I think the early years after 1997 did
go pretty well it's true that the
Chinese which was probably always going
to happen
cut off contained the nascent moves
towards a more accountable democratic
system and broke their word in doing so
because they'd always made it clear that
the system should be determined by
people in Hong Kong with looping
promised it was that's what the foreign
ministry promised but that was sort of
predictable and I think what's slightly
disturbing is the further we've got away
from 1997 and the more of there have
been signs of Beijing turning its back
on the joint declaration and and
starting to apply a bit of pressure to
Hong Kong's wind pipe now I don't guess
necessarily go along with the Taiwanese
argument that hurricane 160 170 or more
breaches of the joint declaration I
think that's a bit excessive but I think
the attacks on the judiciary and the
rule of law and I think the implied
attacks on academic independence and an
excellence I think that the constraints
on the Free Press am at their worst the
sort of triad like attack on Kevin Laue
but other issues as well and I think the
abductions in Hong Kong without really
anyone making a fuss about it
I thought the abductions were um deeply
worrying and because I mean if anything
was a breach of the joint declaration
then that was and what you start to
think is that the Chinese are almost in
denial about the joint declaration being
a treaty with another country lodged at
the UN
in the first part of the treaty Britain
undertook to do certain things for Hong
Kong and Hong Kongers before 1997 and
China had the right to object when it
got something wrong in China's view
since 1997 China has been responsible to
the people of Hong Kong for keeping to
its side of the bargain on the joint
declaration and the fact that people now
in hong kong 20 years after the handover
are asking questions about what's going
to happen between now and twenty forty
seven is rather worrying what however
what I find impressive is that in a way
the more that pressure has been put on
Hong Kong the more people in Hong Kong
have asserted in a patriotic way their
sense of Hong Kong Chinese citizenship
and I think that's an extraordinarily
powerful thing which goes it's um of
course manifested nowadays in and in
people like Joshua Wong but it's also
from their parents generation as well
and so that Hong Kong remains despite
the threatening behavior by Beijing
remains one of the most decent free
societies in Asia with a very very
vigorous civil society violators do you
think they're evil freedoms are being
gradually varied you think that it is
well I think there has been some erosion
of people's freedoms and of some
standards and if you give the impression
that you can only get on in the public
service by toeing the line and
inevitably em it undermines the
integrity of public service in a way
which is ultimately pretty damaging but
all that said I don't want to sound too
negative about Hong Kong because I still
think that partly because of people's
sense of
the relationship between the economic
freedom and political freedom partly
because of people's understanding of the
importance of the rule of law the most
pessimistic things that people said
about one country two systems' people
from Milton Friedman to well a lot of
journalists and haven't come true
so I remain an optimist about Hong Kong
but worried about whether China will
keep its word and you've obviously this
is not Khamenei time since Hanover how
does the city changed well it still is
only really changed in the way that it
always does that it's an the skylines
different every time I mean for the
first few years I didn't go back back
very much I went back the first time I
think when I was when I just written a
book about partly about Hong Kong and
I've gone back I suppose every other
year and since then um and I will hope
to be able to continue to do so there
were lots of things about my time our
time as a family in Hong Kong which made
it very special for us and very happy um
and I'd never want to turn my back on
those what is still true is despite the
fact that and every time you go back and
the skyscrapers a taller and the
shopping malls are glitzy oh well that's
true
um but you can still turn a corner and
find a bit of traditional Hong Kong a
street market and a barber working in
the street with I can number one scene
so vividly and with a cigarette between
quite at the very end of his of his
fingers and the other hand snipping away
the hair and having a very animated
[Music]
conversation in Cantonese so some of
what has made Hong Kong special is still
there Jane Jacobs in her book on the
relationship between cities and growth
talks about urban plata as being a
reason for growth in a city and I once
said that to the lately quite new who
was a very human nobody should deny his
success in in Singapore but he was
always slightly envious I think of Hong
Kong and I said well you know there's a
social engineering in Hong Kong
