剧作家的生活是艰苦的。 The life of a playwright is tough.
就像有些人认为的那样，这并不容易。 It's not easy, as some people seem to think.
你努力写剧本，却没人演。 You work hard writing plays, and nobody puts them on.
你为了谋生而从事其他行业——我成为了一名演员——但人们不会雇用你。 You take up other lines of work to try to make a living - I became an actor - and people don't hire you.
所以你每天都在做你的本职工作。 So you just spend your days doing the errands of your trade.
今天我必须在早上7点起床。去打几个重要的电话。 Today I'd had to be up by 7 in the morning... to make some important phone calls.
然后我去文具店买信封。然后去复印店。 Then I'd gone to the stationery store to buy envelopes. Then to the Xerox shop.
有很多事情要做。 There were dozens of things to do.
5点前，我终于赶到了邮局。寄了几本我的剧本在不断检查我的应答服务的同时…… By 5:00 I'd finally made it to the post office... and mailed off several copies of my plays... meanwhile checking constantly with my answering service...
看看我的经纪人有没有打电话来谈表演。 to see if my agent had called with any acting work.
早上，信箱里塞满了账单。 In the morning, the mailbox had just been stuffed with bills.
我该怎么做?我该怎么付钱给他们? What was I supposed to do? How was I supposed to pay them?
毕竟，我已经尽力了。 After all, I was already doing my best.
我一辈子都住在这个城市。 I've lived in this city all my life.
我在上东区长大我10岁的时候很富有，是个贵族……坐着出租车到处转，周围都是舒适的……我满脑子都是艺术和音乐 I grew up on the Upper East Side... and when I was 10 years old I was rich, I was an aristocrat... riding around in taxis, surrounded by comfort... and all I thought about was art and music.
现在我36岁了，满脑子都是钱。 Now I'm 36, and all I think about is money.
现在是七点……我最想做的就是回家，让我的女朋友黛比…给我做一顿美味的晚餐。 It was now 7:00... and I would have liked nothing better than to go home and have my girlfriend Debby... cook me a nice, delicious dinner.
但过去几年我们的财务状况…迫使黛比每周工作三个晚上当服务员。 But for the last several years our financial circumstances... have forced Debby to work three nights a week as a waitress.
毕竟，总得有人赚点钱。 After all, somebody had to bring in a little money.
所以我只能靠自己。 So I was on my own.
但最糟糕的是，我被一系列奇怪的情况困住了……同意和一个我已经逃避多年的男人共进晚餐 But the worst thing of all was that I'd been trapped by an odd series of circumstances... into agreeing to have dinner with a man I'd been avoiding literally for years.
他的名字是André格雷戈里。 His name was André Gregory.
他曾一度是我非常亲密的朋友。也是我在剧院里最重要的同事。 At one time he'd been a very close friend of mine... as well as my most valued colleague in the theater.
事实上，他是第一个发现我的人……把我的一出戏搬上专业舞台。 In fact, he was the man who had first discovered me... and put one of my plays on the professional stage.
当我认识André时，他正处于戏剧导演职业生涯的巅峰。 When I'd known André, he'd been at the height of his career as a theater director.
他和他的公司所做的惊人的工作，曼哈顿计划…震惊了全世界的观众。 The amazing work he did with his company, the Manhattan Project... had just stunned audiences throughout the world.
但是后来André发生了一些事情。 But then something had happened to André.
他退出了剧院。他消失了。 He dropped out of the theater. He sort of disappeared.
有几个月，他的家人似乎只知道他在旅行。在一些奇怪的地方，比如西藏…这很奇怪，因为他爱他的妻子和孩子。 For months at a time, his family seemed only to know that he was traveling... in some odd place like Tibet... which was really weird because he loved his wife and children.
他过去根本不喜欢离开家。 He never used to like to leave home at all.
否则你会听说有人在派对上见过他，他一直在告诉别人……他跟树说话之类的。 Or else you'd hear that someone had met him at a party and he'd been telling people... that he talked with trees or something like that.
显然，André发生了可怕的事情。 Obviously, something terrible had happened to André.
一想到要见他，我就非常紧张。 The whole idea of meeting him made me very nervous.
我是说，我真的没准备好做那种事。 I mean, I really wasn't up for that sort of thing.
我自己也有问题。我的意思是，我不能帮助André。 I had problems of my own. I mean, I couldn't help André.
我应该成为一名医生吗? Was I supposed to be a doctor, or what?
合资企业的 JV'
- - - - - -你好。- - - - - -你好。 - Hello. - Hello.
-给你。——谢谢。 - Here you go. - Thank you.
-是的，先生-啊，先生，我叫华莱士·肖恩 - Yes, sir. - Ah, sir, my name is Wallace Shawn.
我在André Gregory的桌子上。 I'm expected at the table of André Gregory.
那张桌子等一下，先生。 That table will be a moment, sir.
如果你愿意，你可以在酒吧里喝一杯。 If you like, you may have a drink at the bar.
-晚上好，先生-请给我一杯苏打水 - Good evening, sir. - Uh, could I have a club soda, please?
对不起，先生，我们只供应源亭。 I'm sorry, sir. We only serve Source de Pavilion.
哦，那很好，谢谢。 Oh, that'd be fine, thank you.
当我给André打电话时，他建议我们在这个特别的餐厅见面……我很惊讶，因为André的品味过去是非常苦行的…… When I'd called André, and he'd suggested that we meet in this particular restaurant... I'd been rather surprised, because André's taste used to be very ascetic...
尽管人们一直都知道他有些钱。 even though people have always known that he had some money somewhere.
我是说，不然他怎么可能飞到亚洲去……还能养家糊口吗? I mean, how the hell else could he have been flying off to Asia and so on... and still have been supporting his family?
我去见André的原因是我的一个熟人，乔治·格拉斯菲尔德……打电话给我，坚持要我去见他。 The reason I was meeting André was that an acquaintance of mine, George Grassfield... had called me and just insisted that I had to see him.
显然，乔治前一天晚上一直在城里一个奇怪的地方遛狗……他突然发现André…倚着一幢摇摇欲坠的老房子哭泣。 Apparently, George had been walking his dog in an odd section of town the night before... and he'd suddenly come upon André... leaning against a crumbling old building and sobbing.
André向乔治解释说他刚才一直在看……英格玛·伯格曼的电影《秋季奏鸣曲》……大约25个街区外……他突然嚎啕大哭起来…… André had explained to George that he'd just been watching... the Ingmar Bergman movie Autumn Sonata... about 25 blocks away... and he'd been seized by a fit of ungovernable crying...
当英格丽·褒曼扮演的角色说…“我可以一直生活在我的艺术中，但绝不能生活在我的生活中。” when the character played by Ingrid Bergman had said... “I could always live in my art, but never in my life. ”
沃利! Wally!
——哇。——我的神。 - Wow. - My God.
我记得，当我第一次在André公司工作的时候……我无法接受演员们相互问候时拥抱的方式。 I remember, when I first started working with André's company... I couldn't get over the way the actors would hug when they greeted each other.
“哇。现在我真的在剧院里了，”我想。 “Wow. Now I'm really in the theater,” I thought.
你看起来棒极了。 Well, you look terrific.
嗯，我感觉很糟糕。 Well, I feel terrible.
晚上好，先生。很高兴再次见到您。 Good evening, sir. Nice to see you again.
谢谢你！晚上好。如果可以的话，我想喝杯汽水。 Thank you. Good evening. Ah, I think I'll have a spritzer, if I could.
-好的，先生-谢谢 - Yes, sir. - Thank you.
我感到非常紧张。 I was feeling incredibly nervous.
我不确定我能坚持和他吃完一整顿饭。 I wasn't sure I could stick through an entire meal with him.
太好了。 Great.
我们讨论了这个和那个。 So we talked about this and that.
他跟我说了一些关于杰西·格罗托斯基的事伟大的波兰戏剧导演…他是我的朋友，几乎可以说是André网站的专家。 He told me a few things about Jerzy Grotowski... the great Polish theater director... who was a friend and almost like a kind of a guru of André's.
他“0”也退出了剧院。 He '0' also dropped out of the theater.
格罗托斯基本身就是一个很不寻常的角色。 Grotowski was a pretty unusual character himself.
他曾经很胖，后来体重减了很多……变得很瘦，还留了胡子。 At one time, he'd been quite fat, then he'd lost an incredible amount of weight... and become very thin and grown a beard.
-您的桌子准备好了，如果您想坐下的话。——哦。 - Your table is ready, if you feel like sitting down. - Oh.
——哦。——是的。谢谢你！ - Oh. - Yes. Thank you.
我开始意识到，要想让这个晚上好过点，唯一的办法就是……我想问André几个问题。 I was beginning to realize that the only way to make this evening bearable... would be to ask André a few questions.
问问题总是能让我放松。 Asking questions always relaxes me.
事实上，我有时觉得我的秘密职业…我是个私家侦探，侦探 In fact, I sometimes think that my secret profession... is that I'm a private investigator, a detective.
我总是喜欢了解别人。 I always enjoy finding out about people.
即使他们非常痛苦，我也总是觉得非常……有趣。 Even if they're in absolute agony, I always find it very... interesting.
-顺便问一下，他还瘦吗?——什么? - By the way, is he still thin? - What?
葛罗。他还瘦吗? Grotowski. Is he still thin?
哦。绝对的。 Oh. Absolutely.
哦,服务员吗?我觉得我们不用这个了。 Oh, waiter? Uh, I think we can do without this.
-好的，先生-谢谢 - Yes, sir. - Thank you.
这个怎么样? What about this one?
七虾游泳。 Seven swimming shrimp.
准备好点餐了吗?——啊,是的。 - Ready for your order? - Ah, yes.
格鲁斯卡，你是怎么做的? Uh, the Galuska - How - How do you prepare that?
André似乎非常了解菜单。 André seemed to know an awful lot about the menu.
-葡萄干饺子，白杏仁。- /一个字也不懂。 - Dumpling with raisins, blanched almonds. - / didn't understand a word of it.
-我觉得很好。——嗯。 - Very good, I think. - Hmm.
不，我想我要Cailles aux Raisin，鹌鹑。 No, I-I think I'll have the Cailles aux Raisin, the quail.
——非常好。——哦,鹌鹑!我也要这个。 - Very good. - Oh, quails! I'll have that as well.
——两个。——太棒了。——太棒了! - Two. - Great. - Great!
然后我想，首先是泊松庄园。 And then I think, to begin with, the Terrine de Poissons.
——是的。-那是什么? - Yes. - What is that?
这是一种pâté——光，用鱼做的。 Uh, it's a sort of pâté - light, made of fish.
-里面有骨头吗?——没有骨头。 - Does it have bones in it? - No bones.
完全安全的。 Perfectly safe.
额，额，Bramborová Polévka是什么? Well, urn - What is the, urn, Bramborová Polévka?
这是土豆汤。它很美味。 It's a potato soup. It's quite delicious.
哦，那太好了。我要这个。 Oh, well, that's great. I'll have that.
-非常感谢。-非常感谢。 - Thank you very kindly. - Thank you very much.
好。 Well.
我们上次见面是什么时候? When was the last time that we saw each other?
所以我们聊了一会儿我的写作和表演……还有我的女朋友黛比 So we talked for a while about my writing and my acting... and about my girlfriend, Debby.
我们谈到了他的妻子奇基塔(Chiquita)和他的两个孩子尼古拉斯(Nicolas)和玛丽娜(Marina)。 And we talked about his wife, Chiquita, and his two children, Nicolas and Marina.
我留在了纽约。 And I'd stayed back in New York.
最后，我终于有机会问他过去几年都在做些什么。 Finally, I got around to asking him what he'd been up to in the last few years.
哦,上帝。我太想听了。 Oh, God. I'm just dying to hear it.
——真的吗?——真的。 - Really? - Really.
一开始，他似乎不太愿意这么做……所以我就一直问，最后他开始回答了。 At first, he seemed a little reluctant to go into it... so I just kept asking, and finally he started to answer.
然后召开辅助戏剧工作会议。 Conference on paratheatrical work then.
这大概是五年前的事了格罗托斯基和我在第五大道散步，我们在聊天。 And, uh, this must have been about five years ago... and, uh, Grotowski and I were walking along Fifth Avenue and we were talking.
你知道，那年夏天他邀请我去波兰教书。 You see, he'd invited me to come to teach that summer in Poland.
你知道的，给演员和导演开个研讨会什么的。 You know, to teach a workshop to actors and directors and whatever.
我告诉他我不想来，因为，真的，我没有什么可以教的了。 And I had told him that I didn't want to come, because, really, I had nothing left to teach.
我无话可说了。我什么都不知道。 I had nothing left to say. I didn't know anything.
我什么也教不了。 I couldn't teach anything.
锻炼对我来说已经毫无意义了。 Exercises meant nothing to me anymore.
创作戏剧中的场景似乎很荒谬。 Working on scenes from plays seemed ridiculous.
我，我不知道该怎么办。我是说，我就是做不到。 I - I didn't know what to do. I mean, I just couldn't do it.
所以他说，“你为什么不告诉我你想要什么如果你为我做了一个研讨会。 So he said, “Why don't you tell me anything you'd like to have if you did a workshop for me.
不管多么离谱。也许我可以把它给你。” No matter how outrageous. And maybe I can give it to you.”
于是我说:“好吧，如果你能给我…40个既不会说英语也不会说法语的犹太女人——“她们都不是在剧院里待了很长时间想离开的女人…… So I said, “Well, if you could give me... “40 Jewish women who speak neither English nor French - “either women who've been in the theater for a long time and want to leave it...
“但不知道为什么……或者喜欢戏剧的年轻女性，但从来没有看过自己喜欢的戏剧。 “but don't know why... “or young women who love the theater, but have never seen a theater they could love.
“如果这些女人会吹小号或竖琴……如果我能在森林里工作，我会来的。” “And if these women could play the trumpet or the harp... and if I could work in a forest, I'd come.”
笑1一周或两周后，他从波兰给我打电话。 [ Laughing 1 A week later, or two weeks later, he called me from Poland.
他说，“嗯，40个犹太女人，这有点难找。” And he said, “Well, 40 Jewish women - that's a little hard to find.”
但他说，“我有40个女人。它们都非常符合定义。” But he said, “I do have 40 women. They all pretty much fit the definition.”
他说，“我也有一些非常有趣的男人……但你不需要和他们一起工作。 And he said, “I also have some very interesting men... “but you don't have to work with them.
“这些人都有一个共同点，他们都在质疑戏剧。 “These are all people who have in common the fact that they're questioning the theater.
“他们并不都演奏小号或竖琴，但他们都演奏一种乐器。 “They don't all play the trumpet or the harp, but they all play a musical instrument.
而且他们都不会说英语。” And none of them speak English.”
他给我找了一片森林，沃利。 And he'd found me a forest, Wally.
这片森林里唯一的居民是一些野猪和一只隐士。 And the only inhabitants of this forest were some wild boar and a hermit.
这是一个我无法拒绝的提议。 So that was an offer I couldn't refuse.
我得走了。 I had to go.
所以，我去了波兰，那里有一群很棒的年轻男女。 So, I went to Poland, and it was this wonderful group of young men and women.
他为我们找到的森林绝对是神奇的。 And the forest he had found us was absolutely magical.
你知道，那是一片巨大的森林。 You know, it was a huge forest.
我是说，那些树太大了……四五个人手挽着手都不能搂住树。 I mean, the trees were so large... that four or five people linking their arms couldn't get their arms around the trees.
所以我们就在这座小城堡的废墟旁露营……我们会围着这块巨大的石板吃饭，它就像一张桌子。 So we were camped out beside the ruins of this tiny little castle... and we would eat around this great stone slab that served as a sort of a table.
我们的时间表通常是在日落时分开始工作。通常我们会工作到早上6点或7点。 And our schedule was that usually we'd start work around sunset... and then generally we'd work until about 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning.
然后，因为波兰人喜欢唱歌和跳舞……我们会唱歌跳舞直到早上10点或11点。 And then, because the Poles love to sing and dance... we'd sing and dance until about 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning.
然后我们吃我们的食物，通常是面包、果酱、奶酪和茶。 And then we'd have our food, which was generally bread, jam, cheese and tea.
然后我们从中午一直睡到日落。 And then we'd sleep from around noon to sunset.
现在，技术上，当然-技术上，这个情况很有趣…因为如果你发现自己和40个人一起在森林里…… Now, technically, of course - Technically, the situation is a very interesting one... because if you find yourself in a forest with a group of 40 people...
谁不会说你的语言，那么你的一切寄托都不见了。 who don't speak your language, then all your moorings are gone.
你到底是什么意思? What do you mean exactly?
我们要做的就是坐在那里等着…某人有做某事的冲动。 Well, what we'd do is just sit there and wait... for someone to have an impulse to do something.
在某种程度上，这有点像戏剧的即兴创作。 Now, in a way that's - that's something like a theatrical improvisation.
我的意思是，你知道，如果你是一个导演，在创作契诃夫的戏剧……你可能会让演员扮演母亲、儿子和叔叔…… I mean, you know, if you were a director working on a play by Chekhov... you might have the actors playing the mother, the son and the uncle...
大家围坐在一个房间里，编出剧本里没有的场景。 all sit around in a room and do a made-up scene that isn't in the play.
例如，你可以对他们说……“好吧。假设这是一个下雨的周日下午，在Sorin的庄园里……你们都被困在客厅里了。” For instance, you might say to them... “All right. Let's say that it's a rainy Sunday afternoon on Sorin's estate... and you're all trapped in the drawing room together.”
然后每个人都会即兴发挥，说和做他们的角色在那种情况下可能说和做的事。 And then everyone would improvise - saying and doing what their character might say and do in that circumstance.
除了在这种即兴创作中——就像我们在波兰做的那种——主题是自己。 Except that in this type of improvisation - the kind we did in Poland - the theme is oneself.
所以，你也遵循即兴创作的法则…也就是你按照角色的冲动去做……但这次，你就是角色。 So, you follow the same law of improvisation... which is that you do whatever your impulse, as the character, tells you to do... but in this case, you are the character.
所以没有想象中的场景可以隐藏…也没有其他人可以躲。 So there's no imaginary situation to hide behind... and there's no other person to hide behind.
事实上，你在问同样的问题…斯坦尼斯拉夫斯基说演员应该作为一个角色不断地问自己: What you're doing, in fact, is you're asking those same questions... that Stanislavsky said the actor should constantly ask himself as a character:
我是谁?我为什么在这里? Who am I? Why am I here?
我从哪里来，要到哪里去? Where do I come from, and where am I going?
但你不是把它们应用到某个角色上，而是应用到你自己身上。 But instead of applying them to a role, you apply them to yourself.
——嗯。-或者换个角度看…在某种程度上，这就像回到了童年……一群孩子进入一个房间或者被带进一个房间 - Hmm. - Or, to look at it a little differently... in a way, it's like going right back to childhood... where a group of children simply come into a room or are brought into a room -
没有玩具，开始玩。 without toys - and begin to play.
大人们又开始学习如何玩耍了。 Grown-ups were learning how to play again.
所以，你们会一起坐在某个地方……而且，你会以某种方式演奏。 So, you would, uh, all sit together somewhere... and, uh, you would play in some way.
-但你会怎么做?-我可以给你个好例子。 - But what would you actually do? - Well, I could give you a good example.
你看，我们一起在城里工作了一周…在我们去森林之前。 You see, we worked, uh, together for a week in the city... before we went off to our forest.
当然，格罗托斯基也在城里。 And of course, Grotowski was there in the city too.
我听说他每天晚上都指挥一个叫蜂巢的东西。 I heard that every night, he conducted something called a beehive.
我喜欢这个蜂巢的声音……所以在我们要去乡下的前一两个晚上…我抓住他的衣领，说:“听着，关于这个蜂巢。 I loved the sound of this beehive... so a night or two before we were supposed to go off to the country... I grabbed him by the collar, and I said, “Listen, about this beehive.
“你知道，我有点想参与其中。 “You know, I'd kind of like to participate in one.
我本能地觉得这会很有趣。” Just instinctively I feel it would be something interesting.”
他说:“当然可以。事实上，为什么你不和你的团队一起…领导蜂巢，而不是参与蜂巢?” And he said, “Well, certainly. In fact, why don't you, with your group... lead the beehive instead of participating in one?”
我当时非常紧张，我说:“那么，蜂巢是什么?” You know, I - I got very nervous, you know, and I said, “Well, what is a beehive?”
他说:“嗯，蜂巢是……8点，100个陌生人走进一个房间。” He said, “Well, a beehive is... at 8:00 a hundred strangers come into a room.”
我说,“是吗?”他说，“是的，不管发生什么，都是一个蜂巢。” I said, “Yes?” He said, “Yes, and whatever happens is a beehive.”
我说:“是的，但我该怎么办呢?”他说:“这取决于你。” I said, “Yes, but what am I supposed to do?” He said, “That's up to you.”
我说:“不，不。我真的不想这么做。我就参加。” I said, “No, no. I really don't want to do this. I'll just participate.”
他说:“不，不。你领导着蜂巢。” And he said, “No, no. You lead the beehive.”
我吓坏了，沃利。 Well, I was terrified, Wally.
我的意思是，在某种程度上，我觉得在舞台上。 I mean, in a way, I felt on stage.
但我还是做了。 I did it anyway.
神。好吧，跟我说说。 God. Well, tell me about it.
你看，有这首歌，我有它的磁带。有一天我可以弹给你听。 You see, there was this song - I have a tape of it. I can play it for you one day.
它是难以置信的美丽。 And it's just unbelievably beautiful.
你看，我们小组里的一个女人知道圣弗朗西斯这首歌的一些片段……在这首歌里，你感谢上帝赐予你眼睛…… You see, one of the women in our group knew a few fragments of this song of Saint Francis... and it's a song in which you thank God for your eyes...
