[Man] "The unexamined life is not worth living," Plato says in Line 38A of the Apology. “未經審視的人生是不值得活的” 柏拉圖 《辯護篇》38A
How do you examine yourself? What happens when you interrogate yourself? 你如何審視自己？ 當你質問自己時會怎樣？
What happens when you begin to call into question... 當你開始懷疑...
your tacit assumptions and unarticulated presuppositions, 你的默許的假定和未表達的臆測？
and begin then to become a different kind of person? 并在那時開始變成另一類人？
See, I put it this way. That for me, 這麼說吧, 那對於我
I mean, philosophy is fundamentally about... 我是說 從根本上 哲學是關於
our finite situation. 我們有限的處境/局面/狀況
We can define that in terms of we're beings toward death, 我們可以將其解釋為 我們是走向死亡的生物
and we're featherless, two-legged, linguistically conscious creatures born between urine and feces… 我們是無羽毛的、兩足、有語言意識的生物 誕生於屎尿之間
whose body will one day be the culinary delight of terrestrial worms. 肉身終有一日將成為世間蛆蟲的美食
That's us. We're beings toward death. 那就是我們 我們是走向死亡的生物
At the same time, we have desire while we are organisms in space and time, 同時 當我們是空間與時間中的生物體時 我們有慾望
and so it's desire in the face of death. 因此 是慾望在死亡的面前
And then of course, you've got dogmatism, various attempts to hold on to certainty, 然後當然 你有教條主義 各種為了控制確定性的嘗試
various forms of idolatry, and you've got dialogue in the face of dogmatism. 各種形式的偶像崇拜 然後你有對話 以教條主義的形式
And then of course, structurally and institutionally you have domination… 然後當然 結構上和體制上 你有統治/控制
and you have democracy. 你還有民主/民主制度
You have attempts of people tying to render accountable… 你有人們試著表現負責的嘗試
elites, kings, queens, suzerians, corporate elites, politicians, 精英、國王、女王、領主、公司精英、政客
trying to make these elites accountable to eveyday people. 嘗試讓這些精英對日常人群/普通大眾負責
So philosophy itself becomes… 因此哲學本身變成了...
a critical disposition… 一個關鍵的傾向
of wrestling with desire in the face of death, 作為慾望于死亡面前的搏鬥
wrestling with dialogue in the face of- of dogmatism, 對話于教條主義面前的搏鬥
and wrestling with democracy- trying to keep alive very fragile democratic experiments- 與努力保持脆弱的民主試驗的民主/民主制度
in the face of structures of domination; 于統治/控制面前的搏鬥
patriarchy, white supremacy, imperial power, 父權 白人優越主義 皇權
um- uh, state power. 國家權力
All those concentrated forms of power… 所有這些權力的集中形式
that are not accountable to people who are affected by them. 並未對那些受它們影響的人們負責
[Woman] So, can you hear me well? 能聽清楚我講話嗎？
[Astra Taylor] And you can speak to me, so- Good. Vey good. 你可以對我說話 很好 非常好
Wonderful. Okay. 非常好 好吧
So I was trying to figure out what you were getting me into here, 我在嘗試明白你想讓我做什麼
and how we're implicated in this walk. 以及我們如何被牽扯進這次散步之中
I was going to interview you and ask you what you thought you were doing. 我本來要採訪你 問你 你認為你在做什麼
I'm specifically thinking about the challenge of making a film about philosophy, 我正在特別地考慮 製作一部有關哲學的電影將會面臨的挑戰
which, um, obviously has a spoken element, 它 呃 顯然有著口述的特點
but is typically written. 但它通常是書面的
And book form allows you to explore something so in-depth, 而書的形式能使你深入地探討一些東西
you know, 300, 400, 500 pages exploring a single concept, 像在300, 400, 500頁中僅僅探討一個概念
whereas in a feature-length film you have 80 minutes… 而在一個長片中 你有80分鐘
in the form of speech that's been recorded. 以講話的形式被錄下
And in the case of this film, each person has 10 minutes. 而在這部電影中 每個人有10分鐘
Yes, that is scandalous. 是啊 那是可恥的
I can understand that the others would have 10 minutes, 我可以理解其他人用10分鐘
but to- to bring me down to 10 minutes… 但是 給我10分鐘
is an outrage- there's no doubt about it. 是暴行 毫無疑問
The thing is, we don't know where this film is going to land, 問題是 我們不知道這部電影將抵達何處
whom it's going to shake up, wake up, 誰將被它動搖、喚醒
or freak out, or bore. 或(感到)崩潰、無聊
But even boredom, as an offshoot of melancholy, would interest me... 但即使“無聊” 作為憂鬱的衍生物 也使我感興趣
as a response to these dazzling utterances that we're producing. 作為一種對於 「我們所創造的眼花繚亂的言論」 的回應
But I- I would say that, even if philosophy- 但我會說 即使是哲學
And don't forget that Heidegger ditched philosophy for thinking, 別忘了海德格爾拋棄了哲學 選擇了思考
'cause he thought philosophy as such… 因為他認為哲學 就這點而言
was still too institutional, academic, 太過機構化、學院化
too bound up in knowledge and results, 太限於知識與結論
too cognitively inflected. 太受認知所左右
So he asked the question, "What is called thinking?” 因此他提問 “何為思考？”
And he had a lot to say about walks, 而且他談及了許多 關於散步
about going on paths that lead nowhere. 關於踏上沒有通往任何地方/無處之路
One of his important texts is called Holzwege, 在他的重要著作中 有一部 Holzwege
which means a path that leads nowhere. 意思是 通往無名之地的道路
In Greek, the word for path is methodos. 在希臘語中 對應道路的詞為Methodos
So we're on the path. 所以我們在道路上
[Astra Taylor] One thing I want to ask you about is meaning. 我想問你的一件事是 關於“意義”
Is philosophy a search for meaning? 哲學 是對“意義”的探索嗎？
[Ronell] I'm very suspicious historically... 無論從歷史來看 還是從學術的觀點出發
and intellectually of the promise of meaning, 我都非常懷疑“意義”的允諾
because meaning... 因為“意義”
has often had very fascistoid, 經常有非常法西斯化的
non-progressivist edges, 非進步主義的優勢
if not a core of that sort of thing. 假若它並非那類事物的核心的話
Excuse me. Um- 對不起 呃
So that vey often, 所以非常經常
also the emergency supplies of meaning… 同樣對“意義”的緊急補充
that are brought to a given incident or structure… 被賦予給某個事件或結構
or theme in one's life are cover-ups, 或某人生命的主題 均為掩蓋
are a way of dressing the wound of non-meaning. 作為一種用來包紮「“無意義”的傷口」的方式
I think it's very hard to keep things… 我認為將事物保持在
in the tensional structure of the openness, 一個充滿張力的開放的結構中是困難的
whether it's ecstatic or not, of non-meaning. 無論這種無意義令人欣喜與否
That's very, very difficult, which is why there is then… 那是非常非常困難的 所以才會有
the quick grasp for a transcendental signifier, 對一個「超越經驗的意思」的快速理解
for God, for nation, for patriotism. 對上帝/神，對國家，對愛國主義
It's been very devastating, this, um- 這種對於意義的熱切渴望
this craving for meaning, 是非常具有毀滅性的
though it's something with which we are in constant negotiation. 儘管這是我們頻繁考量的某種東西
Everyone wants something like meaning. 每個人都渴望類似意義這樣的東西
But when you see these dogs play, 但當你看見這些狗在玩
[Growling] why reduce it to meaning… 為何要將其簡化為意義...
rather than just see the arbitrary eruption… 而非單純觀看某種不能被理解或者解釋的
of something that can't be grasped or explicated, 事物的隨意的突發...
but it's just there... 但它就在那里…
in this kind of absolute contingency of being. 在這種純粹存在的偶然性中
To leave things open… 保留事物的開放性
and radically inappropriable and something- 並且根本地不可挪用
and admitting we haven't really understood… 並且承認我們尚未真正理解...
is much less satisfying, more frustrating, 是更難以令人滿足 更令人沮喪
and more necessary, I think, you know. 但是更加必須的 我認為
And that's why I think a lot of people… 這是為什麼那麼多人
have been fed and fueled by promises… 一直被承諾/允諾所帶來的
of immediate gratification in thought… 即時的滿足感所餵養和刺激
and food and junk, and so on- 在思想、食品和垃圾的層面上
junk thought, junk food, and so on. 垃圾思想、垃圾食品等等
So the- the- 因此
There's a politics of refusing that gratification. 有一種政治是為了拒絕那種滿足感
And I know that's crazy-making, but I think that's where we have to pull the brakes. 而我知道那很瘋狂 但我認為那是我們應該剎車的地方
[Astra Taylor] Some people might be troubled, or might wonder, 有些人可能會感到困擾或者疑惑
how do you behave ethically if there's no ultimate meaning? 假若沒有最終極的意義 那該如何做才是有道德的人
Precisely where there isn't guaranteed… 正是因為那裡沒有保證
or palpable meaning, 或顯而易見的意義
you have to do a lot of work and you have to be mega-ethical, 你需要為此做很多工作 並且成為擁有“超級道德” 的人
'cause it's much easier to live life and know… 因為過一種 別人告訴過你的
that well, that you shouldn't do, and this you should do, because someone said so. 什麼是不該做的 什麼是應該做的生活要簡單地多
If we're not anxious, if we're okay with things, 假若我們不焦慮 假若我們對事物感覺良好
we're not trying to explore or figure anything out. 我們就不會嘗試探索以及探尋任何事物
So anxiety is the mood, par excellence, 因此焦慮是道德中
of- of-
of ethicity, I think, you know. 最卓越的情緒 我認為
Now, I'm not prescribing anxiety disorder for anyone. 我並非給任何人開焦慮症的處方
However, could you imagine Mr. Bush, who doesn't give a shit… 但是 你可以想像布什先生 毫不在乎地
when he sends everyone to the gas chamber… 當他把所有人送入毒氣室
or the, um, electric chair? 或者 呃 電椅上？
He expresses no anxiety. 他並未表達出任何焦慮
And they're very proud of this. They don't lose a wink of sleep. 而他們對此還十分驕傲 他們並未因此失眠
They express no anxiety. 他們並未表達任何焦慮
This is something that Derrida has taught. 這是德里達所教導過的
If you feel that you've acquitted yourself honorably, 假若你能夠體面地赦免自己
then you're not so ethical. 那你就並不是一個有道德的人
If you have a good conscience, then you're kind of worthless. 假如你有良知的話 那麼你在某種程度上是謙卑的
Like, if you think- "Oh, I gave this homeless person five bucks. 比如，你認為 “啊 我可以給這個流浪漢五塊錢”
I'm great"- then you're irresponsible. “我好棒” 那麼你就是不負責任的
The responsible being is one who thinks… 有責任的人是那種
they've never been responsible enough. 認為自身 永遠無法盡到責任的人
They've never taken care enough of the Other. 他們永遠沒有足夠關心他者
The Other is so in excess… 他者是遠遠超出
of anything you can understand or grasp or reduce. 你能夠理解、掌握或簡化的東西
This in itself creates an ethical relatedness- 這其中本身便創造了道德的關聯
