ladies and gentlemen welcome to the foreign correspondents club
my name is Kate bread sure I'm the hunk of your trip in the new york times and
i'll be your host as first vice president the club to let me introduce
today's event that really the reason you're here
our speaker today on your this one off of is somebody who has looked at china
as somebody from india so often we hear including many of our speakers
perhaps many of us foreign correspondents look at China perhaps
through western eyes
she's tried to take to give us and an Indian's perspective on China she did
her doctorate at fudan university so she's somebody who can shanghai so she's
somebody really knows
china in depth and she's also now published a book which you can buy on
your way out if you wish
finding India in China travels to the lesser-known she sometimes particularly
look at the periphery of india that's going to be her subject today those on
the periphery both in the physical sense of the in outlying areas and also on the
periphery of of chinese society with that I give you on your own
thank you I'm absolutely delighted to be here
so in 2001
I stepped out of India for the first time in my life I was on my way to put
on that Sri put on university in Shanghai
there was a brief stopover at hong kong
so technically speaking hong kong was the first foreign country that I ever
said my foot on
I was absolutely amazed and excited by what I saw in Hong Kong and how
different it was from Delhi
it was with a pang of regret a range of remorse that I felt that India was far
far behind the reason I was going to put on was to do my PhD my field work on
council province the poorest
province in china think she county had been identified as my area for field
work and of course i had to start with chinese language so i joined foot on -
way and one day allows you came to class
she wanted a few volunteers to teach the Chinese students at foot on English the
Belgian in class volunteered the German in class volunteered and I as an Indian
also volunteer to teach English she turned around looked at me and said you
don't get it do you
we want a native speaker teaching english since the last decade and half
china has been on my mind I've traveled to think she which is one of the poorest
counties and China to big cities and larger was right
I don't look at China through the eyes of a native speaker
I look at China through Indian eyes with an Indian perspective
I carry with me perhaps the history the baggage of history the baggage of War
the nineteen sixty-two war from nineteen sixty-two up under 1988 absolute and
complete diplomatic and political log jam between India and China
I carry with me the baggage of my skin color but most of all I carry this very
happy baggage of centuries of long civilizational connections between india
and china which is China's most beloved beloved classic
it's GOG Journey to the West travels to lands which lay to rest of China India
what about the great goose pagoda at Xian it houses the scriptures that the
monks want young brought back from India
what about don't want the frescoes of tuna long were said to have been
inspired by India
and what about Gigi and Lynn the famous in college 'used it was GD and lynn who
suggested that the Dragon and the Phoenix our indian ports in other words
the dragon is the flying naga for this flying Serpent and the Phoenix is an
adaptation of the governor Byrd
this brings us all to today's stock
what the periphery tells us about China
it is extremely critical to understand China's economic miracle but it's also
very important to be objective about China to help us understand it better
bury Free is very complicated defining it is extremely complex when I grew up
in the eastern city of attack
small little dusty down and eastern India attic was my Center and Delhi was
my pear free when I moved to Chung hi
shanghai became my center and then he became my parents free so i use their
free in in in a very broad manner and I beg the indulgence of the audience to to
carry me along
in in in the due course of the stock china as you know is homogeneous ninety
percent of the population is Han and then the 55 others are the minorities
there is also the geography Colbert's free Shinyoung which is on the extreme
western Barry free of China shin
as you know means new and young means Dominion or territory
the new territory of China a bit
there's a lot of debate a lot of controversy on tube it was it
unified was it liberated or was it occupied manchuria in the northeast part
of China and there's inner mongolia skirting out among olya
there is also the religious carefree as you know Shin Young has the Uighur
Muslims but China has been different
Muslims and the largest Muslim group are the famous flames
china has as the BBC estimates almost a hundred million Christians and there is
also a very small community of Jews in chi Fong in central Hannah the results
of China's social para free that the migrants more than 260 million leaving
the the villages or the rural areas for the cities and so they are hollowed out
villages and the left-behind children and of course the LGBT community which
is on the barrier free
these are some of the core issues
these are some of the court teams that have discussed in my book finding india
