[MUSIC PLAYING]
All right, now the chat is working.
Wow--
Look at this mix.
--all over, from the Americas to Europe, Asia.
Well, good morning.
I love it.
Good morning.
Good evening.
Good night, if you're dialing in from Asia.
That's right.
It's late for me in Amsterdam.
But it's even later for you in Asia.
Welcome to our third McKinsey Unpacked episode.
Woo-hoo!
For those of you--
We mostly excited that we've been allowed
to do this more than once.
I know.
We didn't know if they'd let us do it again.
Oh, there's somebody who says 2:00 AM for them.
Wow, that's dedication.
Oh, my gosh.
We will try and have the right amount of energy,
enough to keep you awake, but not too much that you
can't go to sleep.
Exactly, exactly.
And it will actually be interesting.
This is our third session if we have some repeat listeners.
Yeah.
But for those of you who have joined us for the first time,
I'm Marie.
And I'm Blair.
And together, we have the immense pleasure
to co-lead McKinsey's talent attraction teams globally.
So, we've both been at McKinsey for 20 years.
And we are excited to lead our teams globally
with talent attraction.
And with this monthly McKinsey Unpacked session,
we really want to give you a bit of a glimpse behind the scenes
at McKinsey in a hopefully, like Blair already said,
interesting and energizing and fun format.
And we're inviting to these sessions on a regular basis
different co-stars and guests from around the firm
to be here with us.
So, for those of you who haven't joined us before,
Unpacked is the name of this session.
And it's, of course, has a pun to our profession--
Of course.
--consulting.
Of course.
As you are probably aware of, that
is one myth which is actually true, that consultants do travel
for other projects as we are working side
by side and shoulder to shoulder with our clients.
There are a lot of myths that we want to bust in these episodes.
And so this monthly session is a chance for us
to unpack what working at McKinsey is really like.
And if you are interested, if you haven't joined before
and you want to learn more about what we covered
in the previous sessions, we will share the link
to the recordings from the other sessions
after the end of this one.
So, because everything at McKinsey comes in threes--
this is one of the big secrets you learn about this place,
that we have three sections to each of these sessions.
The first is what we call Map for the Road.
So this is, what's on our mind?
What's the direction of travel we're heading in this session?
Second one is the meat of it, which is really our unpacked,
where we really, as Marie said, get
underneath a single topic or a set of topics
and give you all a chance to get to know the real McKinsey behind
maybe what you read or what you think you about us.
And then the third is Snack for the Road.
Everybody needs snacks.
We always joke all the time that that's
one of our first and most important things.
You go to any McKinsey office.
You want to assess what kind of snacks they have.
It's a big deal.
But Snack for the Road is a tip or some sort
of useful advice or counsel we can
give to you so you can take it away as you continue
your travels around the world.
So, Marie, maybe we'll dive right in.
Because I know we're excited to get to our guest speaker today.
Roadmap, what's on your mind today?
What's going on?
Yeah, well, and actually, by the way, Blair,
I was just sneaking in the chat.
We do have some repeat listeners, so hooray.
We do?
Yay!
Some people are returning.
That's encouraging.
Fantastic.
That's good.
But please give us your feedback as well,
given this is still a fairly new format.
And we want to make this as meaningful
as possible, especially, also, as we pick themes
for our unpacked session.
We really rely on your feedback.
So, along with the recordings from the previous sessions,
you will also get a feedback survey at the end of this.
So, please help us shape this format
in a way that's most helpful to you.
Absolutely.
So where are we heading today?
I actually just returned from PTO yesterday,
from a wonderful family vacation in the US.
And in many parts of the world, It's.
Getting closer to back to school after summer or winter holidays,
depending on which hemisphere you are in.
And I know, Blair, your kids are starting school next week,
I think.
Mine are still--
Yes!
[LAUGHING] Just kidding.
I'm going to miss him so much.
I really am.
Well, mine, we still have a little bit longer here
in Amsterdam.
Mine are only returning beginning of September.
But at McKinsey, also, it feels a bit like back to school.
Because many of our large markets,
this is kind of a bit where the campus hiring season kicks off
for our entry-level and campus-based roles.
And we are really excited to hire for next year
or start the hiring for our next year
for the campus-based and entry-level roles,
but also, are ready for some of our experience profiles.
And we often get the question on whether we are hiring this year
or not.
And of course, the answer is yes, we are definitely hiring.
So, we are very grateful for all of you being here,
showing an interest how to be successful in our application
process.
You can just ask our recruiting teams.
They are very busy preparing for this.
So yes, please send in your application
if you're interested in joining McKinsey still after--
Yeah, it's amazing.
--listening to this.
It's amazing to me how often we get that question.
Are you hiring?
And, if you've joined a couple of our sessions in the past,
we always love to bust some myths.
We love taking some misconceptions out there
about consulting or about McKinsey specifically
and setting the record straight.
And I think that is one that we both want
to make sure we set the record straight.
Yes, we are hiring.