a relation without relation, 'cause you don't know- 一種沒有關聯/關係的關聯/關係 因為你不知道
You can't presume to know or grasp the Other. 你無法自以為了解或者掌握他者
The minute you think you know the Other, you're ready to kill them. 一旦你認為了解他者之時 你便準備好殺死他們了
You think, "Oh, they're doing this or this. 你想 “噢 他們在做這種或那種事情”
They're the axis of evil. Let's drop some bombs.” 他們是邪惡的軸心 讓我們(向他們)投擲炸彈吧
But if you don't know, you don't understand this alterity, 但是如果你不了解 不能理解他性
it's so Other that you can't violate it with your sense of understanding, 它的差異如此之大以至於你無法通過自身的理解來違反它
then, um, 那麼 呃
you have to let it live, in a sense. 在某種意義上 你應當使其繼續存活下去
This is the center of one of the world's richest countries… 這是世界上最富裕國家之一的中心
and one of the most expensive places there, 也是那裡最昂貴的地區
and that raises an ethical issue. 而那引發了一個道德問題
I mean, there are people who have the money to buy at these stores… 我是說 有人有錢在這些店裡購物
and who don't seem to see any kind of moral problem doing that. 並且好像沒有意識到任何的道德問題
But what I want to ask is, well, shouldn't they see some sort of moral problem about that? 但我想問的是 他們不應當意識到一些道德問題嗎？
Isn't there a question about what we should be spending our money on? 難道那裡沒有一個關於我們應當如何花錢的問題嗎？
So we're outside Bergdorf Goodman, where they've got a display of Dolce & Gabbana shoes. 我們在有展示杜嘉班纳鞋子的波道夫·古德曼門口
And it's kind of amusing to me because about 30 years ago, 而讓我感到有趣的是 因為大約30年前
I wrote an article called "Famine, Affluence, and Morality”... 我寫了一篇文章叫“饑餓 富裕 與道德”
in which I imagined… 當中我想像
that you're walking past a shallow pond, 你走路 跨過一個淺水池
and as you walk past it you notice there's a small child who's fallen into the pond… 而當你走過 你發覺有個小孩掉進了水池
and seems to be in danger of drowning, 并似乎有溺死的危險
and you look around to see where the parents are, and there's nobody in sight. 你四處張望 尋找孩子的父母 但看不到任何人
You realize that unless you wade into this pond and pull the child out, 你意識到除非你踏入水池 把孩子拉起
the child is likely to drown. 否則孩子很有可能就會溺死
There's no danger to you because you know the pond is just a shallow one, 對你來說這沒有危險 因為水池很淺
but you are wearing a nice pair of shoes… 但你穿著一雙漂亮的鞋子
and they're probably gonna get ruined if you wade into that shallow pond. 而它們很有可能會因你踏入水池而被毀壞
So, of course, when I ask people this, they always say, 所以 當然 當你問人們 它們總說
"Well, of course, forget about the shoes. You've just got to save the child. That's clear.” “當然 忘了鞋子 你必須救孩子 那很顯然”
And then I stop and say, "Okay, you know, I agree with you about that. 然後我停下 說 “好吧 我同意你的意見”
"But for the price of a pair of shoes, “但就一雙鞋的價格”
"if you were to give that to Oxfam or UNICEF or one of those organizations, “假如你把錢給樂施會或聯合國兒童基金會或這樣的組織”
"they could probably save the life of a child, maybe more than one child in a poor country, “你可能能夠拯救一個孩子的生命 在貧窮國家 也許不只一條命”
"where children are dying because they can't get basic medical care… “在那些因為沒有基本醫療條件來治療類似痢疾之類的疾病”
to treat very basic diseases like diarrhea or whatever else it might be.” “而導致孩子們在垂死的地方來說”
And that's really one of the reasons why I think it's interesting… 而那是我認為
to be here on 5th Avenue talking about ethics, 在這裡 第五大道上談論道德有趣的原因
because ethics is about the basic choices that we ought to make in our lives, 因為道德有關我們在生活中應該做出的基本選擇
and one of those choices is how do we spend our money. 而那些選擇中其中一個就是我們如何花錢
[Singer] I started thinking about these issues back in the 1970s… 七十年代時我開始思考這些問題
when, for one thing, there was the crisis in Bangladesh… 其中一個就是 在孟加拉的危機
where there were millions of people who were in danger of starving... 數百萬民眾在餓死的危機中
because of the repression of the Bangladeshis by the Pakistani Army at the time. 因為當時巴基斯坦軍隊對孟加拉人民的鎮壓
And that made me think about our obligations to help people who are in danger of starvation. 而那令我意識到我們對於幫助處於饑荒危機中人們的義務
Also around the same time, I happened to meet someone who was a vegetarian, 而差不多同時 我遇到了某個素食主義者
who, uh, got me asking myself about, 令我問我自己
am I justified in continuing to eat meat? 我繼續吃肉是否合理呢？
What is it that gives us the right, or that justifies us, 而什麼給了我們權力或使之稱義
in treating animals the way they get treated… 以那樣的方式對待動物...
before they end up on our lunch or dinner or whatever it might be? 在它們淪為我們的午餐或晚餐之類的之前？
And I read a little bit about factory farming, 然後我讀了一些關於工廠化的農場經營、集約型農場
intensive farms, and the way they confine animals, 以及他們限制動物的方式
which was something that was really just getting going at that stage. 真的是在那時剛剛開始發展起來的東西
And I thought that you can't really justify this, 而我意識到你是無法讓那樣的形式合理化的
that we've just taken for granted the idea… 而我們只是想當然地認為
that somehow humans have the right to use animals whichever way they want to. 人類有權利以任何形式利用動物
And that isn't defensible. 而那是無法自圓其說的
The boundary of species is not something that really is so morally significant… 物種的界限並沒有道德上的重要性
that it entitles us to take another sentient being… 那並不能賦予我們奪走另一個能夠感受痛苦、疼痛的
who can suffer or feel pain, 有情眾生生命的權利
and do as we wish with that sentient being… 以及為所欲為
just because we happen to like the taste of its flesh. 只因為我們碰巧喜歡肉的滋味
So these two issues really got me thinking about Applied Ethics, 因此這兩個問題確實令我思考應用倫理學
which at this time in the beginning of the 1970s wasn't really a field. 而在此之時 七十年代初 應用倫理學並不是一個領域
It wasn't really something that philosophers thought was properly philosophy. 哲學家並不認為這是嚴格的哲學
But I think it was a good time to start thinking about these issues… 但我認為那是一個開始思考這些問題的好時機
because of the student movement, 因為學生運動
the radical movement of the '60s and early ‘70s... 以及六十年代和七十年代初的激進運動
which had created a bit more interest in these issues and raised the question, 引發了對於這些問題的一些興趣
can we make our academic studies more relevant to the important questions of the day? 我們能否將學術研究變得與當今的重要問題更相關呢？
When you do apply ethics, 當你應用道德/倫理
you often find that thinking things through leads you to challenge common-sense morality. 你經常發現思考令你挑戰常識性的道德
And of course, this is consistent with a very ancient philosophical tradition. 當然 這與古代哲學相一致
It's exactly what happened with Socrates… 這恰是蘇格拉底所遭遇的...
when he started asking people about, "What is justice?” 當他開始問人們 “何為正義” ？
And they thought they knew what justice is, 而他們以為 他們知道正義是什麼
and then they started thinking about it, 而那時他們開始思考(何為正義）
and they realized they didn't understand it. 才意識到他們並不知道
And of course, Socrates ended up having- being forced to drink the hemlock… 當然 蘇格拉底最終被迫飲下毒藥
because he was accused of corrupting the morals of the youth. 因為他被控告腐化年輕人
Now, fortunately that doesn't happen to philosophers today. 現在 幸運的是當今的哲學家不會有這樣的遭遇了
But it could well be said that from a conservative point of view, 但是從保守的觀點來看 的確
Applied Ethics does corrupt morals- 應用倫理學會敗壞/腐化 倫理道德
"Corrupt" is the wrong word. But it certainly challenges morals… 敗壞也許不恰當 但哲學的確挑戰倫理道德
and might lead us to think differently about some things… 并引導我們以不同的思維方式
that we have held very dear for a long time. 去思考我們秉持想法已久的一些東西...
A lot of people think that you can only have ethical standards… 許多人認為你只能在某種方式下 例如宗教信仰
if in some way you're religious, 才能擁有倫理/道德的標準
you believe that there's a god who handed down some commandments… 你相信上帝/神傳下來一些戒律...
or inspired some scriptures which tell you what to do. 或啟發了一些經典 告訴你應該做什麼
I don't believe in any of that. 我一點都不相信那些
I think ethics has to come from ourselves, 我認為倫理/道德必須來自於我們自身
but that doesn't mean that it's totally subjective, 但那並不意味著它是純粹主觀的
that doesn't mean that you can think whatever you like about what's right or wrong. 那並不意味 你可以隨心所欲地思考對或錯
When you start to look at issues ethically, 當你開始以道德的形式考慮一個問題
you have to do more than just think about your own interests. 你必須考慮自身利益之外的東西
You have to ask yourself, how do I take into account the interests of others? 你必須問自己 我如何考慮他人的利益？
What would I choose if I were to be in their position rather than in my position? 假如我身處他們的立場 而非我的 我會如何選擇？
One of the most obvious things that emerges… 其中最明顯的東西會浮現
when you put yourself in the position of others… 當你將自己放進他人的立場...
is the priority of reducing or preventing suffering, 那就是要優先減少或阻止痛苦
because ethics is not just about… 因為倫理道德並非僅僅有關
what I actually do and the impact of that, 我實際上做了什麼及其影響
but it's also about what I omit to do, what I decide not to do. 而更有關於我忽略做什麼 以及我決定不去做什麼
And that's why, questions about- given that we all have a limited amount of money- 而那才是為什麼 有關用我們使用有限的金錢
questions about what you spend your money on… 在什麼東西上...
are also questions about what you don't spend your money on, 以及你不花錢在某些東西上
or what you don't use your money to achieve. 以及你不用你的錢去達到的
They just say, "Oh, well, I'm not harming anyone… 他們只是說 “噢 好吧 假如我花一千美元在一件新衣上”
if I go and spend a thousand dollars on a new suit.” “我并沒有傷害到任何人”
But, uh, in fact, given the opportunities that we have to help… 然而 呃 事實上 介於我們有必須去幫助的機會
and given the way the world is, 介於當下的這個世界
I think that quite often you're actually… 我認為通常你實際上...
