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the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's
Republic in eastern Ukraine has taken a
significant step forward in its
separatist stance by declaring a new
nation called malorossiya only to Russia
a successor to Ukraine we
representatives of regions of former
Ukraine offered to re-establish the
state and in place of the former Ukraine
based on historical premises to create
the country of Mother Russia in this
case renaming the country is critically
important as Ukraine as a state is
guilty of war crimes mass terror and
violence against its own people Russian
President Vladimir Putin's spokesman
says that statement was Zakharchenko
zone personal initiative and Moscow
learnt about it from the press but
Ukraine's President Petro poroshenko
says the pro-russian separatists
wouldn't have acted without the Kremlin
knowing the declaration from Donetsk may
be on paper but it's part of the ongoing
crossfire in the conflict which has seen
Russian backed separatists in Luhansk
and Donetsk tried to break away from
Ukraine the Kremlin says it's committed
to the 2015 Minsk to peace agreement
signed by Russia Ukraine Germany and
France it's meant to deliver a full
bilateral ceasefire on both sides before
a political solution is reached the
creation of volatile Russia would be a
direct violation of the deal which is
meant to reinstate full Ukrainian
sovereignty the war has now claimed more
than 10,000 lives since it began in 2014
and this latest s
between Kiev and russian-backed rebels
in Ukraine's East appears to be making
the prospect of a reunited and peaceful
nation a much more distant reality
Natalie ponen the newsmakers Jeremy now
from New York is under a de Brienne ski
he's an executive board member of the
Ukrainian Congress Committee of America
and from Moscow Leonid Safin he's a
chief editor at geopolitical and the
journal of Eurasian affairs gentlemen
thank you very much for joining us
Andre this Alexander Zakharchenko is
here nobody or is he somebody whose
words you're taking seriously both he
and his words are nothing to take
seriously he is a puppet as the
Ukrainian president pointed out he can
be replaced at an instant from Putin's
words that's how the power vertical
works the structures throughout Russia
or the territories it controls come
directly from the Kremlin and and
anything that a lower peon says such as
Zakharchenko mean nothing in the scope
of the world this is not a major
declaration but a PR stunt made to give
them some attention while Ukrainian has
been winning this war for several months
okay Leonid is Ukraine winning the war
and this is why Putin's trying to send a
message through Zakharchenko as address
easy I think we need to see this message
like multi-layer attempt to see from
historical point of view from symbolical
point of view and to enlarge frame of
current discussion about future who
Ukraine because the situation's they is
very bad and ceasefire not stopped and
the key if not follows Minsk agreement
so it's some kind of rebranding how the
process in 2014 for example there was
project of novorossiya that is similar
like malorossiya
and now we see its attempt to breed more
attention what happens there exactly in
regards people Republican in Donetsk
people Republic it's not depends of
Moscow I think it depends more on people
in the region and what
okay but Leonid you said something
interesting because you started off with
I think this message means so I'm
interested to hear your perspective do
you believe that this was actually from
the Kremlin because the Kremlin says hey
we had nothing to do with this we read
about it in the papers we don't know
what's going on nothing to do with us in
the peace process do you agree that this
was actually a message from the Kremlin
that that they're lying about having
nothing to do with it I think at this
very high kind of art to understand
political intentions and the maybe mr.
Zakharchenko to understand ideas of mr.
Putin for example and he just to speak
something that mr. Putin sings but I
cannot for example to speak about ideas
from the Putin's brain maybe mr. Zakaria
can do it I don't know nobody I mean
it's very clear I just want to ask you
if you think Moscow was sending that
message rather than just mr.
