[man humming softly]
Babe, can youbehave yourself?
You don't get to --you don't get to be
the bad guy.
Baby, someone hasto be the bad guy.
Yeah, not --not --
Otherwise, people can'tdefine themselves.
They'll justbe lost.
[whispers]Okay.
Please , we hadone deal .
I'll do my --okay.
I will, yes.
You had a deal.
I will try.
♪grooving bassand drum beat♪
Up until veryrecently...
if he were to sortof tell you...
the story of our...
intimate life...
Mm-hm.
He would say thatwe're -- we just --
we're totallyincompatible...
and thatwe have --
That you're sexuallyincompatible?
Yes, that we're sexuallyincompatible,
especially in termsof appetite.
Mm-hm.
And I --
[Orna] What's theincompatibility?
Well, like Inever want it
and he alwayswants it.
I view...sexa lot of ways.
I -- I see itlike, uh --
like eating andlike sleeping.
I have to do itevery day.
So, the ideathat, like,
you had sexyesterday...
is sort of like sayingyou ate yesterday.
I appreciatethat,
I'm glad I ateyesterday...
but today'stoday.
But I didn't...approachher like this,
like, "Hey...
it's...schedule."
Like, there wouldbe none of that.
Yeah, you did.
Wait, I -- I wantto get to the --
the essence.
-I really didn't.-Okay.
And I don't evenview it that way.
The way I thinkabout it is that...
that actually justmakes great sense.
It's what you'resupposed to do.
It's what --it --
it's what...my bodywants to do,
and I am in agreementwith my body.
Like, wejust -- we...
agree on thiscompletely.
I don't see how anyonecan disagree with that.
Like, I don't evenunderstand...
the idea, like..."I don't want to."
It doesn't evenmake sense to me.
-Mm-hm.-I'm like...
something's clearlywrong with you.
Look, there's a bigpart of me...
that really...
and has formany years,
told himto fuck off
and told him, like,"This is impo--
Yeah, you're notasking for anything,
but you're asking for sexthree times a day.
What do you mean, you'renot asking for anything?
You know, you're ask --I'm a person ...
who has to...
you know, uh --[laughs]
Whew! Anyway...
if you hadmet us
-ten years ago ---Mm-hm.
I would have saidthat I thought
-he had a sex addiction.-Mm-hm.
And that I thoughthis relationship
to sex and sexualitywas disordered.
Mm-hm.
I mean that'show we ended up
-here and now.-Mm-hm.
I thought thatwas, like...
the beginning andthe end of our...
stuff.
How do you mean?
Like, if --if...
sex was good,l-- life was good,
and if sex was bad,life was bad.
Not coming from me,
coming from him.
You don't wantto be...
okay withnot doing it.
That is a...
not a signof health.
That's a signof something...
-else.-Mm-hm.
Um...
and so you wanna --you wanna -- you wanna --
and I wantto fix that.
And I want toencourage it, so...
a lot of myencouragement...
I'm not great atencouraging, I guess.
You know? It wasinterpreted...
in a verydifferent way.
-But ---As pressure?
I don't think certainlyas e-- easily as pressure,
but also, it could maybeeven, like, uh...
even more thanpressure,
it could be almostviewed negatively.
Annie, you often...misinterpreted...
gestures as...manipulation?
-As a sexual manipulation?-Yeah.
-Definitely.-That's what would happen?
Yes.
Pressure felt like pressurefelt like pressure.
-Mm-hm.-I couldn't...
see it asanything else.
When we sort of...
came to blowsa couple years ago...
[Orna] Aroundthe birthday thing?
-Yeah.-Mm-hm.
I was just like,
"I don't want to befucking held responsible
for this anymore.
Like I don't wanna...
I -- it's not --
I don't thinkit's fair to him...
at all.
And there wasa lot of years
where I defendedmyself
and I defendedmy...
position and I...
I accused him of allkinds of behavior...
um...
in a very d--
from a verydefensive...
place.
And I do , now,
really believe
-his intentions.-Mh-hm.
I don't think --
I think youwanted to...
love me up...all the time
and be loved by me,and I -- and I...
downright couldn't.
Mm-hm.
The other piecethat -- that...
really belongshere is that...
like, my attraction toAnnie was, like, biblical .
I mean, it was --
it was unreal.
W-- I had had...
a lot of relationshipsbefore you and...
when I sawher, like...
the world stopped.
Like, everythingstopped and I...
I was like...
"Oh, shit."
Like, "Here's..."
like, you know,it was like
"There's the one.That's --
that is the one."