are failing to benefit someone, which you could be doing. 未能使任何人受益 而那是你可以做的事情
I think we have moral obligations to help just as we have moral obligations not to harm. 我認為我們有幫助他人的倫理道德 正如我們有不傷害他人的倫理道德
[Singer] Over the thousands of years of history and development of philosophy, 在幾千年的歷史中 以及哲學的發展中
a lot of philosophers have asked, "Does life have a meaning? What is it?” 許多哲學家問及 “人生有意義嗎 那是什麼？”
And that's a question for which I think we can give an answer. 而那是一個我認為可以給出答案的問題
And I think the answer is, we make our lives most meaningful… 而我認為 當我們將自己與真正的原因與問題相聯繫的時候
when we connect ourselves with some really important causes or issues. 我們的人生才最具意義
And we contribute to that, so that we feel that… 我們為之努力并感覺到
because we lived, something has gone a little better than it would have otherwise. 因為我們活過 一些東西比它原本的態勢 變得更好了
We've contributed, in however small a way, to making the world a better place. 我們努力過 無論以多卑微的形式 為了使這個世界變得更加美好
And I think it's hard to find anything more meaningful than doing that, 而我認為 很難尋找到比這更有意義的了
than reducing the amount of unnecessay pain and suffering that there's been on this world, 而這就是減少這個世界上不必要的痛苦
or making the world a little bit better for all of the beings who are sharing it with us. 以及為了與我們分享這個世界的所有人 讓世界更加美好
[Appiah] I started thinking about the difference between… 我開始思考關於
the context in which we evolved as a species… 我們作為物種演變的環境
and the present, you know, in this age of globalization. 與現在 這兩者之間的區別
And one way to think about that is to notice that… 其中一種去思考的方式是意識到
if you live a modern life, if you're traveling through an airport, 假如你過著現代生活 你通過機場旅行
you're gonna be passing lots and lots of people, 你便會穿過很多人
and within a few minutes you'll have passed more people… 而在幾分鐘之內 你穿越過的人數
than most of our remote human ancestors… 就比我們(在時間中)最遙遠的祖先
would ever have seen in their entire lives. 一生看到過的人還要多
As an American, you exist in this kind of virtual relationship with 300 million people. 作為一個美國人 你與3億人存在於這個虛擬關係中
If you're lucky enough to be Chinese, your virtual relationships are with, you know, 假如你很幸運是個中國人的話 在你的虛擬關係中
soon, one and a half billion people or something like that. 會有大約5億人之類的
So I think that's- that's a way of dramatizing, 所以我認為這是一種誇張的形式
I think, the challenge that we face. 我思考 我們面臨的挑戰
We're- We're good at small, face-to-face stuff. 我們擅長于小型的、面對面的東西
That's what we were made for. 那是我們被“創造”的形式
We know how to be responsible for children and parents… 我們知道如何對孩子與父母負責
and cousins and friends. 對親戚還有孩子負責
But we now have to be responsible for fellow citizens, 但我們如今要對公民們負責
both of our country and fellow citizens of the world. 我們所屬國家與世界上的公民負責
And the question is, can we figure that out? 而問題是 我們可以做到嗎
which means citizen of the cosmos, of the world. 那意味著全世界的公民
And we need a notion of global citizenship. 而我們需要全球公民的概念
The cosmopolitan says, we have to begin by recognizing that we're responsible… 世界主義者說 我們需要開始意識到我們是有責任的
collectively, for each other, as citizens are. 共同地 彼此之間 作為公民
But second, 但然而
cosmopolitans think that it's okay for people to- to be different. 世界主義者認為人們彼此各異是可以接受的
That they care about everybody, 他們關心每一個人
but not in a way that means they want everybody to be the same, or like them. 但並非以一種想要所有人都一樣的方式 或者像他們一樣
Whereas, there's a certain kind of philosophical universalism, (那種方式)裡却有某種哲學意義上的普遍性
which is often associated with evangelizing religions, where, 通常與宗教的傳教相關的
"Yeah, we love everybody, but we want them to become like us… “是的 我們愛所有人 但我們想要所有人像我們一樣
in order to love them properly.” 為了真正地去愛他們”
There's a great German proverb which says- 有一個偉大的德國諺語說
"If you don't want to be my brother, I'll bash your skull in." “假如你不想成為我的兄弟 我就砸扁你的腦袋”
And that's- that's the opposite of cosmopolitanism. 而那是世界主義者的相反
It's the universalist who says, "Yeah, I want you to be my brother, but on my terms.” 普遍主義者說 “我想要你作為我的兄弟 但是要以我的條件”
Now, if you think that everybody's entitled to be different, right, 現在 假如你認為任何人都有權利不同 那很好
it can produce a kind of cultural relativism, in which you say, 這可以產生一種文化相對主義 在此之中你說
"Whatever they want to do, that's fine. “無論他們想做什麼无论他们想做什麼 都可以”
"There's no place for me standing outside to make any moral judgments, “那裡並沒有給那些 來做任何道德判斷的、
any ethical judgments, about what they're up to.” 倫理判斷的局外旁觀者的立足之地”
So that's kind of one position that I want to distinguish myself from. 所以這裡是我想與自己區別的一種立場
I think that it's very important… 我認為這是非常重要的
that in the global conversation of human beings that cosmopolitans recommend, 在人類的全球對話 世界主義者建議
one of the things we're doing… 我們所在做的其中一件事情
is exchanging ideas about what's right and wrong, 就是關於對與錯的交流
and that it's perfectly appropriate to do so. 而那是十分需要去做的
I have this privilege of having grown up in a couple of places. 我有幸成長於一些這樣的地方
My mother came from England. My father came from Ghana. 我的母親來自英國 我的父親來自加納
And they would never, either of them, 而他們都絕不會
tell us exactly how they met or exactly what it was that drew them to each other, 告訴我們他們相遇的情況以及是什麼讓他們彼此吸引
though my father always said that my mother had a splendidly un-English behind. 雖然我的父親經常說 我的母親有一個華麗的 非英國的背景
That it was- 而那是
She actually had a more African behind and he found that attractive. So I don't know. 事實上她有一個更加非洲化的背景 而他覺得那很有吸引力 所以我不知道
It happens that in the shanty where I grew up, kinship- that is, the family- 在我長大的那個棚屋里 親屬關係的組織形式
is organized in a very different way from the way that it's organized in England. 與英國的非常不同
We're what anthropologists call matrilineal. 我們是人類學家所稱的母系社會
That means that the most important adult male in a child's life… 那意味著一個孩子一生中 最重要的成年男性
isn't, um, his mother's husband, that is, his father. 並不是他母親的丈夫 也就是父親
It's his mother's brother, his maternal uncle. 而是他母親的兄弟 他的舅舅
There's a word for that; wofa. 有一個詞來稱呼 wofa
So I have, uh- uh, these eight people in the world, 所以在這個世界上 我有八個人
two- two young women… 兩個姑娘
and six young men who are my nephews and nieces. 和六個小夥子 我的侄子侄女們
I'm their wofa. And by our tradition, I’m- 我是他們的 wofa 而根據傳統
Since my sisters don't have any other brothers, 既然我的姐妹們並沒有別的兄弟
I'm the guy who's responsible for their education. 我是那個對我的侄子侄女們的教育負責的人
If anything bad happens to them, I'm supposed to look after them and so on. 假如他們遇到了糟糕的情況 我是那個應該去照顧他們之類的人
Um, now of course, in England, if you have a father, that's his job. 呃 當然 在英國 假如你有一個父親 那是他的責任範圍
There's a certain kind of universalist who will say, 普遍主義者會說
"One of these has to be correct.” "這其中的一種需要被糾正”
But the cosmopolitan says these are two ways of doing it, 但世界主義者會說 做這件事有兩種方法
and as long as they do the thing they're supposed to do, 只要他們以應該的方式做這件事
it seems to me absurd to suggest that one has to be better than the other, 對我來說 認為其中一種比另一種優越 是很荒謬的
or that one should be universalized for any reason. 或是其中一種應該以某種原因 推廣全球
One thing that people talk about all the time these days is conflicts of values across cultures, 人們當下一直談論的其中之一是文化價值的衝突
and often people think they're kind of inevitably irreconcilable… 而經常地人們認為它們是不可避免地不可調和
and that they're the root of all the difficulties in the world. 它们是這個世界困難的根源
And I- The first way, I think, 我想首先
you need to work to disentangle all the problems of that way of thinking… 你需要解開所有問題的結 以一種
is to recognize the huge diversity of values by which people are guided. 意識到 人們遵循的價值觀存在巨大差異的方式
We're different. The cosmopolitan thinks we're entitled to be different, 我們是不同的 世界主義者認為我們有權利不同
and that it's permissible that there should be differences in certain ways. 並且在某些情況下 應當有所不同
But the cosmopolitan also assumes the fact that there are all these different kinds of values… 但是世界主義者同樣假定了存在許多不同價值觀的事實
and the fact that we can recognize so many of them… 以及我們可以識別出很多價值觀的事實
is a recollection of the fact that we're all human beings, 這是我們都是人類這個事實的追憶/回憶
that we share what you might call a moral nature. 我們分享這個你也許稱之為道德本性的東西
[Appiah] Our responsibilities aren't just to a hundred people whom we can interact with and see. 我們的責任并不限於我們能與之交流、見到的數百人
And that's, I think, the great challenge. 而那是 我認為的巨大的挑戰
Cosmopolitanism, for me, is meant to be an answer to that challenge. 世界主義 于我 是對那個挑戰的一個解答
It's meant to say... 也就是說
you can't retreat to the hundred. 你不能後退到數百
You can't simply be partial to some tiny group… 不能只偏袒一些小團體
and simply live out your moral life in that. 或只在其中無道德地活著
That's not- That's not morally permissible. 那在道德/倫理上是不被允許的
But you can't abandon your local group either, 但你也無法放棄你當地的團體
because that would take you too far away, I think, from your humanity. 因為那會使你遠離 我認為 遠離你的人性
So what we have to do is to learn how to do both. 所以我們必須學會如何兼顧
[Nussbaum] Aristotle had the ingredients of a theory of justice… 亞裡士多德有關於正義理論的因素
that I think is very powerful. 我認為是非常有力的
And that is that it's the job of a good political arrangement… 而那屬於良好政治協議的工作
to provide each and every person… 給予每一個人
with what they need to become capable… 他們所需要的
of living rich and flourishing human lives. 來度過豐富而繁榮的人生
Now, of course, he didn't include all the people, 當然 他並沒有包括所有人
but he at least had that idea of supporting human capability… 但起碼他有支持人類能力的想法
that's the foundation of my own approach. 那是我的方法的基礎
Now then, in the 17th and 18th centuries, 在十七、十八世紀
a very powerful new approach came on the scene, 一個強大的新概念出現了
and that was the social contract approach- 那便是 社會契約
Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Kant. 霍布斯 洛克 盧梭 康德
The social contract approach was inspired… 社會契約理論是由
by the background culture of feudalism, 封建主義的文化背景所啟發的
where all opportunities were distributed unequally… 所有的機會都不公平地被分配
to people according to their class, 根據人們的階層、
their inherited wealth, and their status. 富裕程度以及社會地位
And so what these theorists said is try to imagine human beings… 因此這些理論家說 試著想像人類
stripped of all those inherited advantages, 剝離了一切繼承來的特權
placed in what they called the "state of nature," 處於他們所稱的 “自然狀態”之下
where they had only their natural body and their physical advantages, 只有自然賦予的軀體與身體上的優勢
and try to imagine what kind of arrangements the would actually make. 同時試著想像何種協議會隨之形成
The social contract tradition is, of course, 社會契約理論 當然
an academic, philosophical tradition, 是一個學術的、哲學傳統
but it also has tremendous influence on popular culture… 但同時對流行文化也產生了巨大影響
and our general public life. 還有大眾生活
Because we- Every day we hear things like, 因為我們每天都會聽到
"Oh, those people don't pay their own way.” “哦 這些人無法負擔自身的費用了”
Or, supporting some new group of people, 或是 支持新的群體
"Well, they'll be a drag on our economy.” “噢 他們拖了我們經濟的後腿”
So the idea that the good member of society is a producer... 所以一個好的社會成員的概念是一位生產者
who contributes advantage to everyone, that is very- a very live idea. 為所有人造福 這是一個非常當前的概念
And it lies behind the decline of welfare programs in this county. 也是這個國家福利項目減少的原因
I think it lies behind many Americans' skepticism about Europe, 我覺得這也是許多美國人對歐洲的懷疑背後的原因
about European social democracy. 關於歐洲的社會民主
You hear terms like the "Nanny State," 你聽到類似"保姆式國家"的說法
as though there were something wrong with the idea of maternal care… 好像 母性關懷的概念作為社會的實際作用
as a conception of what society actually does. 有什麼錯一樣
Um, we also see it in another way in images of who the real man is. 呃 我們同時也通過另一種形式理解：通過真正的人的形象
The real man is sort of like these people in the state of nature. 真正的人是類似於處於“自然狀態”下的人
He doesn't deeply need anyone. 他並不怎麼需要其他人
He isn't bound to anyone by ties of love and compassion. 也並不因愛或同情束縛于其他人
He's the loner who can go his own way… 他是自行其道的孤獨者
and then out of advantage, 同時也在特權之外
he'll choose to have certain kinds of social arrangements. 他會選擇某些特定的社會協議
The theorists of the social contract made certain assumptions that aren't always true. 社會契約的理論者做了一些並非完全正確的假定
They assumed that the parties to this contract… 他們假定了協議契約的各方
really are roughly equal in physical and mental power. 在物質與精神權力上都真正平等的
Now, that was fine… 現在 那是可以的
when you're thinking about adult men with no disabilities, 當你想到沒有殘疾的成年男性時
but as some of them already began to notice, 但是他們有一些已經開始意識到
it doesn't do so well when you think about women, 當你開始想到女性時 理論就不夠好了
because women's oppression has always been partly occasioned… 因為對女性的壓迫 總是部份產生於
by their physical weakness, compared to men. 他們的身體弱點 相比男性來說
And so if you leave out that physical asymmetry, 所以假如你撇開身體條件的不對等來說
you may be leaving out a problem that a theory of justice will need to fix. 你也許為一個關於正義的理論留下了需要解決的問題
But it certainly does not do well when we think about justice… 然而當我們開始考慮 有嚴重身體或精神殘疾的人
for people with serious physical and mental disabilities. 這個理論必定不夠好
And in fact, some of the theorists who noticed that said, 並且事實上 一些留意到的理論者說
"Well, this is a problem, but we'll just have to solve it later. “好吧 這是一個問題 但我們晚些解決它
We'll get the theory first, then we'll work on this problem at some other point.” 我們先解決理論 然後再解決問題”
Well, my thought is that this is not a small problem. 我的想法是 這並非小問題
There are a lot of people with serious physical and mental disabilities. 有很多人有身體與精神上的殘疾
But not only that, but it's all of us- 但不僅僅那點 對我們所有人來說
when we're little children and as we age. 當我們是小孩或老人時
How do you think about justice when you're dealing with bodies… 你如何思考關於正義/公平 當你面對
that are very, very unequal in their ability and their power? 在力量與權力上非常非常不平等的身體？
And perhaps even harder, 也許更加困難的是
how do you think about it when you're dealing with… 你如何考慮 當你面對
mental powers that are very, very unequal in their potential? 在潛力上非常非常不平等的精神能力？
And I think that this is a really serious political problem. 我認為這是嚴肅的政治問題
We have only just began to understand how to educate children with disabilities, 我們才剛開始理解如何教育有殘疾的兒童
how to think about their political representation, 如何考慮政治參與
how to design cities that are open to them. 如何為他們設計城市
I mean, this bridge we walked across, a person in a wheelchair can go over that bridge. 我是說 我們現在行走的這條橋 坐在輪椅上的人能夠通過
But, you know, 50 years ago that would not have been the case. 但是 五十年前 情況並非如此
There would have been steps, and that person could not get to see this beautiful lakeshore. 那時有台階 所以坐輪椅的人們無法觀看美麗的湖岸
The capabilities approach, as I've developed it as a theory of justice, 我所研究的能力理論 是關於正義的理論
begins with the idea that all human beings… 它以所有人類都擁有
have an inherent dignity… 固有的尊嚴
and require life circumstances… 和需要值得那份尊嚴的
that are worthy of that dignity. 生活處境開始
The areas of life that seem to me particularly important… 生命的領域對我來說特別重要
when we think about the capabilities are; 當我們思考關於能力
of course life is the very most basic one; 當然生命也是最為基礎的一個
bodily health; bodily integrity; 身體健康 身體完整
the development of the senses, imagination and thought; 感官 想像力與思維的發展
the development of practical reasoning; 實踐推理的發展
the development of affiliations, both more informal, 從屬關係的發展 包括非正式與正式的
in the family and friendship but also in the political community; 前者包括家庭與友誼 後者包括政治團體
the development of the ability to play… 發揮能力的機會的發展
and have recreational opportunities; 與擁有娛樂機會
the ability to have relationships… 發展關係的能力
with other creatures and the world of nature; 與自然中的其他物種
developing emotional capabilities, 發展情感的能力
because I think a lot of theories leave out the fact… 因為我認為很多理論忽略了...
