hello I'm Dale Dougherty and I'm here
with an eel dash hello it was a very
thoughtful writer and thinker about a
lot of things but I ran into you last
year you were city cut him under the
Rockets hollow sides yeah and I was
delighted to see you there and then you
wrote a really interesting piece called
make a revolution after Maker Faire and
more recently written a piece I'm with
the makers and readers inventor so I
just wanted to pick your brain I've been
so inspired by the maker movement and I
think one of the most important things
to me as i see it explicitly as a
movement there are many different camps
there's the folks building a 3d printer
at home there's the people taking apart
their car because they want to
understand our work so the people
building websites and building apps and
all those different things but the the
union of all those sets is kind of a
shared ethos right there is there's this
idea that people have if i can create
something i can take what I have and
make it mine whether that's customizing
it to my taste or making that device do
things the manufacturer didn't intend or
whatever it was and across the board
that's a really pioneering spirit it's
you know I said it's because I'm an
American but it feels very American I
think anybody who's proud of their
country so that's what our spirit is
that's how we explore it's something
that actually resonated with me I got it
I was really lucky I got a chance to go
to see the last space shuttle launch
that's like those are makers right these
are people that make stuff and I don't
like to politicize things I like
governance not politics but there is a
political aspect to take and control in
your hands of the tools of creation of
the the objects that define our culture
and define our lives of the technology
that defines our lives and saying this
is mine I'm going to choose what I do
with it I'm not going to let an
institution whether that's government
corporation whatever tell me I can't do
this with it and so much of political
discourse is about no that person's
wrong today
and let's stop them from doing the thing
that they think is right for the country
so little is about well what are we
going to make what are we going to be
who were going to be when what our
country crows out and that is one of the
things that I think is drawing me over
and over and over to the maker movement
is this is it's a political because it
appeals to everybody you can be anywhere
in the political spectrum there's
something that speaks to your desire to
be in a collective community of people
that are collaborating together and your
self expression in an individuality as
shown through what you've done and
contributed and that is so exciting that
combination of no matter where you fit
politically there's something for you to
resonate and say this fits in with my
beliefs and it's purely positive it's
really inclusive you see people of all
ages of the maker faire you some people
of every background every ability there
and it's so welcoming I'm you know I'm I
haven't really actually soldered
anything together in 20 years like it's
still in my head but you know last time
was probably in high school but if you
say my person that doesn't sure yeah
yeah that's part of my identity
certainly you know I'm a lousy coder
these days because I'm out of practice
but I'm i submit does that makes apps on
the computer yeah I'm on that kind of
person and so it's your try but you
belong to and I can be years out of
practice go into a maker faire and say
I've put something together a while but
somebody's got a good or golino kit and
I want to check out what it does and
they'll show me you know and and it'll
invert it's not the apprentice and the
student because it's a ten-year-old
showing me you know what it is but that
kind of think that feels to me like in a
in a less optimistic world in a less
ideal world somebody will be taking that
and saying that's our political movement
and everybody that's been involved in
the maker move so far has been very
judicious and thoughtful and not
exploiting it that way but you put it up
against any modern political movement
anybody anywhere on this political
spectrum and we look at you know the Tea
Party or anybody else it's the same
number of people are participating in a
maker faire and going out and doing
something that is optimistic it's going
to provide jobs that's going to help
with security that's going to give
people you
a great future that brings their
families and community together I think
that's the most exciting thing one
that's great there's also one of the
things is fasting when people connect to
this they seem to not only connect
themselves but like their family there's
a history there that connects it brings
things forward capacity I notice you've
been at it in one of your pieces yeah
nobody nobody is a maker on their own
you know you can tinker you can figure
something out you can problem solve on
your own but it's intrinsically a
community activity and it is about that
it's what drove most of our families
here right it's a desire to make
something make some kind of opportunity
my dad is a highway engineering just
retired again actually but he's not the
kind of guy that stays retired and you
know he built highways all across the
country and work on the foundation a
disney world and all these things and
that that gets your blood he's also of
course got bought me my first computer
and led me on my path and everybody I
talked to you that's ever been to a
maker faire has the same story you know
it's a while mom was a computer
programmer and she showed me how to get
my first hominoid computer or you know
dad night belt model rockets and
whatever it is you know frankly you know
kid down the street and I were blowing
stuff up when we were kids but that was
still it you know we had to make the
thing that we blew up and and that part