And this is gonnasound terrible.
[Annie] I know.
But it's like,
"I wanna fuck thatfor the rest of my life.
Do you knowwhat you saw?
Yeah, I mean,like...
she had...
and still has...
like...
like, this incredible ...
uh, emotionalattachment to life.
Like, just this,like...
The way sheinteracts with...
the worldis -- it --
I don't do itthat way.
I don't -- I don'tsee it that way.
And I get to -- I getto experience it --
-But this capacity ---Yeah.
-to emotionally attach...-Oh yeah,
to emotionallyattach,
-but ---Yeah.
It's almost like she's...
you know, yeah,she's just plugged in
on a differentwavelength...
that's...inaccessible to me.
It just --
it seemed beautiful.
And it seemed...
something I didn'texactly know...
-was possible.-Mm-hm.
It -- we're verydifferent.
I feel like I'm forcingeverything...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
and that I'm holdingback the tide waters.
She looked like she waswalking on top of it.
♪disorientingsynths♪
♪♪♪
Ooh, that wasa salsa move.
♪♪♪
[exhales deeply]
[whispering]Oh...
[stifles laugh]
[Alan] You know...
I'll be verystraight-forward,
I -- I know thatshe...doesn't--
she doesn't trustme fully.
That's true.
I don't fullytrust him.
It was somethingthat...happened...
along the waythat I felt like...
he gave me reasonsto feel --
Mm-hm.
like, notsecure...
in how hefelt about me.
Like, um...
how seriouslyhe took...
or valued ourrelationship.
Um...
You're hurt.
Yeah, I felt --
I felt very hurt.
[voice cracking]I felt very hurt.
It kind of messed withmy head, you know?
Like...
'Cause it made me startlookin' at myself like...
like there wassomething wrong with me.
For being upset.
Right.
And deep down inside,
I felt like there wasmore going on
than he was really...
-telling me.-Mm-hm.
First of all, howare you feeling...
right now?
[softly]Annoyed.
-I'm a little annoyed.-Mm-hm.
Yeah.
Th-- there's nothing,nothing happened.
Like, I never...cheated on her,
I've never steppedout on her
when we weredating.
Like, that's justnot me.
So what --what...
made Evelynsuspicious of you?
I think she justknew that...
the majority of...
laughs] the employeesat my job were female.
-Mm-hm.-And...
there was a lotof social --
[Orna] What kindof company?
It was a fashioncompany.
-It was a ---Fashion.
-Yeah.-Mm-hm.
You know, in thecourse of the night,
I made an immaturedecision to, like, hey...
not give you that calland let you know, like,
-I'm still out because ---Mm-hm.
my frame ofmind was
"I'm probablygonna hear it"
and I didn'twant to hear it.
Mm-hm.
I think we've gottento the point that it's --
it's happened so often...
that it --
it made us question,like, "Hey,
what are we doing?"
Because I feel like...
what's a relationshipwithout trust?
-Uh-huh.-Yeah.
♪delicatepiano♪
-He disappears.-Sure.
She doesn't knowwhere he is,
he doesn'tcall back,
he doesn'treturn calls,
and he disappearsfor...
a few hours anda whole evening...
and she getsvery upset
and that stokesher suspicion of him.
That he's witha woman or...
whomever?
[Orna] Ultimately,that he's cheating.
That's where I,personally, feel...
torn because...
I got worriedthat I have
too much ofa personal opinion
-about the shady thing ---Yeah.
and that it'snot fair...
to them as a couplefor me to have this...
-uh ---Okay.
So did you, um...
you wanna take that upwith yourself, then?
How? [laughs]
So...
is he --
What is it aboutthe shady thing
that you haveno patience for,
-that it ignites ---just feel like what --
what, uh, I...
Like, why would peoplespend their life together
if they can't be honestwith each other?
It just seemsto me like...
that, personally,I don't understand
what's the point.[laughs]
♪softpiano♪
[Orna] They...
stopped talking...
because they'retoo afraid
of what they haveto say to each other
or what theymight hear.
And then the workis to find a way
to say and hear
the unspeakable.
I think it's justa bad cycle of just...
having thismindset, like,
"Uh, if I'm 100percent honest,
this might backfireand...
do I sayanything
-at all?-Yeah.
So you're tryingto control that
by not sayinganything.
-I was, and now ---Yeah.
I've been exploringthis thing
where I'm justgonna be upfront
-and see how that goes.-Right.
-Yeah, yeah.-Right.
But...