Yes, we are excited.
That is why we do sessions like this,
to get a chance to get to know and give you a chance
to get to us as a firm.
So, I'll echo what Marie said.
Send in your applications.
And hopefully, after this session,
it'll make you more excited--
[? Exactly. ?]
--to do that, not less.
--you're still interested, then, that we're not scaring everybody
away.
[? Then you ?] give us feedback.
That's right, Exactly.
That's right.
Exactly.
Well, so let's move to our most exciting part of this session
today, so our Unpacked part and the real reason why
I know all of you are here.
So, today, we really wanted to dive
into the application process and share with you tips and tricks
how to be most successful in the journey
towards joining McKinsey, hopefully, at some point.
And as I said earlier, please send us your feedback.
Because this basically, comes from a large amount of questions
that we received around this topic.
We already share a lot of information
on our Careers website.
We're trying to be as transparent as possible
to make it as easy and a stressful process, which we know
is stressful for anybody searching for a job,
as little stressful as possible.
So, having an interactive session
where we give you our personal advice, and also
from our wonderful guest star today.
So let's dive right into that.
(HUMMING) Da-da.
How can I be successful in the McKinsey hiring process?
And let's spotlight our--
drum roll-- our super guest, Dr. Ashley Schloss.
There she is, our colleague and friend, who's based in New York
and who's one of our senior leaders of our assessment team.
In addition to thinking about our interview tools
for her day job, Ashley has mentored and coached
I don't how many, hundreds, thousands
of candidates probably by now.
Millions and millions of people.
[LAUGHS]
I know, to be successful in our process,
including ones like herself.
Because you come from a bit of a less traditional background.
Actually.
I mean, is there really a traditional background
at McKinsey?
I'm not really sure.
[INAUDIBLE]
But you have a degree in chemistry
and a PhD in molecular biophysics.
Ashley, welcome.
Welcome, Ashley!
Thank you so much.
I'm probably--
I wish we did have a jingle or something for it.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
We do need a drum roll or something, yeah.
I'll work on it so the next time I join a webinar,
I have my own special jingle.
Totally.
A walk-up song.
[INAUDIBLE] to bring some backup singers, that'd be a good idea.
Thanks for having me.
I just wanted to say that I'm so excited to be here.
You're probably going to hear me say excited a million times
on this, because, one, I'm on this call with two
of my favorite people from McKinsey.
And two--
We paid her to say that, by the way.
So good job, Ashley.
You earned you earned your money on that one.
(LAUGHING) Just buttering me up a little bit.
But I'm also on [INAUDIBLE] our audience.
That's right.
Definitely an exciting opportunity
to have the chance to unpack some of the mysteries
behind our interview process with all of you today.
Oh, well, we're thrilled you're here.
And I know right now people are being really nice.
But they're like, OK, could the two of you please stop talking
and let Ashley talk?
Because that is really what we want to hear about.
So again, as Marie and Ashley both said,
there is so much anxiety and frankly,
misconceptions about our entire interview process.
So, today, is really about trying to, in a real talk way,
give you our tips for how to think about this process
and frankly, not just how to succeed in it,
but how to stay sane, which is really important,
not just when you're interviewing for McKinsey role,
but frankly, any job.
So, let's dive in, Ashley.
And maybe we just start at the beginning,
and we can literally walk through each stage
of the application interview decision process.
Let's start at the very beginning, which is,
let's say I am a talented individual, like the hundreds
of people on the call today, and I
have lots of choices about where I could apply and aim my talents
in a professional setting.
How should I think about the decision to apply to McKinsey?
What are the kinds of things I should think about?
This is a great question.
When I first heard about McKinsey,
I was also confused about making that decision.
I do not come from a family that is entrenched in the business
world.
And so when I heard about McKinsey,
I was confused as to what consulting was,
and what happened at firm, and what it might mean.
I'd say the first stop is our website.
We have videos.
We have testimonials.
We have articles that will tell you a lot about who we are
and what we expect.
I think that the website, too, will help you quickly realize
whether or not we are for you.
McKinsey is not for everyone.
We're looking for critical thinkers.
We're looking for people who are empathetic,
who love working hard, who love new things, who
want to push themselves, who want
to push the people around them, who are
purpose and principle driven.
And that might not be exciting for you.
But if it is exciting for you, I definitely
encourage you to check out the types of jobs that we have here.
And if you click on the Find jobs button,
also remember that we don't just have client serving jobs.
So if there are other roles that seem interesting to you--
I'm so glad you mentioned that.
We are a big, wide firm--
[? And you fit. ?]
--and I think people forget that.
Yep, right, exactly.
We're a huge global firm.
So be picky and pick a role that feels right
for you and for your experience.
And, while you're being picky, we're a huge global firm.
We have lots of offices all around the world.
You should also be a little bit picky about your location
as well.
You want to make sure that you are going to be in a place
that you are comfortable working hard, so,
optimized for family, for friends, for a city that you're
comfortable with.
