrated dates, because the, 43 00:02:10,896 --> 00:02:13,276 the calibration curve for that period was not available, 44 00:02:13,276 --> 00:02:13,966 and now it is. 45 00:02:14,436 --> 00:02:16,926 So, basically, those dates now translate 46 00:02:16,926 --> 00:02:19,386 to around 31-32,000 years ago. 47 00:02:19,806 --> 00:02:22,846 And that just still makes them the, the last known Neandertals 48 00:02:22,846 --> 00:02:24,076 to have lived on the planet, 49 00:02:24,186 --> 00:02:26,466 it doesn't mean the last Neandertals lived here 50 00:02:26,466 --> 00:02:29,256 necessarily, but it's where the evidence is and, you know, 51 00:02:29,446 --> 00:02:32,886 we think that this reflects a refuge, a coastal refuge, 52 00:02:32,886 --> 00:02:35,116 that would probably stretch from here to Portugal, 53 00:02:35,166 --> 00:02:39,406 which had a lot of advantages promoting late survival 54 00:02:39,406 --> 00:02:41,026 and also survival of many other species. 55 00:02:41,346 --> 00:02:44,436 This cannot be seen out of context, in ecological terms. 56 00:02:44,436 --> 00:02:47,376 Lots of species that, later on, recolonize Europe, 57 00:02:47,376 --> 00:02:49,256 parts of Europe, literally survived 58 00:02:49,256 --> 00:02:51,276 through the glacial periods in this part of the world. 59 00:02:51,356 --> 00:02:55,496 And there, we've got a lot of strong evidence from pollen, 60 00:02:55,566 --> 00:02:59,276 from marine mollusks, from the fauna, that shows that even 61 00:02:59,276 --> 00:03:02,996 at the heights of the glacial maximum, when, you know, 62 00:03:03,416 --> 00:03:06,516 Britain was 2 kilometers at the rise and, and the buildup 63 00:03:06,516 --> 00:03:08,386 to that, which when the Neandertals go extinct, 64 00:03:09,466 --> 00:03:10,726 you know, you might have that, 65 00:03:10,726 --> 00:03:12,656 you don't find a single wooly mammoth here. 66 00:03:13,036 --> 00:03:15,036 You don't find a reindeer, nothing representative 67 00:03:15,146 --> 00:03:16,816 of cold fauna reaches this. 68 00:03:17,086 --> 00:03:18,126 And they're close by, 69 00:03:18,126 --> 00:03:19,476 but they're not here in the, in the coast. 70 00:03:20,016 --> 00:03:21,836 And yet, you have olives growing, 71 00:03:21,836 --> 00:03:24,426 and you have all the species which are indicators, 72 00:03:24,426 --> 00:03:29,136 Hermann's tortoise which needs 17 Celsius annual temperature 73 00:03:29,166 --> 00:03:30,906 to reproduce, they're still here. 74 00:03:30,906 --> 00:03:32,856 So, so this idea of a refuge fits 75 00:03:32,856 --> 00:03:34,836 in with this late Neandertal survival. 76 00:03:34,966 --> 00:03:37,626 But we found it here, and then we started to think, well, 77 00:03:38,076 --> 00:03:40,516 you know, why was this place so important 78 00:03:40,516 --> 00:03:41,696 for the Neandertals' location, 79 00:03:41,696 --> 00:03:46,256 because the dates weren't just 32, they'd gone to 33, 34, 35, 80 00:03:46,486 --> 00:03:48,216 so they keep coming over and over 81 00:03:48,216 --> 00:03:49,826 and using this, this fire, now. 82 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:53,636 For some, most Neandertal sites, I think the hearths tend 83 00:03:53,636 --> 00:03:55,606 to be like, like the entrance of Gorham's, 84 00:03:55,906 --> 00:03:56,766 they tend to be on the outside. 85 00:03:56,766 --> 00:03:58,276 You don't want to smoke in your rock shelter 86 00:03:58,356 --> 00:04:00,776 or your cave, but here they do. 87 00:04:00,776 --> 00:04:01,946 We're quite deep in the cave here. 88 00:04:02,006 --> 00:04:04,106 Yeah, we are probably a hundred meters 89 00:04:04,106 --> 00:04:05,616 from the entrance, longer maybe. 