感谢上帝赐给你心灵，感谢上帝赐给你朋友……你感谢上帝赐予你生命。 and you thank God for your heart, and you thank God for your friends... and you thank God for your life.
它，它不断地重复着自己。 And it, uh - It repeats itself over and over again.
这成了我们的主题曲。 And this became our theme song.
有一天我一定要为你弹这首歌……因为你无法相信一群不会唱歌的人…能创造出如此美丽的东西。 I really must play this thing for you one day... because you just can't believe that a group of people who don't know how to sing... could create something so beautiful.
所以，我决定当人们到达蜂箱时……我们的乐队已经在那里唱这首非常好听的歌了…我们只是一遍又一遍地唱。 So, I decided that when the people arrived for the beehive... that our group would already be there singing this very beautiful song... and that we would simply sing it over and over again.
其中一个人决定给她带来一个非常大的泰迪熊。 One of the people decided to bring her very large teddy bear, you know.
她有点害怕这个活动。 Well, she's a little afraid of this event.
有人想带张床单来。 And somebody wanted to bring a - a sheet.
还有人想带一大碗水来……以防人们热了或渴了。 And somebody else wanted to bring a large bowl of water... in case people got hot or thirsty.
有人建议我们用蜡烛——没有人造光，只有烛光。 And somebody suggested that we have candles - that there be no artificial light, but candlelight.
我记得看着人们为今晚做准备。 And I remember watching people preparing for this evening.
当然，没有化妆，也没有服装……但这正是人们准备表演的方式。 Of course, there was no makeup, and there were no costumes... but it was exactly the way that people prepare for a performance.
你知道，人们会摘下他们的珠宝和手表……把它收起来，确保安全。 You know, people sort of taking off their jewelry and their watches... and stowing it away and making sure it's all secure.
然后人们慢慢地来了，就像他们来剧院的方式一样——1、2、10、15等等。 And then slowly people arrived, the way they would arrive at the theater - in ones and twos and 10s and 15s and what have you.
我们就坐在那里，唱着这首美妙的歌。 And we were just sitting there, and we were singing this very beautiful song.
人们开始和我们坐在一起，开始学习这首歌。 And people started to sit with us and started to learn the song.
当然，在任何表演或即兴创作中……当事情变得无聊时的本能。 Now, there is, of course, as in any performance or improvisation... instinct for when things are gonna get boring.
所以，在某个时刻——可能花了一个小时到那里，或者一个半小时——我突然抓起这个泰迪熊，把它抛向空中……140或130人突然爆炸。 So, at a certain point - It may have taken an hour to get there, an hour and a half- I suddenly grabbed this teddy bear and threw it in the air... at which 140 or 130 people suddenly exploded.
你知道，就像杰克逊·波洛克的画。 You know, it was like a - a Jackson Pollock painting, you know.
人类从这个唱着这首歌的紧密的小圈子里爆发出来。 Human beings exploded out of this tight little circle that was singing the song.
我还没反应过来，就有两个圆圈在跳舞，一个顺时针，另一个逆时针……这种节奏主要是腰部以下。 And before I knew it, there were two circles, dancing, you know - one dancing clockwise, the other dancing counterclockwise... with this rhythm mostly from the waist down.
换句话说，就像美国印第安人的舞蹈，有这种砰砰的，持续的节奏。 In other words, like an American Indian dance, with this thumping, persistent rhythm.
现在，你很容易就能看出来，因为我们说的是集体恍惚……像这样的事情和希特勒的纽伦堡集会之间的界限…在某种程度上，是一条很细的线。 Now, you could easily see, 'cause we're talking about group trance... where the line between something like this and something like Hitler's Nuremberg rallies... is, in a way, a very thin line.
不管怎样，在这疯狂、催眠的舞蹈大约一个小时后……格罗托斯基和我在整个事件中面对面坐着。 Anyway, after about an hour of this wild, hypnotic dancing... Grotowski and I found ourselves sitting opposite each other in the middle of this whole thing.
我们把泰迪熊扔来扔去。 And we threw the teddy bear back and forth.
你知道，在某种程度上，你可以说这很幼稚。 You know, on one level, you could say this is childish.
然后我给泰迪熊吸吮，突然，在我的胸部。 And I gave the teddy bear suck, suddenly, at my breast.
然后我把泰迪熊扔给他，他吸了他的胸。 And then I threw the teddy bear to him, and he gave it suck at his breast.
然后泰迪熊又被抛向空中……在那里有另一个形式爆炸成……某物 And then the teddy bear was thrown up into the air again... at which there was another explosion of form into... something.
还有这些-那是什么样的?你知道，这是-有一个像万花筒的东西，像人类的万花筒。 And these - What was it like? You know, this is the - There's something like a kaleidoscope, like a human kaleidoscope.
夜晚是由万花筒的变换组成的。 The evening was made up of shiftings of the kaleidoscope.
我记得的另外一件事…除了不断尝试引导这东西…它总是与动作，节奏，重复或歌曲有关 Now, the only other things that I remember... other than constantly trying to guide this thing... which was always involved with either movement, rhythm, repetition or song -
或者诵经，因为，呃，我的小组里有两个人…带来了乐器，长笛和鼓……当然，这些都是神圣的工具——就是有时候房间会破裂…… Or chanting, because, uh, two people in my group... had brought musical instruments, a flute and a drum... which, of course, are sacred instruments - was that sometimes the room would break up...
同时发生的六七件不同的事情。 into six or seven different things going on at once.
你知道，六七个不同的即兴创作…所有这些似乎都以某种方式相互关联。 You know, six or seven different improvisations... all of which seemed, in some way, related to each other.
它就像一张华丽的蜘蛛网。 It was - It was like a magnificent cobweb.
有一次，我注意到格罗托斯基是一群人的中心……他们挤在一堆蜡烛周围。 And at one point, I noticed that Grotowski was at the center of one group... huddled around a bunch of candles that they'd gathered together.
就像一个被火迷住的小孩…我看到他的手在火焰中，握在那里。 And like a little child fascinated by fire... I saw that he had his hand right in the flame and was holding it there.
当我接近他的小组时，我想知道我是否能做到。 And as I approached his group, I wondered if I could do it.
我把左手放进火里，我发现我可以想握多久就握多久……没有烧伤，也没有疼痛。 I put my left hand in the flame and I found I could hold it there for as long as I liked... and there was no burn and no pain.
但当我试着把右手放到火里时，我一秒钟都握不住。 But when I tried to put my right hand in the flame, I couldn't hold it there for a second.
所以格罗托斯基说，“如果它燃烧了，试着改变自己的一些小事情。” So Grotowski said, “If it burns, try to change some little thing in yourself.”
我试着这么做。没有工作。 And I tried to do that. Didn't work.
然后我记得一个非常非常漂亮的游行，用床单…床单下面抬着一个人。 Then I remember a very, very beautiful procession with the sheet... and there was somebody being carried below the sheet.
床单就像圣经里的天篷。 You know, the sheet was like some great biblical canopy.
所有人都在房间里走来走去，喊着口号。 And the entire group was weaving around the room and chanting.
然后有一刻，人们在跳舞……我在和一个女孩跳舞突然，我们的手开始靠近对方振动——就像这样——振动，振动。 And then at one point, people were dancing... and I was dancing with a girl... and suddenly our hands began vibrating near each other - like this - vibrating, vibrating.
我们双膝跪地，突然间我在她怀里哭泣……她把我抱在怀里，然后她也开始哭了。 And we went down to our knees, and suddenly I was sobbing in her arms... and she was sort of cradling me in her arms, and then she started to cry too.
然后我们，然后我们互相拥抱了一会儿。 And then we - then we just hugged each other for a moment.
然后，我们又参加了舞会。 And, uh, then we joined the dance again.
然后在某个时刻，几个小时后…我们又开始唱圣方济各的歌……这就是蜂巢的终结。 And then at a certain point, hours later... we returned to the singing of the song of Saint Francis... and that was the end of the beehive.
然后，当它结束的时候，就像一场表演结束后的剧院。 And then, again, when it was over, it was just like the theater after a performance.
你知道，人们会戴上耳环和手表……然后我们去了火车站……喝很多啤酒，吃一顿丰盛的晚餐。 You know, people sort of put on their earrings and their Wristwatches... and we went off to the rail road station... to drink a lot of beer and have a good dinner.
哦，还有一个女孩，她不在我们组…但她不肯离开，所以我们就带她一起走了。 Oh, and there was one girl, who wasn't in our group... but who just wouldn't leave, so we took her along with us.
嗯。 Huh.
神。跟我说说你和你的小组做过的其他事情。 God. Well, tell me some of the other things you did with your group.
哦，我记得有一次我们在城里……我们试着即兴表演，你知道，就像我以前在纽约做的那种。 Well - Oh, I remember once when we were in the city... we tried doing an improvisation - you know, the kind that I used to do in New York.
每个人都应该在飞机上…他们都从飞行员那里得知发动机出了问题。 Uh, everybody was supposed to be on an airplane... and they've all learned from the pilot there's something wrong with the motor.
但这次即兴表演的不同寻常之处在于是参与其中的两个人…坠入爱河。 But what was unusual about this improvisation... was that two people who participated in it... fell in love.
事实上，他们已经结婚了。 They've, in fact, married.
当我们-是的，出于恐惧…在这架飞机上，他们相爱了…以为自己随时都会死。 And when we were - Yeah, out of fear... of being on this plane, they fell in love... thinking they were going to die at any moment.
当我们去森林的时候，这两个人消失了…因为他们非常了解这个实验……他们意识到一起去森林里要重要得多…… And when we went to the forest, these two disappeared... because they understood the - the experiment so well... that they realized that to go off together in the forest was much more important...
比任何一组人做的实验都要好。 than any kind of experiment the group could do as a whole.
所以，这周过半了…我们无意中走进了森林中的一块空地。他们俩在彼此的臂弯里睡着了。 So, uh, about halfway through the week... we stumbled into a clearing in the forest... and the two of them were fast asleep in each other's arms.
当时是黎明时分，我们在上面放了花……让他们知道我们去过那里，然后我们偷偷溜走了。 It was around dawn, and we put flowers on them... to let them know we'd been there, and then we crept away.
然后在我们在森林里逗留的最后一天，这两个人出现了……他们和我握手，非常感谢我……感谢他们所做的出色工作。 And then on the last day of our stay in the forest, these two showed up... and they shook me by my hands, and they thanked me very much... for the wonderful work they'd been able to do, you see.
他们明白这是怎么回事。 They understood what it was about.
我的意思是，当然，这提出了一个问题，那是关于什么的。 I mean, that, of course, poses the question of what was it about.
但它与生活有关。 But it has - has something to do with living.
然后在我们在森林里逗留的最后一天……整个团队都为我做了这么棒的事，沃利。 And then on the final day of our stay in the forest... the whole group did something so wonderful for me, Wally.
他们为我安排了一个洗礼仪式。 They arranged a christening - a baptism - for me.
他们在城堡里摆满了鲜花。 And they filled the castle with flowers.
这只是光的奇迹…因为他们真的竖起了数百支蜡烛和火把。 And it was just a miracle of light... because they had literally set up hundreds of candles and torches.
我是说，没有比这更漂亮的教堂了。 I mean, no church could have looked more beautiful.
有一个简单的仪式，其中一个扮演我的教母……还有一个扮演我的教父。 There was a simple ceremony, and one of them played the role of my godmother... and another played the role of my godfather.
我有了一个新名字。他们叫我Yendrush。 And I was given a new name. They called me Yendrush.
有些人完全把它当回事……有些人觉得很有趣。 And some of the people took it completely seriously... and some of them found it funny.
但是，我真的觉得我有了个新名字。 But, uh, I really felt that I had a new name.
然后我们吃了一顿丰盛的晚餐，有从地里摘的蓝莓……还有巧克力，有人走了很远的路去买……还有覆盆子汤和炖兔肉。 And then we had an enormous feast, with blueberries picked from the field... and chocolate someone had gone a great distance to buy... and raspberry soup and rabbit stew.
我们唱波兰歌曲和希腊歌曲……剩下的时间大家都在跳舞。 And we sang Polish songs and Greek songs... and everybody danced for the rest of the night.
——嗯。-我有张照片 - Hmm. - Oh, I have a picture.
看，这是-我们看看。 See, this was - Let's see.
哦,是的。这是我在森林里的样子。看到了吗? Oh, yeah. This was me in the forest. See?
——上帝!-这就是我的感觉。 - God! - That's what I felt like.
-那是我当时的状态。- - -神。 - That's the state I was in. - God.
是的。我记得乔治，告诉我他那个时候见过你。 Yeah. I remember George, uh, told me he'd seen you around that time.
他说你看起来像刚从战场上回来。 He said you looked like you'd come back from a war.
是的，我记得见过他。他问了我很多友好的问题。 Yeah, I remember meeting him. He, uh - He asked me a lot of friendly questions.
我想那年夏天我也给你打过电话，对吧? I think I called you up, too, that summer, didn't I?
嗯。 Huh.
我想我出城了。 I think I was out of town.
是啊，我遇到的大多数人都觉得我有问题。 Yeah, well, most people I met thought there was something wrong with me.
他们没这么说，但我看得出他们是这么想的。 They didn't say that, but I could tell that that was what they thought.
但是…你看，我所经历的…是……这是我人生中第一次……要知道真正活着意味着什么。 But... you see, what I think I experienced... was... for the first time in my life... to know what it means to be truly alive.
现在，这非常可怕……因为随之而来的是对死亡的直接意识…因为它们是密切相关的。 Now, that's very frightening... because with that comes an immediate awareness of death... 'cause they go hand in hand.
正是这种冲动造就了沃尔特·惠特曼，造就了《草叶集》 You know, the kind of impulse that led to Walt Whitman, that led to Leaves of Grass.
那种与万物相连的感觉……也意味着与死亡有关。 That feeling of being connected to everything... means to also be connected to death.
这很可怕。 And that's pretty scary.
但我真的觉得自己是漂浮在地面上，而不是行走。 But I really felt as if I were floating above the ground, not walking.
你知道，我可以做一些事情，比如去高速公路…看着灯从红变绿，心想:“太棒了。” You know, and I could do things like go out to the highway... and watch the lights go from red to green and think, “How wonderful.”
然后有一天，在初秋……我在乡下，走在田野里……我突然听到一个声音说:“小王子。” And then one day, in the early fall... I was out in the country, walking in a field... and I suddenly heard a voice say, “Little Prince.”
当然，《小王子》是我一直在想的一本书……就像恶心幼稚的糖浆。 Of course, The Little Prince was a book that I always thought of... as disgusting, childish treacle.
但我还是想，“嗯，你知道，如果一个声音在田野里向我走来”-这是我第一次听到的声音。 But still, I thought, “Well, you know, if a voice comes to me in a field” - This was the first voice I had ever heard.
也许我应该去看看这本书。 Maybe I should go and read the book.
就在那天早上，我收到了一封信……来自我在波兰的小组里的一位年轻女士。 Now, that same morning I'd got a letter... from a young woman who'd been in my group in Poland.
她在信中写道:“你已经控制了我。” And in her letter she'd written, “You have dominated me.”
你知道，她的英语说得很蹩脚。 You know, she spoke very awkward English.
所以她去查字典，划掉了“支配”这个词……她说:“不。正确的词是‘驯服’。” So she'd gone to the dictionary, and she'd crossed out the word “dominated”... and she'd said, “No. The correct word is 'tamed.”'
然后我去镇上买了这本书，开始读…我发现“驯服”是整本书中最重要的一个词。 And then when I went to town and bought the book and started to read it... I saw that “taming” was the most important word in the whole book.
在书的结尾，我哭了，我被这个故事感动了。 By the end of the book, I was in tears, I was so moved by the story.
然后我去试着给她写回信……因为她给我写了一封很长的信 And then I went and tried to write an answer to her letter... 'cause she'd written me a very long letter.
但我就是找不到合适的语言，所以最后我握着我的手……我把它写在纸上，用钢笔勾勒出它的轮廓……我在中间写了一些类似“你的心在我手里”的东西。 But I just couldn't find the right words, so finally I took my hand... I put it on a piece of paper, I outlined it with a pen... and I wrote in the center something like, “Your heart is in my hand.”
就像这样。 Something like that.
然后我去我哥哥家游泳……因为他住在乡下附近，而且他有游泳池。 Then I went over to my brother's house to swim... 'cause he lives nearby in the country and he has a pool.
他不在家。我进了他的书房……他还在一次拍卖会上买下了《弥诺陶》的集刊。 And he wasn't home. I went into his library... and he had bought at an auction the collected issues of Minotaure.
就是那个超现实主义杂志?那是一本二三十年代的超现实主义杂志。 You know, the surrealist magazine? Oh, it's a great, great surrealist magazine of the '20s and '30s.
我从来没有-你知道，我认为自己有点超现实主义。 And I never - You know, I consider myself a bit of a surrealist.
我从未见过《弥诺陶》的副本。 I had never, ever seen a copy of Minotaure.
他们都在这里，年复一年地被绑在一起。 And here they all were, bound, year after year.
所以，我随便挑了一个，打开它……还有一整页坦尼尔的《爱丽丝梦游仙境》中的信的复制品。 So, at random, I picked one out, I opened it up... and there was a full-page reproduction of the letter from Tenniel's Alice In Wonderland.
我想-你知道的，这是巧合的一天…但超现实主义者对爱丽丝感兴趣是很正常的……我演了一出《爱丽丝》 And I thought, that - Well, you know, it's been a day of coincidences... but that's not unusual that the surrealists would have been interested in Alice... and I did a play of Alice.
于是，我随意打开了另一页……还有四个手印。 So at random, I opened to another page... and there were four handprints.
一个是André Breton，另一个是André Derain……第三个是André，我记在什么地方了。 One was André Breton, another was André Derain... the third was André - I've got it written down somewhere.
这不是安德烈。就像某人，另一个超现实主义者。 It's not Malraux. it's, like, someone - Another of the surrealists.
全是A，第四名是安托万·德Saint-Exupéry……他写了《小王子》 All A's, and the fourth was Antoine de Saint-Exupéry... who wrote The Little Prince.
他们把这些手印展示给某个专家看……也没说这是谁的手。 And they'd shown these handprints to some kind of expert... without saying whose hands they belonged to.
在Exupéry的下面，写着他是一位艺术家……有着非常有力的眼睛……他是野生动物的驯兽师。 And under Exupéry's, it said that he was an artist... with very powerful eyes... who was a tamer of wild animals.
我想"这太不可思议了" I thought, “This is incredible, you know.”
我回头看问题是什么时候出的。 And I looked back to see when the issue came out.
1934年5月12日在报摊上发行。我出生在1934年5月11日。 It came out on the newsstands May 12, 1934... and I was born during the day of May 11, 1934.
所以，这就是我在Saint-Exupéry和《小王子》上的开始。 So, well, that's what started me on, uh, Saint-Exupéry and The Little Prince.
现在，当然，今天，我认为在《小王子》中有一个非常法西斯的东西。 Now, of course, today - today I think there's a very fascistic thing under The Little Prince.
你知道，我-不，我觉得有一种-我觉得有一种党卫军极权主义的情感在其中的某个地方。 You know, I- Well, no, I think there's a kind of- - I think a kind of S.S. - totalitarian sentimentality in there somewhere.
你知道，有某种东西，你知道，那种爱，嗯，那种男性对某种油性肌肉的爱。 You know, there's something, you know - that- that love of, urn - Well, that masculine love of a certain kind of oily muscle.
你明白我的意思吗?我是说，我也说不清楚。 You know what I mean? I mean, I can't quite put my finger on it.
但我能想象出一些漂亮的s.s.男人…喜欢《小王子》。 But I can just imagine some beautiful S. S. man... loving The Little Prince.
我不知道为什么，但它肯定有问题。它很臭。 Now, I don't know why, but there's something wrong with it. It stinks.
乔治不是跟我说过你要演一部根据《小王子》改编的戏剧吗? Well, didn't George tell me that you were gonna do a play that was based on The Little Prince?
嗯。发生了什么，沃利……那年秋天我在纽约我遇到了一位年轻的日本佛教僧侣，他叫高赞……我以为他是《仲夏夜之梦》里的帕克。 Hmm. Well, what happened, Wally... was that fall I was in New York... and I met this young Japanese Buddhist priest named Kozan... and I thought he was Puck from the Midsummer Night's Dream.
你知道吗，他有一个美丽，精致的微笑。 You know, he had this beautiful, delicate smile.
我以为他是小王子。 I thought he was the Little Prince.
所以，很自然地，我决定去撒哈拉沙漠……与两位演员和这位日本和尚一起拍摄《小王子》。 So, naturally, I decided to go off to the Sahara desert... to work on The Little Prince with two actors and this Japanese monk.
你做了吗? You did?
我是说，我当时的状态还很奇怪，沃利。 Well, I mean, I was still in a very peculiar state at that time, Wally.
你知道，我会——我会看着我车的后视镜……看到小鸟从我嘴里飞出来。 You know, I would - I would look in the rearview mirror of my car... and see little birds flying out of my mouth.
我记得那段时间我总是筋疲力尽。 And I remember always being exhausted in that period.
我总是感到虚弱。我真的不知道自己是怎么了。 I always felt weak. You know, I really didn't know what was going on with me.
我会独自在乡下坐上几天…除了写日记什么都不做。 I would just sit out there all alone in the country for days... and do nothing but write in my diary.
-我一直在想死亡——嗯。 - And I was always thinking about death. - Huh.
但你去了撒哈拉沙漠。 But you went to the Sahara.
哦，是的，我们去了沙漠……我们骑着骆驼穿越沙漠。 Oh, yes, we went off into the desert... and we rode through the desert on camels.