that we don't want to have lives that are filled with fear, for example. 我們不想要生活在充滿恐懼的人生當中 比如
In my view, people get together to form a society… 在我來看 人們聚集在一起形成了一個社會
not because they're afraid… 並非因為他們害怕
and they want to strike a deal for mutual advantage, 於是為共同的利益達成協議
but it's much more out of love… 而更多地出於愛
that they want to join with others in creating a world that's as good as it can be. 他們想要與其他人一同創造一個盡善盡美的世界
[Astra Taylor] So, do you have to go to school to be a philosopher? 所以你需要去學校才能成為哲學家嗎？
[ West ] Oh, God, no. Thank God you don"t have to go to school. 噢 上帝/神啊 感謝上帝/神啊 你不需要去學校
No. A philosopher is a lover of wisdom. 不 哲學家是智慧的愛人
It takes tremendous discipline, it takes tremendous courage… 那需要巨大的鍛鍊 需要巨大的勇氣
to think for yourself, to examine yourself. 來思考你自己 來審視你自己
The Socratic imperative of examining yourself requires courage. 以蘇格拉底式必要地審視你自己需要勇氣
William Butler Yeats used to say it takes more courage… 威廉 巴特勒 葉芝說
to examine the dark corners of your own soul than it does for a soldier to fight on the battlefield. 審視你靈魂最黑暗的角落比在戰場上戰鬥的士兵更需要勇氣
Courage to think critically. You can't talk- 辯證思考所需要的勇氣 你不能說
Courage is the enabling virtue for any philosopher, 勇氣是任何哲學家最有利的美德
for any human being, I think in the end. 終極上 對於人類同樣
Courage to think, courage to love, courage to hope. 思考的勇氣 愛的勇氣 希望的勇氣
Plato says philosophy is a meditation on and a preparation for death. 柏拉圖說 哲學是一種對於死亡的冥想與準備
And by death, what he means is not an event, 他指的死亡並非事件
but a death in life because there's no rebirth, 而是生命中的死亡 因為沒有死亡 就沒有轉世
there's no change, there's no transformation without death. 沒有變化 沒有轉換
And therefore, the question becomes, how do you learn how to die? 因此 問題變成了 你如何學習如何死亡
And of course, Montaigne talks about that in his famous essay, 當然 蒙田在他著名的論文
"To Philosophize Is to Learn How to Die.” 哲學是學習如何死亡
You can't talk about truth without talking about learning how to die. 你無法避談如何學習死亡來討論真理
I believe that Theodor Adorno was right when he says… 我認為狄奧多·阿多諾是對的 當他說
that the condition of truth is to allow suffering to speak. 真理的條件就是容許痛苦的發言
That gives it an existential emphasis, you see. 那給予了存在上的強調
So we're really talking about truth as a way of life… 所以我們以生命的形式談論真理
as opposed to simply truth as a set of propositions… 作為對立于以一系列主張為形式的簡單的真理
that correspond to a set of things in the world. 對應於這個世界上的一套東西
Human beings are unable… 人類無法
to ever gain any monopoly on Truth, capital “T" 獲得任何獨佔的真理 大寫的“T"
We might have access to truth, small "t," but they're fallible claims about truth. 我們也許可以抵達真理 小寫的“t” 然而它們是對於真理不可靠的主張
We could be wrong. We have to be open to revision and so on. 我們可能是錯的 我們必須開放于重新修正之類的
So there is a certain kind of mystery that goes hand-in-hand with truth. 所以與真理緊密相連著 某種特定的神秘
This is why so many of the existential thinkers, be they religious, 這是為什麼那麼多存在主義思想家 都有宗教性
like Meister Eckhart or Paul Tillich, 像梅斯特 厄克哈 或 保羅·田立克
or be they secular, like Camus and Sartre, 或世俗的 像加繆和薩特
that they're accenting our finitude and our inability to fully grasp… 他們在強調我們的有限以及我們對於完全掌握
the ultimate nature of reality, the truth about things. 自然最終現實 關於事物真理的無力
And therefore, there, you talk about truth… 因此 你說到真理
being tied to the way to truth, 被綁在通往真理的道路上
because once you give up on the notion… 因為一旦你放棄了
of fully grasping the way the world is, 完全理解這個世界的方式的想法
you're gonna talk about what are the ways in which I can sustain my quest for truth. 你就要談論 何為我能夠維持對於探索真相的方法
How do you sustain a journey, a path toward truth, the way to truth? 你如何維持一段旅程 通向真理的道路
So the truth talk goes hand-in-hand with talk about the way to truth. 因此真理的探討與通往真理之路的探討緊密相連
And scientists could talk about this in terms of, you know, 而科學家可以談論 你知道的
inducing evidence and drawing reliable conclusions and so forth and so on. 引導證據 導出可靠結論之類的
Religious folk could talk about this in terms of… 宗教人可以談論
surrendering one's arrogance and pride... 放棄個人的傲慢與自負
in the face of divine revelation and what have you. 在神示如此等等之前
But they're always of acknowledging our finitude and our fallibility. 但它們都承認我們的有限與不可靠
I want all of the rich, historical colorations… 我想要所有的豐富的、歷史的顏色...
to be manifest in talking about our finitude. 都來展現我們的有限
Being born of a woman… 誕生于母體
in stank and stench- what I call “funk." 與惡臭與臭氣中 我稱之為臭味之中
Being introduced to the funk of life in the womb… 從子宮被介紹給生命的臭味...
and the love-push that gets you out. 以及愛的推力使你出來
Right? And then your body is not just death- 對吧？ 而那時你的身體並非只是死亡
The way Vico talks about it. And here Vico was so much better than Heidegger. 維柯談論的死亡 在這里維柯比海德格爾好多了
Vico talks about it in terms of being a corpse. 維柯談論 就成為一具屍體而言
See, Heidegger didn't talk about corpses. 你看 海德格爾不談論屍體
He talks about death. It's still too abstract. 他談論死亡 而那太過抽象
Absolutely. Read the poetry of John Donne. 當然 讀鄧約翰的詩
He'll tell you about corpsesa that decompose. 他會告訴你關於腐爛的屍體
Well, see, that's history. 那就是歷史 535 e
That's the raw funky, stanky stuff of life. 那是惡臭、臭味的生命本質
That's what bluesmen do. See, that's what jazzmen do. 那是布魯斯音樂者做的 明白嗎 那是爵士音樂者所做的
See, I'm a bluesman in the life of the mind. 明白嗎 在思維的人生中我是一位布魯斯音樂者
I'm a jazzman in the world of ideas. Therefore for me, music is central. 在觀念的世界裡 我是一位爵士音樂者 因此對我來說 音樂是中心
So when you're talking about poetry, for the most part, 因此當你多半談論詩歌時
Plato was talking primarily about, uh, words, 柏拉圖主要探討的是言語
whereas I talk about notes, I talk about tone, I talk about timbre, 而我探討音符、音調、音質
I talk about rhythms. 我探討節奏
You see, for me, music is fundamental. 你明白嗎 對我來說 音樂是必要的
Philosophy must go to school not only with the poets. 哲學家不僅要與詩人一起去學校
Philosophy needs to go to school with the musicians. 哲學家需要與音樂家一起去學校
Keep in mind, Plato bans the flute in the republic but not the lyre. 要記住 柏拉圖在《理想國》中禁止長笛 但不是里拉琴
Why? Because the flute appeals... 為什麼 因為長笛迎合
to all of these various sides of who we are… 我們的所有方面
given his tripartite conception of the soul; 根據他的「靈魂三分」論
the rational and the spirited and the appetitive. 理性的、靈性的和慾望的
And the flute is- appeals to all three of those, 而長笛迎合所有這三者
where he thinks the lyre on one string, it only appeals to one and therefore is permissible. 而他認為一根琴絃的里拉琴 它只迎合其中一者 因此是被許可的
Now of course, the irony is when Plato was on his deathbed, what did he do? 當然 諷刺的是當柏拉圖在他臨終之時 他做了什麼？
Well, he requested the Thracian girl to play music on the flute. 他請求色雷斯女孩用笛子演奏音樂
I'm a Christian, but I'm not a puritan. I believe in pleasure. 我是基督教徒 不是清教徒 我相信快樂
And orgiastic pleasure has its place. Intellectual pleasure has its place. Social pleasure has its place. 而狂歡的歡樂有其一席之地 思維的快樂有其一席之地 社交娛樂有其一席之地
Televisual pleasure has its place. You know, I like certain TV shows. 電視娛樂有其一席之地 知道嗎 我喜歡某些電視節目
My God, when it comes to music- Oh! 天啊 當涉及到音樂 噢
You know, Beethoven's 32nd Sonata, Opus 111. 貝多芬的第32號鋼琴奏鳴曲 OP111
Unbelievable aesthetic pleasure. 無可置信的美學享受
The same would be true for Curtis Mayfield or the Beatles or what have you. 同樣的 寇帝.梅菲或披頭士的音樂諸如此類的也如此
There's a certain pleasure of the life of the mind that cannot be denied. 精神生活中有無可否認的某種樂趣存在
It's true that you might be socially isolated, 也許你的確與社會孤立
because you're in the library, at home, and so on, 因為你在圖書館 在家中等等
but you're intensely alive. 但是你熱情地活著
In fact, you're much more alive than these folk… 事實上 你比這些行走在紐約街頭的人群
walking these streets of New York in crowds… 更有活力
with just no intellectual interrogation and questioning going at all. 那些沒有思維審視沒有疑問的
But if you read, you know, John Ruskin or you read a Mark Twain, 但假如你閱讀 像约翰·拉斯金 或 馬克吐溫
or, my God, Herman Melville, 或者 天啊 赫爾曼·梅爾維爾
you almost have to throw the book against the wall… 你幾乎要把書砸向牆壁
because you're almost so intensely alive that you need a break. 因為你如此熱烈地活著 你需要放鬆一下
[Astra Taylor] You get electrified. Exactly. ﹣你被電到了 ﹣一點不錯
It's time to take a break and get a little dullness in your life. 是時候休息一些 讓你的生活沉悶一點
Take Moby Dick, throw it against the wall the way Goethe threw von Kleist's work against the wall. 把《白鯨》向墻砸去 如同歌德將馮·克萊斯特的作品向牆砸去
It was just too much. It made Goethe- 不堪承受 這令歌德
It reminded Goethe of the darkness that he was escaping… 這令歌德回憶起了 當他戰勝自殺衝動后
after he overcame those suicidal impulses… 所逃離的黑暗
with Sorrows of Young Werther in the 1770s… 在《少年維特之煩惱》的十八世紀七十年代
that made his move toward neoclassicism in Weimar. 這令他走向 魏瑪的新古典主義
There are certain things that make us too alive almost. 有些特定的東西令我們近乎過分地活著
It's almost like being too intensely in love. You can't do anything. [Chuckles] 幾乎像在熱戀中 你無法做任何事(笑)
It's hard to get back the Kronos. It's hard to get back the everyday life, you know what I mean? 很難回到克隆那斯 很難回到日常生活 你明白嗎
That chirotic dimension of being in love with another person, 那種克隆那斯 維度上的對另一個人的愛