Zakharchenko on his own no no I think
Moscow not deal with this kind of
message Moscow act in more a direct way
for example at real political usage like
in means for example and like we do it
in Syria with the United States and the
visit okay in the Vizier arm okay
Andrey do you agree with that I think
that it's obvious that this comes from
Fujian this is happening at the same
time that the Russian forces are
mobilizing the largest war games that
they have since Soviet times mobilizing
militarized armored divisions of tanks
up against the Russian border in a
manner that hasn't been seen since the
Cold War this attempt in Ukraine this
little PR stunt is just another facet of
trying to scare the West in getting a
better negotiation deal by mr. Putin
Leonid is this a tactic to scare the
West
I think from American point of view
Russia is some kind of aggressor but
from Russian point of view we just would
like to defense itself and any kind of
military drills on the Russian territory
in any border for example in Kaliningrad
and Cluff it's our domestic right to do
what vehicle would like to do and United
States for example to use European
partners and just to conduct Atlantic
resolve manuals already for two years in
European countries so yes it's kind of
time of a cold war that we just try to
defense itself and defence our people
and from United States point of view we
just to continue our behavior maybe it's
not normal for Washington what from
Moscow point of view it's normal and
some kind of attacks and some kinds of
actions in Syria in Ukraine and the
already organized coupe in Ukraine from
Washington in Brussels with assistance
of Washington politicians it's not on
normal okay we have to dismiss illegal
immigrants coming under this is
laughable to call Russia a friend and
not the aggressor when it has military
forces on several countries outside of
its borders you don't have to go to two
territories in Ukraine where there's an
armored and military occupation of
Ukrainian territory you can go next door
to Georgia where there is also two
territories with a military invasion and
still occupied to this day in
contravention to any peace deal that was
signed afterwards
same thing with Moldova same thing with
Azerbaijan the list goes on and on and
on and what kind of a peaceful nation
decides to shoot down an innocent
jetliner we have three years now since
mh17 was shot down by a Russian
and still nothing has happened from that
that is not the action of a peaceful
nation
okay so Leonid that's what defensive
that's aggressive Ukrainian side not
confirming that Russian military troops
were presented in the Ukraine any time
here just to provide some kind of
rhetoric no any facts no any
confirmation that Russian troops were in
Ukrainian territory but besides some
kind of very loud words about serenity
and that Russia just organized
aggression against Ukraine for example I
would like to remind Kosovo president
ways sovereignty right of Yugoslavia for
example when the United States supported
Albanian terrorists that's a good point
yes this is the thing you're not you're
not debating anybody who brought up
Kosovo and Roy didn't bring up course of
alright so we're talking about Ukraine's
sovereignty here they feel that you're
trying to swallow up half their country
in the east and you have swallowed up
and annexed Crimea and are trying to
establish facts on the ground and
polarization so cause of argument aside
you would understand why a Ukrainian
nationalist would see even if they
aren't any Russian troops in their
country even if we grant you that that
it is clear that Moscow is arming and
funding pro-moscow separatists in the
east you'd agree with that right Leonid
international rights base it on the
president so we need to remember Kosovo
what happens there we also can to
remember kuba for example Guantanamo Bay
still occupied by American forces if you
will speak about Ukraine that from point
of view that Ukrainian nation is
friendly a nation to Russians we just
would like to protect people say in
Donetsk and Lugansk Republic so it's a
reason why Russia to provide for example
humanitarian system to say and we would
like to stop what happens there okay
yeah interesting
yeah okay let me let me bring in Andre
because Andre this is interesting I just
want to talk about Crimea for a second
as an example
all of the rest of the conflict right so
Russia and excess Crimea nobody
recognizes that annexation except for
six countries Cuba and Nicaragua
Venezuela Syria North Korea and
curiously Afghanistan but that's
something to go in a little bit later on
nobody recognizes it yet it still
continues nobody's willing to do
anything about it even though they don't
recognize it with that in mind are you
prepared psychologically are you willing
to accept that at some point these facts
on the ground will be exactly that facts
on the ground and the east of Ukraine
will be Russian right the the the West
does not accept this Ukraine does not
accept this
it's not just those all those of almost
200 countries that don't accept these
false annexation illegal annexation of
Crimea except for the that you know
small smattering you talked about it's
also every single international
institution does not accept that no
banking institution will recognize any
transactions done in Crimea you cannot
send a mail because international postal
regulations will not send something
directly to nobody's done anything about
because the international aviation thing
I'm saying I'm saying that that this is
how much it's not recognized so the fact
that you're saying that at some point we
need to recognize a de facto status
that's not how the rest of the world
exists and functions and frankly the
fact that the UN Charter has been
violated in such a gross way demands
that some action happen we understand
that the United Nations Security Council
has been stymied by the veto of Russia
to do something further but the fact
that the sanctions still remain and
continue to remain must mean something
Internet in the international community
and we also cannot forget the plight of
the indigenous peoples and the human
rights abuses that are happening in
Crimea day by day Human Rights monitors
are denied access to critical areas of
Crimea we cannot get relief for again
the indigenous peoples who are being
wiped off Crimea their language their
culture they they don't even have the
right to assemble anymore in Crimea
that's not something that the rest of
the world is ready to stomach at this
point
Leonid let me ask you do you want for
the rest of the east of Ukraine what's
happening in Crimea I think not only
east of Ukraine but the many region
would like to join with Russia it's
because not only situations is very wart
in Ukraine itself but because half of
Ukraine it's rather these Russian
populations they speak Russian language
and conflict started just because
Ukrainian nationalists started
repressions against the people who
already have Russian identity it's the
right of people to protect itself it's
ok the market in certainly nunica a
factor of Kosovo so let me let me then