and china travels to the lesser-known implies travels to the peripheries of
China
I'm very happy today to have here with me Daniel whole the editor of my book it
was Daniel Daniel
so it was Daniel who helped resolve the knots of my mind and bring the book to
its logical conclusion
this is you can see is the great wall of china it was open Lattimore who told us
the great scholar the great traveller that this was history's most absolute
statement of the idea of front of the frontier it de marketed the agrarian or
the sedentary way of life from the nomadic way of life
as you can see from this map it does not quite extend beyond gr you go on or it
doesn't extend north of inch one
so the Chinese built the wall to protect what was theirs
this is a conceptual map of china this is an illustrative map when i first
traveled in China
I went to a place which is very famous for the leaning tower of China
I forget its name it's on the fringes of shanghaied leaning tower of pisa so I
went in search of the leaning tower of China
i went there and i found a lot of motorcycle taxes and I had to take one
of the motorcycle taxis and one of the taxi valorize asked me where I was from
I said can you take a guess and he he looked at me and he said
your accent is not very good you probably from angel then on one of my
first trips out of Shanghai when I was going to function in my province one of
the poorest provinces again of China
I met a lot of people on the train of federal fellow travelers who offered me
to Oregon like dried pork jerky and I said that my I was a Hindu when I did
not eat pork and one of the travelers who is observing me said indians and the
eagles are very similar but the wiggles and the Indians don't eat pork and they
use their hands to eat their food so that is how i went to Shin Jang
this is a photograph that could be any other city in China
it could be wishy it could be wrong so it could be soo choi could be well hon
this is a photograph that reminds you of iconic historian one compose observation
that cities and China most often than not look like clones of each other
this is a photograph that I took from the top of the Red Hill in Orangi and as
American demographic Stanley tube said are observed orangie is pretty much a
hand city in 1949 the population of change on was 4.3 million seventy-six
percent where he goes in 2015
forty to forty-five percent of the population of the Uighurs Shinyoung also
has the XP see the shin jung production and construction co ops it's also called
the King to 12.8 million people and hundred and seventy five regiments
so from OMG i wanted to go to Kashgar
and i was working with an organization in Orangi and I requested
if they would help me go to Kashgar and what they told me was very interesting
they told me that I was much better off going to Kashgar on my own
i also met a young man a Chinese educated a chinese-american educated
young man in Kashgar he had just graduated from Harvard
he came up to me in Kashgar and he told me that you wanted to tag along with me
this was also quite a revelation the reason why he wanted to tag along with
me was because he felt safer with me
so the demography of Kashgar is right on it space the demography of sudden
changes right on its face
ninety percent of the population of the eagles in the middle picture one you can
see these beautiful all men wearing their but damn cat
the dopa caps on a picture to this is what restaurants in gosh gar look like
very central asian feel you can see the copper some of our on the table you can
see the wooden latticed windows you can see the tablecloth which has more of a
central asian field
picture 3 this is this young lady who's standing in front of the tomb of a
piccata about coach is the patron saint of Kashgar it is also the mausoleum of
young fish Angus Young the fragrant concubine
and as I passed by this young lady shouted out and said would you like to
take a picture with me I'm the modern day
Shang free this is a picture
picture of Kashgar one of the oldest cities in Central Asia and as you know
the old city is being systematically demolished and a lot of the people are
being moved into apartments that look like this when i went to Kashgar I saw a
lot of women who still wear their broker and as of 2015
the book car has been banned the beard has been banned keeping the rosa during
ramzan is also banned in gingell every chapter of my book begins with a map and
this map indicates the intersection of a particular place in China with a
particular place in india in this case
engine with with Kashmir both Shinyoung and kashmir are trouble provinces
both are adrift with reverse of blood
both are Muslim majority provinces
both are extremely restive in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties
this is what kashmir looked like she was burning you would often see the the army
bunkers you often see houses which would get it by separatists you would see open
violence in the street today even if you're the worst critic of Kashmir you
will concede that kush meal is healing or Kashmir is on the mend
so Kashmir is beginning to heal there are a lot of tourists were coming back
to the shakarez Kashmir is very famous for the shakarez of the whole house
boats that fly on the the lake
there are a lot of tourists were coming back to the ski school or ski slopes