everything is so meaningful, you want to sustain it. It's true. 一切都如此有意義 你想要維持它 的確
You can't just do it, you know. You gotta go to the bathroom, have a drink of water. Shit. 但你做不到 你需要走到洗手間 喝杯水
For my generation in the mid-'80s when I was in my 20s… 我的這代人 在八十年代中期 當我二十幾歲時
just starting to do politics in a serious way, 剛剛開始以嚴肅的方式做政治
it seemed like the only way to- 對於變革/革命的慾望來說 似乎唯一的
the only outlet for revolutionay desire was to go to Central America… 路徑是去中美
and to somehow participate in, or at least observe, their revolutions. 並以某種方式參與活著起碼旁觀他們的革命
I mean, so a lot of people went to Nicaragua. 我的意思是 很多人去了尼加拉瓜
I, with my friends, was mostly interested in El Salvador. 我和我的朋友們對薩爾瓦多比較感興趣
But the, um- the thing I realized at a certain point… 但是我意識到在某點上
was that all we could do is really observe what their revolutions were. 我們能做的只是旁觀他們的革命
And the defining moment for me came in a meeting in El Salvador… 而那個關鍵時刻是在薩爾瓦多的一次集會上
with a group of, uh, students at the University of El Salvador. 來自薩爾瓦多大學的一群學生
And at a certain point, a friend there said, 在某時 一個朋友說
"Look, we're really grateful for these North American comrades who come to help us, “聽著 我們非常感謝你們這些來自北美的同志們來幫助我們”
"but we really- what would be really best for us… “但我們真正 對我們真正最好的是”
"is if you all would go home and make revolution in the U.S. “你們能夠回家 在美國發起革命”
That would really be better than trying to come help us here.” “那對我們會比在這裡幫助我們好”
And it was true, of course. I don't think any of these North Americans were particularly helpful… 而那是正確的 當然 我不認為那些北美人是有益的
in Nicaragua and El Salvador, et cetera. 在尼加拉瓜或薩爾瓦多等等
Um, and- But I said at that point- 但我說
"You know, Reagan's in the White House. “知道嗎 里根在白宮”
I have no idea what it would mean to make revolution in the U.S. I just don't have any-“ “我完全不知道在美國發起革命是怎樣的 我完全沒有頭緒”
And then he said, "Look, don't you have mountains in the U.S.?” 而他說 “聽著 難道你們美國沒有山嗎”
And I said, "Yeah. We have mountains." He says, "It's easy. 我說 “有啊 我們有山” 他說 “那很簡單
"You go to the mountains. You start an armed cell. You make revolution.” “你去山裡 開始建造一個武裝的囚室 你就製造革命了”
And I thought, "Oh, shit." You know. 而我想 “糟糕” 你明白的
It just didn't correspond to my reality. 我與我的現實脫離
Like those notions of constructing the armed cell, 比如建造這些武裝的囚室的概念
especially constructing the armed cell in the mountains and then sabotaging things. 尤其是在山上建造武裝的囚室 然後破壞事物
It didn't- It didn't make any sense at all, so we really had no idea how to do it. 對我來說道理不通 所以我們真的不知道如何做
Um, not just we didn't know practically- 不僅僅是我們不知道如何實踐地
like we didn't know which rifles to take up into the mountains. 例如不知道用哪種步槍佔領山
It's-The whole idea of what it involved was lacking, 整個它涉及到的概念都是缺乏的
um, and required a real conceptual rethinking. 呃 並且需要一個真正的理論的重新思考
We're stuck conceptually, I think, between two almost cliche ways of thinking revolution today. 我們在理論上被卡住了 我想 在當今兩種思考革命的最陳腐的方法中
On the one hand, we have… 一方面 我們有
the notion of revolution that involves… 包含
the replacement of a ruling elite… 以另一個統治精英
with another… 來替換
better, in many ways, ruling elite. 統治精英的革命概念
And that's in fact the form that many of the modern revolutions have taken… 而那事實上是許多現代革命的形式
and have posed great benefits for the people, et cetera, but they have not arrived at democracy. 使人們獲得巨大利益 但他們沒有到達民主
And so that notion of revolution is really discredited, and I think rightly so. 因此革命的概念事實上是不足信的
But opposed to that is another notion of revolution, 而與其相反的是革命的另一個概念
which I think is equally discredited from exactly the opposite point of view, 我認為從恰好相反的觀點來 同樣是不足信的
which is the notion of revolution- that, in fact hasn't been instituted- 那就是革命的概念 事實上尚未制定
that thinks of revolution as just the removal… 而思考關於革命僅僅只是去除
of all of those forms of authority- 各種權威的形式
state power, the power of capital- 國家權力 資本權力
that stop people from expressing their natural abilities to rule themselves. 那些阻止人們表達自然所賦予的支配自己的能力
The question of human nature has long been a thing of political philosophy. 一直以來 人類本性的問題是政治哲學的話題
In fact, I'm sure everyone had some stupid evening in college smoking way too much and talking, 事實上 我相信所有人 都在大學里某個愚蠢的夜晚 吸了過多煙 說
where you end up in a discussion where, like, you decide you disagree with your friend… 在談論的最終 你決定反對你的朋友
because she thinks that human nature's evil, 因為她認為人類本性是邪惡的
you think human nature's good, and you can't get any further. 而你認為是好的 但你無法講下去
I mean, this is- I think that kind of stupidity, I think, 我的意思是 我認為這是某種愚蠢 我想
has affected a lot of the history of political philosophy. 這在政治哲學的歷史上影響甚廣
And I think the relevant fact for politics- 並且我認為對於政治 有關的事實是
Running aground. 擱淺了
Shipwrecked. 船難
The relevant fact for politics is really that human nature's changeable. 對政治有關的事實是 人類本性是易變的
Human nature isn't good or evil. Human nature is, uh, constituted. 人類本性並非好或壞 人類本性是被構建的
It's constituted by how we act, how we- 它是被構建的 由我們如何行動 我們如何
The history- Human nature is, in fact, the histoy of habits and practices… 人類本性的歷史 事實上 習慣與實踐的歷史
that are the result of- of past struggles, 是過去努力的結果
of past hierarchies, of past victories and defeats. 是過去的領導、過去的勝利和失敗
And so this is, I think, actually- 而因此 我認為 事實上
The key to rethinking revolution is to recognize… 重新思考革命的關鍵 在於
that revolution… 意識到革命
is not just about... a transformation for democracy. 並非關於為民主的變革
It's really- Revolution really requires… 而事實上 革命需要
a transformation of human nature so that people are capable of democracy. 人類本性的變化 以使人們擁有民主的能力
Democracy is one of those concepts that seems to me has been… 民主是許多概念當中 對我來說
almost completely corrupted today. 在今日 近乎完全被毀壞的
In some cases, it's used to mean… 在某些情況下 過去民主的意思是
simply periodic elections with a limited choice of rulers. 對限定選擇的統治者的簡單的定期選舉
In other cases, when one thinks especially in international affairs, 在其他情況中 特別是國際事務中
it often means following the will of the United States. 它往往意味著跟隨美國的意志
But really, democracy means the rule of all by all. 但真的 民主意味著所有人來管理所有人
It means everybody involved in collective self-rule. 那意味著所有人都參與集體的自治
You see those turtles over there? 你看到那邊的烏龜了嗎？
How do you transform human nature so that people will be capable of democracy? 你如何改變人類本性 讓他們具有民主的能力？
Lenin's solution to this problem is a properly dialectical one. 列寧對於這個問題有一個合適而辯證的解答
He thinks- and this is in large part what the Soviets enact- 他認為 而這時蘇聯大面積實施的
that there has to be a negation of democracy. 那裡有對民主的否認
Call it "dictatorship of the proletariat,” 叫做“無產階級專政”
some sort of hegemonic state that would then operate the transition, 某種國家的霸權 能夠帶動變革的運作
that would transform human nature, 能夠改變人類本性
then to eventually arrive at the time when people are capable of democracy, 而最終到達人們擁有民主能力的時刻
the state's no longer necessary, et cetera. 而國家就不再必要之類的
It's properly the dialectical nature of this that seems to me mistaken. 這個理論的辯證的性質對我來說是錯誤的
How do people learn democracy? How does human nature change to become capable of democracy? 人們如何學習民主 人類本性如何改變 變得更擁有民主的能力？
Not by its opposite. 而不能通過它們的反面
It can only be done in a sort of positive development by- 它只能通過某種積極的發展做到
You can only learn democracy by doing it. 你只能通過學習民主的方式做到
And so that that seems to me- the conception- 因此對我來說
the only way it seems to me today to be able to rehabilitate… 修復革命概念
the conception of revolution. 似乎唯一的方式
Revolution then today refuses that dialectic between purgatory and paradise. 當今革命拒絕 地獄與天堂之間的辯證
It's rather instigating utopia every day. 它寧願每天鼓動烏托邦
There's something quite- that feels immediately quite inappropriate… 有某種非常 令人感覺立刻非常不合適地
about talking about revolution on such a- 談論 談論革命
what would be sort of like... aristocratic almost. 以一種近乎貴族的方式
I mean not even bourgeois. Aristocratic location. 我的意思是甚至不是資產階級 貴族式的地點
You know, rowing on a beautiful pond in a park… 在公園的一個美麗池塘里划船
with the rich of New York all around it, it seems like kind of an absurdity. 而昂貴的紐約圍繞著它 那似乎是某種荒謬
[Astra Taylor] Well, where would we pick that would be the revolutionary spot? 好吧 那麼我們應該選哪裡作為革命地點呢？
But then that would be cliche already. 但那已經是陳詞濫調了
Here, the cliche would be that you'd choose as a visual site… 這裡 陳詞濫調是你選擇一個可見的地點
either- either a scene of poverty… 無論是一個貧窮的場景
or a scene of labor and production. 或是一個勞作與生產的場景
Um, 呃
because then you would show the ones who would benefit from it, 因為那你便會展現那些從中受益的人們
and even the subjects, you know, the actors that would- that would conduct it. 甚至是主題 你明白的 那些主持它的演員們
But it strikes me in another way that it might be appropriate to have- 但以另一種方式 那啟發我 這也許是恰當地去
to work against such a conception of revolution… 以這種革命的概念反之而行
as, um- 如同 呃
as loss and as deprivation. 如同損失 如同缺乏