bring in another historical analogy
Hitler did that with the Sudetenland he
said those people they speak German
they're not in our country but they're
German they have German identity they
speak German so I'm gonna go and swallow
it up isn't it the same no I think we
need to see every case separated for
example many nations recognize of
nations there is not people who speak
only one language for example in Poland
we came to find the different kind of
ethnic groups and Germany we can to find
different ethnic groups and in the
United States of course the Spanish
language people and the English language
people I think it's kind of small team
melting pot in the United States and
there is problem with international
institution itself because it's mostly
budget on Western parody grande main
conductors as United States okay but you
citizens now it's interesting that you
say there's a problem with the
international institutions but it's
Russia's veto on the UN Security Council
that prevents anything from happening
when people want to do something about
Crimea and the war in the Donbass let me
move this forward a little bit now and
ask you Andrey about the status quo I've
been reading some of the OSCE reports it
seems as if every day there's a
ceasefire violation and sometimes it's
there
craniums sometimes a lot of the time
it's it's the rebels in the east is it I
guess Andre may be normal for Russia to
expect the status quo to go on given
that they don't have to pay so much of a
price and what does that mean for
Ukraine then Andre well there are
several many prices being paid by Russia
and by Ukraine
you mentioned the violations you can
just talk about what happened overnight
Grodd rockets tank fire artillery being
fired on Ukrainian positions and for
Ukrainian soldiers were killed in the
last 24 hours
that follows on a soldier who was shot
by a sniper the day before the rush
Russia's violations keep on going day by
day which is why nobody can agree to a
ceasefire with Russia because we know
they're going to fire increasingly
however what Russia has learned is that
Russia's forces Russia's actual soldiers
who have been captured and they are in
Ukrainian television every day because
there are so many Ukrainian commanders
on Ukrainian territory trying to get
more and more of Ukraine but they cannot
do that they haven't been successful
since they tried their push in 2014 and
Ukraine's army within a matter of months
was able to stop them they have not been
Russia has not been able to go forward
since that time and Ukraine's army has
only gotten stronger and stronger so the
fact that Ukraine has continued to
modernize itself in Crete continue to
increase the force of its army which is
now the largest army within Europe the
fact that this modern country now has a
visa-free regime can even be
demonstrated by Zakharchenko own words
where he says that he wants to declare
his own country and yet he would like a
visa-free regime that ukraine has
negotiated with europe perhaps it is the
russians who would like to live in
ukraine where if there's a little bit
more freedom and perhaps it's russia
which denies people the right of their
own language where in the the main
library of ukrainian culture in moscow
was shut down there are no Ukrainian
schools that are able to operate within
Russia even though that's the largest of
our diaspora is with over a million
Ukrainians living in Russia we are not
allowing our own schools we're not
allowed to loan library that's where
people are being repressed because of
their ethnicity it's not a new crane
okay
Leonid that was a lot it was passionate
it was very strong surely you must
accept some of that actually I'm not I
not see problem with Ukrainians in
Russia and many lab or migrants work in
there and also a many refugees from
Ukraine going to Russia to live so
Russia to provide assist peaceful nation
like you told so problem is we can back
to the year of coop because it was
organized by the West in Russia in the
United States and Europe and you know
responsible for the school they invested
a lot of billions of dollars just
organize different kind of group who
started this operation in Kiev and other
cities and of course we need to remember
2004 when started first orange
revolution this was also idea I think
it's idea fix of this big new Brzezinski
who taught that Ukraine must be engaged
by the West it will be some kind of
future Belt of Europe and security okay
but it is fake so okay but that's what
you believe Ukrainian that's what you
believe otherwise fake news about surely
Leonid but Leonid that's what you big
you believe is the background opinions
differ about what happened it made on
what happened in terms of people's
intentions but would you accept that
someone like Andrei is not a puppet of
the West he's a Ukrainian who is proud
of his country and doesn't want to be
under the boot of Russia can Andrey as
up as a patriotic nationalistic
Ukrainian exist in your eyes I think
it's we love Ukrainian people what to do
next and Russia will not intervene if
Ukraine would like to join European
Union no problem why not
it's depends of Ukrainian people but
problem is that political elite now
controlled by West and they not follow
will of people and in Ukrainian
Constitution we can read that Ukrainian
power budget on the people so it's
violation of Ukrainian Constitution
itself also it's a main problem what
happens there in Ukraine okay Andrei
very finely next week
presenters of Ukraine Russia and the
separatists meeting in Minsk can
anything good come out of that given the
facts on the ground given that everybody
so everybody so fundamentally differs on
where to go next in this conflict are
you optimistic at all Andrey I I think
you may hit the nail on the head in
terms of why why should be we optimistic
if it's the same people coming to the
table if it's the same situation on the
ground basically I would say that
Ukraine keeps bettering its army keeps
integrating itself every day more and
more with the West Ukraine has been you
know deployed on NATO missions for
twenty years now so it's it's a much
more Western focused country it's a much
more Western focused economy it's been
bouncing back in terms of its own power
and really it's on Russia now to figure
out what its course is going to be they
have a presidential election coming next
year it's on Russia to demonstrate an
openness to international monitors to
show an openness to maybe having a free
press which is it's not allowed to have
it should be on Russia's a table now to
prove itself to want to be a member of
the international community because it's
not a Western it's not a Western
conspiracy when over 190 nations see
that Russia has been violating
territorial integrity of other countries
i island states are not part of the
Western alliance or a conspiracy this is
this is the rest of the world
acknowledging that there is one trouble
area and that is the presidency of
Vladimir Putin okay
Andrei and unit it's been good to talk
I've got a wrap thank you very much for
joining us
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