I am stillapprehensive.
I'm not 100 percentthere, but...
-Yeah.-Yeah.
Like, I haven't quitcold turkey yet.
[Orna] Right.[laughs]
[Orna] Right.Yeah.
I have caughthim in, like,
-little lies like that.-Mm-hm.
Or...
-being dishonest.-But I --
but let's talk aboutthe -- the --
the "dishonesty"
-or the lies.-Yeah.
You're saying that partof the reason you lie
is you don't wantto face judgement
and critique and conflict.
Correct.
Let's say you decideyou don't wanna lie
and you --
and you're gonnabe saying something
that Evelyn doesn'tapprove of.
You're going to behanging out with someone
Evelyn doesn'ttrust or --
or hanging out forseven hours at a bar.
Your wife disapprovesof you
and you're still standingthere being honest.
So what -- what'syour alternative
if you don't wantto lie about it,
if you want to go aboutit in another way?
So you want meto play it out?
-Or...?-Mm-hm.
Well, for example,yeah.
What if youdid that now?
Let's see whathappens.
I don't think there'sanything wrong
with the contactthat I have...
with peoplethat I meet.
It's never somethingthat you think it is
or fear that itmight be.
And you needto trust that...
because it's gonnacontinue to happen
and I don't want thereto be this pattern of...
just, like, an issueeverytime...
-I meet somebody.-Wait, wait.
What you're doingright now is different,
because what you'redoing right now
is you're tryingto manage Evelyn's...
disappointment.
Let her be upset.
-Okay.-You be true to yourself...
-and let her be.-Okay.
I don't think there'sanything wrong
with what I'm doing.
And I would hope...
that you would f--realize that
so we can stop havingdisagreements...
about thingslike this.
All right, you'restill managing her.
Yeah, I don't know.[laughs]
Yeah, just staywith yourself.
Just stay withyourself.
"I...don't feel likethere's something wrong
with what I'm doing.
I see thatyou're upset,
but I don't thinkthere's anything wrong
with what I'mdoing.
I'm okay...
with havingthese contacts."
You respond to that.
Honestly.[Orna] Honestly.
You don't seeanything wrong
-with the contact?-[laughs]
No, I'm not --I'm just, like,
trying torethink this.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I guess, initially,it would come across
maybe, like,a little selfish.
-Mm-hm.-You know?
-Mm-hm.-Like, oh, okay,
he justwants to --
He wants --
do what hewants to do.
-Mh-hm.-Right, and...
um...
maybe...that'smore important...
um --
More importantthan...?
Right.
Than...
I guess ourrelationship or, um,
my feelings.
Let's hear yourfeelings.
I guess, for me,it feels like maybe
I need to...do that more.
[Orna] Do whatyou want to do.
Right.
But thenI feel like --
then we're --it's --
we might as wellbe living
two different livesand just...cohabitate.
Well, if you don'treally want
to do anythingtogether...
if you -- ifthe honest truth is
you don't want to doanything together,
well, then that'sa good question.
But I think...
if this issue ofavoidance and honesty
is, at the moment,like, the core issue
that you've puton the table here --
Mm-hm.
the first thingyou need to do is...
be able to barethe truth.
Right now, you needto say the truth...
and you needto see the truth.
♪emotionalacoustic guitar♪
♪♪♪
[Desean] We don't...really hang out
with other...people.
We don't havemuch of a...
uh...network of friendsthat we hang out --
-I don't hang out ---How is that?
How -- Yeah.
How is it?
It sucks.
Sucks!
Mm-hm.
Do you miss...
having morefriends?
[inhales deeply]
You know, um...
I think...there is some...
underlying resentment
-that Desean has ---Mm-hm.
against me aboutthat dynamic.
For example...?
I'd like to hearthis as well, yeah.
You don't know whatI'm referring to?
[Orna] I don't.
-Tell me.-Okay.
I'm not muchof a drinker.
When people do that,
they lose all sense--sensibility
of who they are
and who they'resupposed to be.
Why be around that?
There -- there'snothing p--
there's no good...in that relationship
if they're forcing youto lose who you are.
How is that good?
Can I just, uh --
just to understand, like,the parameters here,
are we talking about...
the fact that you don'tlike Desean going out
and drinking withhis friends?
Or are we talking about analcohol problem?
Yes.
[Orna] Both?
Yes.
-Okay.-Define --
define "alcohol problem."
No, because if someonehears you say
"I think Desean has a --a drinking problem" --
I didn't say that.