90 00:04:05,616 --> 00:04:07,926 Well, yeah, there's a significance difference 91 00:04:07,926 --> 00:04:10,946 in distance, I mean, maybe, maybe 50 to 60 meters, at least. 92 00:04:11,406 --> 00:04:15,826 And you can see the light, even now, comes into the back 93 00:04:16,006 --> 00:04:17,516 of the cave, why would you put a fire here? 94 00:04:17,516 --> 00:04:19,146 Well, it's the narrowest point in the cave, 95 00:04:19,336 --> 00:04:23,356 so that may give you a hint, and what would happen to the smoke? 96 00:04:23,356 --> 00:04:26,336 Well, if we go look right out, it's like a natural chimney. 97 00:04:26,656 --> 00:04:29,176 So the smoke would have risen that way. 98 00:04:29,176 --> 00:04:32,546 So, it would be a good place, with hyenas roaming up there 99 00:04:32,546 --> 00:04:35,746 and leopards and all kinds of wolves, to retire to, 100 00:04:35,746 --> 00:04:39,286 even when you got activities outside, retire to the night, 101 00:04:40,096 --> 00:04:41,766 light the fire, you're not going 102 00:04:41,766 --> 00:04:43,296 to smoke yourself in, and you're protected. 103 00:04:43,416 --> 00:04:46,176 But it looks pretty confined in here for a group, 104 00:04:46,656 --> 00:04:49,496 but of course it wasn't like this, because if you look 105 00:04:49,496 --> 00:04:53,416 in there, okay, this is what Captain Gorham found in 1907. 106 00:04:54,076 --> 00:04:56,006 That's, you need to crawl through, 107 00:04:56,536 --> 00:04:59,206 Geraldine did it many years ago, I haven't actually gone 108 00:04:59,206 --> 00:05:01,126 to the end because it's extremely narrow, 109 00:05:01,326 --> 00:05:04,506 but what we're doing is excavating down, and that goes 110 00:05:04,506 --> 00:05:07,356 on for 35 meters - another 35 meters. 111 00:05:07,356 --> 00:05:10,096 So there would have been a huge chamber here 112 00:05:10,976 --> 00:05:15,196 where the Neandertals would have had relative comfort and safety. 113 00:05:15,326 --> 00:05:16,516 So we think that's the story. 114 00:05:17,096 --> 00:05:18,406 But the story doesn't end there. 115 00:05:18,406 --> 00:05:21,226 You know, if we forgot Neandertals and modern humans, 116 00:05:21,226 --> 00:05:22,916 their taxonomy, just think of people. 117 00:05:22,916 --> 00:05:23,896 What happens? 118 00:05:23,896 --> 00:05:27,366 Well, these early people, the Neandertals disappear one day, 119 00:05:27,366 --> 00:05:29,846 they don't come back, later on after a break, 120 00:05:30,136 --> 00:05:32,266 other people come Solutreans, modern humans, 121 00:05:32,586 --> 00:05:34,006 some people would like to call them. 122 00:05:34,006 --> 00:05:36,826 People, and they do almost the same, because look, here's, 123 00:05:37,146 --> 00:05:39,886 we haven't excavated yet, there's that structure there, 124 00:05:40,186 --> 00:05:43,226 it's a hearth, we can even see bones there, little rabbit 125 00:05:43,226 --> 00:05:45,556 or something, so they're putting a fire almost 126 00:05:45,556 --> 00:05:48,626 in the same position, probably for similar reasons. 127 00:05:48,696 --> 00:05:53,326 And if you crawl to the back of the cave, it's very exciting, 128 00:05:53,326 --> 00:05:55,866 because what you find at the back there is, so far, 129 00:05:56,126 --> 00:05:58,386 there's this painted stack, beautiful, 130 00:05:58,386 --> 00:06:00,296 like the ones you would see in Northern Spain and France, 131 00:06:00,726 --> 00:06:03,246 and two hands, you know, these negative, where then, 132 00:06:03,246 --> 00:06:04,646 people have, then you know, 133 00:06:04,756 --> 00:06:06,826 in the children's hands, on charcoal. 