Maybe even think about going home, wherever home is for you.
Sometimes people try to game the system
and say that they're looking for a location that
might be easier to get into.
That never actually works.
And it's also about the connection to a location.
Being based in Europe, we do have local language requirements
in all of our offices.
And are a global firm, of course.
Our global language is English.
But we work, as I said earlier, shoulder
to shoulder with our clients.
And very often, they prefer to do projects in local language
to really maximize, also, the impact on their organization.
And it's just better for your development, A,
to be in an environment that you are familiar with, like you
mentioned, Ashley, that you have support around you
and to maximize your chances of learning and development
by being able to have access to all different types of projects.
So, if you are based in the Netherlands,
and your dream is to work in Australia,
don't apply to the Australian office.
Apply to the Dutch office.
Be successful here and then transfer to Australia,
or do a mobility or do a project in Australia
at a later point in time.
That's great advice.
And again, I think sometimes, people
confuse that with the fact that we are such a global firm,
which, oh, great, that means I should work anywhere.
Not necessarily.
I think we all would agree that we each had--
I will call it strong roots, by starting in locations where
we had connections, we really wanted
to be for the first few years of our career, at least.
Because that really gives you your sea legs on the role.
And then Marie's exactly right.
Once you've got your confidence and you've built your skill set,
then that's one of the best things about this firm,
is it is a huge global firm.
And the places that you can go and grow
are pretty limitless from there.
So I think that's really good advice.
So let's assume I am ready to apply.
I know where I want to go--
[? Oh, good. You decided ?] to apply, great.
I figured out where I will fit in.
The website has you excited.
We love to hear it.
[INAUDIBLE]
OK, good.
So the next big question, Dr. Schloss, is,
how do I build a resume that will stand out
and that will make me score an interview?
OK, you're going to love this one, Blair,
because it's a list of three.
Oh, way to go.
And you said earlier on, you--
Extra points.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Way to go.
So, to build a resume that's going to stand out
want to have three things.
One, you need to understand what we are looking for.
Two, you want to understand how you can tell your story,
based on what we're looking for.
And then three, there are some technical tips,
just to make sure that your resume is
palatable and easy to digest.
If we start off with the, What are we looking for?
we want to see impact.
We want to see substance.
And so tell us what you did.
Tell us what that resulted in.
We want to see your problem-solving skills
and your other abilities.
So, give us examples of when you've solved problems.
Give us examples of when you've used quantitative analysis
or storyboarded or maybe presented in a large forum.
A presentation like this, maybe I'd put on my resume.
We want to also see how you work with teams and how you lead.
And so share moments where you've been an effective leader
and you've been an effective collaborator.
We also want to see initiative and drive.
So, highlight those moments where
you've gone above and beyond expectations in a variety
of different situations.
The second point, how can you tell your story?
We're all coming from very different places.
So, as Marie said, I came from a PhD in molecular biophysics.
I was a scientist up until the day that I started at McKinsey.
You still are, Ashley, huh?
That's right [INAUDIBLE].
I still am in different ways.
[LAUGHTER]
But I'm no longer transferring liquids between tubes.
But I still had a story to tell.
You want to start by leaving humility at the door.
This is not the time to be humble.
You want to not downplay any of your skills and achievements.
Tell us all about them.
But do not lie.
Do not stretch the truth.
That's a values issue, and this is
likely to come up at some point.
And you just don't want to start off on a bad foot.
You want to tell us--
By the way, just to put a point on that one,
I suspect that is something that we are unfortunately
going to see more and more risk of in the world of AI,
where AI is now suddenly such a helpful thing to help
you proofread a resume or help you think of a better
way to word something.
If you're struggling to describe an experience
or something that you led or did, that can be really helpful.
But I think we are, unfortunately,
going to see a temptation for people
to embellish beyond the truth, using AI.
So I think that's a smart warning for all of us
as we're all trying to figure out
how to navigate both the real upsides and potential
downsides of using it.
I mean, I'm an AI fanatic.
I use it to help me draft emails all the time.
But AI has the tendency to hallucinate and to make things
up.
And so it's really up to us to make sure
that the truth is in whatever we're submitting,
even if we're using the help of AI.
I love that.
I think where I landed, what next
is you want to show us how to tell
your story against the things that we talked about.
There's the piece about being truthful.
There's also the piece about telling us how you lead.
You want to make sure that you have examples of leadership,
not just times that you've been a part of a team,
but times where you were the one that was leading
that team to results.
And then one thing I really want to highlight
is not to worry too much about big names.
We are reading every bullet on your resume
to help us get context.
We're not just looking for big name organizations.
We're not looking at whether or not
you've gotten the opportunity to work for a big name organization
so far.
But instead, we want to see what you've
accomplished with the opportunities you've had so far.
So, we recognize--
I love that, Ashley.
--that distinctive can come from anywhere.
And we're making sure that we're paying close attention,
so that we're able to pull that from your resume.