我们骑啊骑啊。 And we rode and we rode.
到了晚上，我们会走到广阔的天空下……看看星星。 And then at night we would walk out under that enormous sky... and look at the stars.
我只是一直在想我在家里一直在想的事情——特别是奇基塔。 I just kept thinking about the same things that I was always thinking about at home - particularly about Chiquita.
事实上，我只想着我的婚姻。 In fact, I thought about just about nothing but my marriage.
然后我记得一个非常黑暗的夜晚……置身于绿洲，棕榈树在风中摇曳……我能听到科赞在远处用美妙的低音唱歌。 And then I remember one incredibly dark night... being at an oasis, and there were palm trees moving in the wind... and I could hear Kozan singing far away in that beautiful bass voice.
我试着沿着沙滩跟着他的声音。 And I tried to follow his voice along the sand.
你看，我以为他有东西要教我，沃利。 [ Laughing 1 You see, I thought he had something to teach me, Wally.
有时我会和他一起冥想。 And sometimes I would meditate with him.
有时我会自己去冥想。 Sometimes I'd go off and meditate by myself.
我会看到奇基塔的照片。 You know, I would see images of Chiquita.
有一次我真的看到她变老了……她的头发在我眼前变白了。 Once I actually saw her growing old... and her hair turning gray in front of my eyes.
我就会在沙丘上嚎啕大哭。 And I would just wail and yell my lungs out out there on the dunes.
总之，沙漠是相当可怕的。 Anyway, the desert was pretty horrible.
天气很冷。 It was pretty cold.
我们在找什么东西，但不知道有没有找到。 We were searching for something, but we couldn't tell if we were finding anything.
你知道有一次科赞和我，我们坐在沙丘上，我们只吃沙子。 You know that once Kozan and I - we were sitting on a dune, and we just ate sand.
不，我们不是想搞笑。我开始，然后他开始。 No, we weren't trying to be funny. I started, then he started.
我们只是吃了沙子，然后吐了。这就是我们当时的绝望。 We just ate sand and threw up. That's how desperate we were.
换句话说，我们不知道我们为什么会在那里。我们不知道要找什么。 In other words, we didn't know why we were there. We didn't know what we were looking for.
整个事情似乎完全荒谬、枯燥和空虚。 The entire thing seemed completely absurd, arid and empty.
就像，就像最后一次机会。 It was like, uh - like a last chance or something.
嗯。 Huh.
那么接下来发生了什么? So what happened then?
那时候…我完全是一时冲动。 Well, in those days... I went completely on impulse.
所以我一时冲动把科赞带回来和我们一起住在纽约……我们从撒哈拉沙漠回来后，他在那里待了六个月。 So on impulse I brought Kozan back to stay with us in New York... after we got back from the Sahara, and he stayed for six months.
-在某种程度上，他真的接管了整个家庭。-什么意思? - And he really sort of took over the whole family, in a way. - What do you mean'?
那时候房子里肯定少了一个中心。 Well, there was certainly a center missing in the house at the time.
当然没有父亲，因为我一直在想……去西藏或者做什么鬼知道 There certainly wasn't a father, 'cause I was always thinking... about going off to Tibet or doing God knows what.
于是他教全家人冥想。他给他们讲了亚洲、东方、他的修道院和一切。 And so he taught the whole family to meditate... and he told them all about Asia and the East and his monastery and everything.
他用一套令人难以置信的戏法迷住了所有人。 He really captivated everybody with an incredible bag of tricks.
他真的发展了自己，沃利……这样他就能按一下手指，从椅子上站起来。 He had literally developed himself, Wally... so that he could push on his fingers and rise off out of his chair.
我的意思是，他可以像这样——你知道，按一下他的手指，然后倒立……用两根手指按住自己。 I mean, he could literally go like this - You know, push on his fingers and go into like a headstand... and just hold himself there with two fingers.
或者奇基塔的脖子突然有点紧张……嗯，他会马上把她推倒在地板上，他会在她背上走来走去…… Or if Chiquita would suddenly get a little tension in her neck... well, he'd immediately have her down on the floor, he'd be walking up and down on her back...
做着令人难以置信的按摩。 doing these unbelievable massages, you know.
孩子们觉得他很了不起。 And the children found him amazing.
我是说，你知道，我们会去拜访有孩子的朋友…他马上就会和这些孩子一起玩……以一种，你知道，我们做不到的方式。 I mean, you know, we'd visit friends who had children... and immediately he'd be playing with these children... in a way that, you know, we just can't do.
我是说，那些孩子——只是傻笑，傻笑，傻笑……这位日本僧人穿着圣袍做什么 I mean, those children - just giggles, giggles, giggles... about what this Japanese monk was doing in these holy robes.
我是说，他是一个杂技演员，一个腹语演员……一个魔术师,一切。 I mean, he was an acrobat, a ventriloquist... a magician, everything.
你知道吗，最神奇的是…我觉得他对孩子一点兴趣都没有。 You know, the amazing thing was that... I don't think he had any interest in children whatsoever.
没有。我觉得他不喜欢。 None at all. I don't think he liked them.
我是说，你知道，当他和我们住在一起的时候…在第一周，孩子们真的对他垂涎三滴。 I mean, you know, when he stayed with us... in the first week, really, the kids were just googly-eyed over him.
但几周后，奇基塔和我就可以出去了……玛丽娜可能会得流感或者发烧他甚至都不进去跟她打招呼。 But then a couple of weeks later, Chiquita and I could be out... and Marina could have flu or a temperature of 104... and he wouldn't even go in and say hello to her.
但他接管的越来越多。 But he was taking over more and more.
我是说，他自己的习惯完全改变了。 I mean, his own habits had completely changed.
他开始在白色僧袍下穿着优雅的古驰鞋。 You know, he started wearing these elegant Gucci shoes under his white monk's robes.
他吃了大量的食物。 He was eating huge amounts of food.
他吃的是尼古拉斯的两倍，你知道吗? I mean, he ate twice as much as Nicolas ate, you know?
我第一次见到这个小小的佛教徒时，你知道…正在吃一小碗牛奶——热牛奶配米饭——现在正在吃大块牛肉。 This tiny little Buddhist when I first met him, you know... was eating a little bowl of milk - hot milk with rice - was now eating huge beef.
这真的很奇怪。 It was just very strange.
我们试过一起工作，但我们的工作主要是…我试着做这些修道院里做的非常痛苦的拜忏。 You know, and we had tried working together, but really our work consisted mostly... of my trying to do these incredibly painful prostrations that they do in the monastery.
你知道，我们真的没怎么工作。 You know, so really we hadn't been working very much.
总之，我们当时在乡下，我们一起去参加了圣诞弥撒。 Anyway, we were out in the country, and we all went to Christmas mass together.
你知道，他穿着佛教的服饰。 You know, he was all dressed up in his Buddhist finery.
它是长岛那些可怕、沉闷的天主教堂之一……牧师谈论共产主义和节育。 And it was one of those - one of those awful, dreary Catholic churches on Long Island... where the priest talks about communism and birth control.
当我坐在那里做弥撒时，我在想，“到底发生了什么?” And as I was sitting there in mass, I was wondering, “What in the world is going on?”
我是说，我来了。我是个成年人了……有个奇怪的人住在我的房子里，而我没有工作-你知道，我什么都没做，只是在日记里潦草地写了几首诗。 I mean, here I am. I'm a grown man... and there's this strange person living in the house, and I'm not working - You know, I was doing nothing but scribbling a little poetry in my diary.
我找不到教书的工作了，我不知道我想做什么。 And I can't get a job teaching anymore, and I don't know what I want to do.
突然，一个巨大的生物出现了，看着会众。 When all of a sudden a huge creature appeared, looking at the congregation.
大约，我说，6英尺8英寸——差不多，你知道……这是半牛半人……它的皮肤是蓝色的。 It was about, I'd say, 6'8” - something like that, you know... and it was - it was half bull, half man... and its skin was blue.
眼皮上长着紫罗兰，脚趾甲上长着罂粟花。 It had violets growing out of its eyelids and poppies growing out of its toenails.
整个弥撒时它都站在那里。 And it just stood there for the whole mass.
我是说，我不能让那个怪物消失。 I mean, I could not make that creature disappear.
我想，“哦，好吧。你知道，我看到这些只是因为我很无聊。” You know, I thought, “Oh, well. You know, I'm just seeing this 'cause I'm bored.”
你知道，关闭我的。我无法让那个怪物离开。 You know, close my - I could not make that creature go away.
好吧。现在，我没有和人们谈论这件事，因为他们会觉得我很奇怪……但我觉得这个生物是来安慰我的……不知怎的，他似乎在说…… Okay. Now, I didn't talk with people about it, because they'd think I was weird... but I felt that this creature was somehow coming to comfort me... that somehow he was appearing to say...
“嗯，你可能会情绪低落，你现在可能无法创作剧本……“但看看你能在平安夜得到什么。等等，老朋友。 “Well, you may feel low and you might not be able to create a play right now... “but look at what can come to you on Christmas Eve. Hang on, old friend.
“你可能觉得我很奇怪，但在这些奇怪的航行中……“奇怪的生物出现。 “I may seem weird to you, but on these weird voyages... “weird creatures appear.
这是旅程的一部分。你是好的。挂在那里。” It's part of the journey. You're okay. Hang in there.”
对了，你有没有见过…那出戏，紫罗兰是蓝色的? By the way, uh, did you ever see... that play, uh, The Violets are Blue?
不。 No.
你提到紫罗兰的时候，让我想起了这个。 Oh, when you mentioned the violets, it-it reminded me of that.
是关于，嗯，人们…在潜水艇上被勒死了。 It-It was about, urn, people... being, uh, strangled on a - on a submarine.
嗯。 Hmm.
那是，那是圣诞节。 Well, so that was - that was Christmas.
之后发生了什么? What happened after that?
-你真的想听这些吗?-是的。 - Do you really want to hear about all this? - Yeah.
嗯，在那个时候…… Well, around that time...
我开始考虑去印度了。有一天，哥赞突然离开了。 I was beginning to think about going to India. And Kozan suddenly left one day.
那时候我开始有很多奇怪的想法。 I was beginning to get into a lot of very strange ideas around that time.
现在，举个例子，我发明了这个——嗯，我有了这个想法——现在，它对我很有吸引力，你知道——那就是我要有一面旗帜，一面很大的旗帜…… Now, for example, I'd developed this - Well, I got this idea which I - Now, it was very appealing to me at the time, you know - which was that I would have a flag, a large flag...
无论我在哪里工作，这面旗帜都会飘扬。 and that wherever I worked, this flag would fly.
或者如果我们在外面，比如说，和一群人在一起，国旗可能是我们晚上躺在上面的东西……不知怎么的，在工作和躺在这面旗帜上之间…飘扬在我们头顶的这面旗帜…… Or if we were outside, say, with a group, that the flag could be the thing we lay on at night... and that somehow, between working on this flag and lying on this flag... this flag flying over us...
这面旗帜会接收到一种振动…我把它带回家时，它还在国旗上。 that the flag would pick up vibrations of a kind... that would still be in the flag when I brought it home.
所以我去见了那个我听说过的制旗师。 So I went down to meet this flag maker that I'd heard about.
你知道，有一个非常直接的前瞻性的人。 And you know, there was this very straightforward-looking guy.
你知道，很可爱，看起来很健康，一切都很好。好大,金色。 You know, very sweet, really healthy-looking and everything. Nice big, blond.
他在村子里有一间漂亮干净的阁楼，上面挂着可爱而欢快的旗子。 And he had a beautiful, clean loft down in the village with lovely, happy flags.
我很喜欢《小王子》，我跟他说了《小王子》……这些冒险和所有的一切，嚎叫需要旗帜和旗帜应该是什么。 And I was all into The Little Prince, and I talked to him about The Little Prince... these adventures and everything, howl needed the flag and what the flag should be.
他似乎真的与之息息相通。 He seemed to really connect with it.
所以，两周后，我回来了。 So, two weeks later, I came back.
他给我看了一面旗帜，我觉得很奇怪，你知道……因为我有，你知道的，你知道的…我原以为会是些温柔而抒情的东西。 He showed me a flag that I thought was very odd, you know... 'cause I had, you know - well, you know... I had expected something gentle and lyrical.
有一种力量如此强大……这几乎是压倒性的。 There was something about this that was so powerful... it was almost overwhelming.
它确实包括了西藏的万字符。 And it did include the Tibetan swastika.
他在你的国旗上放了纳粹十字? He put a swastika in your flag?
不，是西藏的纳粹党所用的十字记号，不是纳粹的。 No, it was the Tibetan swastika, not the Nazi swastika.
它是西藏最古老的象征之一。 It's one of the most ancient Tibetan symbols.
这很奇怪，你知道吗? And it was just strange, you know?
但我把它带回家了，因为我用这面旗的主意…是在我离开之前——你知道，在我去印度之前…… But I brought it home, because my idea with this flag... was that before I left - you know, before I left for India...
我想让几个跟我很亲近的人晚上把这面旗帜放在房间里……带着它睡觉，你知道，然后早上在国旗上缝东西。 I wanted several people who were close to me to have this flag in the room for the night... to sleep with it, you know, and then in the morning to sew something into the flag.
所以我把国旗带到玛丽娜，我说，“嘿，看看这个。你觉得这个怎么样?” So I took the flag into Marina, and I said, “Hey, look at this. What do you think of this?”
她说:“那是什么?这是糟透了。”我说:“这是一面旗帜。” And she said, “What is that? That's awful.” I said, “It's a flag.”
她说，“我不喜欢。” And she said, “I don't like it.”
我说，“我觉得你可能想和它一起过夜。” I said, “I kind of thought you might like to spend the night with it, you know.”
但她真的认为国旗很糟糕。 But she really thought the flag was awful.
然后奇基塔在我去印度之前为我办了个派对…公寓里挤满了客人。 So then Chiquita threw this party for me before I left for India... and the apartment was filled with guests.
奇基塔说:“国旗，国旗。国旗在哪里?” And at one point Chiquita said, “The flag, the flag. Where's the flag?”
我说，“哦，是的。国旗。”然后我去拿旗子，把它打开。 And I said, “Oh, yeah. The flag.” And I go and get the flag, and I open it up.
奇基塔脸色发白，跑出房间呕吐。 Chiquita goes absolutely white and runs out of the room and vomits.
所以派对就停了下来，然后解散了。 So the party just comes to a halt and breaks up.
然后第二天我把它给了一个年轻的女人…她是我在波兰的小组成员，现在在纽约。 And then the next day I gave it to this young woman... who'd been in my group in Poland, who was now in New York.
我什么都没跟她说。 I didn't tell her anything about any of this.
早上5点，她给我打电话说…“我得马上来看你。”我想，“哦，上帝。” At 5:00 in the morning, she called me up and she said... “I gotta come and see you right away.” I thought, “Oh, God.”
她走过来，说:“我看到了一些东西——我看到了国旗周围的东西。 She came up, and she said, “I saw things - I saw things around this flag.
“我知道你很固执，我知道你想把这东西带走……“但如果你听我的建议，就把它埋在地上的一个洞里…… “Now, I know you're stubborn, and I know you want to take this thing with you... “but if you'd follow my advice, you'd put it in a hole in the ground...
把它烧掉，用土盖上，因为里面有魔鬼。” and burn it and cover it with earth, 'cause the devil's in it.”
我没带国旗。 I never took the flag with me.
事实上，我把它给了她，她用它举行了一个仪式……六个月后，在法国，和一些朋友…他们确实把它烧掉了。 In fact, I gave it to her, and, uh, she - she had a ceremony with it... six months later, in France, with some friends... in which, uh, they did burn it.
神。 God.
这真是太神奇了。 That's really, really amazing.
你去过印度吗? So, did you ever go to India?
哦，是的，我春天去了印度，沃利…我回到家时感觉很糟糕 Oh, yes, I-I went to India in the spring, Wally... and I came back home feeling all wrong.
我的意思是，你知道，我去过印度，我觉得自己像个游客。 I mean, you know, I'd been to India, and I'd just felt like a tourist.
我什么也没找到。 I'd found nothing.
所以我，我和我的家人在长岛度过了一个夏天…我听说苏格兰有个叫芬德霍恩的社区…人们在那里唱歌，聊天，和植物一起冥想。 So I was - I was spending, uh, the summer on Long Island with my family... and I heard about this community in Scotland called Findhorn... where people sang and talked and meditated with plants.
它是由几个相当中产阶级的英格兰和苏格兰怪人建立的。 And it was founded by several rather middle-class English and Scottish eccentrics.
有些是知识分子，有些不是。 Some of them intellectuals, and some of them not.
我听说他们在土壤里种东西……那应该是什么都不能生长的地方，因为那几乎是海滩土壤…… And I'd heard that they'd grown things in soil... that supposedly nothing can grow in, 'cause it's almost beach soil...
他们建造了——不是建造——他们种植了世界上最大的花椰菜……还有一种卷心菜。 and that they'd built - not built - they'd grown the largest cauliflowers in the world... and there are sort of cabbages.
他们种的树在不列颠群岛是无法生长的。 And they've grown trees that can't grow in the British Isles.
所以我去了那里。我是说，那是个很棒的地方，沃利。 So I went there. I mean, it is an amazing place, Wally.
我的意思是，如果有昆虫打扰植物…他们会和昆虫交谈，你知道，达成协议…… I mean, if there are insects bothering the plants... they will talk with the insects and, you know, make an agreement...
他们会为昆虫留出一块特别的蔬菜……然后昆虫会离开主要部分。 by which they'll set aside a special patch of vegetables just for the insects... and then the insects will leave the main part alone.
——嗯。-诸如此类的事情。 - Huh. - Things like that.
他们做的每一件事都做得很漂亮。 And everything they do they do beautifully.
我的意思是，这些建筑闪闪发光。 I mean, the buildings just shine.
我的意思是，比如，冰箱，炉子，汽车，它们都有名字。 And I mean, for instance, the icebox, the stove, the car - they all have names.
既然你不愿请海伦，那冰箱…玛格丽特，你的妻子 And since you wouldn't treat Helen, the icebox... with any less respect than you would Margaret, your wife...
你要确保海伦和玛格丽特一样干净，或者得到同等的尊重。 you know, you make sure that Helen is as clean as Margaret, or treated with equal respect.
沃利，我记得我在树林里……我看着一片树叶，我真的能看到那东西……那是活在那片叶子里的。 And when I was there, Wally, I remember being in the woods... and I would look at a leaf, and I would actually see that thing... that is alive in that leaf.
然后我记得我在树林里以最快的速度奔跑……我笑得不可思议… And then I remember just running through the woods as fast as I could... with this incredible laugh coming out of me...
真正处于那种状态，你知道，笑声和眼泪似乎融合在一起。 and really being in that state, you know, where laughter and tears seem to merge.
我的意思是，它完全把我炸开了。 I mean, it absolutely blasted me open.
当我从芬德霍恩出来的时候，我不停地产生幻觉。 When I came out of Findhorn, I was hallucinating nonstop.
我把云看成生物。 I was seeing clouds as creatures.
飞机上的人都有动物的脸。 The people on the airplane all had animals' faces.
我是说，我在旅行。就像突然进入了威廉·布莱克的世界。 I mean, I was on a trip. It was like being in a William Blake world suddenly.
事情是爆炸。 Things were exploding.
所以我马上去了贝尔格莱德，因为我想和格罗托斯基谈谈。 So immediately I went to Belgrade, 'cause I wanted to talk to Grotowski.
Grotowski和我午夜时分在我的酒店房间里碰面……我们喝的速溶咖啡是用我的剃须膏泡的……我们从午夜一直聊到第二天早上11点。 Grotowski and I got together at midnight in my hotel room... and we drank instant coffee out of the top of my shaving cream... and we talked from midnight until 11:00 the next morning.
- - -神。他说了什么?——没有! - God. What did he say? - Nothing!
我说。他一句话也没说。 I talked. He didn't say a word.
然后-然后我想真的…最后一次这样的大经历发生在那年秋天。 And - And then I guess really... the last big experience of this kind took place that fall.
在长岛的蒙托克…当时我们只有九个人，大部分是男人。 It was out at Montauk on Long Island... and there were only about nine of us involved, mostly men.
我们借了迪克·埃夫登在蒙托克的财产。 And we borrowed Dick Avedon's property out at Montauk.
外面的国家就像希斯克利夫的国家。 And the country out there is like Heathcliff country.
真是太疯狂了。 It's absolutely wild.
我们想要做的是，你知道，我们想要把万灵之夜、万圣节……把它作为某件事的起点。 What we wanted to do was we wanted to take, you know - We wanted to take All Souls' Eve, Halloween... and use it as a point of departure for something.
所以我们每个人都为其他人准备了某种活动……在万灵之夜的精神中。 So each one of us prepared some sort of event for the others... somehow in the spirit of All Souls' Eve.
但最重要的是有三个人…每天半夜都会消失我们知道他们正在准备一件大事……但我们不知道是什么。 But the biggest event was three of the people... kept disappearing in the middle of the night each night... and we knew they were preparing something big... but we didn't know what.
在万圣节的午夜，在漆黑的月光下，在这些悬崖上……我们都被告知在悬崖顶上集合，然后被带到某个地方。 And midnight on Halloween, under a dark moon, above these cliffs... we were all told to gather at the topmost cliff and that we would be taken somewhere.
我们所做的。我们等着，当时非常非常冷。 And we did. And we waited, and it was very, very cold.
然后他们三个——海伦、比尔和弗雷德——穿着白色的衣服出现了。 And then the three of them - Helen, Bill and Fred - showed up wearing white.
你知道，他们用床单做的东西，看起来有点吓人，一点都不好笑。 You know, something they'd made out of sheets - looked a little spooky, not funny.