unlike Singapore people get on with
their lives in a against a framework of
values which am a kept in place by the
law and he said to me ah he said but if
I had your people my GDP would be 25%
higher and I said but you wouldn't get
people in Hong Kong to behave as though
they were in Singapore it's part of the
wonderful charm of the place when Europe
was still committed to greater up action
by the state and to the state running
industries and so on Hong Kong thanks
partly to John Carper Freight but also
to people who recognized the importance
which the Chinese society is put on
getting on and looking after yourself
Hong Kong was exploding as a market
economy being spectacularly well do you
think people and more divided now than
they were 20 years ago in terms of rich
poor provision to democracy I can't say
that really and I think the if I was a
in government in Hong Kong
I would keep an anxious eye on the Gini
coefficient properly measured not hidden
as is the case in Beijing because I
think that is a that is a marker of
whether X society is probably the best
even though it was invented an Italian
fascist marker on on how and how much
inequality there is in a society when I
was in Hong Kong one of the tremendous
pluses for a politician was that you
never really had to make choices between
spending on one thing or spending on
another or cutting taxes or increasing
spending or dealing with a fiscal
deficit because we at the end of a run
of getting on for thirty years I think
26 years of economic growth so every
year we were able to cut taxes and there
was never any suggestion of an indirect
tax and to increase the amount of money
in the reserves to build that Airport
out of revenue rather than out of
borrowings where it was had probably
been cheaper if the Chinese government
had understood the point but to build it
out of borrowing and to increase
spending so I should be attacked by by
communists in Beijing for being sensuous
for spending money more money on the
health service and education and the
disabled and programs like that I think
that one area where it's very difficult
and to achieve the sort of balance
people would like is in the area of of
housing and public housing and that's
partly because of the shortage of land
and the pressure it's partly because of
the extent to which I think housing is
being used as a way of London laundering
only out of Beijing which pushes up the
price of property all the time and
people do get trapped I think either
trapped in public housing when they'd
like to get out and home and all trapped
without the sort of adequate housing
they would like so I think that's
probably the major area socially of
concern and I was sorry we weren't able
to do it do anything about it when I was
there I think there was always a worry
that if we moved too radically on the
housing market
it might um have a damaging effect on
individual Hong Kong companies and on
the the stock market at a time when we
were coming up to 1997 with all those
uncertainties and you said that
democracy Hong Kong in a pipe dream what
is the reality for the future city is I
say that some there the independence to
allow to allow the the argument for
democracy which people like me feel
strongly about the argument for
democracy M shouldn't be allowed
shouldn't be diluted by morphing into a
an argument for independence which is
simply not going to happen and is a
provocation but I certainly think that
Hong Kong will be democratic one day it
will and you think for having it those
2047 look I'm 73 in 30 years time if I'm
around I'll be 103 and I'm I'm reluctant
to to think that far ahead but when you
when you look at what's just happened in
Britain and it's dangerous looking 24
hours ahead let alone in any further and
I hope that the Chinese government will
keep their word why in particular
because of
of people in Hong Kong but also because
I think that the rest of the world will
be watching very carefully to see
whether it's true that the Chinese keep
their word recent once it's been one
country two sittings we'll continue past
24/7 well that's what some certainly up
to twenty forty seven and the question
now is whether M Chinese government
understand what that means the phrase
one country two systems is one which
they have which officials in Beijing
have parroted a great deal repeated over
and over again but I sometimes wonder
whether they've actually thought through
what it means what two systems what the
Hong Kong system actually means um and I
think this is there's a shortage of
knowledge and a paucity of imagination
about that when you hear some Chinese
communist officials doing Hong Kong
lectures about the rule of law what they
know about the rule of law I remember
when I first talked to Lou ping it's a
very nice and intelligent and moderate
man who I think was probably sometimes
driven into saying and doing things
which he had probably preferred not to
do a wonderful English speaker and very
interested in classical music not