So when -- whenshe says
"I'm worried because,you know,
he might havea problem --"
Mm-hm.
the first thingcomes to mind is
"This person drinks allthe time, every day,
can't go withoutdrinking."
That's not the case.
I don't drink --
like, you consumemore alcohol than I do.
You drink morewine than I do
on a daily basis.
-What -- what she's ---Mm-hm.
trying to say
when she saysI have a problem is...
when I dogo out --
-Mm-hm.-the rare --
the once a yearthat I go out...
uh...
the rare timesthat I go out --
[Orna] When youdo go out.
Yeah, uh...
maybe, you know,uh, I'll get a little...
sauced.
I mean, you know --"Sauced," like black-outhammered?
Not blacked-out.Or...?
But, uh, you know,I'm slurring words --
-Uh-huh.-And, you know --
So you're gettingdrunk.
Yeah, I get drunk
and she doesn'tlike that.
I feel,and believe,
that a person who doesn'thave control of -- of...
or -- or the --or thewherewithal to know
when they need to stopand doesn't stop
is a problem.
Got it.
I feel like,you know,
-if I had ---Do you know --
do you know whatconcerns you
about that?
What's the ultimatefear for you?
Losing self-control.
Wh-- what's thefear there?
If you loseself-control,
you...?
Are not consciousof what you're doing.
And then?
And then youcan do anything.
Like...?
Uh...
whatever that is.
But what isthe fear?
It could be --it could be...
cheating,it could be...
Cheating?
It could be that.
It could be...just recklessness.
-Just ---Wh-- what other --
other thancheating,
what otherrecklessness?
So now, becauseyou're
so used to drinkingthat way
that you thinkyou can drive.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I feel like I'msaving his life.
Thank you, babe.
I -- I really do.
You feel likeyou're saving
-his life?-Absolutely.
-Absolutely.-And you feel like...?
No fun.
[sighs heavily]
Yeah, no fun.
Mm-hm.
Y-- you strikeme as...
What would be thegood way to describe it?
As, like, veryintentional about
the way youlive life.
-Right?-Yes.
-Very intentional.-Yes.
-Yes.-Right?
That you're kind ofleading your life,
you're drivingyour own life,
you're consciousabout your choices.
But...
you know, as apsychoanalyst,
I always wonderin those cases,
okay, what's --what are you afraid of?
What's the otherside of that?
-[laughs]-Why the need
to drive so hard?
-Because ---What's the --
the shadowof that?
Well, just lettingthings happen.
But what -- what'syour history
with letting thingshappen...
that has taught you...
"I better drivethis life really hard
otherwise..." what?
You know, growing upin the household
-that I grew up in ---Mm-hm.
there was nota lot of...
control.
Tell me.
My mother was veryyoung when she had me...
and her escape wasprobably, you know,
-getting high.-Mm-hm.
And so now you couplethat with my father
who was thereat the time
who was alsogetting high...[Orna] Mm-hm.
um, who wasyoung, also.
[Orna] And did theystay together?
-For a long time.-Yeah.
But it was a volatile,violent...
toxic...unhealthy --
think of all ofthose adjectives.
[Orna] Right.
-Environment.-Right.
So kids, they werestill kids,
-they were doing drugs.-And so --
They're...
-All of that.-Yeah.
I left my -- mygrandmother's house
-when I was 15.-15.
I rented a room.
And they wereokay with that?
They didn't havea choice...
because...
-this is who I am.-Yeah.
You know, I'm --I'm not coming back.
And then, I getmyself pregnant...
by a guywho...was...
-an alcoholic who ---Mm-hm.
used to wake me up witha punch in the face.
And again, mebeing who I am,
-I'm a fighter, right?-Mm-hm.
So we're fighting,right?
And that wasthe life.
Right?
Because that'swhat you did,
'cause that's whatyour mother did,
-right?-Yeah.
That's justwhat happens.
You know, I havemy son.
So that's your son.
Right, I hadmy son, and...
a shift happenedwhen I had what I call
an "out-of-bodyexperience."
I saw me on the floorand my son crawling...
and me gettingpunched in the face
on the floor.
And that moment --
Wait.
So...
so this is a momentwhere your boyfriend...
My son's father,um...
-uh ---He comes home drunk?
-He...-He -- so...
th-- long storyshort, I -- I was...
very aggressive towardhim the night before...
and he...
I kind of threatenedhim with a bat...
and --
Because you --
Because he usedto wake me up with
a punch in the faceand I didn't want to...
get punched inthe face so I bought --
I went andI bought a bat.