他们把我们带到一间被烧毁的房子的地下室。 And they took us into the basement of this house that had burned down on the property.
在这个破败的地下室里，他们摆了一张桌子，上面放着自己做的凳子。 And in this ruined basement, they had set up a table with benches they'd made.
在这张桌子上，他们放了纸、铅笔、酒和玻璃杯。 And on this table they had laid out paper, pencils, wine and glasses.
我们都被要求坐在桌旁，写下我们最后的遗嘱。 And we were all asked to sit at the table and to make out our last will and testament.
你知道，思考并写下我们对世界说的最后一句话……或者跟我们很亲近的人。 You know, to think about and write down whatever our last words were to the world... or to somebody we were very close to.
这是一项艰巨的任务。 And that's quite a task.
我大概在那里待了一个半小时，也许两个小时。 I must have been there for about an hour and a half or so, maybe two.
然后一次一个，他们会请我们中的一个跟他们一起去……我是最后一个 And then one at a time they would ask one of us to come with them... and I was one of the last.
他们来找我，把我的眼睛蒙上…他们带我穿过这些田地，两个人。 And they came for me, and they put a blindfold on me... and they ran me through these fields - two people.
他们发现了一种盆栽棚——你知道，一种棚，在地上……一个曾经有工具的小房间。 And they'd found a kind of potting shed - you know, a kind of shed, on the grounds... a little tiny room that had once had tools in it.
他们带我走下台阶，来到地下室……房间里充满了刺眼的白光。 And they took me down the steps, into this basement... and the room was just filled with harsh white light.
然后他们让我脱下衣服，把我所有的贵重物品交给他们。 Then they told me to get undressed and give them all my valuables.
然后他们把我放在桌子上，用海绵擦洗我。 Then they put me on a table, and they sponged me down.
你知道的，我开始不停地在死亡集中营和秘密警察身上闪。 Well, you know, I just started flashing on-on-on death camps and secret police.
我不知道其他人怎么了，但我忍不住哭了起来。 I don't know what happened to the other people, but I just started to cry uncontrollably.
然后他们让我站起来拍了我的裸照。 Uh, then-then they got me to my feet and they took photographs of me, naked.
然后我赤身裸体，再次蒙上眼睛，在森林中奔跑……我们来到了一种用床单做的帐篷，床单铺在地上。 And then naked, again blindfolded, I was run through these forests... and we came to a kind of tent made of sheets, with sheets on the ground.
到处都是赤裸的身体……挤在一起取暖御寒。 And there were all these naked bodies... huddling together for warmth against the cold.
肯定是被丢在那里一个小时了。 Must have been left there for about an hour.
然后再一次，一个接一个，一个接一个，我们被带了出去。 And then again, one by one, one at a time, we were led out.
蒙上了眼罩。我感到自己被放到了一个类似担架的东西上。 The blindfold was put on... and I felt myself being lowered onto something like a stretcher.
担架被缓慢地抬着穿过这片森林，走了很远的路……然后我觉得自己被压到了地上。 And the stretcher was carried a long way, very slowly, through these forests... and then I felt myself being lowered into the ground.
事实上，他们挖了六个坟墓……八英尺深。 They had, in fact, dug six graves... eight feet deep.
然后我觉得这些木头被压在我身上。 And then I felt these pieces of wood being put on me.
我也无法告诉你，沃利，我经历了什么。 And I cannot tell you, Wally, what I was going through.
然后担架被放进了坟墓里…然后有人把木头放在我身上…然后我的贵重物品被放在我身上，在我手里。 And then the stretcher was lowered into the grave... and then this wood was put on me... and then my valuables were put on me, in my hands.
他们拿了，你知道，一种床单或帆布…它们在我头顶上伸展了这么多……然后他们往坟墓里铲土… And they'd taken, you know, a kind of sheet or canvas... and they'd stretched about this much above my head... and then they shoveled dirt into the grave...
所以我真的有被活埋的感觉。 so that I really had the feeling of being buried alive.
在坟墓里待了大约半个小时后——我的意思是，我不知道我会在里面待多久——我复活了，从坟墓里被抬了出来…… And after being in the grave for about half an hour - I mean, I didn't know how long I'd be in there - I was resurrected, lifted out of the grave...
摘下眼罩，在田野里奔跑。 blindfold taken off, and run through these fields.
我们围成一圈，听着音乐，喝着热酒……大家一直跳到天亮。 And we came to a great circle of fire, with music and hot wine... and everyone danced until dawn.
黎明时分……我们尽了最大的努力，把坟墓填满了……回到了纽约 And then at dawn... to the best of our ability, we filled up the graves... and went back to New York.
那是最后一次大型活动。我是说，这就是结局。 And that was really the last big event. I mean, that was the end.
我是说，我开始意识到…我只是不想再做这些事了，你知道吗? I mean, you know, I began to realize... I just didn't want to do these things anymore, you know?
我觉得有点平静，你知道，就像《白鲸记》的那一章……风从帆上消失的地方。 I felt sort of becalmed, you know, like that chapter in Moby Dick... where the wind goes out of the sails.
去年冬天，我没怎么想……我去见了我认识的经纪人，告诉他我有兴趣再次执导戏剧。 And then last winter, without, uh, thinking about it very much... I went to see this agent I know to tell him I was interested in directing plays again.
事实上，他似乎有点惊讶……看看瑞普·凡·温克尔还活着 Actually, he seemed a little surprised... to see that Rip van Winkle was still alive.
嗯。 Mmm.
神。 God.
我不知道它们这么小。 I didn't know they were so small.
嗯，你知道，坦白地说……如果你真想知道的话，我对整个故事有点反感。 Well, you know, frankly... I'm sort of repelled by the whole story, if you really want to know.
——什么?-你知道吗-我以为我是谁 - What? - Ah, you know - Who did I think I was, you know?
我是说，这是一个被宠坏的公主的故事。 I mean, that's the story of some kind of spoiled princess, you know.
我以为我是谁，伊朗国王吗? Who did I think I was, the Shah of Iran?
我真想知道像我这样的人是不是真的不是阿尔伯特·斯皮尔，沃利。 You know, I really wonder if people such as myself are really not Albert Speer, Wally.
-希特勒的建筑师阿尔伯特·斯皮尔?——什么? - You know, Hitler's architect, Albert Speer? - What?
不，我最近一直在想他因为，我觉得我就是斯皮尔。 No, I've been thinking a lot about him recently because, uh, I think I am Speer.
我觉得是时候把我抓起来像他那样受审了。 And I think it's time that I was caught and tried the way he was.
你在说什么? What are you talking about?
嗯，你知道，他是个很有教养的人，一个建筑师，一个艺术家，你知道……所以他认为普通的生活规则对他也不适用。 Well, you know, he was a very cultivated man, an architect, an artist, you know... so he thought the ordinary rules of life didn't apply to him either.
我是说，我真的觉得我所做的一切…非常可怕，非常可怕。 I mean, I really feel that everything I've done... is horrific, just horrific.
我的上帝。但是为什么呢? My God. But why?
你看-你看，我在过去几年里见过很多人死亡，沃利…关于死亡有一件事是肯定的-你自己去做，明白吗你看，这似乎很确定。 You see - You see, I've seen a lot of death in the last few years, Wally... and there's one thing that's for sure about death - You do it alone, you see. That seems quite certain, you see.
我看过。你床边的人毫无意义。 That I've seen. That the people around your bed mean nothing.
你的评论毫无意义。不管是什么，你自己去做。 Your reviews mean nothing. Whatever it is, you do it alone.
所以问题是，当我临终的时候，我会成为一个什么样的人? And so the question is, when I get on my deathbed, what kind of a person am I gonna be?
我只是很怀疑什么样的人会过他的生活…在过去的几年里 And I'm just very dubious about the kind of person who would have lived his life... those last few years the way I did.
你为什么要这么想? Why should you feel that way?
你看，我这几个月过得很艰难，沃利。 You see, I've had a very rough time in the last few months, Wally.
我家里三个不同的人同时在医院。 Three different people in my family were in the hospital at the same time.
后来我母亲去世了。 Then my mother died.
然后玛丽娜的背有点问题，我们非常担心她。 Then Marina had something wrong with her back, and we were terribly worried about her.
你知道，所以，我是说，我现在感觉很难受。 You know, so - so, I mean, I'm feeling very raw right now.
我是说，我是说，我睡不着，我神经紧张。 I mean, uh - I mean, I can't sleep, my nerves are shot.
我的意思是，我被一切所影响。 I mean, I'm affected by everything.
你知道吗，上周我请了一位很好的挪威导演来我家吃饭……他是我认识多年的人…我觉得我挺喜欢他的 You know, la-last week I had this really nice director from Norway over for dinner... and he's someone I've known for years and years... and he's somebody that I think I'm quite fond of.
我坐在那里，只是觉得他是一个自大的，防御性的…只对戏剧感兴趣的保守自大狂。 And I was sitting there just thinking that he was a pompous, defensive... conservative stuffed shirt who was only interested in the theater.
他说了又说。他的母亲曾是挪威著名的喜剧演员。 He was talking and talking. His mother had been a famous Norwegian comedienne.
我意识到他在晚上至少说了400遍“我记得我的母亲”。 I realized he had said “I remember my mother” at least 400 times during the evening.
他讲了一个又一个关于他母亲的故事。 And he was telling story after story about his mother.
你知道吗，这些故事我都听过二十遍了。 You know, I'd heard these stories 20 times in the past.
他静静地喝了一整瓶波旁威士忌。 He was drinking this whole bottle of bourbon very quietly.
他的笑声太可怕了。 His laugh was so horrible.
你知道，我能听到他的笑声，笑声中的痛苦，空洞。 You know, I could hear his laugh - the pain in that laugh, the hollowness.
你知道，作为那个女人的儿子对他做了什么。 You know, what being that woman's son had done to him.
你知道，在某种程度上，我不得不请他离开，很友好地，你知道。 You know, so at a certain point I just had to ask him to leave - nicely, you know.
我告诉他我第二天要早起，因为这太可怕了。 I told him I had to get up early the next morning, 'cause it was so horrible.
他就像死在我的客厅里一样。 It was just as if he had died in my living room.
然后我走进浴室哭了，因为我觉得我失去了一个朋友。 You know, then I went into the bathroom and cried 'cause I felt I'd lost a friend.
他走后，我打开了电视有个家伙刚刚赢得了大奖。 And then after he'd gone, I turned the television on... and there was this guy who had just won the something-something.
某种体育赛事，某种大额支票，某种巨大的银瓶。 Some sports event - some kind of a great big check and some kind of huge silver bottle.
他，你知道的，他不能把支票塞进瓶子里……他把瓶子放在鼻子前面，假装那是他的脸。 And he, you know - he couldn't stuff the check in the bottle... and he put the bottle in front of his nose and pretended it was his face.
他根本没在听面试他的人说话。但他正在对他的朋友们恶意地微笑，我看着那个人，我想…… He wasn't really listening to the guy who was interviewing him... but he was smiling malevolently at his friends, and I looked at that guy and I thought...
“多么可怕、空虚、操纵欲强的老鼠啊。” “What a horrible, empty, manipulative rat.”
然后我想"那家伙就是我" Then I thought, “That guy is me.”
昨晚是我们结婚20周年纪念日……我带奇基塔去看了比莉·哈乐黛的节目 Then last night actually, you know, it was our 20th wedding anniversary... and I took Chiquita to see this show about Billie Holiday.
我看过这些演艺圈的人他们对比莉·哈乐黛一无所知。 I looked at these show business people who know nothing about Billie Holiday, nothing.
你看，在某种程度上，他们真的是一群智力怪人。 You see, they were really kind of, in a way, intellectual creeps.
我突然有了这种感觉。我是说，你知道的，我就坐在那里，整个节目的大部分时间我都在哭。 And I suddenly had this feeling. I mean, you know, I was just sitting there, crying through most of the show.
我突然觉得自己和他们一样令人毛骨悚然……我的一生都是一场骗局我也没有勇气成为比莉·哈乐黛 And I suddenly had this feeling I was just as creepy as they were... and that my whole life had been a sham... and I didn't have the guts to be Billie Holiday either.
我是说，我真的觉得自己筋疲力尽了。 I mean, I really feel that I'm just washed up, wiped out.
我觉得我浪费了我的生命。 I feel I've just squandered my life.
André，你怎么能这么说呢? André, now, how can you say something like that?
我的意思是, I mean -
你知道吗，我现在可能很情绪化，沃利…但自从我回到家，我就一直在寻找我们生活的世界……越来越令人不安。 Well, you know, I may be in a very emotional state right now, Wally... but since I've come back home I've just been finding the world we're living in... more and more upsetting.
我是说，上周的一个下午，我去了公共剧院。 I mean, last week I went down to the Public: Theater one afternoon.
你知道，当我走进来的时候，我跟每个人都打了招呼……因为我认识他们，他们也都认识我，他们总是很友好。 You know, when I walked in, I said hello to everybody... 'cause I know them all, and they all know me, they're always very friendly.
你知道有七八个人对我说我看起来很漂亮吗? You know that seven or eight people told me how wonderful I looked?
然后有一个负责选角办公室的女人说…“哎呀，你看起来糟透了。Ls错了?” And then one person - one - a woman who runs the casting office, said... “Gee, you look horrible. Ls something wrong?”
现在，她-你知道，我们开始交谈。当然，我开始告诉她一些事情。 Now, she - You know, we started talking. Of course, I started telling her things.
她突然哭了起来，因为她80岁的阿姨……她很喜欢的那个人，因为白内障进了医院，现在已经好了。 And she suddenly burst into tears because an aunt of hers who's 80... whom she's very fond of, went into the hospital for a cataract, which was solved.
但是护士太粗心了，她没有把床栏杆竖起来…就这样，姑妈从床上掉了下来，现在完全成了跛子。 But the nurse was so sloppy, she didn't put the bed rails up... and so the aunt fell out of bed and is now a complete cripple.
我们在讨论医院的事。 So you know, we were talking about hospitals.
现在，你知道，这个女人，因为她的身份-你知道，因为这是最近发生在她身上的。 Now, you know, this woman, because of who she is - You know, 'cause this had happened to her very, very recently.
-她可以完全清楚地看到我。——嗯。 - She could see me with complete clarity. - Uh-huh.
她对我所经历的一切一无所知。 She didn't know anything about what I'd been going through.
但是其他人，他们看到的是这个晒黑的皮肤，或者这件衬衫……或者这件衬衫和晒黑的肤色很搭。 But the other people, what they saw was this tan, or this shirt... or the fact that the shirt goes well with the tan.
他们说，“哇，你看起来棒极了。” So they said, “Gee, you look wonderful.”
现在，他们生活在一个疯狂的梦幻世界里。 Now, they're living in an insane dreamworld.
他们不寻找。我觉得这很奇怪。 They're not looking. That seems very strange to me.
对，因为他们什么都没看到……除了一些他们想看的小东西。 Right, because they just didn't see anything, somehow... except, uh, the few little things that they wanted to see.
是啊，就像我母亲去世前发生的那样。 Yeah, you know, it's like what happened just before my mother died.
我们去医院看我妈妈我进去看她我看到这个女人看起来和奥斯维辛或达豪集中营的幸存者一样糟糕。 You know, we'd gone to the hospital to see my mother... and I went in to see her... and I saw this woman who looked as bad as any survivor of Auschwitz or Dachau.
我当时在大厅里安慰我父亲……当一名专家医生在她的手臂上遇到问题时……进了她的房间，然后笑着出来。 And I was out in the hall sort of comforting my father... when a doctor who was a specialist in a problem she had with her arm... went into her room and came out just beaming.
他说，“孩子，我们不是有很多理由感觉很棒吗? And he said, “Boy, don't we have a lot of reason to feel great?
她现在的状况是不是很奇妙?” Isn't it wonderful how she's coming along?”
现在，他只看到了那只胳膊。这就是他所看到的。 Now, all he saw was the arm. That's all he saw.
现在，这是另一个存在于梦中的人。 Now, here's another person who's existing in a dream.
最重要的是，他是个屠夫…他犯下了家族谋杀…因为当他从房间里出来的时候，他会从精神上杀死我们带我们进入一个梦幻的世界… Who, on top of that, is a kind of butcher... who's committing a kind of familial murder... because when he comes out of that room, he psychically kills us... by taking us into a dream world...
在那里我们变得困惑和害怕……因为就在刚才，我们看到一个看起来已经死了的人…现在来了一位专家，他告诉我们它们的形状很好。 where we become confused and frightened... 'cause the moment before, we saw somebody who already looked dead... and now here comes a specialist who tells us they're in wonderful shape.
我是说，他们简直要把我父亲逼疯了。 I mean, they were literally driving my father crazy.
我的意思是，你知道，这是一个82岁的男人，他非常情绪化…你知道，如果你在某一刻走过去，看到那个人快要死了…… I mean, you know, here's an 82-year-old man who's very emotional... and you know, and if you go in one moment, and you see the person's dying...
你不希望他们死，然后医生五分钟后就出来了……告诉你他们的身材很好——我的意思是，你知道，你可能会疯掉。 and you don't want them to die, and then a doctor comes out five minutes later... and tells you they're in wonderful shape - I mean, you know, you can go crazy.
-是的。我明白你的意思。-我是说，医生没去看我妈妈。 - Yeah. I know what you mean. - I mean, the doctor didn't see my mother.
公共剧院的人没看见我。 The people at the Public Theater didn't see me.
我是说，我们只是在雾中行走。 I mean, we're just walking around in some kind of fog.
我想我们都在发呆。我们像僵尸一样走来走去。 I think we're all in a trance. We're walking around like zombies.
我不认为我们甚至意识不到我们自己以及我们对事物的反应。 I don't - I don't think we're even aware of ourselves or our own reaction to things.
我们——我们就像无意识的机器一样整天四处走动……与此同时，所有这些愤怒、担忧和不安……在我们的内心不断积累。 We - We're just going around all day like unconscious machines... and meanwhile there's all of this rage and worry and uneasiness... just building up and building up inside us.
这是正确的。它就这样堆积起来，呃…然后它就不合时宜地跳出来了。 That's right. It just builds up, uh... and then it just leaps out inappropriately.
我是说，我记得当我在演这出戏的时候…根据布尔加科夫的《大师与玛格丽特》改编。 I mean, I remember when I was, uh, acting in this play... based on The Master and Margarita by Bulgakov.
我扮演的是猫的角色。 And I was playing the part of the cat.
但他们在给我做猫服时遇到了麻烦所以直到第一场演出的那晚才有人把它送到我手中。 But they had trouble, uh, making up my cat suit... so I didn't get it delivered to me till the night of the first performance.
尤其是头部——我的意思是，我甚至没有机会试一下。 Particularly the head - I mean, I'd never even had a chance to try it on.
大约有四位演员同行走上前来……他们说的这些话让我忍不住去想……都试图摧毁我。 And about four of my fellow actors actually came up to me... and they said these things which I just couldn't help thinking... were attempts to destroy me.
你知道，其中一个说，嗯，“哦，好吧，现在那个头…会完全改变你在表演中的听力。 You know, one of them said, uh, “Oh, well, now that head... “will totally change your hearing in the performance.
“你听到的可能完全不同……这可能会让人非常沮丧。 “You may hear everything completely differently... “and it may be very upsetting.
“有一次我在表演时戴了耳套……我什么也听不见。” “Now, I was once in a performance where I was wearing earmuffs... and I couldn't hear anything anybody said.”
然后另一个说:“哦，你知道，每当我在舞台上戴上帽子……我快要晕过去了。” And then another one said, “Oh, you know, whenever I wear even a hat on stage... I tend to faint.”
我是说，那些话充满了敌意……因为，我的意思是，如果我听了那些人的话，我就会走上舞台…… I mean, those remarks were just full of hostility... because, I mean, if I'd listened to those people, I would have gone out there on stage...
我就什么都听不见了，我就会晕倒。 and I wouldn't have been able to hear anything, and I would have fainted.
但是这种敌意是完全不恰当的。因为，事实上，那些人喜欢我。 But the hostility was completely inappropriate... because, in fact, those people liked me.
我的意思是，那种敌意只是一种感觉，你知道……以前的经验留下的。 I mean, that hostility was just some feeling that was, you know... left over from some previous experience.
因为在我们今天的社会存在中……我们只被允许表达我们的感情，呃…奇怪的和间接的。 Because somehow in our social existence today... we're only allowed to express our feelings, uh... weirdly and indirectly.
如果你直接表达出来，每个人都会疯掉。 If you express them directly, everybody goes crazy.
那些人对你说的话你有表达自己的感受吗? Well, did you express your feelings about what those people said to you?
不。我是说，我都不知道自己是什么感觉直到后来我想了想。 No. I mean, I didn't even know what I felt till I thought about it later.
我的意思是，在那种情况下，最多……即使我知道我的感受如果我真的很生气，我可能会说些什么…… And I mean, at the most, you know, in a situation like that, uh... even if I had known what I felt... I might say something, if I'm really annoyed...
就像，嗯，“哦，是的。好吧，那真是太奇妙了……嗯，我今晚可能会晕倒，就像你一样。” like, uh, “Oh, yeah. Well, that's just fascinating... and, uh, I probably will faint tonight, just as you did.”
我自己也是这么做的。 I do just the same thing myself.
我们不能直接说，所以我们会说一些最奇怪的事情。 We can't be direct, so we end up saying the weirdest things.
我记得有一晚。那是我母亲去世后的几个星期。 I mean, I remember a night. It was a couple of weeks after my mother died.
我当时状态很差。 And I was in pretty bad shape.
我和三个相对亲密的朋友共进晚餐……其中两个跟我母亲很熟……他们三个都认识我很多年了。 And I had dinner with three relatively close friends... two of whom had known my mother quite well... and all three of whom had known me for years.