It makes little sense to me to say revolution can't be made in the United States… 對我來說 說美國不可能產生革命是無道理的
or revolution can't be made in New York because everyone is too comfortable, 或是紐約不能產生革命 因為所有人都太舒適了
because they have too much to lose, et cetera. 因為他們都會失去太多之類的
They too have an enormous amount to gain. 他們同樣能獲益巨大
When we say a better world is possible, 當我們說 一個更好的世界是可能的
we don't just mean a better world for those who are least off today. 我們不僅僅意味著 只為那些當今最不幸的人
We mean a better world for all of us. 我們意味著為所有人 我們的一個更美好的世界
[Man] This is where we should start feeling at home. 這是我們應該開始感到賓至如歸的地方
Part of our daily perception of reality… 我們對於現實的日常感知中有一部份
is that this disappears from our world. 是這個東西從我們的世界中消失
When you go to the toilet, shit disappears. You flush it. 當你去廁所 屎消失了 你沖走它
Of course rationally you know it's there in canalization and so on, 當然理性上你知道下水道的存在等等
but at a certain level of your most elementay experience, 但是在某種程度上 你最基礎的經驗
it disappears from your world. 它(屎)從你的世界裡消失
But the problem is that trash doesn't disappear. 而問題是 垃圾不會消失
I think ecology- 我認為生態學
The way we approach ecological problematic… 作為我們對待生態問題的方法
is maybe the crucial field of ideology today. 也許是今日關鍵的意識形態領域
And I use ideology in the traditional sense of illusory 并且(在此)我用的「意識形態」是傳統意義上的
wrong way of thinking and perceiving reality. 虛假、錯誤地思考以及感知現實的方式
Why? Ideology is not simply dreaming… 為什麼？意識形態並非簡單的
about false ideas and so on. 對於錯誤想法的幻想/做夢等等
Ideology addresses very real problems, but it mystifies them. 意識形態應對非常真實的問題但同時將其神秘化
One of the elementay ideological mechanisms, I claim, 意識形態中一個基本的機制，我稱之為
is what I call the temptation of meaning. 意義的誘惑
When something horrible happens, 當可怕的事情發生
our spontaneous tendency is to search for a meaning. 我們自發的傾向是尋找意義
It must mean something. You know, like AIDS. It was a trauma. 它必須意味著什麼 比如艾滋病 它是一個創傷
Then conservatives came and said it's punishment… 保守者過來說
for our sinful ways of life, and so on and so on. 這是對於罪惡的生活方式的懲罰等等
Even if we interpret a catastrophe as a punishment, 即使我們將災難解釋為懲罰
it makes it easier in a way... 都能使我們好過一些
because we know it's not just some terrifying blind force. 因為我們知道它並非某種可怕而盲目的力量
It has a meaning. 它有一個意義
It's better when you are in the middle of a catastrophe. 這讓身處災難之中的你感覺好一點
It's better to feel that God punished you than to feel that it just happened. 比起感到它就這樣發生了 想像上帝/神在懲罰你會好過一些
If God punished you, it's still a universe of meaning. 假如上帝/神懲罰你 那依然在有意義的宇宙中
And I think that that's where ecology as ideology enters. 而我認為 這裡便是生態學作為意識形態入場的地方
It's really the implicit premise of ecology… 生態學的隱藏前提是
that the existing world… 現存的世界
is the best possible world, 是可能的世界中最好的一個
in the sense of it's a balanced world... 在作為一個平衡的世界意義上說
which is disturbed through human hubris. 而它被人類的自大所打亂
So why do I find this problematic? 為什麼我認為這是有問題的呢
Because I think that this notion of nature- 因為我認為這種自然的觀念
nature as a harmonious, organic, 自然是和諧的、有機的
balanced, reproducing, almost living organism, 平衡的、豐饒的 近乎活體
which is then disturbed, perturbed, 然後被人類的自大所打擾、躁動、出軌
derailed through human hubris, technological exploitation and so on, 運用科技以剝削開採等等
is, I think, a secular version of the religious story of the Fall. 我認為是宗教故事「亞達夏娃的墮落」的世俗版本
And the answer should be- not that there is no fall- that we are part of nature, 而答案並非墮落並不存在 而我們是自然的一部份
but on the contrary, that there is no nature. 相反 自然並不存在
Nature is not a balanced totality which then we humans disturb. 自然並非一個平衡的為人類打擾的共同體
Nature is a big series… 自然是一系列巨大的
of unimaginable catastrophes. 不可想像的災難
We profit from them. What's our main source of energy today? Oil. 我們從中獲利 我們今日最主要的能源？石油
What are we aware- What is oil? 我們意識到什麼？什麼是石油？
Oil reserves beneath the earth are material remainders… 石油是餘留在地下
of an unimaginable catastrophe. 巨大災難的物質殘骸
Are we aware- Because we all know that oil- oil- oil is- 我們是否意識到 因為石油
oil is composed of the remainders of animal life, 石油是由動植物的屍體構成
plants and so on and so on. 之類的
Can you imagine what kind of unthinkable catastrophe… 你能想像在地球上要發生怎樣的
had to occur on Earth? 無法想像的災難？
So that is good to remember. 所以要記住這點
No. You call this porn? My God. 不是吧 你把這叫做色情雜誌 天哪
You can have a half of a hamburger. There is some cheese sandwich. 你可以吃半個漢堡 有一些乳酪三明治
Then you can have a muffin and some juice. 然後你可以吃一個鬆餅 喝一些果汁
Ecology will slowly turn, maybe, 生態學將漸漸變成 或許
into a new opium of the masses… 新的大眾鴉片
the way, as we all know, Marx defined religion. 以一種 我們都知道的 馬克思對於宗教的定義的方式
What we expect from religion is a kind of an unquestionable highest authority. 我們對於宗教的期待是一種無可非議的最高權威
It's God's word, so it is. You don't debate it. 這是上帝/神的話 就是這樣 你不能與它爭論
Today, I claim, 今日 我認為
ecology is more and more taking over this role... 生態學越來越扮演這個
of a conservative ideology. 保守意識形態的角色
Whenever there is a new scientific breakthrough- biogenetic development, whatever- 每當一個新的科技突破出現 生物基因的發展
it is as if the voice… 都似乎有一個聲音
which warns us not to trespass, 警告我們不要逾越
violate a certain invisible limit… 違反某種隱形的限制
like, "Don't do that. It would be too much.” 例如 “不要那樣做 那會太過分了”
That voice is today more and more the voice of ecology. 那個聲音 現下越來越來自於生態學
Like, "Don't mess with D.N.A. 例如 “別亂搞DNA”
Don't mess with nature. Don't do it”- 別亂搞大自然
this basic conservative… 這種基本的保守的
partly ideological mistrust of change. 部份上為意識形態上對變化的不信任
This is today ecology. 這就是今日的生態學
Another myth which is popular about ecology- 另一個有關生態學的流行的迷思
namely a spontaneous ideological myth- 也就是一個自發的意識形態上的迷思
is the idea that we Western people… 是我們這些
in our artificial technological environment… 身處人工技術環境中的西方人
are alienated from immediate natural environments- 與目前的自然環境產生了疏離
that we should not forget… 我們不該忘記
that we humans are part of the living Earth. 我們人類是活著的自然的一部份
We should not forget that we are not abstract engineers, 我們不應該忘記我們並非只剝削自然的
theorists who just exploit nature- 抽象的工程師或理論家
that we are part of nature, that nature is our unfathomable, impenetrable background. 我們是自然的一部份 自然是我們難以了解、無法穿越的背景
I think that that precisely is the greatest danger. 我認為那恰是最大的危險
Why? Think about a certain obvious paradox. 為什麼？想想一個顯而易見的悖論
We all know in what danger we all are- 我們都知道我們身處何種危機之中
global warming, possibility of other ecological catastrophes and so on and so on. 全球變暖 其他生態災難的可能等等
But why don't we do anything about it? 但為何我們什麼都不做？
It is, I think, a nice example… 我認為這是
of what in psychoanalysis we call disavowal. 精神分析中 否認的絕佳範例
The logic is that of, "I know very well, 邏輯是 ”我很明白
but I act as if I don't know.” 但我以不知情的方式行事”
For example, precisely, 例如，準確地
in the case of ecology, I know very well there may be global warming, 在生態學的例子中 我非常明白全球變暖的可能
everything will explode, be destroyed. 一切都會爆炸、被毀滅。
But after reading a treatise on it, what do I do? 但在閱讀相關論文之後 我做了什麼？
I step out. I see- not things that I see now behind me- 我置身事外 我看 不是看我身後的東西
that's a nice sight for me- 那對於我是個不錯的景觀
I see nice trees, birds singing and so on. 我看美麗的樹林 小鳥唱歌之類的
And even if I know rationally this is all in danger, 即使我理智地明白這一切都在危機之中
I simply do not believe that this can be destroyed. 我還是不能單純地相信這可能被毀滅
That's the horror of visiting sites of a catastrophe like Chernobyl. 這便是造訪諸如切爾諾貝利的恐怖之處
You- In a way, we are not evolutionarily- 在某種程度上 我們尚未進化到
We are not wired to even imagine something like that. 我們尚未被賦予理解這種災難的能力
It's in a way unimaginable. 在某種程度上是不可想像的
So I think that what we should do… 因此我認為 為了正確應對
to confront properly the threat of ecological catastrophe... 生態災難的威脅 我們應該做的
is not all this New Age stuff… 並非這些新世紀的東西
to break out of this technological manipulative mold… 並非脫離技術上的操控模式
and to found our roots in nature, 找尋自然中我們的根源
but, on the contrary, to cut off even more these roots in nature. 而是 相反地 切斷更多與自然的聯繫
We need more alienation from our life-world, 我們需要更多的疏離 于我們的生活世界
from our, as it were, spontaneous nature. 于我們的 可以說 自然屬性
We should become more artificial. 我們應該變得更加人工化
We should develop, I think, a much more terrifying new abstract materialism, 我們應該發展 我認為 一個更加恐怖的抽象的唯物主義
a kind of a mathematical universe where there is nothing. 一種數學宇宙 那裡什麼都沒有
There are just formulas, technical forms and so on. 只存在方程式 技術形態等等
And the difficult thing is to find poetry, 而困難在於如何自此之中尋求詩與靈性
spirituality, in this dimension… 在這個維度當中
to recreate-if not beauty- then aesthetic dimension… 在垃圾之中 重造美感
in things like this, in trash itself. 或是美學維度
That's the true love of the world. 那才是對於世界的真愛
Because what is love? Love is not idealization. 因為何為愛？愛並非理想化
Every true lover knows that if you really love a woman or a man, 每一個真實的情人都了解 假如你真的愛一個女人/男人
that you don't idealize him or her. 你不會將他/她理想化
Love means that you accept a person… 愛意味著你接受這個人...