So, even if you had a side job like working
in a restaurant or a bar during your university
because maybe you had to finance your studies,
or you wanted to learn all about customer experience,
that's also really interesting.
So, really put everything that could
be meaningful on the resume.
And like you said, Ashley, don't hold back and don't leave--
how did you say it?
Leave the humbleness--
Humility at the table.
Leave humility at the door.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
--leave at the door.
Leave humility at the door.
And, Marie, I love that part, too.
If you put that you've had maybe a side
job during your university studies,
or you had the opportunity to lead
in your extracurricular activities,
it really shows that you have the ability
to balance many things at once.
And that's exactly what we're asking from any colleague
that we have here at McKinsey, the ability
to really think about multiple workstreams at once.
And so it's definitely something that you
want to highlight on your resume if you have that experience.
I agree.
And I also feel like, just to underscore that point, also,
on--
Ashley, I love your point on we're not looking for big names.
I think there is this mythology that somehow, I
have to have this prestigious internship,
or I have to come from a certain school
and that that's the only way I will stand out.
from a CV perspective.
It's absolutely not true.
We are looking for elements of distinctiveness
regardless of where that comes from.
So, things like academic achievement, leadership
positions, as Ashley said, the grit and resilience to do things
like excel academically and work at the same time,
those are the kinds of elements we're looking for,
not the pedigree or the names of either the institutions
or places you've worked.
So, I'm really glad that you said that.
Because we like to bust myths around here, and I that's
a good one.
We need a little myth buster buzzer.
We do.
--on the next [INAUDIBLE].
Maybe we can come up with a jingle for that.
Don't give her ideas, Ashley.
[LAUGHTER]
I love coming up with jingles.
Next thing, she's going to come with a hat or something.
Oh, yeah, costume, we could come up with a myth buster costume.
I like that.
Amazing.
So, you mentioned three buckets.
I think you mentioned three.
Oh, yes, the third one, so you guys
just had some really good things to [INAUDIBLE].
So the third one is just technical tips.
And that one also comes in a list of three Cs.
So you want to be clear, concise, and consistent.
So, concise, You.
Want to use bullets, one to three bullets for each role
or experience that you have.
You want to be clear, so no jargon.
You want to use strong action verbs.
It should be easy to read without very
industry-specific language.
And then you want to be consistent.
You want the formatting, the spacing, the font size, the way
that your resume looks to be consistent throughout.
And I saw a few questions around length.
Two pages is fine.
I think I would keep it to that.
More than two is really not needed, even
for people with significant experience.
And if you're just at the beginning of your career,
I would say probably the majority has one page.
When I applied, I had one page.
I also had one page.
I had one page as well.
But again, we also get people who are advanced degrees.
Exactly.
So I think one or two pages--
--very experienced.
Agreed.
More than that, I would try to be concise to it.
That's one of the C's, which I love.
I love that.
OK, so let's assume that I've listened
to your fabulous advice, and McKinsey
has picked me for an interview, which is probably [INAUDIBLE].
Congratulations, Blair.
Well, thank you.
[INAUDIBLE]
20 years ago, maybe they would have made a different decision.
But we'll see.
But today, I get an interview invite, which is interesting.
And I for many of the roles that we hire for, shortly after you
receive an interview to invite, you get a link to something
called Solve, which I saw a couple questions in the chat.
But I think there's still a lot of people saying,
what the heck is that, and what is it used for,
and how the heck do I think about it?
So, Ashley, tell us about Solve.
So, Solve is a game-based problem-solving assessment.
We have an internal team called the game-based innovations lab.
It is a bunch of scientists who have developed this game
to show us how you think and how you problem solve,
regardless of your background.
So, the most exciting thing about Solve--
there goes "exciting" again.
I told you.
I promised I would use that word a lot.
[INAUDIBLE]
--that you don't need any sort of experience.
You don't need to know frameworks.
You don't need to business.
You don't need to be a gamer.
You don't need gaming experience to play Solve.
If you are comfortable with a mouse and a keyboard,
you're ready to play.
And from what I've heard, it's a really fun experience.
I've gotten the opportunity to play myself.
And it is--
I've played it.
--pretty cool.
It is super cool.
And Solve is one part of our full picture on you.
We're looking at all of the aspects
of your application [INAUDIBLE] we invite you to interview.
And Solve is one opportunity for you
to, regardless of your background,
really show off your problem-solving skills.
So, hoping that if and when you get the opportunity to play,
that you truly enjoy yourself.
It is really fun.
It's definitely a lot more fun than the pen and paper test
that we used to have until a few years ago.
Yes.
Well, we all can remember that.
But again, I think it is really important.
Ashley, I'm glad you mentioned it,
that it is one data point that we use to evaluate people.
So, we'll talk more about-- we'll ask Ashley for her tips
on the actual interview process.
But I think people really over-anchor on any one element.
Do I have the perfect CV, the perfect Solve score?
There's not a perfect anything.