你知道我们熬过了整个晚上，我都没能……我并不想坐下来度过这个沉闷的夜晚…… You know that we went through that entire evening without my being able to... for a moment, get anywhere near what- Not that I wanted to sit and have this dreary evening...
我讲述了我所经历的所有痛苦和一切。 in which I was talking about all this pain that I was going through and everything.
真的，一点也不。 Really, not at all.
但事实上，没人能说……“天啊，你妈妈真可惜”或者“你感觉怎么样?” But the fact that nobody could say... “Gee, what a shame about your mother” or “How are you feeling?”
就像什么都没发生过一样。他们都在讲这些笑话，笑着。 It was just as if nothing had happened. They were all making these jokes and laughing.
事实上，我都快疯了。 I got quite crazy, as a matter of fact.
其中一人提到了一个我不太喜欢的人。我开始尖叫，说他是怎么在布朗克斯河被发现的…… One of these people mentioned a certain man whom I don't like very much... and I started screeching about how he had just been found in the Bronx River...
他的阴茎因为淋病，以及各种疯狂的事情而消失了。 and his penis had dropped off from gonorrhea, and all kinds of insane things.
后来，当我回到家，我意识到我太想打破这坚冰了。 And later, when I got home, I realized I'd just been desperate to break through this ice.
是的。 Yeah.
我是说，你知道吗，沃利，如果你把这种情况带到一个西藏人的家里-那就太离谱了。我是说，他们不会理解的。 I mean, do you realize, Wally, if you brought that situation into a Tibetan home - That'd be just so far out. I mean, they wouldn't be able to understand it.
那就太奇怪了，沃利。 That would be simply - simply so weird, Wally.
如果四个藏人聚在一起，其中一个发生了悲剧……他们整个晚上都在——我的意思是，西藏人会看那个…… If four Tibetans came together, and tragedy had just struck one of the ones... and they spent the whole evening going - I mean, you know, Tibetans would have looked at that...
并认为这是最难以想象的行为。 and would have thought that was the most unimaginable behavior.
-但对我们来说，这是常见的行为。——嗯。 - But for us, that's common behavior. - Mm-hmm.
我的意思是，真的，非洲人可能会把他们的矛刺进我们四个…因为那会把他们逼疯的 I mean, really, the - the Africans would have probably put their spears into all four of us... 'cause it would have driven them crazy.
他们会认为我们是危险的动物或类似的东西。 They would have thought we were dangerous animals or something like that.
——正确的。-我是说，这绝对是不正常的行为。 - Right. - I mean, that's absolutely abnormal behavior.
先生们，一切都好吗? Is everything all right, gentlemen?
——太棒了。-是的。 - Great. - Yeah.
但那是我们典型的夜晚。 But those are typical evenings for us.
我是说，我们经常参加这样的晚宴和派对。 I mean, we go to dinners and parties like that all the time.
这些夜晚就像一场病态的梦……因为人们用符号说话。 These evenings are really like sort of sickly dreams... because people are talking in symbols.
每个人都漂浮在象征和无意识感觉的迷雾中。 Everyone is sort of floating through this fog of symbols and unconscious feelings.
没人会说出自己真正的想法。 No one says what they're really thinking about.
然后人们就会开始开玩笑，这些玩笑其实是某种秘密代码。 Then people will start making these jokes that are really some sort of secret code.
正确的。嗯，在这些晚上通常会发生什么……这些疯狂的小幻想会开始被玩弄，你知道… Right. Well, what often happens in some of these evenings... is that these really crazy little fantasies will just start being played with, you know...
每个人都会同时说话，说……“嘿，如果弗兰克·辛纳特拉和尼克松夫人……是在这样那样的情况下吗?” and everyone will be talking at once and sort of saying... “Hey, wouldn't it be great if Frank Sinatra and Mrs. Nixon and blah-blah-blah... were in such and such a situation?”
你知道，总是和名人在一起，而且总是有点怪异。 You know, always with famous people, and always sort of grotesque.
或者人们会谈论一些可怕的事情……比如跟泰德·肯尼迪一起死在车里的那个女孩…他们只会放声大笑。 Or people will be talking about some horrible thing... like - like, uh, the death of that girl in the car with Ted Kennedy... and they'll just be roaring with laughter.
我的意思是，这真的很神奇。这简直是不可思议的。 I mean, it's really amazing. It's just unbelievable.
这是表达任何事物的唯一方式，通过这些完全疯狂的笑话。 That's the only way anything is expressed, through these completely insane jokes.
我想这就是为什么我总是搞不懂派对上发生了什么。 I mean, I think that's why I never understand what's going on at a party.
我总是完全困惑。 I'm always completely confused.
你知道吗，黛比曾经说过，在纽约的某个夜晚之后…她以为她走了很远的路……她从芝加哥郊区的老家出发 You know, uh, Debby once said, after one of these New York evenings... she thought she'd traveled a greater distance... just by journeying from her origins in the suburbs of Chicago...
去纽约的那个晚上比她祖母旅行过的还多从俄罗斯大草原到芝加哥郊区 to that New York evening... than her grandmother had traveled in, uh, making her way... from the steppes of Russia to the suburbs of Chicago.
我认为这是对的。 I think that's right.
你知道，也许——也许，沃利，其中一个原因……我们不知道发生了什么我们参加派对的时候，都忙着表演。 You know, it may - it may be, Wally, that one of the reasons... that we don't know what's going on... is that when we're there at a party, we're all too busy performing.
啊哈。 Uh-huh.
这也是格罗托斯基放弃剧院的原因之一。 That was one of the reasons that, uh, Grotowski gave up the theater.
他只是觉得现在生活中的人们表现得太好了……剧院里的那场表演有点多余。而且，在某种程度上，是淫秽的。 He just felt that people in their lives now were performing so well... that performance in the theater was sort of superfluous... and, in a way, obscene.
嗯。 Huh.
医生经常…能达到我们对医生的期望吗? Isn't it amazing how often a doctor... will live up to our expectation of how a doctor should look?
当你在电视上看到一个恐怖分子，他看起来就像一个恐怖分子。 When you see a terrorist on television, he looks just like a terrorist.
我是说，我们生活在一个父亲…或单身人士，或艺术家……都在努力实现某人的幻想… I mean, we live in a world in which fathers... or single people, or artists... are all trying to live up to someone's fantasy...
一个父亲，一个人，或者一个艺术家应该是什么样的。 of how a father, or a single person, or an artist should look and behave.
他们都表现得好像很清楚自己该怎么做。在每一个时刻……他们看起来都很自信。 They all act as if they know exactly how they ought to conduct themselves... at every single moment... and they all seem totally self-confident.
当然，私下里，人们对自己非常困惑。 Of course, privately people are very mixed up about themselves.
是的。 Yeah.
他们不知道自己的人生该做些什么。 They don't know what they should be doing with their lives.
-他们都在看自助书籍。-哦,上帝! - They're reading all these self-help books. - Oh, God!
我是说，那些书太感人了，因为它们展示了……我们是多么渴望知道其他人是如何……在生活中取得了进步… I mean, those books are just so touching, because they show... how desperately curious we all are to know how all the others of us... are really getting on in life...
尽管如此，通过一直扮演这些角色……我们只是在隐藏自己的真实面目。 even though, by performing these roles all the time... we're just hiding the reality of ourselves from everybody else.
我是说，我们生活在对彼此如此荒谬的无知之中。 I mean, we live in such ludicrous ignorance of each other.
我们通常不知道我们想知道的事情。甚至是我们最亲密的朋友。 We usually don't know the things we'd like to know... even about our supposedly closest friends.
我是说——我是说，你知道……假设你正在经历某种地狱般的生活。 I mean - I mean, you know... suppose you're going through some kind of hell in your own life.
嗯，你想知道你的朋友是否经历过类似的事情。 Well, you would love to know if your friends have experienced similar things.
但我们只是不敢问对方。 But we just don't dare to ask each other.
不。这就像让你的朋友放弃他的角色。 No. It would be like asking your friend to drop his role.
我的意思是，我们根本不重视感知现实。 I mean, we just put no value at all on perceiving reality.
我的意思是，恰恰相反，我们现在所强调的令人难以置信的重点……在我们所谓的事业上…自动地使感知现实成为一个非常低的优先级…… I mean, on the contrary, this incredible emphasis that we all place now... on our so-called careers... automatically makes perceiving reality a very low priority...
因为如果你的生活是围绕着事业成功而安排的……你的感知和经历并不重要。 because if your life is organized around trying to be successful in a career... well, it just doesn't matter what you perceive or what you experience.
在某种程度上，你真的可以在未来几年关闭你的大脑。 You can really sort of shut your mind off for years ahead, in a way.
你可以打开自动驾驶仪。 You can sort of turn on the automatic pilot.
你知道，就像你妈妈的医生用自动驾驶仪…当他进去看那只胳膊的时候…他完全没有察觉到其他任何东西。 You know, just the way your mother's doctor had on his automatic pilot... when he went in and he looked at the arm... and he totally failed to perceive anything else.
这是正确的。我们的——我们的思想只是专注于这些目标和计划……它们本身并不是现实。 That's right. Our - Our minds are just focused on these goals and plans... which in themselves are not reality.
不。目标和计划不是——我的意思是，它们是——它们是幻想。他们是梦想生活的一部分。 No. Goals and plans are not- I mean, they're - they're fantasy. They're part of a dream life.
我的意思是，你知道，它总是看起来很可笑，不知怎么的……每个人都有自己的小目标。 I mean, you know, it always just does seem so ridiculous, somehow... that everybody has to have his little - his little goal in life.
我的意思是，在某种程度上，这太荒谬了，当你考虑到是哪一个并不重要。 I mean, it's so absurd, in a way, when you consider that it doesn't matter which one it is.
正确的。因为人们的注意力都集中在自己的目标上……在他们的生活中，他们只是习惯地过着每一刻。 Right. And because people's concentration is on their goals... in their life they just live each moment by habit.
真的，就像挪威人一遍又一遍地讲同一个故事。 Really, like the Norwegian telling the same stories over and over again.
——嗯。-生活变成习惯。 - Mm-hmm. - Life becomes habitual.
今天就是这样。 And it is today.
我的意思是，现在很少有事情能像那一刻那样发生……当马龙·白兰度派那个印度女人去领奖时……一切都失控了。 I mean, very few things happen now like that moment... when Marlon Brando sent the Indian woman to accept the Oscar... and everything went haywire.
现在事情很少失控了。 Things just very rarely go haywire now.
如果你只是习惯行事……那你就不是真正地活着。 And if you're just operating by habit... then you're not really living.
我的意思是，你知道，在梵文中，动词“to be”的词根……和“成长”或“使成长”是一样的。 I mean, you know, in Sanskrit, the root of the verb “to be”... is the same as “to grow” or “to make grow.”
嗯。 Huh.
-你知道洛克吗?——嗯? - Do you know about Roc? - Hmm'?
哦,好吧。 Oh, well.
洛克是个了不起的人。 Roc was a wonderful man.
他是芬德宏公司的创始人之一他是苏格兰最伟大的数学家之一他是本世纪最伟大的数学家之一。 He was one of the founders of Findhorn... and he was one of Scotland's - well, he was Scotland's greatest mathematician... and he was one of the century's great mathematicians.
他引以为傲的是他没有幻想的生活，没有梦想的生活——没有想象的生活——没有什么能阻挡他对数学的直接感知。 And he prided himself on the fact that he had no fantasy life, no dream life - nothing to stand be - no imaginary life - nothing to stand between him and the direct perception of mathematics.
在他50多岁的时候，有一天他在爱丁堡的花园里散步……他看到了一个农牧之神。 And one day when he was in his mid-50s, he was walking in the gardens of Edinburgh... and he saw a faun.
农牧之神非常惊讶，因为农牧之神总是能看见人……但你知道，很少有人见过它们。 The faun was very surprised because fauns have always been able to see people... but you know, very few people ever see them.
就是那些想象中的小生物。 You know, uh, those little imaginary creatures.
-不是鹿。——哦。 - Not a deer. - Oh.
-你叫他们农牧之神，是吗?-我以为小鹿是小鹿。 - You call them fauns, don't you? - I thought a fawn was a baby deer.
是啊，有只鹿叫小鹿，但这些就像那些小想象。-哦!就是德彪西那种? -是的。正确的。 Yeah, well, there's a deer that's called a fawn, but these are like those little imagi - - Oh! The kind that Debussy - - Yes. Right.
于是他认识了农牧之神，也认识了其他的农牧之神……然后一系列的对话开始了……每天下午会有越来越多的农牧之神出来迎接他。 Well, so he got to know the faun, and he got to know other fauns... and a series of conversations began... and more and more fauns would come out every afternoon to meet him.
他会和农牧之神交谈。 And he'd have talks with the fauns.
然后有一天，过了一段时间，当他们真正了解他的时候……他们问他是否愿意见见潘……因为潘想见见他。 Then one day, after a while, when, you know, they'd really gotten to know him... they asked him if he would like to meet Pan... because Pan would like to meet him.
当然，潘害怕吓到他……因为他知道基督教的误解把潘描绘成一个邪恶的生物，其实他不是。 And of course, Pan was afraid of terrifying him... because he knew of the Christian misconception... which portrayed Pan as an evil creature, which he's not.
但洛克说他想见见潘，于是他们就见面了……潘间接地把他送上了旅途……在这本书中，他遇到了其他开始创作芬德霍恩的人。 But Roc said he would love to meet Pan, and so they met... and Pan indirectly sent him on his way on a journey... in which he met the other people who began Findhorn.
但洛克过去经常做某些练习——比如，嗯，比如，如果他是右撇子……今天他做任何事都要用左手。 But Roc used to practice certain exercises - like, uh, for instance, if he were right-handed... all today he would do everything with his left hand.
整天——吃饭，写作，做一切——开门……为了打破生活的习惯。 All day - eating, writing, everything - opening doors... in order to break the habits of living.
因为对他来说，巨大的危险……是出于习惯，陷入恍惚状态。 Because the great danger, he felt, for him... was to fall into a trance, out of habit.
他发明了一系列非常简单的练习。只是为了继续看，感受，回忆。 He had a whole series of very simple exercises that he had invented... just to keep seeing, feeling, remembering.
因为你现在必须学习。 Because you have to learn now.
这在过去是没有必要的，但今天你必须学会一些东西……比如，你真的饿了吗?还是你只是在吃东西-因为这是你的习惯? It didn't used to be necessary, but today you have to learn something... like, uh, are you really hungry... or are you just stuffing your face - Because that's what you do, out of habit?
我的意思是，你负担得起，所以你就去做……不管你饿不饿。 I mean, you can afford to do it, so you do it... whether you're hungry or not.
你知道，如果你去佛教冥想中心…它们让你品尝每一口食物……所以吃午饭要花两个小时，太可怕了。 You know, if you go to the Buddhist Meditation Center... they make you taste each bite of your food... so it takes two hours - it's horrible - to eat your lunch.
但你意识到食物的味道。 But you're conscious of the taste of your food.
如果你只是出于习惯而吃，那么你不会去品尝食物……你没有意识到发生在你身上的现实。 If you're just eating out of habit, then you don't taste the food... and you're not conscious of the reality of what's happening to you.
你再次进入梦境世界。 You enter the dream world again.
现在，你认为也许我们生活在这个梦想的世界…因为我们每天都在做很多影响我们的事情…我们只是没有意识到吗? Now, do you think maybe we live in this dream world... because we do so many things every day that affect us in ways... that somehow we're just not aware of?
我是说，你知道，我在想，嗯，去年圣诞节…黛比和我得到了一条电热毯。 I mean, you know, I was thinking, urn, last Christmas... Debby and I were given an electric blanket.
我可以告诉你，这是一个了不起的进步……我们过去的生活方式，这太棒了。 I can tell you that it is just such a marvelous advance... over our old way of life, and it is just great.
但是，呃，这和没有电热毯是完全不同的……我有时会想，它对我做了什么? But, uh, it is quite different from not having an electric blanket... and I sometimes sort of wonder, well, what is it doing to me?
我是说，我感觉，我睡得不太好。 I mean, I sort of feel, uh, I'm not sleeping quite in the same way.
不，你不会。 No, you wouldn't be.
我的意思是，嗯，我的梦想有点不同……当我早上起来的时候，我感觉有点不一样。 I mean, uh, and my dreams are sort of different... and I feel a little bit different when I get up in the morning.
我什么都不会穿电热毯的。 I wouldn't put an electric blanket on for anything.
首先，我会担心自己会触电身亡。不，我不相信科技。 First, I'd be worried I might get electrocuted. No, I don't trust technology.
但我的意思是，最主要的是，沃利，我认为那种安慰……只是以一种非常直接的方式将你与现实隔开。 But I mean, the main thing, Wally, is that I think that that kind of comfort... just separates you from reality in a very direct way.
-你是说-我是说，如果你没有电热毯…你的公寓很冷，你需要再盖一条毯子…… - You mean - - I mean, if you don't have that electric blanket... and your apartment is cold and you need to put on another blanket...
或者走进壁橱，把外套堆在毯子上……那你就知道这很冷。 or go into the closet and pile up coats on top of the blankets you have... well, then you know it's cold.
这就建立了事物之间的联系。 And that sets up a link of things.
你对人有同情心-你旁边的人冷吗? You have compassion for the per - Well, is the person next to you cold?
世界上还有其他人是冷漠的吗? Are there other people in the world who are cold?
多么寒冷的夜晚啊!我喜欢寒冷。 What a cold night! I like the cold.
我的天，我从来没有意识到。我不想要毯子。寒冷很有趣。 My God, I never realized. I don't want a blanket. It's fun being cold.
因为很冷，我可以依偎着你。 I can snuggle up against you even more because it's cold.
你会想到各种各样的事情。 All sorts of things occur to you.
打开电热毯，就像吃了镇定剂……或者就像因为看电视而被切除了脑叶。 Turn on that electric blanket, and it's like taking a tranquilizer... or it's like being lobotomized by watching television.
我想你又进入梦境了。 I think you enter the dream world again.
我的意思是，它对我们有什么影响，沃利，生活在一个环境中…在那里，像季节、冬天、寒冷这样巨大的东西……不会影响到我们吗? I mean, what does it do to us, Wally, living in an environment... where something as massive as the seasons, or winter, or cold... don't in any way affect us?
我的意思是，我们毕竟是动物。 I mean, we're animals, after all.
我是说，这意味着什么? I mean, what does that mean?
我认为这意味着我们不能生活在阳光下…还有月亮、天空和星星……我们生活在自己创造的幻想世界里。 I think that means that instead of living under the sun... and the moon and the sky and the stars... we're living in a fantasy world of our own making.
是的，但我的意思是，我永远不会放弃我的电热毯André。 Yeah, but I mean, I would never give up my electric blanket, André.
我是说，因为纽约的冬天很冷。 I mean, because New York is cold in the winter.
我是说，我们的公寓很冷。这是一个艰难的环境。 I mean, our apartment is cold. It's a difficult environment.
我们的生活已经够艰难的了。 I mean, our lives are tough enough as it is.
我并不是想要摆脱那些能让人放松和舒适的东西。 I'm not looking for ways to get rid of the few things that provide relief and comfort.
我的意思是，恰恰相反，我想要更多的舒适……因为，这个世界很粗糙。 I mean, on the contrary, I'm looking for more comfort... because, uh, the world is very abrasive.
我是说，我想保护自己…因为，真的，到处都要避免磨擦。 I mean, uh, I'm trying to protect myself... because, really, there are these abrasive beatings to be avoided everywhere you look.
但是，沃利，你难道——难道你不知道舒适是危险的吗? But, Wally, don't you - don't you see that comfort can be dangerous?
我是说，你喜欢舒适，我也喜欢舒适……但舒适会让你陷入一种危险的平静。 I mean, you like to be comfortable, and I like to be comfortable too... but comfort can lull you into a dangerous tranquillity.
我是说，我母亲认识一个女人，哈特菲尔德夫人她是世界上最富有的女人之一…她饿死了，因为她只吃鸡肉。 I mean, my mother knew a woman, Lady Hatfield... who was one of the richest women in the world... and she died of starvation because all she would eat was chicken.
我是说，她只喜欢鸡肉，沃利，而且她只吃鸡肉。 I mean, she just liked chicken, Wally, and that was all she would eat.
事实上，她的身体正在挨饿，但她不知道……因为她吃鸡肉很开心，所以她最后死了。 And actually her body was starving, but she didn't know it... 'cause she was quite happy eating her chicken, and so she finally died.
我真的觉得我们现在都像哈特菲尔德夫人了。 See, I honestly believe that we're all like Lady Hatfield now.
我们正与电热毯和鸡肉度过一段美好舒适的时光……与此同时，我们在挨饿，因为我们与现实隔绝了…… We're having a lovely, comfortable time with our electric blankets and our chicken... and meanwhile we're starving because we're so cut off from contact with reality...
我们没有得到任何真正的食物，因为我们看不到这个世界。 that we're not getting any real sustenance, 'cause we don't see the world.
我们看不到自己。 We don't see ourselves.
我们看不到自己的行为会如何影响他人。 We don't see how our actions affect other people.
你读过马丁·布伯的《关于哈西德主义》吗? Have you read Martin Buber's book On Hasidism?
——没有。-这是一种人生观。 - No. - Well, here's a view of life.
我是说，他谈到了哈西德派犹太人的信仰……万物中都有灵魂。 I mean, he talks about the belief of the Hasidic Jews... that there are spirits chained in everything.
灵魂被束缚在你身上。灵魂被锁在我体内。 There are spirits chained in you. There are spirits chained in me.
有鬼魂被锁在这张桌子上。 Well, there are spirits chained in this table.