of being part of a community is
intrinsic to it and it's the sort of
thing that the conventional wisdom says
doesn't happen people cross political
boundaries class boundaries all these
other lines that that we say aught well
people look on the other side street
they don't think others that are
different from them could ever have a
meaningful conversation they do it
without thinking in this context yeah
I've gotten somewhat in the context of
children but you know that there is
often it's our culture a certain apathy
mmm and I think this DIY stuff it really
is at the other end of this not Newton
that's what's so exciting I think a lot
of us have garnered this idea from
technology
once we could kind of get control over
that and do stuff with it we think
sometimes we get certain amount of
hubris that we could do almost anything
Yeah right yeah well the apathy apathy
happens in the environments where people
think they have no agency they have no
control and if i'm watching media that
somebody else created on a device I'm
not allowed to hack in an environment
where I can't choose what how to change
the channel or anything of course I'm
going to be apathetic if I made that box
and I'm watching some homemade media
that somebody else made themselves and
I've got complete control over how I can
remix it and do things with it I'm
instantly going to be you know leaning
forward instead of leaning back and that
it just pervades the way you think of
culture overall it's how you see society
it it happens in food you know like my
wife said that River stand the food
world has taught me a lot about it and I
think it's simple terms you would never
eat every meal of the sort of factory
food from a fast food place sometimes
you got to have a meal that's made by
people you love and even with people you
love and the same has to be true for our
gadgets same has to be true for the
tools that we use the same has to be
true for the media that we make
something has to be made with love by
people we love shared with people with
love it's just that's human nature
that's what we need and when we don't
get that we get a pathetic that's the
same as you know if I you know when I
had a dog if you leave her alone at home
for the whole day I'm actually be sad
it's like when you don't have any
controller interaction or for what
you're doing sad and we have always
historically had that you know the first
radios people had one radio speaking of
broadcasts been built and they built
from kid and I remember building a
crystal radio from a radio shack kit
when I was nine years old and I didn't
like anything on AM radio but I would
listen to it because I made and if
somebody had told me someday I'd be able
to broadcast and get a thousand people
on the internet to go and listen to it
to read it I wouldn't have believed I
would just be science fiction and now
it's taken from her
and you know generation the kids growing
up taking Africa branded what are they
going to do next let's say I assume I
can reach a million people now what can
I do with that power and that's I think
that's what informs so much of the maker
spirit it's also the the people that
didn't that aren't native to that
culture that didn't grow up in that
community that don't love making or that
see it sort of as a threat or a danger
only one emphasize the risks you know
and that and you should have somebody
saying you don't you'll poke your eye
out like there's a certain amount of him
let's be safe but we haven't even begun
to tap in to what's possible and
risk-taking almost and you know it's
like there's a whole course in it yeah
coral Ryan and I think that's very few
places that are even engaged in that
discussion that you more of what is the
appropriate level of risk and how do you
sort of overcome certain fear of risks
and a way to manage risk so we took one
of the things I think about is how you
normalize research there are things
people will say oh kids about power
tools but you let him swim in a pool
across the street right and you're not
there because there's a lifeguard there
well and and and it's also we as people
were bad at judging risks and
understanding what are the real dangers
and there's a million examples but the
sort of if I've got a hamburger in the
meats for 100 cows instead of one cow my
risk has gone out Mac you know massively
but I don't have any way of actually
perceiving that difference when you're
sitting on the grill and so there are
there the invisible risks and this
always happens with with making is it
simply is revealing that the the risk
that was probably always there and
that's what makes people uncomfortable
is there really confronting gosh you
mean everything you know all our
electronics can be hacked like
everything you know there's never
there's never something that's actually
keeping you from harming yourself but
you feel like there's a buffer between
you actually having to confront it and
taking that away is really useful I
always go back to the meeting examples
cuz i know that world pretty well but
the first time you actually you write a
book you write a story you write a blog
post whatever
is you start to realize gosh everything
I've ever read my life was made that way
too and the person writing it was his
uninformed as I am about whatever i'm
writing about or or whatever and then i
wrote the article as a way of learning
as a way of learning about exactly it's
your credit and our two great way to
learn and the same is true for every
tool I've ever used and every object
I've ever handle every computer I've
ever you know worked on it's been well
gosh somebody as either knowledgeable or
ignorance I am built this too and and
had to incur those risks how do you take
this risk there's a great Isaac MakerBot
on Saturday they were teaching a
workshop for teachers and that two
leaders of the workshop made the comment