And again, that is one of the reasons
we have a pretty extensive application process and a pretty
extensive interview process, is we really
care about getting to know the whole you
and maximizing those data points that we have about you so,
and giving you as many chances as possible
to shine and demonstrate your skills and your intrinsics
and your capabilities without any business knowledge.
So, I think that's a really--
And preparation requirement.
It's very difficult to prepare for Solve.
So it's more about the mindset and how you are in a space
where you can concentrate and where you have
whatever it takes to just show up with your best.
So, all right, hooray, your journey continues
or my journey continues.
Now, I'm not sure about yours, Blair.
But let's assume--
[LAUGHING]
--that I have been invited to interviews.
Hooray.
So--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Yeah, congratulations.
Very exciting.
Thank you.
What are your best tips for helping me nail the interview?
So do I need to prepare?
How do I need to prepare?
How much do I need to prepare?
What's your advice?
So, first, our process is very transparent.
So what we're assessing is written right on the website.
You will find that for our consulting roles,
there are two types of interviews.
There's a personal experience interview,
which might feel a little bit more familiar to most people.
And then there's a problem-solving interview,
which we sometimes call our case interview.
I'll start with the how you should prepare piece.
You want to invest time to practice both
because they are equally important
in your overall assessment.
We're looking at you as a whole, both the ways that you're
able to show us personal impact and the way
that you approach problem solving.
I'd say that when possible, practice
with a friend or a colleague, someone who's in the process,
or if you don't anyone in the process, a friend who's
willing to give you the time It's really helpful to practice
out loud.
I had one friend actually record themselves on Zoom
and watch the tape back, which is not--
Oh, that is brave.
--my personal-- [LAUGHS]
I cannot handle watching myself on tape.
I know.
You look at it, and you're like, ooh.
I've not watched any of the recordings of our earlier
Unpacked [INAUDIBLE].
And I will not be watching this either.
But it's a good idea.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
If you're brave, it's still a good idea.
But I mean, to your point, I think--
and actually, if you listen to our last episode
that we had with a partner from Boston,
John Chartier, in the end, his tip
was also to find people to practice with.
I think that is super helpful.
Yeah.
I mean, when you get to the interview,
you want to make sure that you're feeling confident in how
you're delivering things.
And a lot of times you can build that confidence by having
someone else physically there, either through Zoom
or in person, to help you get over those nerves
and get to the place where you're feeling really good.
And on the other hand, we all have to be honest about the fact
that prep fatigue is a real thing.
So, sometimes, we'll practice ourselves
into doubt and frustration.
And so making sure that you're striking
the right balance of having the right muscle memory,
but not finding yourself doubting your capabilities
and skills and answers, you should [INAUDIBLE].
And becoming too robotic, I've definitely
experienced that in the past.
I always say, it's like a muscle you all have.
You just need to wake it up and strengthen it a bit.
But the problem I sometimes see, when you overpractice,
you'd stop thinking yourself.
You're trying to think about, oh, I
saw this framework somewhere in my practice.
And then, rather than really thinking and problem
solving and sparring with your interviewer
and having an engaged conversation,
you're trying to recite frameworks
that you've memorized.
So, practice like you would practice for anything important,
an exam or an important presentation, something
that you care about you will prepare for.
But do it to an extent that you feel good and comfortable.
But you don't need to rehearse and know the perfect answer.
Because that's not how consulting is also like.
And I always say, try to have fun.
Because that's what we do in the day to day with our clients.
Exactly.
If you are interested in a consulting role, if you don't
like, especially, the case part, then maybe consulting
is not for you.
Because you will experience that type of sparring and problem
solving in the team room [INAUDIBLE].
And ambiguity every day.
Yes.
I love that.
And I think that's right.
So, I think the next piece of advice that you're hearing
is prepare so that you feel confident and familiar
with the format.
But don't overprepare so that you
start to doubt your own ideas, your own thinking.
Because that's all we want to see.
All we want to see is-- it's the same thing
on both sides of the interview, how you approach
the analytic side of a problem and then how you approach
the people side of the problem.
And by the way, sorry to interject,
because I saw a few questions around.
Oh, I've applied already.
I didn't make it, or I made it to final round.
Can I reapply?
You can absolutely reapply.
I don't the number, but there are a not insignificant amount
of people who've tried to join McKinsey,
didn't make it on the first round,
but then tried again a few years later [INAUDIBLE].
A different point in their career.
Yeah, so we always say, you need to--
The first time I applied, I actually
made it to the final round and didn't get an offer.
[INAUDIBLE]
I didn't know that.
[INAUDIBLE]
OK, let's pivot here a second.
Part of the reason that I'm so excited about talking
to people about preparing--
I love that.
How did you keep your confidence up, Ashley?
How did you not take-- because, again, we're
among friends here, 837 of us.
We're all talented people.
And it doesn't feel good when you
get told no or not right now.
And so, how did you keep your spirits up?
How did you decide, hey, listen, I'm going
to keep going for this again?