祈祷是解放这些被束缚的胚胎般的灵魂的行动…我们生活中的每一个行动…不管是做生意还是做爱… And that prayer is the action of liberating these enchained embryo-like spirits... and that every action of ours in life... whether it's, uh, doing business, or making love...
或者一起吃饭，或者其他什么——我们的每一个行动都应该是一种祈祷……世上的圣事。 or having dinner together, or whatever - that every action of ours should be a prayer... a sacrament in the world.
你觉得我们是这样生活的吗? Now, do you think we're living like that?
你觉得我们为什么不能那样生活? Why do you think we're not living like that?
我认为这是因为如果我们允许自己看看我们每天都在做什么……我们可能会觉得太恶心了。 I think it's because if we allowed ourselves to see what we do every day... we might just find it too nauseating.
我是说，我们对待别人的方式。 I mean, the way we treat other people.
你知道，每天，每天好几次，我走进我的公寓大楼。 You know, every day, several times a day, I walk into my apartment building.
门卫叫我格雷戈里先生，我叫他吉米。 The doorman calls me Mr. Gregory, and I call him Jimmy.
这两者的区别是什么?和拥有奴隶的南方种植园主? Already, what's the difference between that... and the Southern plantation owner who's got slaves?
你看，我认为谋杀是在那一刻发生的……当我走进那栋大楼时 You see, I think that an act of murder is committed in that moment... when I walk into that building.
因为这是一个有尊严、有智慧的男人——一个和我同龄的男人——当我叫他吉米时，他就变成了一个孩子，而我是一个成年人……因为我可以花钱进入大楼。 Because here's a dignified, intelligent man - a man of my own age - and when I call him Jimmy, then he becomes a child, and I'm an adult... because I can buy my way into the building.
正确的。这是正确的。 Right. That's right.
我是说，天啊，我当拉丁老师的时候…我的意思是，人们过去常常请我，我的意思是，你知道，如果我去一个派对……专业人士或文学界人士… I mean, my God, when I was a Latin teacher... I mean, people used to treat me - I mean, uh, you know, if I would go to a party... of professional or literary people...
我的意思是，我只是受到了，呃，最友好的对待…呃，像狗一样。 I mean, I was just treated, uh, in the nicest sense of the word... uh, like a dog.
换句话说，毫无疑问……我能在平等的基础上与人交谈。 I mean, in other words, there was no question... of my being able to participate on an equal basis in a conversation with people.
我的意思是，你知道，我偶尔会和人们交谈……但当他们问我做什么的时候这通常发生在五分钟后…你知道的，他们的脸 I mean, you know, I'd occasionally have conversations with people... but then, uh, when they asked what I did... which would always happen after about five minutes... uh, you know, their faces -
即使他们很享受谈话，或者他们在和我调情，或者别的什么，他们的脸上也会有那种表情，就像铁闸倒塌了一样。 Even if they were enjoying the conversation, or they were flirting with me, or whatever it was - their faces would just have that expression just like the portcullis crashing down.
你知道，那些中世纪的大门。他们会直接走开。 You know, those medieval gates. They would just walk away.
我的意思是，我真的活得像条狗。 I mean, I literally lived like a dog.
我是说，当黛比做秘书的时候，你知道…如果她告诉别人她做了什么，他们会发疯的。 And I mean, uh, when Debby was working as a secretary, you know... if she would tell people what she did, they would just go insane.
我是说，这就像她说，呃……"我最近在服无期徒刑，罪名是谋杀儿童" I mean, it would be just as if she'd said, uh... “Oh, well, I've been serving a life sentence recently, uh, for child murdering.”
我的意思是，天哪，你知道，当你谈论我们对别人的态度时……我是说，我想到自己…作为一个正派的好人，你知道… I mean, my God, you know, when you talk about our attitudes toward other people... I mean, I think of myself... as just a very decent, good person, you know...
就因为我觉得我还算友好…对我每天遇到的大多数人来说 just because I think I'm reasonably friendly... to most of the people I happen to meet every day.
我的意思是，我真的觉得自己很自鸣得意。 I mean, I really think of myself quite smugly.
我只是觉得我是个非常好的人，呃，你知道……只要我认为这个世界是由……只是我认识的一小群朋友… I just think I'm a perfectly nice guy, uh, you know... so long as I think of the world as consisting of, you know... just the small circle of the people that I know as friends...
或者是我们在这个小世界里认识的少数人，我们的小爱好——戏剧或其他什么东西。 or the few people that we know in this little world of our little hobbies - the theater or whatever it is.
我真的很满意。我对自己很满意。 And I'm really quite self-satisfied. I'm just quite happy with myself.
我对自己没什么可抱怨的。 I just have no complaint about myself.
我是说，让我们面对现实吧。 I mean, you know, let's face it.
我是说，外面有一个巨大的世界我从来没有想过。 I mean, there's a whole enormous world out there that I just don't ever think about.
我当然不会为我在那个世界的生活方式负责。 I certainly don't take responsibility for how I've lived in that world.
我的意思是，你知道，如果我真的要面对这个事实……我在这个舞台上分享的…和非洲某个地方那个饥饿的人… I mean, you know, if I were actually to sort of confront the fact... that I'm sort of sharing this stage... with-with-with this starving person in Africa somewhere...
我就不会这么自信了。 well, I wouldn't feel so great about myself.
所以很自然地，我就把这些人从我的认知中抹去了。 So naturally I just - I just blot all those people right out of my perception.
所以，当然——当然，我忽略了……整个真实世界的一部分。 So, of course - of course, I'm ignoring... a whole section of the real world.
但说实话，你知道……当我写一个剧本的时候，在某种程度上，我想我想要做的一件事……我试着让自己面对一些现实 But frankly, you know... when I write a play, in a way, one of the things I guess I think I'm trying to do... is I'm trying to bring myself up against some little bits of reality...
我想和观众分享我的感受 and I'm trying to share that, uh, with an audience.
我是说——我是说，我们当然都知道，呃……今天剧院的状况很糟。 I mean - I mean, of course we all know, uh... the theater is, uh, in terrible shape today.
我是说，我是说，至少几年前，真正关心戏剧的人……常说"剧院死了" I mean, uh - I mean, at least a few years ago people who really cared about the theater... used to say, “The theater is dead.”
现在每个人都用一种微不足道的方式重新定义了戏剧……我是说，我是说，天啊…我认识一些和剧院有关系的人他们现在去看电影 And now everybody's redefined the theater in such a trivial way... that, I mean - I mean, God... I know people who are involved with the theater who go to see things now that-
我是说，几年前这些人…哪怕只是看过其中的一些戏剧都会觉得很尴尬。 I mean, a few years ago these same people... would have just been embarrassed to have even seen some of these plays.
我的意思是，它们会缩小，你知道，只是因为害怕……这些事情的肤浅。 I mean, they would have just shrunk, you know, just in horror... at the superficiality of these things.
但现在他们说，“哦，那很好。” But now they say, “Oh, that was pretty good.”
就是不可思议的。 it's just incredible.
我真的觉得这种态度难以忍受……因为我真的认为戏剧可以做一些非常重要的事情。 And I really just find that attitude unbearable... because I really do think the theater can do something very important.
我的意思是，我确实认为戏剧可以让人们接触现实。 I mean, I do think the theater can help bring people in contact with reality.
现在，现在，你可能一点感觉都没有。你可能会觉得这很荒谬。 Now, now, you may not feel that at all. You may just find that totally absurd.
是啊，但沃利，你不觉得进退两难吗? Yeah, but, Wally, don't you see the dilemma?
你没有考虑到我们所处的时代。 You're not taking into account the period we're living in.
我是说，这当然是剧院应该做的。 I mean, of course that's what the theater should do.
我是说，我一直都有这种感觉。 I mean, I've always felt that.
你知道吗，当我还是个年轻导演的时候，我在耶鲁导演过《酒神》我的冲动，当潘修斯被他的母亲和复仇女神杀死时…… You know, when I was a young director, and I directed the Bacchae at Yale... my impulse, when Pentheus has been killed by his mother and the Furies...
他们把树拉回来，把他绑在树上…然后把他抛向空中，他穿过太空，被杀死了……他们把他撕成碎片，我猜还砍下了他的头 and they pull the tree back, and they tie him to the tree... and fling him into the air, and he flies through space and he's killed... and they rip him to shreds and I guess cut off his head -
我当时的冲动是去纽黑文停尸房取一个人头…然后把它传给观众。 my impulse was that the thing to do was to get a head from the New Haven morgue... and pass it around the audience.
现在，我想让阿加韦带来一个真正的头……这个头应该传递给观众…所以人们意识到这是真的，明白吗? Now, I wanted Agawe to bring on a real head... and that this head should be passed around the audience... so that somehow people realized that this stuff was real, see?
那是真的。 That it was real stuff.
现在，扮演阿加维的女演员断然拒绝了。 Now, the actress playing Agawe absolutely refused to do it.
戈登·克雷格曾经说过…为什么在教堂或其他地方会有黄金或白银，而演员可以穿着黄金和白银? You know, Gordon Craig used to talk about... why is there gold or silver in the churches or something - the great cathedrals - when actors could be wearing gold and silver?
我的意思是，人们在她生命的最后几年里看到了埃莉诺娜·杜斯，沃利——人们说这就像在舞台上看到了光，或雾……或事物的本质。 And I mean, people who saw Eleonora Duse in the last couple of years of her life, Wally - people said that it was like seeing light on stage, or mist... or the essence of something.
我的意思是，当你想到贝尔托·布莱希特时——他以某种方式创造了一个剧院，在那里人们可以观察……这非常有趣和令人兴奋…… I mean, then when you think about Bertolt Brecht- He somehow created a theater in which people could observe... that was vastly entertaining and exciting...
但你不会被这种兴奋压倒。 but in which the excitement didn't overwhelm you.
他在某种程度上让你在戏剧和你自己之间保持距离。事实上，这是两个人生活在一起所需要的。 He somehow allowed you the distance between the play and yourself... that, in fact, two human beings need in order to live together.
你知道，问题是现在的剧院能否满足观众的需求……布莱希特，克雷格和杜斯想做的事。 You know, the question is whether the theater now can do for an audience... what Brecht tried to do or what Craig or Duse tried to do.
它现在能做到吗? Can it do it now?
因为，你看，我认为现在的人们都睡得很沉……除非，你知道，你在上演那种肤浅的戏剧…… 'Cause, you see, I think that people today are so deeply asleep... that unless, you know, you're putting on those sort of superficial plays...
这只是帮助你的观众睡得更舒服……在剧院里很难知道该做什么。 that just help your audience to sleep more comfortably... it's very hard to know what to do in the theater.
因为，你看，我认为如果你上演严肃的当代戏剧……像你这样的作家…你可能只是在用一种不同的方式让听众变得迟钝。 Because, you see, I think that if you put on serious, contemporary plays... by writers like yourself... you may only be helping to deaden the audience in a different way.
你是什么意思? What do you mean?
我是说，沃利…上演这些戏剧对观众有什么影响?你表明人们现在完全孤立了… Well, I mean, Wally... how does it affect an audience to put on one of these plays... in which you show that people are totally isolated now...
他们联系不上对方，他们的生活很绝望吗? and they can't reach each other, and their lives are desperate?
或者他们看到一出戏，展示我们的世界…里面全是令人震惊的性事件，恐怖和暴力? Or how does it affect them to see a play that shows that our world... is full of nothing but shocking sexual events, and terror, and violence?
这能唤醒沉睡的观众吗? Does that help to wake up a sleeping audience?
我不这么认为，因为我觉得很有可能……你在这样的戏剧中向他们展示的世界图景……就是他们已经看到的世界图景。 See, I don't think so, 'cause I think it's very likely... that the picture of the world that you're showing them in a play like that... is exactly the picture of the world they have already.
我的意思是，你知道，他们知道自己的生活和关系…是困难和痛苦的。 I mean, you know, they know their own lives and relationships... are difficult and painful.
如果他们在电视上看晚间新闻…他们看到的是一个可怕、混乱的宇宙……到处都是强奸和谋杀，手被地铁车厢砍断… And if they watch the evening news on television... well, there what they see is a terrifying, chaotic universe... full of rapes and murders and hands cut off by subway cars...
孩子们把父母推出窗外。 and children pushing their parents out of windows.
所以这出戏告诉他们，他们对世界的印象是正确的……而且绝对没有出路。 So the play tells them that their impression of the world is correct... and that there's absolutely no way out.
他们什么也做不了。 There's nothing they can do.
他们最终会感到被动和无能为力。 And they end up feeling passive and impotent.
我的意思是，看看那个洗礼仪式……我的小组在波兰的森林里为我安排的。 I mean, look - look at something like that christening... that my group arranged for me in the forest in Poland.
嗯，有一个例子，它真的具备了戏剧的所有元素。 Well, there was an example of something that really had all the elements of theater.
这是精心设计的。这是经过仔细考虑的。 It was worked on carefully. It was thought about carefully.
这是用精致的品味和魔法完成的。 It was done with exquisite taste and magic.
事实上，他们创造了一些东西……在这种情况下，在某种程度上，这只是为了一个观众，只是为了我。 And they, in fact, created something... which, in this case, was, in a way, just for an audience of one - just for me.
但他们创造了一种有仪式、爱、惊喜的东西……结局，开始，中间和结尾…那是一出非常漂亮的戏剧。 But they created something that had ritual, love, surprise... denouement, beginning, a middle and end... and was an incredibly beautiful piece of theater.
它对观众的影响，对我的影响，在某种程度上是积极的。 And the impact that it had on its audience - on me - was somehow a totally positive one.
这并没有使我麻木。它给了我生命。 It didn't deaden me. It brought me to life.
是的，但我是说，你是说这是不可能的吗——我的意思是，呃——我的意思是——我的意思是，呃，这是不是有点让人难过……得出这样的结论:再也没有办法让人们醒来了…… Yeah, but I mean, are you saying that it's impossible - I mean, uh - I mean - I mean, uh, isn't it a little upsetting... to come to the conclusion that there's no way to wake people up anymore...
除了让他们在波兰参加某种奇怪的洗礼…还是在珠穆朗玛峰上的某种奇怪经历? except to involve them in some kind of a strange, uh, christening in Poland... or some kind of a strange experience on top of Mount Everest?
我是说，因为，你知道最可怕的是…如果你真的这么说，这是必要的…带大家去珠穆朗玛峰 I mean, uh, because, uh, you know that the awful thing is... if you really say that it's-it's necessary... to, uh, take everybody to, uh, Everest...
这真的很难，因为不是每个人都能被带到珠穆朗玛峰。 it's really tough, because everybody can't be taken to Everest.
我的意思是，历史上一定有这样的时期……用不那么严厉的措施救病人。 I mean, there must have been periods in history when it would have been possible... to, uh, save the patient through less drastic measures.
我的意思是，一定有一段时期，为了给人们…强烈或有意义的体验……你不需要带他们去珠穆朗玛峰。 I mean, there must have been periods when in order to give people... a strong or meaningful experience... you wouldn't actually have to take them to Everest.
但你现在知道了。在某种程度上，你现在知道了。 But you do now. In some way or other, you do now.
你知道，曾经有一段时间你可以，比如说，写……我不知道，简·奥斯汀的《理智与情感》 You know, there was a time when you could have just, for instance, written... I don't know, uh, Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen.
我相信读过这本书的人都有很强烈的体验。我相信他们是这样做的。 And I'm sure the people who read it had a pretty strong experience. I'm sure they did.
我是说，好吧，你是说现在的人不会懂。 I mean, all right, now you're saying that people today wouldn't get it.
也许这是真的。但我的意思是，难道没有任何形式的写作或戏剧——我的意思是，对作家来说难道不合法吗……试图描绘现实，让人们看到它? Maybe that's true. But I mean, isn't there any kind of writing or any kind of a play - I mean, isn't it still legitimate for writers... to try to portray reality so that people can see it?
我的意思是，说真的，告诉我，为什么我们要去珠穆朗玛峰……为了能够感知现实的一瞬间? I mean, really, tell me, why do we require a trip to Mount Everest... in order to be able to perceive one moment of reality?
我的意思是，珠穆朗玛峰比纽约更真实吗? I mean - I mean, is Mount Everest more real than New York?
我是说，纽约不是真的吗? I mean, isn't New York real?
我的意思是，你看，我认为如果你能完全意识到……这家餐厅隔壁雪茄店里的东西…我觉得那会让你脑袋开花的。 I mean, you see, I think if you could become fully aware... of what existed in the cigar store next door to this restaurant... I think it would just blow your brains out.
我的意思是——我的意思是，难道没有那么多的现实需要被感知……像在珠穆朗玛峰上那样在雪茄店里买雪茄? I mean - I mean, isn't there just as much reality to be perceived... in a cigar store as there is on Mount Everest?
我是说，你觉得呢? I mean, what do you think?
我认为没有什么比珠穆朗玛峰更真实的了……在某种程度上，我认为没有什么不同。 I think that not only is there nothing more real about Mount Everest... I think there's nothing that different, in a certain way.
我的意思是，因为现实在某种程度上是统一的……所以如果你的——如果你的感知是——我的意思是，如果你自己的机制运转正常…… I mean, because reality is uniform, in a way... so that if your - if your perceptions are - I mean, if your own mechanism is operating correctly...
去珠穆朗玛峰就变得无关紧要了，而且有点荒谬……因为，我的意思是——它只是——我的意思是，当然，在某种程度上，我是说…… it would become irrelevant to go to Mount Everest, and sort of absurd... because, I mean - it just - I mean, of course, on some level, I mean...
很明显，它和第七大道的雪茄店很不一样。 obviously it's very different from a cigar store on 7th Avenue.
-但我是说-我同意你的看法，沃利 - But I mean - - Well, I agree with you, Wally.
但问题是人们现在看不到雪茄店了。 But the problem is that people can't see the cigar store now.
我是说，事情不会像以前那样影响人了。 I mean, things don't affect people the way they used to.
我的意思是，很可能10年后……人们愿意支付1万美元现金被阉割……只是为了受某些东西的影响。 I mean, it may very well be that 10 years from now... people will pay $10,000 in cash to be castrated... just in order to be affected by something.
你觉得这是为什么?我是说，为什么呢? Well, why - why do you think that is? I mean, why is that?
我的意思是，这只是因为人们今天很懒，还是他们很无聊? I mean, is it just because people are lazy today, or they're bored?
我的意思是，我们就像无聊的，被宠坏的孩子…整天躺在浴缸里…只是在玩他们的塑料鸭…现在他们就会想，“好吧，我能做什么?” I mean, are we just like bored, spoiled children... who've just been lying in the bathtub all day... just playing with their plastic duck... and now they're just thinking, “Well, what can I do?”
好吧。是的。我们很无聊。 Okay. Yes. We're bored.
我们现在都无聊了。 We're all bored now.
但你有没有想过，沃利，这个过程…这就造成了我们现在在世界上看到的无聊……很可能是一种自我延续的、无意识的洗脑方式…… But has it ever occurred to you, Wally, that the process... that creates this boredom that we see in the world now... may very well be a self-perpetuating, unconscious form of brainwashing...
由一个以金钱为基础的极权政府创造的…这一切比人们想象的要危险得多……这不仅仅是个人生存的问题沃利 created by a world totalitarian government based on money... and that all of this is much more dangerous than one thinks... and it's not just a question of individual survival, Wally...
但是无聊的人睡着了……睡着了的人不会拒绝吗? but that somebody who's bored is asleep... and somebody who's asleep will not say no?
你看，我一直在见这些人——我是说，就在几天前……我遇到了这个我非常钦佩的人。 See, I keep meeting these people - I mean, uh, just a few days ago... I met this man whom I greatly admire.
他是瑞典物理学家。古斯塔夫Bjornstrand。 He's a Swedish physicist. Gustav Björnstrand.
他告诉我他不再看电视了……他不看报纸，也不看杂志。 And he told me that he no longer watches television... he doesn't read newspapers, and he doesn't read magazines.
他完全把他们从他的生活中抹去了。因为他真的觉得我们现在生活在某种奥威尔式的噩梦中…… He's completely cut them out of his life... because he really does feel that we're living in some kind of Orwellian nightmare now...
你现在听到的一切都是为了把你变成一个机器人。 and that everything that you hear now contributes to turning you into a robot.
当我在芬德霍恩的时候，我遇到了一位非凡的英国树木专家……他把一生都献给了拯救树木。 And when I was at Findhorn, I met this extraordinary English tree expert... who had devoted his life to saving trees.
刚从华盛顿回来，游说拯救红杉。 Just got back from Washington, lobbying to save the redwoods.
他已经84岁了，还总是背着背包旅行……因为他不知道明天会在哪里 He's 84 years old, and he always travels with a backpack... 'cause he never knows where he's gonna be tomorrow.
当我在芬德霍恩遇到他时，他问我，“你来自哪里?” And when I met him at Findhorn, he said to me, “Where are you from?”
我说:“纽约。”他说:“啊，纽约。是的，那是一个非常有趣的地方。 I said, “New York.” He said, “Ah, New York. Yes, that's a very interesting place.
你知道很多纽约人一直在说他们想离开，但从来没有离开吗?” Do you know a lot of New Yorkers who keep talking about the fact that they want to leave, but never do?”
我说，“哦，是的。”他说:“你觉得他们为什么不离开?” And I said, “Oh, yes.” And he said, “Why do you think they don't leave?”
我给了他不同的陈词滥调。他说，“哦，我不认为是那样的。” I gave him different banal theories. He said, “Oh, I don't think it's that way at all.”
他说:“我认为纽约是新集中营的新模式……“集中营是由囚犯自己建造的…… He said, “I think that New York is the new model for the new concentration camp... “where the camp has been built by the inmates themselves...
“囚犯就是守卫，他们对自己建造的这个东西感到自豪。 “and the inmates are the guards, and they have this pride in this thing they've built.