with all its failures, stupidities, ugly points. 包括他/她得失敗、愚蠢與丑的地方
And nonetheless, the person's absolute for you. 而依然 這個人對你來說是絕對的
Everything life- that makes life worth living. 令你覺得人生值得活下去的一切
But you see perfection in imperfection itself. 而你在不完美中看到了完美
And that's how we should learn to love the world. 而那便是我們應該學會去愛這個世界
True ecologist loves all this. 真正的生態學愛這些
I thought we should take this walk together. 我認為我們應該一起散這個步
And, um- 然後 呃
One of the things I wanted to talk about was what it means for us to take a walk together. 其中一個我想說的是 我們一起散步的含義是什麼
When I first asked you about this, um, you told me you take walks, you take strolls. 當我第一次問你關於這個 呃 你告訴我 你散步 閒逛
I do. And… 我是的 還有
can you say something about, um, what that is for you? 你可以說一下 那對你來說 是怎樣的？
When do you do it and how do you do it and what words do you have for it? 你什麼時候散步 如何散步 想說些什麼？
Well I think that I- I always go for a walk- Mm-hmm. 我想我經常散步 嗯
Probably every day I go for a walk. Every day. 也許每天都是 每一天
Um, and I always tell people that I'm going for walks. 我總是告訴人們 我要去散步了
I use that word. 我使用那個詞
And most of the disabled people who I know use that term also. 而大多數我認識的殘疾人都用那個詞
And which environments make it possible for you to take a walk? 哪些環境能夠讓你散步呢？
I moved to San Francisco largely because it's the most accessible place in the world. 我搬到舊金山 大部份因為那是世界上最方便的地方
Yes. And part of what's so amazing to me about it… 是的 而且那裡令我驚訝的部份是
is that the- the physical access- 是可接近的設施
the fact that the public transportation is accessible, 大眾交通可接近使用的這個事實
there's curb cuts most places. 大多數區域都有路緣坡
Almost most places I'll go, there's curb cuts. Buildings are accessible. 大多數我去的地方都有路緣坡 建築是可以抵達的
And what this does is that it also leads to a social acceptability, 而這裡導向社會接納度
that somehow because- because there's physical access, 因為有可接近的設施
there're simply more disabled people out and about in the world. 世界上就有更多的殘疾人出來活動
And so people have learned how to interact with them… 因此人們學習如何與他們交流
and are used to them in this certain way. Yes. 並且習慣他們 以這種方式 是的
And so the physical access actually leads to, um, 因此可接近的設施能導致
a social access, an acceptance. Yeah. 來自社會的接納 一種接受 是的
It must be nice not to always have to be the pioneer. 不必總做先驅的感覺一定很好
Yes, definitely. Definitely. The very first one they meet… 是的 當然 當然 第一個他們遇到的
The first disabled person they've ever seen. and having to explain. 第一個他們遇到的殘疾人 必須要解釋
Yeah. And yes I do, you know, speak… 是的 我的確 你知道的 說...
and think and talk and move and enjoy life... Yes. 思考 說話 移動 享受生活 是的
and suffer many of the same heartaches that you do. 忍受那些與你一樣的頭痛
Anyway, um, 不管怎樣 呃
but what I'm wondering about is, um, moving in social space, right? 但我疑惑的是 進入社會空間？
Moving- all the movements you can do… 你移動 所有的活動 你能夠做的
and which help you live and which express you in various ways. 讓你生存的 讓你以各種方式表達的
Um, do you feel free to move in all the ways you want to move? 呃 你覺得所有你活動的方式都無拘束嗎？
I can go into a coffee shop and actually pick up the cup with my mouth… 我可以走進咖啡屋 并事實上用我的嘴巴拿起一個杯子
and carry it to my table. 然後放到我的桌子上
But then that- that becomes almost more difficult… 但那開始變得困難
because of the- 因為
just the normalizing standards of our movements... Yes. 我們活動的正常標準
and the discomfort that that causes… 和那造成的不適
when I do things with body parts… 當我用我的身體部份做一些事情時
that aren't necessarily what we assume that they're for. 並不必要地 是我們假定的他們的用途
That seems to be even more, um, 那似乎對於人們來說
hard for people to deal with. 有點難以接受
Is that somebody's shoe? Someone's shoe. 那是誰的鞋子嗎 某人的鞋子
I wonder if they can walk without it. Yeah. 我猜他們可以不穿鞋子行走 是的
I'm just thinking that nobody takes a walk without there being a technique of walking. 我在想 沒有人能夠脫離散步的技能去散步
Yeah. Nobody goes for a walk… 是的 沒有人能夠去散步
without there being something that supports that walk, uh, outside of ourselves. 卻沒有任何支持哪個散步的 在我們自身之外
Mm-hmm. Um, and that maybe we have a false idea, 嗯 呃 也許我們有一個錯誤的觀念
um, that the able-bodied person is somehow radically self-sufficient. 呃 那就是身體健全的人本質上是自給自足的
[Sunaura Taylor] Yeah. 對
It wasn't until I was in my early 20s, about 20 or 21, 直至我二十出頭的時候 大概20或21歲
that I became aware of disability… 我才意識到殘疾
as a political issue. 是一個政治問題
Um, and that happened largely through discovering the social model of disability… 很大程度上通過發現殘疾的社會模式
which is basically- 本質上
In disability studies, they have a distinction… 在殘疾學中 他們有區別
between disability and impairment. Yeah. 殘疾與損傷 是的
So impairment would be my- my body, my embodiment right now. 所以損傷是 我的身體 我現在的關節彎曲
The fact that I was born with arthrogyposis, 我出生時就是關節彎曲的事實
which affects- what the medical world has labeled as arthrogyposis- 那所導致的 醫學界所標示的關節彎曲
Um, but basically that my joints are-are-are-are fused. 但基本上我的關節是融合在一起了
My muscles are weaker. I can't move in certain ways. 我的肌肉非常虛弱 一些特定方式下 我很難移動
And this does affect my life in all sorts of situations. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 而那卻是對我的生活產生了各種影響 嗯嗯
For instance, you know, there's a plum tree in my backyard. 例如 你知道的 在我的后院裡有棵李子樹
I can't pick the plums off the plum tree. 我無法從李子樹上摘到李子
I have to wait for them to drop or whatever. 我需要等待它們墜落
Um, but then- And so there's that- there's that embodiment, 呃 但因此那裡有體現
um, our own unique embodiments. 我們自己的獨特的體現
And then there's disability which is basically the- 而那裡又有殘疾 基本上是
the... social repression of disabled people. 對於殘疾人的社會壓迫
The fact that disabled people have limited housing options. 殘疾人只有有限的房子選擇的事實
We don't have career opportunities. 我們沒有工作機會
Um, we're socially isolated. 我們被社會孤立
We're, um- 我們 呃
You know, in many ways, there's a cultural aversion to disabled people. 你明白的 許多方式 對殘疾人有文化上的厭惡
So would disability be the social organization of impairment? 所以殘疾是否是損傷的社會機制呢
The disabling effects, basically, of society. 殘疾最終影響到社會
What happened? Did you come in contact with disability activists? 發生了什麼 你遇到了殘疾權利運動者嗎？
Or did you read certain things? I read a book review actually. ﹣或你讀了什麼 ﹣我讀了一篇書評事實上
Oh, really? Yeah, I just read a book review. ﹣噢 是嗎 ﹣是的 我讀了一篇書評
And when that happened, I lived in Brooklyn. 發生的時候我在布魯克林
And I would- I would really try to make myself go out… 我真的非常努力使自己出門
and just order a coffee by myself. Yes. 而僅僅是點一杯咖啡 為我自己 是的
And I would sit for hours beforehand in the park… 我會之前坐在公園裡幾個小時
just trying to get up the nerve to do that. Oh. ﹣努力有勇氣那麼做 ﹣噢
In a way, it's a political protest for me to go in… 某種形勢下 這對我來說是政治示威
and order a coffee and demand help… 點一杯咖啡 要求幫助
simply because in my opinion, help is something that we all need. 僅僅因為在我看來 幫助並非我們需要的
Yes. And it's something that is- is, you know, looked down upon… 是的 而這是 你知道的 被忽視的
and... not really taken care of in this society… 在社會中並未被重視的
when we all- when we all need help... Yes. 當我們都需要幫助 是的
and we're all interdependent in all sorts of ways. Yes. 而我們都彼此依存 以某種方式 是的
Should we stop and get me something warm? 我們應該停下 給我買一些溫暖的東西嗎
I don't know, honey. That's pretty fancy. 我不知道 甜心 那看起來很不錯
Let's go find something good. 讓我們去找些好的東西
Yeah, I think that would probably fall off my shoulders. 好吧 我覺得那會從我的肩上掉下去
Although I guess we can try it on. 雖然我猜我可以試試看
Basically, that's the back, yeah. That would be- 那是背面 是的 那會是
Yeah. 對
Okay. 好吧
Other arm. Other arm? 另隻手. 另隻手？
And I like it. It's stylish. It's very stylish. 我喜歡 很時髦 這非常時髦
Okay. It's kind of, you know, 好吧 這有點 你知道的
sporty and fancy. 運動地 出色地
It's gonna be a new show, Shopping With Judith Butler. 這可以是新節目 與朱迪丝·巴特勒一起購物
For the Queer Eye. 為酷兒之眼
Maybe I can just get it while wearing it. 也許我可以穿著得到它
[Clerk] Hey. Hi. We put the sweater on. 嗨 我們把毛衣穿上了
Yeah, so I'm actually buying the one that I'm wearing. We just wanna buy it. 對 我要買這件我穿著的 我們要買它
Okay. Um, so it's by weight. 好的 呃 這是來稱的
Oh, it's by weight? Can we guess? 稱重？我們能猜嗎？
I can probably just do it for four bucks plus tax. That sounds good. ﹣我想四美元加稅夠了 ﹣聽起來不錯
Here you go. 給你
Can you give me the- the bills first and then give me the change? Sure. ﹣可以先給我紙幣 然後零錢嗎 ﹣當然
Oh. Oh, I just meant the- Oh, you just want- 哦 我只是意思 我就是想要
Yeah, I just can't hold both at the same time. There you go. ﹣好的 我就是不能同時拿紙幣和零錢 ﹣給你
There you go. Thanks. Thanks so much. ﹣給你 ﹣謝謝 非常感謝
I think gender and disability converge in a whole lot of different ways. 我認為性別與殘疾在很多方式下都相似
Yeah. But one thing I think both movements do… 對啊 但其中我認為這兩者
is get us to rethink, um, what the body can do. 都令我們重新思考 我們的身體能做什麼
There's an essay by the philosopher Gilles Deleuze called "What Can a Body Do?” 哲學家吉爾·德勒茲有一篇論文叫做 "身體能做什麼?”