leading this classical music and
remember Liu ping talking to me about
the rule of law and I said had just
recently been the British Environment
Secretary and that while I was in that
job and in a huge amount of the time my
decisions were challenged in the courts
by groups of activists or people who
didn't like a planning decision or what
other environmentalists and I said we go
to court that be a judicial review and I
never really knew whether I'd win or not
because the law applied to me and it
wasn't just me applying it to other
people
so I said in the rule of law means the
world subjected through it so he said
well we have we have that tool I said no
you have ruled by laws not of law I
think it has been a very difficult thing
for Chinese Communists to understand
them not because they're Chinese
probably cuz they're communists and
they're communists and in the sense of
being authoritarian I don't even like
very communists in their economical
social policies they looked up to me do
you think the UK sold out a Hong Kong s
by leaning in vague 2 pence for 2047 no
I think we're like was mantis appealing
I know I I don't think that em we sold
out people in Hong Kong by not going
beyond 20 47 50 years is a long time and
100 years 99 years is a long time as we
discovered in 1997 but 99 years does
come around eventually and now I think
that M where we were and where we didn't
behave very well was in establishing
strong enough foundations early enough
for Hong Kong's gradual acquisition of
the machinery of accountability which is
a long-winded way of saying that I think
after the joint declaration was agreed
we should have been much more active in
pushing the case for for democracy or a
faster pace of democratization in Hong
Kong we had that absurd consultation
exercise in Hong Kong in which people
voting for more directly elected seats
was more
into people not voting for directly
elected seats and it was Libous slate of
hanpan it was undoubtedly and driven by
the foreign office and the overwhelming
desire to follow Percy Craddock's puted
and smooth transition sought transition
meant doing basically what Beijing
wanted one of my officials used to say
and I suppose you could call a funeral
of smooth transition which has something
to be said for it but I think that the
sort of modest changes that Teddy you'd
was trying to implement before he died
tragically he was a very good man and
ran into huge resistance from the sort
of cranek heights in the knee for enough
reason I could never really understand
the kradic position Craddock was in
private and in semi-public far ruder
about the Chinese Communist Party's and
I would ever dream of being you have to
say they're all thugs and then he's
behaved is there the right thing to do
was to go along with him for the clever
they wanted pretty well and I don't
think that was some sensible or
honorable do you think can be seen with
also as Hong Kong in the Crown
dependency then you know it would be a
see territory now and we've seen like
sovereignty referendums in 2004
contributor all of those do you think
Hong Kong should have had a referendum
there's lots of talk on the run of 297
having a better engine you know you know
Tyga's argue on cartons was an activity
well look I'm pleased shooting that
happiness should there have been a
referendum in Hong Kong and I'm very
much against referendums in general not
just because of what's happened with
them brexit
but I think that her a pretty crude
device in in nation democracies or or
real democracies the problem if you'd
had a referendum is that if people had
voted and no to the transfer of
sovereignty and if that had been the
outcome what would you have done because
and the lease ran out in 1997 but it was
a good question which M Emily Lau used
to argue regularly and British ministers
it was the best question and hated her
for doing it so she didn't quite ask it
in terms of a referendum let me tell you
one story I was um visiting a mental
hospital for the mentally ill he'll not
long before I left Hong Kong in the New
Territories and it was a very old
structure with different wards in sort
of the equivalent of Nissen huts with
why around them to keep the patient's
him in each ward and and I'm walking
down the middle and there's a very very
well-dressed Chinese guy who's calling
from behind one of these wire fences
governor patten governor patten could
you pretty come over and talk to talk to
me and to the horror of my sort of
comets tailor from officials I walk over
and talk to I mean it was interesting
with this guy in them in a three-piece
suit in a mental hospital and is self
competent enough to want to talk to the
governor so I walk across and he says
some complimentary things and then he
says them it's not to ask you one
question hem governor he sent him
Britain says it's the oldest democracy
in the world
so I said movement sometimes claimed
and he said China is the last great
communist power in the world
authoritarian power and I say yes and he