“他们建造了自己的监狱。 “They've built their own prison.
“所以他们以精神分裂症的状态存在……“他们既是看守，又是囚犯。 “And so they exist in a state of schizophrenia... “where they are both guards and prisoners.
结果，他们不再有能力——被切除了额叶——“离开他们自己制造的监狱……或者甚至把它看作一个监狱。” “And as a result, they no longer have - having been lobotomized - “the capacity to leave the prison they've made... or to even see it as a prison.”
然后他从口袋里掏出一颗种子，准备种一棵树……他说:“这是一棵松树。” And then he went into his pocket, and he took out a seed for a tree... and he said, “This is a pine tree.”
他把它放在我手里，说"趁现在还来得及逃跑" He put it in my hand and he said, “Escape before it's too late.”
事实上，到现在已经有两三年了……奇基塔和我有一种非常不愉快的感觉我们真的应该出去。 See, actually, for two or three years now... Chiquita and I have had this very unpleasant feeling that we really should get out.
我们感觉就像30年代末德国的犹太人。 We really feel like Jews in Germany in the late '30s.
离开这里。 Get out of here.
当然，问题是去哪里。 Of course, the problem is where to go.
因为很明显，整个世界都在朝着同一个方向发展。 'Cause it seems quite obvious that the whole world is going in the same direction.
我认为20世纪60年代很有可能……代表了人类灭绝前的最后一次爆发……这是未来的开始，现在… See, I think it's quite possible that the 1960s... represented the last burst of the human being before he was extinguished... and that this is the beginning of the rest of the future, now...
从现在开始，所有这些机器人就会到处走动……没有感觉，没有思考。 and that from now on there'll simply be all these robots walking around... feeling nothing, thinking nothing.
几乎没有人会留下来提醒他们……曾经有一个物种叫人类…带着感情和想法……而那段历史和记忆现在正在被抹去…… And there'll be nobody left almost to remind them... that there once was a species called a human being... with feelings and thoughts... and that history and memory are right now being erased...
很快就没人会记得了……那个星球上存在生命。 and soon nobody will really remember... that life existed on the planet.
当然，Björnstrand觉得现在真的几乎没有希望了……我们可能会回到一个非常野蛮的……无法无天,可怕的时期。 Now, of course, Björnstrand feels that there's really almost no hope... and that we're probably going back to a very savage... lawless, terrifying period.
芬德霍恩的人对此有不同的看法。 Findhorn people see it a little differently.
他们觉得会有这些光的口袋…如雨后春笋般出现在世界各地…在某种程度上，它们将是这个星球上看不见的行星…… They're feeling that there'll be these pockets of light... springing up in different parts of the world... and that these will be, in a way, invisible planets on this planet...
当我们，或者说世界变得越来越冷……我们可以进行隐形的太空旅行到这些不同的行星……为我们在地球本身所需要做的事情加油…和回来。 and that as we, or the world, grow colder... we can take invisible space journeys to these different planets... refuel for what it is we need to do on the planet itself... and come back.
他们觉得现在应该有中心了…人们可以来这里为世界重建一个新的未来。 And it's their feeling that there have to be centers now... where people can come and reconstruct a new future for the world.
当我和Gustav Björnstrand聊天的时候…他说实际上这些中心现在到处都在发展… And when I was talking to, uh, Gustav Björnstrand... he was saying that actually these centers are growing up everywhere now...
他们想要做的，也是芬德霍恩想要做的…在某种程度上，我想做的是——我的意思是，这些东西不能被命名…… and that what they're trying to do, which is what Findhorn was trying to do... and, in a way, what I was trying to do - I mean, these things can't be given names...
但在某种程度上，这些都是创建一种新型学校的尝试……或者是一种新的修道院。 but in a way, these are all attempts at creating a new kind of school... or a new kind of monastery.
Björnstrand谈到了“保护区”的概念——可以记住历史的安全岛屿……人类可以继续运作… And Björnstrand talks about the concept of “reserves” - islands of safety where history can be remembered... and the human being can continue to function...
为了让这个物种度过黑暗时代。 in order to maintain the species through a dark age.
换句话说，我们说的是地下……在黑暗时代确实以不同的方式存在……在教会的神秘教团中。 In other words, we're talking about an underground... which did exist in a different way during the Dark Ages... among the mystical orders of the church.
这个地下组织的目的是…就是找出如何保护光，生命，文化…如何维持生命。 And the purpose of this underground... is to find out how to preserve the light, life, the culture... how to keep things living.
你看，我一直在想我们需要的…是一种新的语言——一种发自内心的语言……一种语言，就像在波兰森林里，在那里语言是不需要的。 You see, I keep thinking that what we need... is a new language - a language of the heart... a language, as in the Polish forest, where language wasn't needed.
人与人之间的某种语言是一种新的诗歌……这是跳舞的蜜蜂的诗告诉我们蜂蜜在哪里。 Some kind of language between people that is a new kind of poetry... that's the poetry of the dancing bee that tells us where the honey is.
我认为，为了创造这种语言……你得学会如何通过镜子……进入另一种感知…… And I think that in order to create that language... you're going to have to learn how you can go through a looking glass... into another kind of perception...
在那里，你有一种与万物结合的感觉……突然间你明白了一切。 where you have that sense of being united to all things... and suddenly you understand everything.
你准备吃点甜点了吗? Are you ready for some dessert?
我想我还是来杯浓缩咖啡吧。谢谢你！ Uh, I think I'll just have an espresso. Thank you.
——非常好。-我也要一份谢谢你！ - Very good. - I'll - I'll also have one. Thank you.
还有，我能再来一杯苦杏酒吗? And - And, uh, could I also have, uh, an amaretto?
当然可以,先生。 Certainly, sir.
谢谢你！ Thank you.
你看，沃利，芬德宏建了一座不可思议的建筑。 You see, Wally, there's this incredible building that they built at Findhorn.
而设计它的人一生中从未设计过任何东西。 And the man who designed it had never designed anything in his life.
他写儿童读物。 He wrote children's books.
有些人想让它成为冥想的殿堂……还有一些人想把它变成一个讲堂。 And some people wanted it to be a sort of hall of meditation... and others wanted it to be a kind of lecture hall.
但社区的精神部分希望它还有另一个功能……因为他们想让它成为一艘在晚上可以升起的宇宙飞船…… But the psychic part of the community wanted it to serve another function as well... because they wanted it to be a kind of spaceship which at night could rise up...
让ufo知道这是一个安全的地方降落…他们会在那里找到朋友。 and let the U.F.O.'s know that this was a safe place to land... and that they would find friends there.
所以，问题是——因为它需要一个巨大的屋顶——是如何有一个可以留在建筑物上的屋顶……但同时也能在夜间飞行并与飞碟相遇。 So, the problem was - 'cause it needed a massive kind of roof- was how to have a roof that would stay on the building... but at the same time be able to fly up at night and meet the flying saucers.
所以，建筑师冥想了又冥想……最后他想出了一个非常简单的解决办法……没有把屋顶和建筑连接起来…这意味着它应该脱落… So, the architect meditated and meditated... and he finally came up with the very simple solution... of not actually joining the roof to the building... which means that it should fall off...
因为苏格兰北部有大风 because they have great gales up in northern Scotland.
所以，为了不让它掉下来，他从海滩上拿了一些石头——或者说我们拿了，因为我我在这栋建筑上工作过——屋顶上到处都是，就像这样。 So, to keep it from falling off, he got beach stones from the beach - or we did, 'cause I-l worked on this building - all up and down the roof, just like that.
这个想法是，从一块石头流到另一块石头的能量…会很坚强，你知道……它可以在任何情况下保持屋顶的稳定 And the idea was that the energy that would flow from stone to stone... would be so strong, you see... that it would keep the roof down under any conditions...
但与此同时，如果屋顶需要上升，它会足够轻，可以上升。 but at the same time, if the roof needed to go up, it would be light enough to go up.
嗯——你看，它起作用了。 Well - it works, you see.
现在，建筑师不知道为什么它会起作用……它不应该有用，因为它应该会掉下来。 Now, architects don't know why it works... and it shouldn't work, 'cause it should fall off.
但它的工作原理。它的工作。 But it works. It does work.
大风来了，屋顶应该会掉下来，但它没有掉下来。 The gales blow, and the roof should fall off, but it doesn't fall off.
是的。 Yep.
嗯,嗯…你想知道我对这一切的真实反应吗? Well, uh... do you want to know my actual response to all this?
-你想知道我的真实反应吗?——是的! - Do you want to hear my actual response? - Yes!
你看，我实际的反应——我的意思是——我的意思是——我的意思是，我只是想——活下去，你知道吗? See, my actual response - I mean - I mean - I mean, I'm just trying to - to survive, you know?
我是说，我只是想谋生…我只想付房租和账单。 I mean, I'm just trying to earn a living... just trying to pay my rent and my bills.
我是说，我过我自己的生活。 I mean, uh - Ah, I live my life.
我喜欢和黛比呆在家里。 I enjoy staying home with Debby.
我在读查尔顿·赫斯顿的自传。 I'm reading Charlton Heston's autobiography.
那就是了。 And that's that.
我是说，你知道-我是说，偶尔，也许…黛比和我出去，我们去参加派对什么的。 I mean, you know - I mean, occasionally, maybe... Debby and I will step outside, we'll go to a party or something.
如果我能偶尔发挥一下我的小才能，写一个小剧本……那真是，真是太好了。 And if I can occasionally get my little talent together and write a little play... well, then that's just - that's just wonderful.
我的意思是，我喜欢读别人写的其他小剧本……阅读这些戏剧的评论和人们对它们的评价……人们说了什么关于人们说了什么。 And I mean, I enjoy reading about other little plays people have written... and reading the reviews of those plays and what people said about them... and what people said about what people said.
我的意思是，我有——我有一个差事和责任的清单，我记在一个笔记本上。 And I mean, I have - I have a list of errands and responsibilities that I keep in a notebook.
我喜欢浏览笔记本……履行职责，跑腿……然后把它们从清单上划掉。 I enjoy going through the notebook... carrying out the responsibilities, doing the errands... and crossing them off the list.
我的意思是，我只是——我只是不知道还有谁能比我更享受……比我喜欢读查尔顿·赫斯顿的自传或者，你知道的，早上起床… And, I mean, I just - I just don't know how anybody could enjoy anything more... than I enjoy, uh, reading Charlton Heston's autobiography... or, uh, you know, uh, getting up in the morning...
喝一杯已经等了我一整晚的冷咖啡……早上还在那儿等着我喝酒…一夜之间，没有一只蟑螂或苍蝇死在里面。 and having the cup of cold coffee that's been waiting for me all night... still there for me to drink in the morning... and no cockroach or fly has-has died in it overnight.
我的意思是，我起床的时候太激动了……我看到咖啡在那里，正合我意。 I mean, I'm just so thrilled when I get up... and I see that coffee there, just the way I wanted it.
我的意思是，我无法想象…谁能享受到比这更好的东西呢。 I mean, I just can't imagine... how anybody could enjoy something else any more than that.
我的意思是——我的意思是，很明显，如果那只蟑螂——如果里面有一只死蟑螂……那我就有一种失望的感觉，我很难过。 I mean - I mean, obviously, if the cockroach - If there is a dead cockroach in it... well, then I just have a feeling of disappointment, and I'm sad.
但我的意思是，我——我只是——我只是不认为……我觉得我需要的不仅仅是这些。 But I mean, I - I just- I just don't think... I feel the need for anything more than all this.
然而，你知道，你似乎在说…,嗯…今天的任何人都能拥有有意义的生活，这是不可思议的。你知道，每个人都被彻底摧毁了…… Whereas, you know, you seem to be saying... that, uh... it's inconceivable that anybody could be having a meaningful life today... and, you know, everyone is totally destroyed...
我们都需要生活在这些前哨。 and we all need to live in these outposts.
但我的意思是，你知道，我简直不敢相信——即使对你来说——我的意思是，你不觉得——早上起床不是很愉快吗……还有奇基塔，还有孩子们… But I mean, you know, I just can't believe - even for you - I mean, don't you find - isn't it pleasant just to get up in the morning... and there's Chiquita, there are the children...
还有《泰晤士报》，你可以去看。 and The Times is delivered, you can read it.
我是说，也许你会导演一出戏，也许你不会。 I mean, maybe you'll direct a play, maybe you won't direct a play.
但是忘掉你可能执导也可能不执导的那部戏吧。 But forget about the play that you may or may not direct.
为什么有必要-为什么不向后靠享受这些细节呢? Why is it necessary to - Why not lean back and just enjoy these details?
我是说，还会有一杯美味的咖啡和一块咖啡蛋糕。 I mean, and there'd be a delicious cup of coffee and a piece of coffeecake.
我的意思是，为什么有必要拥有比这更多的……或者想过拥有更多吗? I mean, why is it necessary to have more than this... or to even think about having more than this?
我是说，我真的不知道你在说什么。 I mean, I don't really know what you're talking about.
我是说——我是说，我知道你在说什么……但我真的不知道你在说什么 I mean - I mean, I know what you're talking about... but I don't really know what you're talking about.
我的意思是，你知道，即使我完全同意你，你知道…即使我接受了任何人都不可能…现在拥有个人幸福… And I mean, you know, even if I were to totally agree with you, you know... and even if I were to accept the idea that there's just no way for anybody... to have personal happiness now...
嗯，你知道，我还是不能接受这个想法……让生活变得美好的方法就是…你知道，拒绝西方文明… well, you know, I still couldn't accept the idea... that the way to make life wonderful would be to just totally... you know, reject Western civilization...
回到某种奇怪的信仰中——我的意思是，我甚至不知道如何开始谈论这个……但你知道，在中世纪… and fall back into some kind of belief in some kind of weird something - I mean, I don't even know how to begin talking about this... but you know, in the Middle Ages...
在我们今天所知的科学思维出现之前……人们可以相信任何事。 before the arrival of scientific thinking as we know it today... well, people could believe anything.
任何事情都有可能是真的——圣母玛利亚的雕像……会说话，会流血什么的。 Anything could be true - the statue of the Virgin Mary... could speak or bleed or whatever it was.
但奇妙的事情发生了…那就是在西方世界科学发展的过程中有些事情的确是慢慢来才被了解和理解的。 But the wonderful thing that happened... was that then in the development of science in the Western world... certain things did come slowly to be known and understood.
我是说，你知道……显然，科学中的所有观点都在不断地被修正。 I mean, you know... obviously, all ideas in science are constantly being revised.
我是说，这才是重点。 I mean, that's the whole point.
但我们至少知道宇宙有某种形状和秩序……还有，你知道，树不会变成人或女神……他们不这么做有很好的理由。 But we do at least know that the universe has some shape and order... and that, uh, you know, trees do not turn into people or goddesses... and there are very good reasons why they don't...
你不能相信任何事。 and you can't just believe absolutely anything.
然而，你说的那些事情——我是说——我是说，你在书里发现了手印……有三个安德烈和一个安托万·德Saint-Exupéry。 Whereas, the things that you're talking about- I mean - I mean, you found the handprint in the book... and there were - there were three Andres and one Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.
对我来说这是个巧合。 And to me that is a coincidence.
但是，你知道，写这本书的人…他们有自己的理由把它们放在一起。 But - And-And then, you know, the people who put that book together... well, they had their own reasons for putting it together.
但对你来说意义重大，就好像这本书是40年前写的……这样你就会明白，就好像它是为你设计的。 But to you it was significant, as if that book had been written 40 years ago... so that you would see it, as if it was planned for you, in a way.
我是说，真的——我是说——我是说，好吧，假设，如果我在一家中国餐馆得到幸运饼干……我是说，当然，即使是我也有一种倾向 I mean, really - I mean - I mean, all right, let's say, if I get a fortune cookie in a Chinese restaurant... I mean, of course, even I have a tendency -
我的意思是，你知道-我的意思是，当然，我不会把它扔掉。 I mean, you know - I mean, of course, I would hardly throw it out.
我是说，我读过。我读了，然后——然后，呃——我只是本能地有点——你知道，如果它说的是，呃……“和一个黑头发的男人交谈对你来说非常重要”…… I mean, I read it. I read it, and - and, uh - I just instinctively sort of- You know, if it says something like, uh... “A conversation with a dark-haired man will be very important for you”...
我只是本能地想，“我认识的人中谁是黑头发的? well, I just instinctively think, you know, “Who do I know who has dark hair?
我们谈话了吗?我们谈过什么?” Did we have a conversation? What did we talk about?”
换句话说，我内心有种力量让我读它……我本能地把它看作是未来的预兆。 In other words, uh, there's something in me that makes me read it... and I instinctively interpret it as if it were an omen of the future.
但在我的意识中，这是我整个人生观的基础，我的意思是，我必须完全改变，不再有这个观点。 But in my conscious opinion, which is so fundamental to my whole view of life - I mean, I would just have to change totally to not have this opinion.
在我看来，这只是……那是几年前在饼干工厂写的，跟我一点关系都没有。 In my conscious opinion, this is simply something... that was written in the cookie factory several years ago and in no way refers to me.
我是说，你知道，事实上我得到了它，我是说，写它的人对我一无所知。 I mean, you know, the - the fact that I got it- I mean, the man who wrote it did not know anything about me.
我是说，他不可能知道我的任何事。 I mean, he could not have known anything about me.
这饼干不可能跟我有什么关系。 There's no way that this cookie could actually have to do with me.
而我得到它的事实基本上就是一个笑话。 And the fact that I've gotten it is just basically a joke.
我的意思是，如果我要坐飞机旅行…我得到了一个幸运饼干，上面写着“别走”…我的意思是，当然，我承认我可能会有一秒钟感到有点紧张。 And I mean, if I were gonna go on a trip on an airplane... and I got a fortune cookie that said “Don't go”... I mean, of course, I admit I might feel a bit nervous for about one second.
但事实上，我会去，因为，我的意思是…这次旅行可能成功，也可能失败……根据飞机的状态和飞行员的状态。 But in fact, I would go because, I mean... that trip is gonna be successful or unsuccessful... based on the state of the airplane and the state of the pilot.
而小甜饼无权知道这事。 And the cookie is in no position to know about that.
我的意思是，你知道，这是一样的…任何一种，预言，征兆，预兆。 And I mean, you know, it's the same... with any kind of, uh, prophecy, or a sign, or an omen.
因为如果你相信预兆，那就意味着宇宙-我的意思是，我甚至不知道该怎么描述。 Because if you believe in omens, then that means that the universe - I mean, I don't even know how to begin to describe this.
这意味着未来正在以某种方式传递信息……回到现在。 That means that the future is somehow sending messages... backwards to the present.
这意味着未来一定已经在某种意义上存在了……才能发送这些信息。 Which-Which means that the future must exist in some sense already... in order to be able to send these messages.
这也意味着宇宙中的事物存在是有目的的——给我们信息。 And it also means that things in the universe are there for a purpose - to give us messages.
而我认为宇宙中的事物就在那里。 Whereas I think that things in the universe are just there.
我是说，它们没有任何意义。 I mean, they don't mean anything.
我的意思是，你知道，如果乌龟蛋从树上掉下来，溅在铺路石上……只是因为那只乌龟不小心笨手笨脚的。 I mean, you know, if the turtle's egg falls out of the tree and splashes on the paving stones... it's just because that turtle was clumsy - by accident.
在此基础上决定是否派遣我的军舰去作战…在我看来是个大错误。 And-And to decide whether to send my ships off to war on the basis of that... seems a big mistake to me.
那么，你会派你的军舰去打仗吗? Well, what information would you send your ships to war on?
因为如果这一切都毫无意义…你接受幸运饼干有什么区别…还是福特基金会的统计数字? Because if it's all meaningless... what's the difference whether you accept the fortune cookie... or the statistics of the Ford Foundation?
这似乎无关紧要。 It doesn't seem to matter.
幸运饼干和乌龟蛋的毫无意义的事实…不可能和你分析的对象有任何关联。 Well, the meaningless fact of the fortune cookie or the turtle's egg... can't possibly have any relevance to the subject you're analyzing.
然而一组毫无意义的事实被收集和解释…从科学的角度来看，这很可能是相关的。 Whereas a group of meaningless facts that are collected and interpreted... in a scientific way may quite possibly be relevant.
因为关于事物的科学理论的奇妙之处…它们是基于可以重复的实验。 Because the wonderful thing about scientific theories about things... is that they're based on experiments that can be repeated.
嗯。 Hmm.
这是真的，沃利。 Well, it's true, Wally.
我的意思是，你知道，跟随预兆之类的…可能只是让我们摆脱困境的一种方式这样我们就不用为自己的行为负责了。 I mean, you know, following omens and so on... is probably just a way of letting ourselves off the hook... so that we don't have to take individual responsibility for our own actions.
但我的意思是，把自己交给潜意识……会让你很容易受到各种可怕的操纵。 But I mean, giving yourself over to the unconscious... can leave you vulnerable to all sorts of very frightening manipulation.
在我参与的所有工作中，总是有危险。 And in all the work that I was involved in, there was always that danger.
一直存在着干扰人们生活的问题……因为如果我领导其中一个研讨会，那么我就会成为一名医生……一半是治疗师，一半是牧师。 And there was always that question of tampering with people's lives... because if I lead one of these workshops, then I do become partly a doctor... and partly a therapist, and partly a priest.
我不是医生，不是心理医生，也不是牧师。 And I'm not a doctor, or a therapist, or a priest.
已经有一些新修道院…或社区，或任何我们一直在谈论的……正在成为制度化的……我想，甚至在某种程度上，有时，有点法西斯主义。 And already some of these new monasteries... or communities or whatever we've been talking about... are becoming institutionalized... and I guess even in a way, at times, sort of fascistic.