134 00:06:07,006 --> 00:06:10,866 And we haven't published this yet, but there's no mystery 135 00:06:10,866 --> 00:06:12,726 to this, but we took a sample from that, 136 00:06:12,726 --> 00:06:14,246 and it gives a date of 20,000. 137 00:06:14,426 --> 00:06:16,436 So 20,000 years ago, the Solutreans came 138 00:06:16,586 --> 00:06:19,556 and replaced the Neandertal or, or came after the Neandertals. 139 00:06:19,596 --> 00:06:21,436 We're almost doing the same thing 140 00:06:21,436 --> 00:06:22,726 as the Neandertals were doing before them. 141 00:06:22,726 --> 00:06:23,956 Just the context right? 142 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:26,156 20,000 years ago, less glacial maximum, 143 00:06:26,426 --> 00:06:30,786 you've got the same situation as had recurred, you know, 144 00:06:30,886 --> 00:06:34,366 again and again, and again, you've got people down here, 145 00:06:34,366 --> 00:06:38,616 they're using this because it is a kind of place 146 00:06:38,616 --> 00:06:39,486 where people can live, yeah. 147 00:06:39,656 --> 00:06:41,636 Yeah, and when you look at, for example, the, 148 00:06:41,956 --> 00:06:45,146 the profile of the bones that come out with cutmarks, 149 00:06:45,146 --> 00:06:48,576 the species, compositions and so on, the shellfish, you know, 150 00:06:48,576 --> 00:06:50,986 the mollusks that, that Darren's been looking at, 151 00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:52,926 the plants that Geraldine's been looking at. 152 00:06:54,246 --> 00:06:57,006 If you were given, if you looked at the modern human level, 153 00:06:57,006 --> 00:06:58,866 shall we say, and the proceeding Neandertal level, 154 00:06:59,196 --> 00:07:01,916 and you weren't told which it was, 155 00:07:02,356 --> 00:07:03,796 there is no practically no difference. 156 00:07:03,846 --> 00:07:06,776 The, the correlations are, you know, the, 157 00:07:06,826 --> 00:07:10,036 the variance explained, this is close to 90 percent. 158 00:07:10,036 --> 00:07:12,256 I mean, it's, you couldn't tell the difference, 159 00:07:12,296 --> 00:07:15,146 maybe the paintings on the walls, other than that, 160 00:07:15,146 --> 00:07:18,616 you couldn't tell the difference from the foreigner 161 00:07:19,166 --> 00:07:21,176 and the, the processing of. 162 00:07:21,606 --> 00:07:23,876 Right. There are different traditions. 163 00:07:24,366 --> 00:07:26,946 They're different peoples, you know, even, even if, 164 00:07:26,946 --> 00:07:29,956 even if Neandertals contributed to later people, they're, 165 00:07:29,956 --> 00:07:31,346 they're far apart in time. 166 00:07:31,666 --> 00:07:36,326 They're not, they're not [pause] information inheritors, 167 00:07:36,416 --> 00:07:38,056 of the Neandertals, necessarily, 168 00:07:38,376 --> 00:07:40,786 but they're ecological inheritors in the sense 169 00:07:40,786 --> 00:07:42,136 that they're using the same stuff. 170 00:07:42,326 --> 00:07:44,936 Yeah, I mean, they may have had different fashions, 171 00:07:44,936 --> 00:07:47,436 cultural differences, which we sometimes confuse 172 00:07:47,436 --> 00:07:49,996 for biological differences, after all, you know, 173 00:07:50,126 --> 00:07:52,496 we talking thousands of years later, 174 00:07:53,456 --> 00:07:59,356 but faced with similar ecology, the solutions are going 175 00:07:59,356 --> 00:08:03,016 to be very similar, and essentially, they go out, 176 00:08:03,246 --> 00:08:06,466 look out of the