Well, I had a partner who was part of my final round
interviews call me and give me feedback
as to which parts of my interview went well
and which parts I probably should
consider getting stronger at.
I've always prided myself on being really good at math.
And we'll get to this part as well.
But there's something about the live interview
that if you haven't actually thought
through how to calm your nerves and how to listen
and truly set yourself up to be consistent in delivering all
of your thoughts, can be a bit unnerving when
you're in the live interview.
So, what I spent the next year doing is just
practicing just that, like, what are the ways
that I structure my approach to answering things?
It's pause before answering, so that I'm
giving my full picture of what I'm thinking instead of trying
to answer what I am guessing the question is
going to be coming up.
I love that.
But yeah, so, I mean, if you are invited to the interview
process, and you don't make it, you will get feedback.
And then we do need you to wait at least a year.
Because we want to see enough time
that has passed to be able to show development or progress
in the area that was lacking.
So, depending on the feedback, you
might want to do another internship
or like what you said, as you focus on certain things.
But then after 12 months, you can absolutely reapply.
Yep.
And--
Maybe even six months.
I love that.
Ashley, that's a great-- that is such--
because I think that's another myth we hear,
is you have one shot, and if you don't make it, that's it.
You're, quote, "not good enough for McKinsey,"
which is absolutely not true, right?
And I love that you have--
Yeah, maybe you're jut not ready.
And I don't think--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
--sometimes you're not ready.
I think that's a perfect way to say it.
Ashley, it sounds like you did a lot of self-coaching.
And then I know we want to get to the actual mechanics
of the interview because people have
a lot of questions around that.
But someone asked the question, like,
do you need to really invest in all these?
There are lots and lots of profit making--
by the way, not McKinsey sponsored.
We actually wish there weren't this entire industry,
but all these pay for coaching materials that are out there.
Ashley, did you feel like you needed that?
Or were you able to leverage website, your own time?
How did you think about that?
Times have fully changed.
We have a new candidate prep website that [INAUDIBLE].
Oh, yeah, that's right.
Tell everybody about that because it's pretty cool.
Once you're invited to interview,
you get access to this interview prep
site that has example personal experience
stories in a podcast form.
You get access to case interview materials
written by the same people who write
the case interviews for the actual interviews as well.
There are articles and all sorts of resources
that you can tap into.
And you also have the opportunity
to sign up for a live coaching session with a McKinsey
colleague, walking you through some tips
for personal experience interviews
and some tips for the case interview,
as well as doing a case interview
within a group session.
And so we are providing those resources directly
from the firm.
And I think that it's probably one
of the best opportunities now.
You can get--
I agree.
--all of that information directly from the firm.
And that was a very conscious decision
we made, an investment we made, to say,
we want to level the playing field in terms of access
to good coaching materials.
Because not everybody has the finances
to spend the gajillion dollars.
Or you may not attend a school or have attended a school
where there was, for example, a consulting club,
where there are other people helping you do that.
So, we're really trying to make sure
that is something everybody has access to, so agreed.
Well, again, I don't want to run out of time before we
get to the real heart of it.
Marie mentioned we've got two parts of our interview.
We have learning about your personal impact
and your own leadership, and then learning
about your analytic capabilities and how
you think about a business problem through the case.
Let's actually start with the case, Ashley,
because I think that's the thing that everybody freaks out about.
I had a huge anxiety about it.
What is the McKinsey case really?
And how do you do well on it?
Can we please try and bust the myth
that is this horrible, hard, awful thing?
I also had a lot of anxiety about the case.
I think when I found out about case interviews,
it was a month before I submitted my application.
And I was working in a lab.
And from what I've heard, everyone,
even with business backgrounds, have a little bit
of anxiety about the case interview
because it feels brand new.
It's different from most interview processes.
My best explanation of what the case interview
is, it's a discussion.
It's a discussion about a McKinsey problem
that reflects the types of things
that our consultants work with our clients on.
You're going to get this opportunity
to hear about the type of work that we
do, the types of problems that we're solving.
And in that opportunity, we get to hear
you talk through a problem that you've never heard of before.
And we get to see how you deal with ambiguity, how
you walk through your thoughts in a logical path,
how you can be creative when it's
time to think about solutions.
We get to see your sense for the implications of decisions.
And we also get to see your comfort with numbers.
Because there's definitely a little bit of math
included in our case interviews as well.
But it's math for the--
I mean, this, I think, is an important thing
people don't always get.
It's not math for the sake of doing math.
Can you do math?
It's really, how do you understand how data, facts,
and in particular, numerical facts help get you to an answer,
either challenge what you're thinking
or reinforce the line of reasoning you're going down?
So all of the problems around the math,
I think, actually happen a lot in our actual team room.
You're having a discussion with a client and your team.
You're trying to figure something out.
And someone poses the question, well,
what if that changed by 10%?
What if we were wrong on the number of customers?
We underestimated.
What if, in fact, it were twice that number.