that the design software they were
teaching had changed just last week yeah
you know and I thought that's really the
world we live in that even the teachers
you know can't rely on something that is
is really you know I mean they have to
look at things as constantly changing
rather than stable and and vetted and
everything else just like it's always in
and kind of learning to live in that
environment is is really a different
thing and this really challenges what
authority is you know I grew up in a
pretty traditional asian american
household which is the teacher is God
right you have absolute reference and I
was a normal American kid which is to
say I got in trouble and got kicked out
of class sometimes and flung some tests
and it was you know just if sacrilegious
it was an unforgivable offense in what I
realized from that perspective was
there's the assumption that the teacher
is authoritative about their subject in
the classes where I did the worst
computer class where I this wasn't
bragging because I think that teacher
would admitted himself back in nineteen
eighty six but I knew more about the
computers than he did and so of course I
wasn't going to say this person is an
authority when I'm like I don't know
much but I know more than you so why
don't we learn together and that's not a
model that is that fits with traditional
forward
and it requires that authority be
confident and not insecure enough to say
I'll learn with you student and that
which ends up being a great experience
people are happier more engaged they
learn more they learn faster all this
other you know things go up but that
model of what it is to be a maker is
radical and people have to be ready for
that change I think kids are native to
it and I'm fixated on this because I
became a parent beginning of this year
and you know you see your kid gives you
this clarity about oh man i'm gonna
teaching about stuff that i forgot i
never knew or that i never even that
didn't exist when I was you know his age
one of those types of things that stuff
is if you can embrace it and say I'm
comfortable with only having my position
authority but not having the authority
of I'm putting you in your place and not
pretending to be the expert about
something or not yeah there's a great
book i just came across this written the
70s in part of a wave of constructivist
education but Piaget who writes in about
childhood development it's only book on
education scholar is the english flying
of translation says to learn is to
invent and what he means is that you
that learning process is putting things
together even mentally right just of
that that you you can't learn but from
doing that process as i think a lot of
our models today are almost this sort of
in even the media companies is like how
much do we shovel how much can you
absorb right what's the retention from
you know that rather than then sort of
really building things up and breaking
them down and building them up again
you know you see a pattern and you think
they can do straight right and then it
turns out not to be true right it looks
like a common-sense truth and then you
find out well that's not actually how it
worked right there's the quote I always
forget I said it but it's that it's not
the Eureka moment it's them that's
strange all right that's the moment you
want is that the unexpected thing I
think it's absolutely right is you you
have to be inventing and we we breathe
it out of ourselves you know when we're
come from children to adulthood when we
go to early in our career it's that you
know people you can talk two million
people at work in offices and they say
well my boss Tony I'm not here for my
ideas I'm here to do this job yeah one
of the things I'm proud of the maker
movement is it we have taken the word
invention and really broaden it I most
people won't say they're an inventor
that's that's some kind of person that
they're not yeah it's just a crazy hair
and they their daughter Nora right you
know and I really think that the luck of
this is that people can say they make
things and it's a real simple way I can
make food I can make an inventor is on
it on a pedestal and doesn't other thing
I had a maker I make everybody makes and
that's why when you talk about
politically this participatory sense is
really key that I I do this and
therefore well it solves every class of
problem if you say education is broken
in America because the kids aren't
performing as well as kids in other
countries there's a path through
empowering kids to make that improves
that if you say jobs are broken because
so many millions of people are out of
work and the industries that they could
go to don't exist anymore the only
solution is making something new and
they get across the board its jobs it's
education its defense it's every single
area health care it you can you can only
make your way out of it because we've
tried everything else right but there is
this sort of backdrop in the media
times that we'd say Oh lovekin
government due to produce more jobs
internet end and and we're pretty
unhappy generally with what government
has done in the past to answer these
problems and the marketing sucks right
yes akalina but I wish there were ways
of getting that went into that
expression turned around what can we do
what can we do there's also one of the
interesting things about the government
part of it is we we don't consider the
work that comes from government to be
making you know one of my closest
friends is a cancer researcher at the
National Institutes of Health he works
on cancer and children I I can't even
imagine how difficult is job is and you
know he does research he's a codex
clinical trials to test drugs he'd see
all these different parts of when some
of the cancers affect kids are cured
it's going to be because of his work
right he's Gill of contributed and
that's profound making and it's the kind