Uh, and the question is supposed to challenge, um, the traditional ways… 呃 問題在於挑戰
in which we think about bodies. Mm-hmm. 我們對身體的傳統思考 嗯
We usually ask, you know, what is a body... 我們經常問 你知道的 什麼是身體
or what is the ideal form of a body… 身體的概念如何得出
or, you know, what's the difference between the body and the soul… 或者 什麼是身體和靈魂的區別
and that kind of thing. Yeah. 那類事情 對的
Uh, but "what can a body do?" is, um- is a different question. 呃 但是 "身體能做什麼?”是另一個不同的問題
It's- It- It isolates a set of capacities… 它孤立了一系列能力
and a set of instrumentalities or actions, 一系列方法或行為
and we are kind of assemblages of those things. Mm-hmm. 而我們有點是那些東西的聚集 嗯
Um, and I like this idea. 呃 我喜歡這個想法
It's- It's not like there's an essence, 這並不像那裡有本質
and it's not like there's an ideal morphology- 並不像那裡有理想的形態學
you know, what a body should look like. 你知道的 身體應該看起來怎麼樣
It's exactly not that question. Yeah. Yeah. 準確地說不是那個問題 對 對
[Laughs] Or what a body should move like. Mm-hmm. 或者身體應該如何運動 嗯
Um, and one of the things that I found… 呃 我發現的其中一件事
in thinking about gender and even violence… 通過思考性別與甚至暴力對抗
against, uh, sexual minorities or gender minorities- 性取向與性別上的少數族群
people whose gender presentation doesn't conform with standard ideals… 那些性別外觀並不遵守標準觀點的人們
of femininity or masculinity- 女性特質或男性特質
is that very often, um, 都非常經常
it comes down to, uh, 歸根為
you know, how people walk, how they use their hips, what they do with their body parts, 你明白的 人們如何行走 如何用它們的臀部 他們如何使用身體部份
uh, what they use their mouth for, [Laughs] 他們如何使用嘴巴(笑)
what they use their anus for or what they allow their anus to be used for. 他們如何使用肛門 或 他們允許他們的肛門用來做什麼
There's a guy in Maine who- I guess he was around 18 years old. 在緬因州有個人 我想他大概18歲左右
And, uh, he walked with a very, um, 他的走路方式帶有一種非常 呃
distinct swish. 明顯的沙沙聲
You know, the hips going one way or another- and very feminine walk. 他的臀部擺向一邊或另一邊 非常女性化的走路方式
But one day he was walking to school, 但有天 他走路去學校
and he was attacked by three of his classmates, 被三個同學襲擊了
and he was thrown over a bridge and he was killed. 他被扔下橋 他被殺了
And, um, the question that community had to deal with- 而那個社區面對的問題是
and, indeed, the entire media that covered this event- 同時 甚至 整個報導這個事件的媒體來說
was, you know, how could it be that somebody's gait, 你明白的 一個人的步態如何會
that somebody's style of walking… 一個人行走的風格
could engender the desire to kill that person? 為何會引起別人想殺他的慾望？
And that, you know- that makes me think about the walk in a different way. 那令我對行走/散步有了完全不同的思考方式
I mean, a walk can be a dangerous thing. 我的意思是 行走/散步可能是危險的
I'm just remembering when I was little- when I did walk- 我想起當我是小孩子時 當我走路
I would be told that I walked Iike a monkey. Ah. 我會被告知我看起來像猴子 啊
And I think that for a lot of, you know, disabled people, 而我想了很多 關於殘疾人
the violence and the- 存在的暴力
the- the sort of- the hatred exists a lot… 與仇恨是那麼多
in- in- in this, um, 在 呃
reminding of people… 使人們想起
that our bodies are... going to age… 我們的身體將會變老
and are, um, going to die. 會死去
And- 同時
You know, in some ways, I wonder also just, you know- just thinking about the monkey comment… 你知道嗎 某些情況下 我疑惑 我僅僅思考關於猴子的評價
if it is also a level of, um- 這也是一個層面上的 呃
and this is just a thought off the top of my head right now- 這只是我現在腦中想到的
but just, um, 但僅僅 呃
the- the sort of… 某種
where- where our boundaries lie as a human… 我們為人與非人的界限
and what becomes non-human, you know. 你知道的
It makes me wonder whether the person was anti-evolutionary. 那讓我疑惑 這個人是不是反進化論的
Yeah. Maybe they were a creationist. 對 也許他們是神靈論者
It's like, "Well, why shouldn't we have some resemblance to the monkey?" I mean- 像 “為什麼我們不該與猴子有相似之處呢” 我是說
Well, the monkey's actually always been my favorite animal too. 好吧 猴子一直是我最喜歡的動物
So actually quite a lot of the time I was flattered. 所以我事實上被奉承了
Exactly. Yeah. 一點不錯 對
But that- that- 但那
When- When- When in those in-between moments… 但在那些瞬間
of, you know- in between male and-and female… 你知道的 在男與女
or in between, um- uh, death and-and health- 死亡與健康之間
when- when do you still count as a human? 你如何被為當作人來看？
My sense is that what's at stake here… 我覺得這裡重要的是
is really rethinking the human as a site of interdependency. Mm-hmm. 真正地重新思考人作為彼此互相依賴的點 嗯
And I think, you know, when you walk into the coffee shop. Right? 而我想 你知道的 當你走進咖啡屋 對吧？
If I can go back to that moment for a moment. 假如我能夠會到那個時刻一會兒
And you- you ask for the coffee, 而你點了咖啡
or you, indeed, even ask for some assistance with the coffee, 或者你因那杯咖啡尋求幫助
um, you're basically posing the question- 你根本上提出了一個問題
Do we or do we not live in a world in which we assist each other? [Laughs] Yeah. 難道我們不是在一個互幫互助的世界中嗎(笑) 對啊
Do we or do we not help each other with- with basic needs? 我們是否應該彼此幫助最基本的需要？
And are basic needs there to be decided on as a social issue… 並且這些基本的需要被認為是社會問題
and not just my personal, individual issue… 並非我個人的問題
or your personal, individual issue? 或是你的 個人的問題
So, I mean, there's a challenge to individualism… 因此 我想 這是個人主義所面對的挑戰
that happens at the moment in which you ask for some assistance with the coffee cup. 那發生在你為一杯咖啡所詢問幫助的時刻
Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully, people will take it up… 對 對 而順利的話 人們會接受
and say, "Yes, I too live in that world... Yeah. 並說 “是的 我住在那個世界” 對
in which I understand that we need each other in order to address our basic needs.” 我理解我們彼此幫助來解決最基本的需求
Mm-hmm. You know. 嗯 你知道
And- And I wanna organize a social, political world on the basis of that recognition. 我想要以這個共識組織一個社會的、政治的領域
[West] Romanticism thoroughly saturated the discourse of modern thinkers. 浪漫主義徹底充滿了現代思想者的論述
Can you totalize? Can you make things whole? [Astra Taylor] Right. ﹣你能總和化嗎 你能將事物變成一體的嗎 ﹣對
Can you create harmony? And if you can't, disappointment. 你能創造和諧嗎？ 如果你不能 失望
Disappointment's always at the center. Failure's always at the center. 失望總在最中心 失敗總是最中心的
But where'd the Romanticism come from? Why begin with Romanticism? See, I don't begin with Romanticism. 而浪漫主義者從何而來？ 以何開始？ 我不以浪漫主義者開始
You remember what Beethoven said on his deathbed, you know. 你記得當貝多芬在垂死之時 你知道
He said, "I've learned to look at the world… 他說 “我學會了去注視這個世界
in all of its darkness and evil and still love it.” 包括它所有的黑暗與邪惡 而依然熱愛它”
And that's not Romantic Beethoven. This is the Beethoven of the String Quartet 131,” 而那不是浪漫的貝多芬 那是貝多芬的絃樂四重奏 作品131號
the greatest string quartet ever written- not just in classical music. 歷史上最偉大的絃樂四重奏 不僅限于古典音樂
But of course it's a European form, so Beethoven is the grand master. 但當然這是歐洲形式的 所以貝多芬是大師
But the string quartet- you go back to those movements, 但絃樂四重奏 你回到那些樂章
it's no Romantic wholeness to be shattered, as in the early Beethoven. 並非全是浪漫主義 在早期的貝多芬音樂中
He's given up on that, you see. 他放棄了那個 你知道
This is where Chekhov begins. This is where the blues starts. This is where jazz starts. 這是契科夫開始的地方 這是布魯斯開始的地方 這是爵士開始的地方
You think Charlie Parker's upset 'cause he can't sustain a harmony? 你認為查理·帕克不開心 因為他無法保持和諧？
He didn't care about the harmony. He was trying to completely ride on the dissonance, ride on the blue notes. 他對和諧一屑不顧 他完全嘗試駕馭不和諧的音符 駕馭布魯斯音調
Of course he's got harmony in terms of its interventions here and there. 當然他通過介入這裡或那裡達到和諧
But why start with this obsession with wholeness? 但是為何要以對和諧的偏執未開始呢
And if you can't have it, then you're disappointed and wanna have a drink… 而當你做不到 你就很挫敗 想喝酒
and melancholia and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 或抑鬱之類的
No. You see, the blues- my kind of blues- 不 你看 我的布魯斯音樂 我的這種
begins with catastrophe, begins with the Angel of History in Benjamin's Theses. 以災難開始 以本雅明的 歷史天使開始
You see. It begins with the pillage, the wreckage- 你看 以掠奪開始
one pile on another. 以堆積的殘骸開始
That's the starting point. The blues is personal catastrophe lyrically expressed. 那是出發點 布魯斯是以歌詞表達的個人災難
And black people in America and in the modern world- 在美國的黑人和現代世界
given these vicious legacies of white supremacy- 介於白人優越主義的邪惡遺贈
it is how do you generate… 是你如何產生
an elegance of earned self-togetherness… 得到自我歸屬感的高貴
so that you have a stick-to-it-ness… 因此你堅持到底
in the face of the catastrophic and the calamitous… 在災難與悲慘面前
and the horrendous and the scandalous and the monstrous. 在恐怖、醜聞與怪物面前
See, part of the problem, though, is that, see, when you have a Romantic project, 部份問題 儘管 當你有一個浪漫主義的計劃
you're so obsessed with time as loss and time as a taker. 你如此執著于時間是一種流失 時間作為接受者
Whereas, as a Chekhovian Christian, I wanna stress, as well, 然而 契科夫的基督教的 我想強調 同樣
time as a gift and time as a giver. 時間是一個禮物 時間是一個給予者
So that, yes, it's failure, but how good is a failure? You done some wonderful things. 因此 對 這是失敗 但失敗有什麼好呢？ 你做了一些很好的事情
Now, Beckett could say, you know, "Try again, fail again, fail better.” 貝克特會說 "再試一次, 再失敗一次, 失敗地更好.”
But why call it failure? I mean, why not say you have a sense of gratitude... 但我如何稱之為失敗？ 我是說 你為什麼不說你有感恩的意思
that you're able to do as much as you did? 你所能夠做與你做的一樣多
You're able to love as much and think as much… 你能夠愛的與能想到的一樣多
and play as much. 或是玩得一樣多
Why think you needed the whole thing? 你為什麼想你需要這一切？
You see what I mean? This is even disturbing about America. 你明白我的意思嗎 這對美國來說都非常令人不安
And, of course, America is a Romantic project. 而 當然 美國是一個浪漫的計劃
It's paradisal, "City on a Hill" and all this other mess and lies and so on. 天堂式的 山上的城市 和其他的混亂和謊言等等
I say no, no. America is a very fragile democratic experiment, 我說 不對 美國是一個非常脆弱的民主試驗
predicated on the dispossession of the lands of indigenous peoples… 基於對土著人民土地的剝奪
and the enslavement of African peoples and the subjugation of women… 對非洲人民的奴役和對女性的征服
and the marginalization of gays and lesbians. 以及對男女同性戀的邊緣化
And it has great potential. 而它有很大的潛力
But this notion that somehow, you know, we had it all… 但這個想法 以某種方式 你知道的 無論我們擁有
or ever will have it all, it's got to go. 或將擁有所有 都要放手
You got to push it to the side. 你需要把它推到另一邊
And once you push all that to the side, then it tends to evacuate the language of disappointment… 一旦你把所有推到另一邊 然後它會傾向於疏散失望的語言
and the language of failure. 失敗的語言
And you say- Okay, well, how much have we done? 而你說 好吧 那麼我們做到了哪些？
How have we been able to do it? 我們如何能夠做到的？
Can we do more? Well, in certain situations, you can't do more. 我們能做得更多嗎 在一些情況下 你做不到
It's like trying to break-dance at 75. You can't do it anymore. 就好像75歲時跳霹靂舞 你就是做不到
You were a master at 16. It's over. 你十六歲是是個大師 但那結束了
You can't make love at 80 the way you did at 20. So what? 你沒有辦法像在20歲那時一樣在80歲時做愛 那又如何？
Time is real. 時間是真切的
So the one question that keeps coming up- or a phrase- 所以一個一直浮現的問題或詞句是
is this idea of the meaningful life. 是有意義的人生的概念
Do you think it is philosophy's duty to speak on this? 你是否認為這是哲學家的義務 來談論這個？
A meaningful life? How to live a meaningful life. 有意義的人生？ 如何度過有意義的人生
Is that even a relevant- Is that even an appropriate question for a philosopher? 那是否相關？對哲學家來說 那是否是一個合適的問題？
No, I think it is. No, I think the problem with meaning is vey important. 不 我相信是的 我相信意義的問題很重要
Nihilism is a serious challenge. 虛無主義是一個嚴肅的挑戰
Meaninglessness is a serious challenge. 無意義是一個嚴肅的挑戰
Even making sense of meaninglessness is itself a kind of discipline and achievement. 領會無意義本身甚至就是一種鍛鍊和完成。
The problem is, of course, you never reach it, you know. 問題是 當然 你永遠無法到達 你知道的
It's not a static, stationary telos or end or aim. 它並非靜止的 不動的終極目的或終點或目的
It's a process that one never reaches. It's Sisyphean. 它是一個人永遠無法到達的過程 它是西西弗斯式的
You're going up the hill looking for better meanings… 你爬上山 尋找更好的意義
or grander, more enabling meanings. 或更宏大的 更有力的意義
But you never reach it. 但你永遠無法到達它
Uh, you know, in that sense, 嗯 你知道 在這個意義上
you die without being able to "have" the whole, 你在無法“得到” 整體之下死去
in the language of the Romantic discourse. 在浪漫主義論述的語言中
Let me just jump out here on the corner. 讓我在這個角落下車吧
Okay, you'll. Thank you so much. [Man] Thank you very much. 好的 你們大夥 非常感謝 非常感謝
Take good care now. You too. ﹣現在保重 ﹣你也是