there are a lot of tourists are returning to the wall that forests and
cherry orchards
so they're having elections in 2014 and I was interested to understand from a
personal point of view as to why Kashmir is on the man
and why is shin jung still burning
well Kashmir has an article 370 in the Constitution which prevents Indians from
other parts of India from buying property and settling English meal
in other words there has been no demographic tinkering of the magnitude
that has happened elsewhere
secondly there is no equivalent of the XP CC 2.8 million people sent to rebuild
and reconstruct the frontier that that has not happened in in Kashmir just a
couple of years ago there was this very powerful film into the mainstream film
it was called hi there
a lot of people wanted the movie to be banned
somebody said any movie that sympathizes with terrorists needs to go to the big
butt needs to go to the bin
the director was accused of being an international he turned around and said
I'm not an international but i'm not anti human either
in other words open discussion open debate and acceptance has been very
critical for the healing process in Kashmir the Mongols
where once the nomads there were the nomads who followed water and grass they
were lovingly called the traveling ethnicity
mapei mins o our nation on horseback
what has happened to the Mongols in inner mongolia
well they're one and five is a Mongol a very slim minority twenty percent of the
population
if you go to heart which is the capital of inner mongolia picture 1
you see a lot of signboards chinese calligraphy as well as the Mongols
script
if you go to some of the shops you will be able to buy mongold slovenia's it's
quite ironic that the more
goals where once the outsiders who lived outside the great one but jinkies can
has now been appropriated as a Chinese national hero and it is Chinese cap if
you go to the grasslands you will gather a sense of the displacement social and
economic displacement of the nomads picture 1
it's the nomads done the farmer turned entertainer a lot of the grasslands and
Mongolia has been divided up
you can see picture to a lot of the grasslands has been divided up into two
zones where tourists come to partake in grassland tourism
so this order done
farmer done entertainer now place the marker chin which is the horse headed
fiddle for the tourists who come
I interviewed a harder his name was tamarin he told me that the Mongols and
the Chinese with the same people just in case i did not know he was also a nomad
down farmer done entrepreneurial he had a stack of satin clothes and he had a
couple of horses but you rented out to the tourists
he made me wear the satin outfit and there I was looking pretty much like
exhibit a the Mongols were ones that terrifying warriors who lived outside of
the great wall but hearing this heard her story
it made me realize that maybe understand that some of them are indeed today in
today's china and times of localization market and tourism are indeed less than
terrifying
this could be a very pretty girl she's wearing Indian lehnga she's very
elaborate indian jewellery
she even has a bindi on her forehead she could be a very pretty indeed
girl indian bride which is actually a way Muslim there's a picture that I took
in machining the capital of qinghai china has a lot of way Muslims more than
10 million Muslims the relationship that the hon have with the way is
non-conflict chur but the relationship that the we girls have at the Han is
conflictual so the way Muslims they look very Chinese and this speak Chinese
they were born out of the intermarriage of the Arab and apportion traders who
came to china in the seventh and eighth century a lot of the way Muslims are
like the Muslims in any other part of the world
they want to read the Quran five times a day they want to eat halal food or
change and food and they aspire to go for the high judge
this is a picture again for bride
but if you notice very carefully she's standing in the courtyard of a mosque
so are the way Muslims are not in conflict with the hunt
a lot of them now for low fork rituals a lot of them have Chinese names like one
or young or the some of them do have very way sir names such as more sigh or
he or her a lot of them have actually taken to an ancestor worship and very
interesting when you see the way Muslims in the coastal part of China a lot of
them also eat pork so in other words the way Muslims straddle the Muslim world
but the increasingly straddle behind world
sexuality is very complicated in in the early two thousands homosexuality was
considered a mental illness or mental disease but it was decriminalized one of
the foremost spokespersons has been Lee in her
this is what the New York Times which ran a story sex expert secret is out
and China's open to it who who has openly admitted that a partner is a
transgender man and she's not a lesbian
as some of you know it was Rihan who threw his weight behind the Shanghai
pride if you actually google bangla pride the chances that pride hotel
bangalore is going to come up with a three-star rating on tripadvisor
so India decriminalized homosexuality and re criminalized it again quite
different from China
most of you are aware that one of the the stories that attracted a lot of