of thing that does not and for good
reason have a market-driven private
industry business model right but it's
an important contribution and it will be
the platform on which you know someday
when you go down the corner drugstore
and you get a cure cancer pill you know
that's going to be built because of that
and but it's a long slow make and it
could only be appreciated if you've ever
done yourself something that took a long
time to build it was gradual it took a
decade of practice before you became an
overnight success that's a really a good
planner the log slow baked good because
we think of things that we respect from
the past like cathedrals and you know
300 years or more the Washington
Monument it's at there for 50 years as a
stump right you know it was the base and
then I'll ran out of money and then
there was a civil war and then you know
with the parent different part the
quarry and the stones not going to match
of all these donations but there's this
little you know stump of a monument for
50 years and during that time period
that's an entire lifespan and then some
so so there are people who were you know
who lived and died in the interim when
washington monument was just this weird
looking flat top thing in the middle of
the capital city but when we think about
transforming our world are remaking it
and it's these sort of
multi-generational solutions that we
really have to think about now it's just
something that can be done in a in a
single budget ear or something that can
be done in a single term this is
everything we look at is inspiring is
something that has that long slow make
that has that period where it looks like
it's dumped is clicked it stopped it
looks like it's been finished or or
would never will be finished you know
here in New York City I'm a huge transit
geek and we've been working steadily on
having a second Avenue subway for about
70 years and we're going to get two or
three stops done in the next couple
years but on the flip side my son will
always have known there's a second
Avenue subway you won't remember time
without it so to me it's it was a punch
line when I moved in this city 15 years
ago okay well yeah we'll get that when
we get a second Avenue subway and for
him it will just be always there and I
think it's so so easy to just ignore
everything we look at this is simple we
look at as representing what we can
achieve even talking about having been
at the last space shuttle launch the
building that they kept the space
shuttles and was built for the Apollo
prime program so you're going back 50
years you know that these buildings were
built and repurposed and modified by
people that's lacking work of this these
are the raw materials that work they
have excess capacity because the shuttle
so much smaller than a Saturn rocket and
that's classic making right that is just
that we're going to reuse what we have
and put it to use and it will last as 50
years instead of 10 it'll work us
through three projects and all these
different missions and it would sort of
ties back to the importance of it and
what I'm most satisfied about is seeing
making connect two kids you know because
if we we can't do this in this
generation we've really got you know to
get them to do things and
to do things and pass that on as well
well and we haven't proven we're any
good at it right I mean one of the
things adults forget really often is we
don't have any credibility if we say
well kids you should listen to us
because we know how to fix the jobs
problem we know how to fix the
environmental problems we don't know we
don't if we demonstrated we don't know
how like what our credibility should be
nothing and like that the starting point
should be all we can give you this is
some lightly used materials that
hopefully you can repurpose into coming
up with a real solution right well again
thank you for for for talking I just
think you have this really great insight
into boy sometimes called the political
or social context of making and
sometimes that scares me to talk on that
level well I I know yet but I on the
other hand on one of the words that I'm
really happy and it comes out not from
me saying it but other people say you
know this making is kind of subversive
yeah they'll say that and and I'd rather
them draw that conclusion then just
repeat something that we say but it
makes I think it is it's subversive in a
good way in the sense that America is a
radical country in a radical nation at
its core right there that is a place
joined by an idea at its highest ideals
and fundamental to that is creation and
making I thank you because you have let
it without ego and with humility that
lets people take what they want from the
movement and and literally make it their
own and that's the kind of thing that
that lets people actually be
constructive with one another and cross
the boundaries where if you go
preconceived notions of why I have to
affiliate with these other kinds of
people or achieve this goal they would
never think yeah one of the kind of
relates to this one of the things that's
I see even having done last year's fair
through this year's is the people that
met last year and used each other as
resources right and some homeschooling
mothers and my son
really you know not happy in school and
I mean but he needs connection into a
community like this goes and talks to
the hackerspace this is it would any of
you come and meet with us regularly and
last Saturday he was a he was an intern
at MakerBot that's that same can we do
with it in one year yeah and so it
changes your life I mean small choices
of you know my dad said they should play
with a spreadsheet app when I was eight
years old changed the course of my life
and you know it was wasn't it he wasn't
making a profound incision on his party
he just revealed to me that I could make
something yeah it's great Thank You Neil
thank you