window, and they have a choice, and they exploit 177 00:08:06,506 --> 00:08:07,986 that choice, in a very similar way. 178 00:08:07,986 --> 00:08:10,606 Aand I think that when we look at past interpretations 179 00:08:10,606 --> 00:08:14,036 of subsistance strategies in Neandertals versus modern humans 180 00:08:14,036 --> 00:08:19,016 and so on, very often, we are confusing context with taxonomy, 181 00:08:19,016 --> 00:08:22,476 or with, with the phylogenetics if you like, and very often, 182 00:08:22,476 --> 00:08:25,036 what you see, the differences have more to do with the place 183 00:08:25,516 --> 00:08:28,496 and the way things are exploited rather than who they are. 184 00:08:28,836 --> 00:08:30,586 When you come to places like this, 185 00:08:31,186 --> 00:08:34,266 where the context changes little, the taxonomy changes, 186 00:08:34,476 --> 00:08:36,476 but the way of exploiting the environment is very similar. 187 00:08:36,866 --> 00:08:39,136 So with humans, when we talk 188 00:08:39,136 --> 00:08:41,596 about human biology being a combination of genes 189 00:08:41,596 --> 00:08:46,576 and environment, we could also maybe extend to say when we look 190 00:08:46,576 --> 00:08:50,756 at human behavior, in the archeological context, it's, 191 00:08:50,756 --> 00:08:54,106 it's not only a combination of, of genes and environment, 192 00:08:54,326 --> 00:08:57,526 you know, the psychological systems and so on, it's also, 193 00:08:57,526 --> 00:08:59,706 very particularly, the microenvironment. 194 00:09:00,086 --> 00:09:03,096 So around this site there are certain kinds of activities 195 00:09:03,146 --> 00:09:05,966 that make sense and you see those sites being used 196 00:09:05,966 --> 00:09:06,546 for that reason. 197 00:09:06,686 --> 00:09:10,806 It, it sounds deterministic, which pushes it up to a point, 198 00:09:11,136 --> 00:09:16,446 but it's, it's more about having a choice and exploiting 199 00:09:16,446 --> 00:09:18,846 that choice as an intelligence hominin, 200 00:09:18,916 --> 00:09:22,226 and very often you're going to be doing similar things, 201 00:09:22,296 --> 00:09:24,626 because, because of the choices that are available to you. 202 00:09:24,806 --> 00:09:28,796 So you, your able to, to, but, by and large, 203 00:09:29,076 --> 00:09:32,326 the ecology tends to, in some way guide you, and, 204 00:09:32,326 --> 00:09:34,096 and it's, it's the 'larder' . 205 00:09:34,176 --> 00:09:37,006 You've got a larder up there, and it's like at home, you know, 206 00:09:37,046 --> 00:09:39,066 you open the fridge and you have certain things. 207 00:09:39,276 --> 00:09:41,946 And one day you might choose one or might choose another, 208 00:09:41,946 --> 00:09:43,366 but you're going to be eating what's in the fridge 209 00:09:43,596 --> 00:09:44,666 or what's in the supermarket. 210 00:09:45,066 --> 00:09:46,066 So it's similar. 211 00:09:46,426 --> 00:09:48,766 So, why are we not Neandertals? 212 00:09:49,476 --> 00:09:50,906 You know, what, what accounts for the fact 213 00:09:50,906 --> 00:09:54,066 that Neandertals had their time and, 214 00:09:54,176 --> 00:09:56,416 and then later you see different kinds of people here? 215 00:09:58,166 --> 00:10:00,676 Yeah, I mean, there's some would argue that there's an element 216 00:10:00,676 --> 00:10:02,466 of Neandertals in us still today. 217 00:10:02,466 --> 00:10:03,616 Well there absolutely is, right? 218 00:10:03,616 --> 00:10:05,816 Your, you, everybody watching this is going 219 00:10:05,816 --> 00:10:07,656 to know my attitude about this, so, so [laughter]. 