said could you understood you deaf
explain to me how it is that Britain the
democracy is handing over Hong Kong to
an authoritarian power without
consulting the people of Hong Kong
without giving him any choice and I was
coming into the car coming back and one
of my official said to me $6 PS in it
either burpee the man with the same as
question in Hong Kong is in a mental
hospital that was it was unfair and in
fact others were asking a similar
question like as I said Emily Lau he
used to regularly embarrass visiting
British ministers and with with that
with that question I remember saying to
Geoffrey Howe once after he'd been it
he'd injured him some of these questions
especially after he'd been foreign
minister isn't she wonderful and he
didn't he couldn't understand the point
I was making but she was she was getting
right to the heart of the matter and the
point the real answer was I'm sorry but
there isn't anything we can do about it
and what we should do is to try to give
you as much as possible in the way of
institutional development
darling darling can I help what on you
back thanks bye
it was Laura they will be like anything
else my phone was going earlier they all
want to say good luck tomorrow down how
do you feel when you thought young body
movement okay how did you feel when you
saw a young fella Lincoln on TV is
obvious young protesters come out to
democracy all the faster
how healthy any panic you do well I
would to sentiments the first was I
thought how brave they were and how
extraordinarily courteous and well
organized and disciplined they were I
mean it must be the first mass
demonstration with people clearing up
miss and and doing homework while it's
going on
so I thought they weren't behaving and
extraordinarily well I also thought that
it was terrific that twenty years after
well notice by the lieutenant was
seventeen years I suppose after we'd
left them Hong Kong there was still all
these young people many of whom wouldn't
have been born or certainly wouldn't
have been out of elementary school when
we left who held on to us to the
standards which we had espoused but not
always difficult on you teach people at
university and to read Adam Smith and
lock and Amartya Sen you shouldn't be
surprised if they then go out and behave
as though the world should be like those
people you've taught them to read and
the second thing that and filled me with
some concern
was that in mass demonstrations like
that even with moderate leadership it's
very difficult for people to understand
the point at which they've made their
point where I understand when they made
their point and when they've captured
the moral high ground and when it is
sensible for them to step back and they
treated those who suggested they should
step back people like Martin Lee and
Cardinal Zen and Hansen chair as though
they were somehow and collaborators or
whatever and in fact and if they had
pulled back themselves a bit earlier
they would have left having completely
possessed the moral high ground and
having put all the pressure on to the
government to respond they're not
criticizing them but I just as a tnmn
they're happily without the violent
consequences those sort of
demonstrations are always difficult to
calibrate I think that said that Joshua
Wong and some of the others are
remarkable young people I think he is
immensely articulate very brave takes
the long-term view and in any society
you would be proud of young people like
him
we've just um been we've all just warmed
in Europe to the election of mr. Mack
Hall I said to my daughters you know
what tutor them he's younger than you
what you gonna do for your next trick
and why why people have even warm to him
because
he bravely stood up for a set of values
which people can identify with em and I
think it an earlier age that's what
Joshua Wong and some of his colleagues
have done and it's terribly important
that Britain and other countries and
don't let that generation down in the
same way that we let their parents
generation down and my last question is
do you have a message I just I would
just say to Hong Kong but thanks to your
belief in what makes it special and it
still is special and I hope you never
forget that I think the notion of Hong
Kong Chinese MMus will last a lot longer
than the Politburo spew of chineseness
and because I can't believe that China
is totally unlike every other great
country and society China's been
transformed economically since I first
saw it in 1979 the surprising thing is
looking around the world it has such a
faint footprint given its economic
strength and you know you fetch up with
a collection of friends who are by and
large basket cases Venezuela and
Zimbabwe and North Korea and the except
in the higher education sector where we
benefit hugely from the quality of young
Chinese
China isn't making nearly as much of a
mark on the world as you might think it
should so my vote goes with them those
goes to Joshua Wong and his colleagues
not to the Politburo