So I boughtthe bat
-from Modell's...-Mm-hm.
and I drank coffeeso I can wait up for him
and then whenhe came,
I opened the doorand I was like,
"Y-- You comin' in?"
And...
he looked at me,looked at the bat...
a couple of times
and then he turnedaround and he left.
I already knewthe next day
that it was gonna bea situation because...
it -- you know,he's a macho man...
-Yes.-at that time.
So you're not gonnaget away with that.
-Right.-Yeah.
So...
I'm kind of like...
-"I got a bat.-Mm-hm.
You know, I got a batand I'm gonna just,
you know, do mything with the bat."
And, uh, he comes with hisbrother at the time and...
I get hit.
And so when he hit me,I fall to the ground
and that's when I sawme on the floor
and my son at that timewas crawling...
and I saw that
and the only thoughtin my head was...
"I don't want my sonto think that this is life."
I don't want myson to think
that this iswhat you do.
Mm-hm.
And I leftthat night
with a backpackand a baby.
I will never bein a situation
where lifejust goes.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I will alwayslead that.
This is thefirst time...
that I'm notleading it.
Well, you're havinga hard time
-not leading it. [laughs]-I am having a
tremendous...
-hard time ---Yeah.
-with that.-Yes.
But he -- he viewsit different
and I'm like,"I promise you,
I'm savingyour life.
-Promise."-You're saving your own life.
Well, that too.[laughs]
That, too.
I mean what's...
...less obvious inthis kind of story
is that you were actuallykind of a kid
and a young persongoing through...
all of this...
with not a lotof protection and...
No.
There's so much chaosand then violence around.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm --I'm kind of...
trying to get tothat part of things,
the more vulnerable...
to understand wherethe anxiety comes from
that then shows up laterin your relationship
in the form of, like,she's saving your life...
...when, in fact...
right now your lifeis not in danger.
But your life wasin danger.
In -- in a matterof speaking.
-Like I ---Mmm...
your life wasin danger.
An-- an-- I --I didn't --
I never took itthat way.
-I took it ---But it was.
-I never took it that way.-Right.
But are you hearingyour own story?
Because you left --you left your body,
you looked fromup there,
you didn'treally pay...
close enoughattention to the fact
that you were reallystruggling for your life.
You know,I -- I've...
conditioned myself
-to detach.-Mm-hm.
You know, you wentthrough it, you lived,
keep it movin'.
-I -- I get that.-Mm-hm.
That's admirable.
One of the problemswith, like,
managing lifelike that...
is that the stuff thatyou just detach from,
that you look atfrom the ceiling --
Mm-hm.
it continuesto haunt, right?
And it -- and it haskind of a shadow on now...
that you mightwant to at least know
it's there and feel ita little bit more
so that you can...
separate past...
from present.
Hm.
♪softmusic♪
I mean betweenthem all, uh,
like my head issometimes spinning.
Yeah.
[man] She's gottensober.
I've been.
[Orna] You're day in,day out witnessing...
a struggle.
Bad things happento people
and they suffer.
There's a lotof suffering.
[sighs]
Just knowing that people arerelying on you to...
help them through...
that's a heavy duty.
-[kiss]-[sniffle]
♪Are youall good?♪
♪Are youalright?♪
♪I'm in yourneighborhood♪
♪In yourdarkest times♪
♪Are youall good?♪
♪Are youalright?♪
♪I'm in yourneighborhood♪
♪In yourdarkest times♪
♪Are youall good?♪
♪Are youalright?♪
♪I'm in yourneighborhood♪
♪For yourdarkest times♪
♪Are youall good?♪
♪Are youalright?♪
♪I'm in yourneighborhood♪
♪For yourdarkest times♪
♪Are youall good?♪
♪Are youalright?♪
♪I'm in yourneighborhood♪
♪For yourdarkest times♪
♪Are youall good?♪
♪Are youalright?♪
♪I'm in yourneighborhood♪
♪For yourdarkest times♪
♪When allyou want♪
♪Is todisappear♪
♪Searchin'for wisdom♪
♪But nothing'sclear♪
♪What willbecome of me♪
♪If you'renot here?♪
♪I know life isa mental place♪
♪Where there'salways fear♪
♪Are youall good?♪
♪Now we'reall alone♪
♪I wanna whisperyou something♪
♪That youalready know♪
♪Are youall good?♪
♪Tell me howyou're feelin'♪
♪Now we'reall alone♪
♪I wanna whisperyou somethin'♪
♪That youalready know♪
♪Are youall good♪