220 00:10:07,966 --> 00:10:10,506 But it would mean that Neandertals didn't disappear, 221 00:10:10,506 --> 00:10:13,336 but I think we would agree that the phenotype. 222 00:10:13,336 --> 00:10:13,726 That's it, yeah. 223 00:10:13,726 --> 00:10:15,306 Of the Neandertal is no longer around. 224 00:10:15,306 --> 00:10:16,016 That's right. 225 00:10:16,016 --> 00:10:18,286 That was a population that had its day. 226 00:10:18,286 --> 00:10:23,336 And, and its day ended, and, and that, I think, is so fascinating 227 00:10:23,336 --> 00:10:28,126 to people, obviously, but, but in a way, fundamentally, 228 00:10:28,536 --> 00:10:32,666 you know, this place is maybe the most information we have 229 00:10:32,666 --> 00:10:33,376 anywhere about it. 230 00:10:33,916 --> 00:10:37,036 I mean, the point is why did they disappear, and, well, 231 00:10:38,916 --> 00:10:41,186 we assume, maybe 232 00:10:41,226 --> 00:10:43,216 from present-day genetics looking backwards, 233 00:10:43,666 --> 00:10:46,056 that we were our species was successful, 234 00:10:46,056 --> 00:10:48,996 but how many population, of our populations never made it, 235 00:10:48,996 --> 00:10:50,596 I mean, the Neandertals never made it, 236 00:10:50,646 --> 00:10:52,056 so, for similar reasons. 237 00:10:52,056 --> 00:10:54,526 So to what degree has this got to do with being good or bad 238 00:10:54,526 --> 00:10:57,096 or simply the luck of the draw? 239 00:10:57,096 --> 00:10:59,146 I think a lot of it had to with the luck of the draw. 240 00:10:59,146 --> 00:11:01,326 I'm a great believer that the chance events 241 00:11:01,326 --> 00:11:03,306 in small population can make a difference. 242 00:11:03,436 --> 00:11:04,316 And I think these, 243 00:11:04,316 --> 00:11:06,576 these Neandertal populations had been hit hard 244 00:11:07,076 --> 00:11:09,806 across the continent over and over again by climate change, 245 00:11:09,856 --> 00:11:13,406 to a large degree, altering their habitats, 246 00:11:13,506 --> 00:11:15,936 altering the way, you know, the, the kind of environments 247 00:11:15,936 --> 00:11:18,256 that they were good at exploiting, until you ended 248 00:11:18,256 --> 00:11:20,496 up with a series of population, maybe one here, 249 00:11:20,496 --> 00:11:22,146 maybe one here [inaudible], maybe one somewhere else, 250 00:11:22,146 --> 00:11:23,976 maybe one in Siberia, we don't know. 251 00:11:24,136 --> 00:11:26,766 And, and the point is, it's like pandas or tigers, 252 00:11:26,766 --> 00:11:29,526 once your population's reached such low numbers, 253 00:11:29,936 --> 00:11:33,296 even if the conditions are good out there, you're living dead, 254 00:11:33,296 --> 00:11:35,986 you're going to go extinct for, for, purely for genetic reason, 255 00:11:35,986 --> 00:11:38,886 inbreeding or numbers, you're numbers are so small that one 256 00:11:38,886 --> 00:11:40,596 of these random fluctuations and you're out, 257 00:11:40,806 --> 00:11:42,496 and there's no recovery from extinction. 258 00:11:42,496 --> 00:11:45,986 Once you go below 0, then that's it, or you reach 0. 259 00:11:46,526 --> 00:11:48,496 This is what we call an absorbing state [laughter]. 260 00:11:49,086 --> 00:11:53,386 So, but there were other populations, 261 00:11:53,556 --> 00:11:55,846 and one of those happened to expand, 262 00:11:56,166 --> 00:11:59,476 or a series of them expanded and colonized certain parts 263 00:11:59,476 --> 00:12:02,126 of Europe, and made it through that particular stage. 