And everyone thinks, gosh, well, that
would change the assumption.
And you do that mental math to just be able to,
again, do the problem solving.
So I think that's another myth that people
think you're just going to be forced to sit there and do
ninth grade algebra.
No.
It's all about knowing what the numbers mean,
being able to interpret--
Exactly.
--what you've calculated and putting the numbers
into a broader context.
Exactly.
Exactly that.
And it's something that we all do anytime we go to the grocery
store or we decide to buy a--
Good point.
--pair of shoes on sale.
You ask yourself--
Absolutely.
--well, what's a lot to me?
What's a little bit to me?
How much does this need to be discounted
for me to say that it makes sense to make that decision?
That's the type of logical reasoning
that you're going to be doing in the math problems
that we have within the case interview.
I love that, Ashley.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
It doesn't have to be a business setting.
I love that.
Exactly.
So we maybe move, just with an eye to the clock,
because I think we could talk about this for hours.
Do we maybe want to move to the second part of our interview
process?
which is, actually, mainly, mostly the first part
of the interviews.
You don't typically in the interview start with the case,
but you start with something where
you get an opportunity to tell your story.
Right.
And telling your story is probably
the best way of framing this.
Because we actually ask you to tell us
a story during the personal experience interview.
This, again, is written clearly on our website.
So there are four different questions we ask [INAUDIBLE]
personal experience.
This is all on our website, by the way.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
You don't have to take notes right now.
The question that we ask in the interview is on our website.
We're not trying to trick you at all.
Exactly.
We really want you to feel as prepared as possible
to come in and tell a story that helps us understand you
and your impact to the fullest.
And so just a quick tip, you want
to practice this just as much as you practice [INAUDIBLE].
I am so glad you said that, Ashley.
I feel like because there's this anxiety around the case.
Anybody who ever wants to talk to me about how to prepare,
all they want to do is talk about the case.
And I'll often say, have you thought
about the personal impact and leadership?
And they're like, no, no, that's fine.
I've had a bunch of good experiences in teams.
I'm like, no, no.
Timeout, timeout.
So tell us, what does that look like, Ashley,
to be just as prepared on the experience side?
I'd say it looks like having one to two stories for each
of the four skill categories.
And sometimes, it's hard to figure out, what's a good story?
What's something that really speaks to my impact?
I would talk to friends, talk to teammates, talk to your parents,
talk to family members, about the times
that they thought that you made a difference.
Ah, that's a great idea.
[INAUDIBLE] bubble up that you're like, wow,
I forgot about that.
But I truly was the one that made a change there.
Ashley, I hadn't really thought about that.
And that is a great way to prepare,
is let people tell you how they see your--
what are some of the top three things, Ashley,
that you really do in groups that I think are effective?
That's a wonderful outside-in way to think about that.
That's cool.
I love that.
Do you find that people, when you talk about having one to two
stories per area, would you agree that it's less about
having a "start to finish, I've memorized a story"
and more of "hey, I've thought about--
here are the three or four things
that I'm proud of that I think I actually
do pretty well when it comes to being
courageous and leading others.
And here's some evidence against that.
Maybe explain a little bit of that.
Because I find sometimes that people hear "story."
And they think that they need to go memorize
a script about themselves.
I think sometimes, people hear a story, and they say,
I need to come up with a two- to three-minute monologue.
And I'm going to hit these five points,
and I have to get through the end, when it's truly more
about us getting to you know.
And so you're going to have an interviewer that's probably
going to interrupt and ask you very specific questions
about what you did, what you said,
what happened in a certain situation.
And so when we say one to two examples per skill area,
it's an example that you remember
pretty well that you can answer those types of questions about.
And be prepared that your monologue will get interrupted
because the interviewer is trying to get to you better.
Boy, that's such a good point.
[INAUDIBLE] jar you.
It's just to make sure that we are probing as deeply as we can
about how you are in those particular situations.
Ashley, that's such a good point.
We were chatting.
We're back in the back to school,
getting close to back to school.
So, many of us are doing interviews again,
and one of the things we were all laughing at together,
or laughing about, is how nervous we are as interviewers.
So that might come as a complete surprise to you.
We are nervous interviewing you.
Because it is our job to help bring out
the full set of capabilities and really help you shine.
And that is not an easy job.
You can't be lazy.
You have to ask probing questions.
If you see someone's confidence, you need to jump in and say,
hey, you've got this.
You're doing great.
I heard something interesting.
Tell me more about that.
So it really is, I think, that's something
that people don't understand, is we're really nervous, too.
We're really nervous about giving you a great experience.
So, I love that you mentioned that.
We're really serious about you--
We're really serious about you.
You have to be at least one year tenure at the firm
before you're able to train to be an interviewer.
There's a rigorous training.
There's lots of practice before someone
does their first interview and a lot of conversations
about how it went in order to make decisions.
And so allow your interviewer to lead
because they are well trained, and they also very much
care about making sure that they're
giving you every opportunity to [INAUDIBLE].