attention was the marriage of these two young men in Chiang sure a very small
city in Iran and of course there is the remarkable story of ginseng a colonel in
the Army who bend it like beckham long before Bruce Jenner
or Caitlyn Jenner date in the nineteen nineties changing underwent a gender
reassignment surgery she learned to dance under Martha Graham
she is a very Vell known dancer and choreographer and she is very popular
one of the celebrities
so much so that even the community body wise for attention and finally migrants
in two thousand there's about a hundred twenty 1 million migrants in 2016
they're about 277 million in fact if you go to a city such as Shanghai or Beijing
or any of the SEC says you'll often find my grand sitting by the zebra crossing
with placards saying shriek on our local would work or water work
one of the films which captured the angst and anxiety of the migrants was
the last dream hole
it was a film made by lesion fun which explored the e the angst of the
left-behind children and the elderly Guardians but 60 million left-behind
children and 20 to 30 million elderly in the rural areas
so the migrants are an underclass this second class citizens and unlike any
other pair free
they're not geography CLE de limited the numbers are not very trivial and China's
preoccupation has always been one thing or stability and so the migrants are
everywhere
china now has a new organization plan and today China is fifty percent rule
more or less fifty percent urban out of that
thirty-five percent of the urban citizens have the co because after
nineteen seventy-eight the relaxation of the call
unleash the largest internal migration in history
so by 2020 they plan to reach the hook or two forty-five percent of the urban
population but this does not come cheap
this does not come for free the cost to regularize somebody with who call this
is an estimate by scholars of the National University of Singapore very
very high
there is also the problem of integrating the rural areas with the urban areas as
well as the sustainability of all the new cities that are going to learn that
are going to come up about 200 cities with a population of more than 1 million
by 2030
so what is the berry free tell us about China there about a 10 million leaguers
in jail
they're about a little more than 10 million Muslims scattered in the
northwestern part of China the Britons more than 4 million Mongols less than 10
million and who is the largest beneficiary in China it's the migrants
when you look at the way the way Muslims or if you look at the Jews
if you look at the way Muslims or if you look at the Jews there has been a lot of
trust on assimilation or organization
I'm not here to say where the china is right or wrong that is beyond my
competence but i'm here to say that the way to China integrates the way China
embraces the way China coops the way China assimilates it's a very different
way of doing with respect to India a lot of it is my way
the hard way or the highway so the focus of the tendency is on organization the
largest and most pressing bear free again
is it is not they're not the wiggles they're not the buttons not the Mongols
not the way Muslims but it's the migrants it is often said that india is
a democracy but one scholar
in India said that india is open but it's closed
china is closed but its open and especially with respect to the LGBT
community you
you can see in China that there is a lot of popular acceptance in society and so
the LGBT are accepted liberally and have found a place
thank you
as you were looking at a Kashmir you said a couple of things maybe that
helped bring peace to Kashmir one was open to discussion another was that the
demography had not been had not been changed and yet
kashmir had the additional challenge of the division between India and Pakistan
and the additional challenge of the state finance to activity by by Pakistan
why are why they need without that kind of activity is Johnson towards you think
it's entirely the the immigration or is it also the is it primarily immigration
or is it primarily the lack of open discussion the ability to to discuss and
resolve issues openly do you want me to take a bunch of with you know very well
what I'm suggesting is that it's a combination of all the reasons that i
mentioned but open discussion in a democratic
well you certainly helps and it certainly helps and healing and the fact
that that the demography was not good with has also helped in Kashmir
there is a lot of anger in Shin Jang because if you look at changing it can
actually be divided into not change on which is largely integrated and sudden
change our weather tomorrow
demography is otherwise sudden change young is still weak or majority but not
in changing is is very hot or very cynic
so there is a lot of resistance other nations John more peaceful sudden young
is burning so simply not had the most demographics change in your it's burning
well there has increasingly if you see in the last five years
you see that there is going to be a cash bar special economic zone
you also see that a lot of things are such as you know the beard at the book
stand band
you also have the systematic demolition of the old city that's in Kashmir and a
lot of the the people are being moved into new apartments