264 00:12:02,416 --> 00:12:04,366 I don't think we need to look further than that. 265 00:12:04,366 --> 00:12:06,486 I think that's a huge element of that. 266 00:12:06,486 --> 00:12:09,156 You have a lot of populations of people, some characteristic, 267 00:12:09,156 --> 00:12:10,336 with a characteristic of Neandertals. 268 00:12:10,946 --> 00:12:13,736 Probably with their morphology better suited to sort of kind 269 00:12:13,736 --> 00:12:16,956 of ambush hunting in, in the kind of environments 270 00:12:17,156 --> 00:12:18,286 that we had up to Gorham's cave. 271 00:12:18,286 --> 00:12:20,396 Maybe they weren't so good as large-scale roaming 272 00:12:20,806 --> 00:12:23,816 over the open steppes, treeless steppes, maybe there was a, 273 00:12:23,936 --> 00:12:28,036 a mechanical constraint there or [inaudible] constraint. 274 00:12:28,526 --> 00:12:31,136 Maybe some of these other people may be coming from the plains 275 00:12:31,216 --> 00:12:35,566 in Africa or somewhere, where, I hate to use the word adaptive, 276 00:12:35,566 --> 00:12:37,876 but their morphology was better suited to large-scale roaming, 277 00:12:38,256 --> 00:12:40,026 and at a particular time 278 00:12:40,476 --> 00:12:43,306 when open steppe habitats were spreading, they, 279 00:12:43,376 --> 00:12:45,846 they reached all the way to, to Central Spain. 280 00:12:45,846 --> 00:12:47,966 I mean, you would get saiga antelopes, which you have to go 281 00:12:47,966 --> 00:12:51,686 to Central Asia to find, you find the evidence of them there. 282 00:12:51,686 --> 00:12:53,156 Or they were just tracking resources, 283 00:12:53,236 --> 00:12:55,026 the kinds of resources and the way of life that, 284 00:12:55,236 --> 00:12:57,596 that these other people, but the story here shows you 285 00:12:57,596 --> 00:12:58,186 something else. 286 00:12:58,346 --> 00:13:01,646 When those, people used to exploiting these open plains 287 00:13:01,646 --> 00:13:04,086 and so on, come to this kind of environment, 288 00:13:04,906 --> 00:13:06,676 they adopt the Neandertal way. 289 00:13:06,716 --> 00:13:08,336 Yeah, yeah. 290 00:13:08,416 --> 00:13:11,086 So there is that flexibility, as well. 291 00:13:11,086 --> 00:13:11,816 Context again. 292 00:13:12,526 --> 00:13:15,426 Now, before we leave this part of the cave, I just want to ask 293 00:13:15,426 --> 00:13:19,736 about Carthaginians, because this cave is, you know, 294 00:13:19,736 --> 00:13:22,206 has continuously been open to the outside 295 00:13:22,616 --> 00:13:26,456 and people have used this cave throughout the ages and, 296 00:13:26,456 --> 00:13:31,606 in particular, in historic times, so, we're famously on one 297 00:13:31,606 --> 00:13:32,686 of the Pillars of Hercules [laughing], 298 00:13:33,096 --> 00:13:36,296 and there were rituals going on in here. 299 00:13:36,406 --> 00:13:38,516 Yeah, this is the exciting thing, 300 00:13:38,516 --> 00:13:41,756 when you start working here, the very top, the most recent level, 301 00:13:41,936 --> 00:13:44,676 we've got a very well dated, it starts in the 8th century, BC, 302 00:13:44,816 --> 00:13:48,006 through till the time of the Romans in the 2nd century. 303 00:13:48,466 --> 00:13:49,856 And people are coming here. 304 00:13:49,856 --> 00:13:52,326 First it's Phoenicians from present day Lebanon, 305 00:13:52,326 --> 00:13:53,606 [inaudible], they're coming all the way here. 306 00:13:53,606 --> 00:13:56,446 And then the Carthaginians' they set up their, their descendants 307 00:13:56,446 --> 00:13:59,806 in Carthage and near Tunisia, and the Western Mediterranean, 308 00:14:00,246 --> 00:14:02,326 and it seems that, you know, this is one of the columns. 