I think that's an important one, as well, Ashley,
there's listen to your interviewer.
Listen and watch for cues and make
it a connected conversation versus I
want to get out of this as fast as possible.
And you're trying to get through your story
as quickly as possible without listening or pausing
or stopping to see if your interviewer wants
to react or ask followup or probing questions.
So just have a connected conversation and discussion.
Because also, frankly, it's not just about us getting to you.
It's also about you getting to us--
Absolutely.
--and seeing whether you could see yourself working
with people like your interviewer,
or in an environment with people like your interviewer.
Absolutely, absolutely, that's the case.
I know we're getting at time.
And we could talk-- as I said, this could be seven sessions.
But I'm tempted in the spirit of our mythbuster, Ashley,
maybe you'd be up for a little bit of a lightning
round, a true/false, where we can
bust a couple of those final myths and leave people ready.
Or do need, like, a flag or something, no.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Exactly, exactly.
We definitely need a theme song.
First one, Ashley, true or false. .
You need to have a business background to be
successful in our process.
That's a false.
That's false.
So Solve gives you a chance to show us
your problem-solving skills without having any sort
of business background.
The cases don't rely on business knowledge.
It's all based on your ability to structure your approach
and talk through what you're thinking.
We want to get to you, and we recognize
that people are coming from all sorts of different backgrounds,
and our incoming colleagues are all sorts
of representative or representative
across [INAUDIBLE].
I'm loving it, Lightning round, lightning round.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
--and personal stories, so the personal experience interview
count as much as the case in our hiring decision?
I saw that question in the chat earlier.
Are they weighted.
Absolutely, true, which is why we're asking--
True!
--you to prepare just as much for both of them.
Which, again, goes to the point that it
doesn't matter if you have the best
analytical answer in the world.
If you can't get other people to listen to you
and debate you about that answer and trust you and push back
on you, it doesn't matter what answer you have.
So, I think that is a big myth that I love, that we busted.
All right.
Ashley, true or false--
and this is what I've been hearing a lot lately,
and I've seen it in the chat a bunch today.
You need a referral to get an interview at McKinsey,
True or false?
That's false.
So, everyone [INAUDIBLE] has a shot at McKinsey.
I didn't have a referral, and many
of the people that have come to McKinsey did not have referrals.
Agreed.
And people often know folks in McKinsey.
If you do know people, what a great, honest way to ask them.
What is it really like to work there?
What do you love about your job?
What do you not love about your job?
So use those relationships, if you have them, to help you.
It does not factor in or help us at all in selecting and finding
wonderful you
Yes.
All right, looking at the clock, we
are out of time, a minute over.
But we just want to make sure we get
to our last and final segment and we don't leave this travel
without a snack for the road.
Snacks.
Exactly.
We don't want anybody to get hangry.
So, Ashley, you've given us already
so much good advice today on how to be successful in our process.
What is your number one tip for staying sane,
not just in our process, but for any high performance job
interview?
Oh, I love this.
This is really good.
Schedule just as much time to find your comfort zone as you're
scheduling to prepare.
So if that's taking walks or exercising
or talking to people you care about or going to see a show,
make sure that you're taking time for yourself
across the entire process, just to rejuvenate.
I think that's great.
I always said, when I have coached candidates,
it's three legs for the preparation.
It's the problem solving part.
It's the personal part.
And it's also, then, the you part.
How can you be most confident?
And how can you control your nerves if you know sometimes,
your nerves might--
I don't how you say, get the best of you
or run away with you.
I'm not sure how you say that in English.
But how can you make sure you can
shine in the best possible way during the interview?
And that's very personal.
For some, it's like you said, a walk, a conversation
with a friend, a power pose.
Power pose.
[INAUDIBLE]
I used to always hum a song to myself
before anything important.
"Somewhere Over the Rainbow" was always one.
Oh, its that?
Oh, interesting.
My power song.
Yes, I like the power song.
[INAUDIBLE]
And also just the simple self-talk.
I know that sounds silly, but your self-talk
track that I'm really talented, and maybe McKinsey
will be lucky enough that I'll get to work with them someday,
and maybe it won't be the right fit for either of us.
And that's OK too.
Because you're going to do something wonderful.
So, that self-talk, I think, is really important.
Thank you.
Thank you for staying with us [INAUDIBLE].
Thank you, Ashley.
This was Ashley!
Thank you--
Such good advice.
--everyone for joining us.
Thanks, everybody, for listening.
Yes, oh my goodness.
And, guys, again, please keep the feedback coming.
The only reason we're doing this is for you.
So help us make these sessions as useful as possible.
Bring the feedback.
Let us know what you like, what you don't like,
what you want more of, less of, et cetera.
And we hope you'll join us for the next one on September 11.
So stay tuned--
And that's open, so you can already register.
Oh, great, terrific.
Thanks, guys.
Thank you.
Thanks again, Ashley.
Bye.
Bye, friend.
Bye.