this is what was done in beating in the fifties if some of us here might have
read joining ja who observed that the city walls of paging were systematically
dismantled and they went to move to went in the making of the ante
air raid tunnels that lie underneath teaching so widening roads building a
skyscraper that has happened in other parts of China but the country in
sensitivity
especially with respect to the old city which is one of the oldest cities and
central asia i think most of you would have a point of view on that
come over here please
you have a democracy but you have a very social very anti democratic system in
places in China is a lot of social mobility
regardless of your background or peasant to become president at most the leaders
come from that background so I'd like you to comment on that because you did
leave out but i think is a very important aspect of of Indian life and
that's the caste system
I'm actually very delighted that you asked me this question and let me take
you back to the two to a body of work by a chinese american scholar failing Wong
who has very specifically explode the relation between cast our system in
India and the hook all in China and it is failing Wong who contends that China
has a caste system and that gas system is who call and the reason why he says
so is both cast and who call our age-old systems the who actually goes back to
the power J system centuries-old to both are by virtue of but both are inherited
cast is inherited and so is who call
both are forms of control and both function as an internal Passport
it was only nineteen seventy-eight that i'm shopping relaxed the hukou system
so actually there is a process by which a roo roo leuco can be can be made into
a urban cool but then again you have american geographers such as Cindy fun
who says that it actually
it is only the creamy layer in rural China which is able to access urban who
call either by buying property or by having specific skills which are needed
in the urban areas coming back to cast
there is also a process which which has been much chronicled in India
it's called the process of sanskritization this is what a
sociologist a very eminent Indian sociologist discussed whereby a lower
caste can actually take a surname of a higher caste and thereby become an upper
caste
so technically speaking they're ways that a lower caste can become a higher
caste or a rule who can become an urban hukou but in both the systems
there is a lot of bureaucracy there is a lot of bureaucracy and like i like i
have discussed in in my book today both in india and china of the bottom line is
not Foucault the bottom line is not cast but the bottom line is Qin Shi Xiong mr.
money
so if it is it is affluence that has that has negated or is is is now
considered as one of what it is affluence that bridges the gap between
the rich and the poor beat India or in China but if I actually have to
differentiate between India and China probably have to go back to economist
genres or amartya sen who have specifically focused on the economic
miracle in China but they say that the economic miracle in China was based on
the backs of what was achieved during mouse time
so nineteen forty nine to nineteen seventy-six you have the basic needs
strategy or you have the support leg
strategy so the focus was an immunization the focus was in literacy
on sanitation and access to clean water in in there
there were no land reforms Noel Gallagher in distribution of land except
in two states and literacy immunization which made the basis of the iconic do
the banister book
China's changing population has not happened in India
so in India the economic reforms as much as we all want economic reforms but
without literacy without immunization access to clean water sanitation the
this is it still a very long road for India we have time for one more question
not back here please
thank you i'm generally no he's turning into it and thank you for that very
interesting presentation this to sort of global demographic questions that I
wonder if you could comment on in terms of their effects on the peripheral
populations that you mention one being the aging of the chinese population and
the second being the gender imbalance
thank you yes there is one thing that India and China have in common which is
a son preference and and that is not something which which are which India or
China are very proud of and as for the aging population by 2050
china is going to have a huge a massive number of aging labor labor costs are
already very high and
indeed still has a young population India still has a lot of population in
the working group but if you have a population without education without
skills without opportunities because in in china it was a great and reforms
industrial reforms
it was public relief works which created invest which created opportunities for
employment but in India you have a huge working-age population and the DD india
is still an economy which is trying to consume its way to prosperity
it's the services sector but manufacturing manufacturing is still
very easy and infrastructure and connectivity are our roadblocks in
India's development so that has not happened in Indian case
thank you very much
ok
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