309 00:14:02,636 --> 00:14:03,716 The other one is in North Africa. 310 00:14:03,716 --> 00:14:06,716 It's very visible, it's the end of the world. 311 00:14:06,796 --> 00:14:09,306 In theory, because we know they're going across, 312 00:14:09,496 --> 00:14:12,116 so you have to make offerings and, and worship. 313 00:14:12,456 --> 00:14:16,296 A lot of intact ceramics, a lot of votive offerings, scarabs, 314 00:14:17,436 --> 00:14:19,346 show an international dimension to the cave. 315 00:14:19,626 --> 00:14:21,516 But the time, of course, the sea level is where it tis now, 316 00:14:21,566 --> 00:14:23,116 so they were beaching the boats and coming up. 317 00:14:23,576 --> 00:14:27,346 But you find Corinthian, Athenian ceramics, you find some 318 00:14:27,346 --> 00:14:29,496 of the scarabs or, or the Egyptian hieroglyphs, 319 00:14:29,776 --> 00:14:33,576 so it's from, you know, it, it's a shrine to the gods, 320 00:14:34,136 --> 00:14:38,656 possibly [inaudible] the precursor of Heracles 321 00:14:38,846 --> 00:14:39,886 and eventually Hercules, 322 00:14:39,886 --> 00:14:43,396 so the columns may have been initially a male cat, but, 323 00:14:43,906 --> 00:14:47,126 you know, I, I see something here that also tells me 324 00:14:47,126 --> 00:14:50,996 about the human mind, and how little it's changed the way 325 00:14:50,996 --> 00:14:51,436 we think. 326 00:14:52,186 --> 00:14:55,476 It's quite clear that the Carthaginians were going beyond 327 00:14:55,476 --> 00:14:56,196 the end of the world. 328 00:14:56,436 --> 00:14:59,276 It's quite clear they were going and, and trading with the, 329 00:14:59,276 --> 00:15:02,056 the native peoples for metals and minerals. 330 00:15:02,096 --> 00:15:05,356 There may have been an element of perpetuating the myth, 331 00:15:05,496 --> 00:15:07,196 perpetuating the myth to corner of the markets. 332 00:15:07,586 --> 00:15:10,356 And prevent the Greeks and others from going beyond the end 333 00:15:10,356 --> 00:15:12,466 of the world [laughter], so this, 334 00:15:12,466 --> 00:15:14,376 this may have a greater significance 335 00:15:14,376 --> 00:15:17,126 than the purely spiritual and religious, but that's my take. 336 00:15:17,306 --> 00:15:19,466 They were like paleoanthropologists [laughter]. 337 00:15:19,916 --> 00:15:23,376 Perpetuate the myth that things were very rare 338 00:15:23,376 --> 00:15:26,136 and we should keep them hidden so that we can have them. 339 00:15:26,626 --> 00:15:28,746 So anyway, so that's, that's my take on it. 340 00:15:28,746 --> 00:15:32,136 But the fact is it's nice to have a cave with, you know, 341 00:15:32,136 --> 00:15:35,176 it's 18 meters in vertical deposit, we know so far. 342 00:15:35,656 --> 00:15:37,526 16 and a half of those are Neandertals. 343 00:15:37,656 --> 00:15:41,376 Then you've got maybe another bit, which is modern human, 344 00:15:41,866 --> 00:15:45,146 pre and post glaciation, maybe have a bit of Neolithic, 345 00:15:45,146 --> 00:15:47,286 and that at the end of this, the little icing on the cake, 346 00:15:47,286 --> 00:15:50,856 that little, thin layer which represents 400-500 years 347 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:52,286 of these people coming here. 348 00:15:52,446 --> 00:15:55,326 And here we are living on top of our history, as we always do. 349 00:15:55,326 --> 00:15:56,966 This is our little time machine. 350 00:15:57,046 --> 00:16:00,206 This is the nearest thing we've got to, to time traveling. 351 00:16:00,506 --> 00:16:01,786 Okay, alright.