你知道，有一种自鸣得意的精英偏执狂在成长——一种“他们”和“我们”的感觉——这非常令人不安。 You know, there's a sort of self-satisfied elitist paranoia that grows up - a feeling of “them” and “us” - that is very unsettling.
但我是说，问题是，沃利，我认为这是对科学的过度崇拜…这导致了我们现在的处境。 But I mean, uh, the thing is, Wally, I think it's the exaggerated worship of science... that has led us into this situation.
我的意思是，科学对我们来说是一种神奇的力量……这样就能解决所有问题了。 I mean, science has been held up to us as a magical force... that would somehow solve everything.
恰恰相反。事实恰恰相反。 Well, quite the contrary. It's done quite the contrary.
它摧毁了一切。 It's destroyed everything.
所以我认为这才是真正导致……对于我们现在看到的这种对科学非常强烈、深刻的反应……就像30年代德国释放的纳粹恶魔一样… So that is what has really led, I think... to this very strong, deep reaction against science that we're seeing now... just as the Nazi demons that were released in the '30s in Germany...
可能是对某种压抑的知识的一种反应……文化和理性思考。 were probably a reaction against a certain oppressive kind of knowledge... and culture and rational thinking.
所以我同意我们在谈论一些潜在的非常危险的事情。 So I agree that we're talking about something potentially very dangerous.
但现代科学的危险性并没有特别小。 But modern science has not been particularly less dangerous.
正确的。我同意你的看法。 Right. Well, I agree with you.
我完全同意。 I completely agree.
不，真相是…我想我知道你所描述的工作中真正困扰我的是什么……我都不知道我能不能表达出来 No, you know, the truth is... I think I do know what really disturbs me about the work you've described... and I don't even know if I can express it.
但不知怎么的，你在那些车间里工作的全部意义…当你进入正题时，你会问它到底是关于什么的-重点，真的，我认为… But somehow it seems that the whole point of the work that you did in those workshops... when you get right down to it and you ask what was it really about- The whole point, really, I think...
就是让车间里的人，包括你自己以某种方式剥去每一丝目的性……从某些特定的时刻。 was to enable the people in the workshops, including yourself... to somehow sort of strip away every scrap of purposefulness... from certain selected moments.
这样做的目的是为了让你们都能体验到。只是纯粹的存在。 And the point of it was so that you would then all be able to experience... somehow just pure being.
换句话说，你试图发现在特定的时刻生活是什么感觉……没有任何你应该做的事情。 In other words, you were trying to discover what it would be like to live for certain moments... without having any particular thing that you were supposed to be doing.
我想我只是反对这一点。 And I think I just simply object to that.
我的意思是，我只是不认为我应该接受这个想法，应该有一些时刻……你什么都不想做。 I mean, I just don't think I accept the idea that there should be moments... in which you're not trying to do anything.
我认为，做事是我们的天性。 I think, uh, it's our nature, uh, to do things.
我觉得我们应该做点什么。 I think we should do things.
我认为，有目的性…是我们无法消除的基本人类结构的一部分。 I think that, uh, purposefulness... is part of our ineradicable basic human structure.
说我们没有它也能活下去……就像在说，一棵树没有树枝和根也能生存。 And to say that we ought to be able to live without it... is like saying that, uh, a tree ought to be able to live without branches or roots.
但-但实际上，没有树枝和根，就不是树了。 But - But actually, without branches or roots, it wouldn't be a tree.
我的意思是，它就是一个圆木。你明白我的意思吗? I mean, it would just be a log. Do you see what I'm saying?
啊哈。啊哈。 Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
我的意思是，换句话说，如果我坐在家里无事可做……我自然会去找书。 I mean, in other words, if I'm sitting at home and I have nothing to do... well, I naturally reach for a book.
我是说，坐在那里什么都不做有什么好呢? I mean, what would be so great about just sitting there and, uh, doing nothing?
这看起来很荒谬。 It just seems absurd.
如果黛比在那里呢? And if Debby is there?
这是一样的。 Well, that's just the same thing.
我是说，真的有这样的事吗?两个人什么都不做，只是在一起? I mean, is there really such a thing as, uh... two people doing nothing but just being together?
我的意思是，他们会不会……用我们常说的那个词"联系" I mean, would they simply then... be, uh, “relating,” to use the word we're always using?
我是说，这意味着什么? I mean, what would that mean?
我是说，要么我们要好好谈谈或者我们要，呃，把垃圾拿出去…或者我们一起做点什么。 I mean, either we're gonna have a conversation... or we're going to, uh, carry out the garbage... or we're going to do something, separately or together.
你明白我的意思吗? I mean, do you see what I'm saying?
我是说，只是，简单地，坐在那里意味着什么? I mean, what does it mean to just, uh, simply, uh, sit there?
这会让你紧张。 That makes you nervous.
为什么我就不会紧张呢?我觉得这很荒谬。 Well, well, why shouldn't it make me nervous? It just seems ridiculous to me.
这很有趣,沃利。 That's interesting, Wally.
你知道，当我去西藏西部的拉达克，在一个农场呆了一个月……嗯，在那里，你知道，当人们晚上过来喝茶时，没有人说话。 You know, when I went to Ladakh in western Tibet and stayed on a farm for a month... well, there, you know, when people come over in the evening for tea, nobody says anything.
除非有话要说，但几乎没有。 Unless there's something to say, but there almost never is.
所以他们只是坐在那里喝茶，这似乎并没有影响到他们。 So they just sit there and drink their tea, and it doesn't seem to bother them.
我是说，你看，麻烦是，沃利，总是很活跃，做事…我认为有可能做各种各样的事情…与此同时，你的内心会完全死去。 I mean, you see, the trouble, Wally, with always being active and doing things... is that I think it's quite possible to do all sorts of things... and at the same time be completely dead inside.
我的意思是，你做了所有这些事情，但你真的做了吗……因为你真的有冲动去做……还是机械地做，就像我们之前说的那样? I mean, you're doing all these things, but are you doing them... because you really feel an impulse to do them... or are you doing them mechanically, as we were saying before?
因为我真的相信，如果你只是机械地生活……那你就得改变你的生活。 Because I really do believe that if you're just living mechanically... then you have to change your life.
我的意思是，你知道，当你年轻的时候，你总是出去约会。 I mean, you know, when you're young, you go out on dates all the time.
你去跳舞什么的。你自由漂浮。 You go dancing or something. You're floating free.
然后有一天你突然发现自己陷入了一段感情…突然一切都冻结了。 And then one day suddenly you find yourself in a relationship... and suddenly everything freezes.
这也适用于你的工作。 And this can be true in your work as well.
我的意思是，当然，如果你真的活在里面……那当然就没有问题了。 And I mean, of course, if you're really alive inside... then of course there's no problem.
我的意思是，如果你和某人住在一个小房间里……你和和你一起生活的人之间的生活还在继续…… I mean, if you're living with somebody in one little room... and there's a life going on between you and the person you're living with...
那整个冒险就在那个房间里展开了。 well, then a whole adventure can be going on right in that room.
但总有可能会出现问题。 But there's always the danger that things can go dead.
那我真的认为你应该变成流浪汉之类的，你知道……像凯鲁亚克一样，去旅行。 Then I really do think you have to kind of become a hobo or something, you know... like Kerouac, and go out on the road.
我真的相信这一点。 I really believe that.
你知道，在路上度过一生并没有那么美好。 You know, it's not that wonderful to spend your life on the road.
如果可以的话，我最喜欢呆在那个房间里。 My own overwhelming preference is to stay in that room if you can.
但是你知道，如果你和某人住了很长一段时间，人们会经常说……“嗯，当然不像以前那么好了，但这是很自然的。 But you know, if you live with somebody for a long time, people are constantly saying... “Well, of course it's not as great as it used to be, but that's only natural.
浪漫的第一次脸红就开始了，这是必然的。” The first blush of a romance goes, and that's the way it has to be.”
现在，我完全不同意。 Now, I totally disagree with that.
但我确实认为，你必须经常坦率地问自己这个问题: But I do think that you have to constantly ask yourself the question, with total frankness:
你们的婚姻还是婚姻吗? ls your marriage still a marriage?
有圣礼元素吗? Is the sacramental element there?
就像你要问你作品中的圣礼元素一样——它还在吗? Just as you have to ask about the sacramental element in your work - Is it still there?
我是说，沃利，这是件很可怕的事，突然意识到……天啊，我以为我在过自己的生活，但事实上我已经不是一个人了。 I mean, it's a very frightening thing, Wally, to have to suddenly realize... that, my God, I thought I was living my life, but in fact I haven't been a human being.
我是一个表演者。 I've been a performer.
我没活过。我一直在演戏。我扮演了父亲的角色。 I haven't been living. I've been acting. I've - I've acted the role of the father.
我扮演过丈夫的角色。我扮演了那个朋友的角色。 I've acted the role of the husband. I've acted the role of the friend.
我扮演过作家，导演，或者诸如此类的角色。 I've acted the role of the writer, or director, or what have you.
我和这个人住在同一个房间，但我没真正见过他们。 I've lived in the same room with this person, but I haven't really seen them.
我没听过。我并没有真正和他们在一起。 I haven't really heard them. I haven't really been with them.
是的，我知道有些人有时候…肩并肩地存在着。 Yeah, I know some people are just sometimes... uh, existing just side by side.
我是说，呃，另一个人的脸可能会变成一张巨大的狼脸……而且，呃，不会被注意到。 I mean, uh, the other person's, uh, face could just turn into a great wolf's face... and, uh, it just wouldn't be noticed.
而且不会被注意到。不会被注意到的。 And it wouldn't be noticed, no. It wouldn't be noticed.
我的意思是，当我不久前在以色列的时候——我的意思是，我有一张奇基塔的照片——我总是带着它。这张照片是她26岁左右照的。 I mean, when I was in Israel a little while ago - I mean, I have this picture of Chiquita that was taken when she - I always carry it with me. It was taken when she was about 26 or something.
那是夏天，她躺在阳台上……穿着这种老式的长裙子有点往上拉。 And it's in summer, and she's stretched out on a terrace... in this sort of old-fashioned long skirt that's kind of pulled up.
她苗条，性感，美丽。 And she's slim and sensual and beautiful.
我总是看着那张照片想着她看起来有多性感。 And I've always looked at that picture and just thought about just how sexy she looks.
然后去年在以色列，我看到了这张照片……我意识到照片上的那张脸是世界上最悲伤的脸。 And then last year in Israel, I looked at the picture... and I realized that that face in the picture was the saddest face in the world.
那个女孩当时只是迷路了…如此悲伤，如此孤独。 That girl at that time was just lost... so sad and so alone.
我带着这张照片好多年了从来没有真正看到过它是什么。 I've been carrying this picture for years and not ever really seeing what it is, you know.
我只是从来没看过那张照片。 I just never really looked at the picture.
然后，在某个时刻，我意识到我已经有整整18年没有感觉了……除了在最极端的情况下。 And then, at a certain point, I realized I'd just gone for a good 18 years unable to feel... except in the most extreme situations.
我的意思是，在某种程度上，我仍然有能力活在我的作品中。 I mean, to some extent, I still had the ability to live in my work.
这就是为什么我是个工作狂。 That was why I was such a work junkie.
这就是为什么我觉得我演的每一部戏都是关乎我的生死。 That was why I felt that every play that I did was a matter of my life or my death.
但在现实生活中，我已经死了。 But in my real life, I was dead.
我是一个机器人。 I was a robot.
我的意思是，我甚至不允许自己生气或烦恼。 I mean, I didn't even allow myself to get angry or annoyed.
我的意思是，你知道，今天奇基塔，尼古拉斯，玛丽娜-所有的clay long，就像人们做的，他们做的事情，他们说的事情，让我生气。 I mean, you know, today Chiquita, Nicolas, Marina - All clay long, as people do, they do things that annoy me and they say things that annoy me.
今天我很生气。他们说，“你为什么生气?” And today I get annoyed. And they say, “Why are you annoyed?”
我说"因为你很烦人" And I say, “Because you're annoying,” you know.
当我允许自己考虑这种可能性时不跟奇基塔共度余生我意识到我这辈子最想要的就是永远和她在一起。 And when I allowed myself to consider the possibility... of not spending the rest of my life with Chiquita... I realized that what I wanted most in life was to always be with her.
但在那个时候，我还不知道让自己做出反应是什么感觉……对另一个人。 But at that time, I hadn't learned what it would be like to let yourself react... to another human being.
如果你不能对另一个人做出反应……那么就不可能有行动或相互作用。 And if you can't react to another person... then there's no possibility of action or interaction.
如果没有，我真的不知道“爱”这个词是什么意思……除了责任、义务、情感、恐惧。 And if there isn't, I don't really know what the word “love” means... except duty, obligation, sentimentality, fear.
我是说-我不知道你怎么想，沃利，但我必须让自己接受某种训练来学习如何做人。 I mean - I don't know about you, Wally, but I - I just had to put myself into a kind of training program to learn how to be a human being.
我是说，我有什么感觉?我不知道。 I mean, how did I feel about anything? I didn't know.
我喜欢什么样的东西?我到底想和什么样的人在一起?你知道吗? What kind of things did I like? What kind of people did I really want to be with? You know?
而我能想到的唯一查明真相的方法就是关掉所有的噪音，停止表演…听听我内心的想法。 And the only way that I could think of to find out... was to just cut out all the noise and stop performing all the time... and just listen to what was inside me.
我觉得总有一天你需要这么做。 See, I think a time comes when you need to do that.
现在，也许为了做到这一点，你必须去撒哈拉沙漠……也许你可以在家里做。 Now, maybe in order to do it, you have to go to the Sahara... and maybe you can do it at home.
但你得把噪音关掉。 But you need to cut out the noise.
是的。当然，就我个人而言，我只是，我通常不喜欢那种安静的时刻，你知道的。 Yeah. Of course, personally, I-l just, uh - I usually don't, uh - like those quiet moments, you know.
我真的不喜欢。 I really don't.
我的意思是，呃，我不知道这是不是，呃，弗洛伊德式的东西还是什么的-但是，呃，你知道，对无意识冲动的恐惧…或者我自己的攻击性什么的，但是… I mean, uh, I don't know if it's that, uh, Freudian thing or what- But, uh, you know, the fear of unconscious impulses... or my own aggression or whatever, but, uh...
如果事情变得太安静，我发现自己只是，呃，坐在那里…你知道，就像我们之前说的…我是说，不管我是一个人，还是和别人在一起… if things get too quiet, and I find myself just, uh, sitting there... you know, as we were saying before... I mean, whether I'm by myself, or-or I'm-I'm with someone else...
我只是，呃，我只是有一种感觉…天啊，我要被揭露了。 I just, uh - I just have this feeling of... uh, my God, I'm going to be revealed.
换句话说，我能胜任任何任务，呃…但我还不能胜任，仅仅做一个人。 In other words, I'm adequate to do any sort of a task, urn... but I'm not adequate, uh, just to - to be a human being.
我的意思是，换句话说，我不是，呃-如果我只是，呃，被困在那里，我不能做任何事情…但我能做的就是，嗯，在那里……好吧，我会失败的。 I mean, in other words, I'm not, uh - If I'm just, uh, trapped there and I'm not allowed to do things... but all I can do is just, urn, be there... well, I'll just fail.
我是说，换句话说…我可以通过任何其他类型的考试…而且，你知道，如果我付出了必要的努力，我甚至可以得到A……但我就是不 I mean, in other words, uh... I can pass any other sort of a test... and, you know, I can even get an “A” if I put in the required effort... but I just don't, uh -
我完全不知道如何通过这次考试。 I just don't have a clue how to pass this test.
我的意思是——我的意思是，当然，我知道这不是考试……但是，呃，我认为这是一个测试…我觉得我要挂科了 I mean - I mean, of course, I realize this isn't a test... but, urn, I see it as a test... and I feel I'm going to fail it.
我是说，这很可怕。 I mean, it's - it's very scary.
我只是觉得，完全茫然了。我是说-你知道，我可以想象一种生活，沃利…每一天都将成为一项难以置信的、巨大的、创造性的任务…… I just feel, uh, just totally at sea. I mean - Well, you know, I could imagine a life, Wally... in which each day would become an incredible, monumental, creative task...
我们不一定能做到。 and we're not necessarily up to it.
我是说，如果你想离开和你住在一起的人，你就会离开。 I mean, if you felt like walking out on the person you live with, you'd walk out.
如果你喜欢，你会回来的。 Then if you felt like it, you'd come back.
但同时，另一个人会对你的离开做出反应。 But meanwhile, the other person would have reacted to your walking out.
这将是一种充满感情的生活。 It would be a life of such feeling.
我的意思是，在我领导的研讨会中，令人惊奇的是……人们似乎很快就会陷入热情……庆祝，欢乐，惊奇，放纵，野性，温柔。 I mean, what was amazing in the workshops I led... was how quickly people seemed to fall into enthusiasm... celebration, joy, wonder, abandon, wildness, tenderness.
我们能忍受那样的生活吗? Could we stand to live like that?
是的，我认为是与另一个人接触的那一刻。 Yeah, I think it's that moment of contact with another person.
我是说，这就是我们害怕的。 I mean, that's what scares us.
我是说，和另一个人面对面的那一刻。 I mean, that moment of being face to face with another person.
我是说，现在-你不会认为这有那么可怕。奇怪的是，我们觉得它如此可怕。 I mean, now - You wouldn't think it would be so frightening. It's strange that we find it so frightening.
嗯，没那么奇怪。 Well, it isn't that strange.
我的意思是，首先，我们有很好的理由感到害怕。 I mean, first of all, there are some pretty good reasons for being frightened.
我的意思是，你知道，人类是一种复杂而危险的生物。 I mean, you know, the human being is a complex and dangerous creature.
我是说，真的，如果你开始享受每一刻? I mean, really, if you start living each moment?
天啊，这可是个不小的挑战。 Christ, that's quite a challenge.
我的意思是，如果你真的伸出手，真的和别人保持联系……嗯，这真的是值得努力的，我想，真的。 I mean, if you really reach out and you're really in touch with the other person... well, that really is something to strive for, I think, I really do.
是啊，不这么做就太可悲了。 Yeah, it's just so pathetic if one doesn't do that.
当然有问题，因为我认为，你离另一个人越近……那个人就会变得越神秘，越遥不可及。 Of course there's a problem, because the closer you come, I think, to another human being... the more completely mysterious - and unreachable - that person becomes.
我的意思是，你知道，你必须伸出手，你必须和他们来回走……你必须与之产生共鸣，但你却与鬼魂或其他东西产生了共鸣。 I mean, you know, you have to reach out, you have to go back and forth with them... and you have to relate, and yet you're relating to a ghost or something.
我不知道，因为我们是鬼魂。 I don't know, because we're ghosts.
我们是幻影。我们是谁? We're phantoms. Who are we?
那就是面对，面对你完全孤独的事实。 And that's to face, to confront the fact that you're completely alone.
接受孤独就是接受死亡。 And to accept that you're alone is to accept death.
你是说，因为当你孤独的时候，你会孤独地面对死亡。 You mean, because somehow when you are alone, you're alone with death.
我的意思是，没有什么能阻挡你的视线，或者类似的东西。 I mean, nothing's obstructing your view of it, or something like that.
正确的。 Right.
你知道，如果我理解正确的话，我想，海德格尔说过……如果你能充分体验自己的存在…你会经历那个人的死亡… You know, if I understood it correctly, I think, uh, Heidegger said... that, uh, if you were to experience your own being to the full... you'd be experiencing the decay of that being toward death...
作为你经历的一部分。 as a part of your experience.
你知道，在性行为中，会有完全忘记的那一刻……这太不可思议了。 You know, in the sexual act there's that moment of complete forgetting... which is so incredible.
然后在下一刻，你开始思考: Then in the next moment, you start to think about things:
排练剧本，你明天要做的事。 work on the play, what you've got to do tomorrow.
我不知道你是不是这样，但我想这一定很常见。 I don't know if this is true of you, but I think it must be quite common.
世界发展得很快。 The world comes in quite fast.
现在，这可能再次是因为我们害怕停留在遗忘的地方……因为那，再一次，接近死亡。 Now, that again may be because we're afraid to stay in that place of forgetting... because that, again, is close to death.
比如害怕睡觉的人。 Like people who are afraid to go to sleep.
换句话说，你们相互关联，你不知道下一刻会发生什么。 In other words, you interrelate, and you don't know what the next moment will bring.
不知道下一刻会带来什么……让你更接近死亡的感觉。 And to not know what the next moment will bring... brings you closer to a perception of death.
你看，这就是为什么我认为人们会有外遇。 You see, that's why I think that people have affairs.
我是说，你知道，在剧院里，如果你得到好评……有那么一瞬间，你觉得你的手已经拿到了什么东西。 I mean, you know, in the theater, if you get good reviews... you feel for a moment that you've got your hands on something.
你明白我的意思吗?我是说，这种感觉很好。 You know what I mean? I mean, it's a good feeling.
但这种感觉很快就消失了。 But then that feeling goes quite quickly.
你也不知道下一步该怎么做。 And once again you don't know quite what you should do next.
会发生什么呢? What'll happen?
好吧，搞外遇，在某种程度上…你真的能感觉到你在坚实的基础上，你知道。 Well, have an affair, and up to a certain point... you can really feel that you're on firm ground, you know.
这是一场性征服。有不同的问题。 There's a sexual conquest to be made. There are different questions.
她喜欢被人咬耳朵吗? Does she enjoy the ears being nibbled?
在一些优雅的法国餐厅里，你能多热烈地谈论叔本华? How intensely can you talk about Schopenhauer at some elegant French restaurant?
不管这是什么废话。 Whatever nonsense it is.
我想，这一切都是为了给你一种坚实的大地的假象。 It's all, I think, to give you the semblance that there's firm earth.
和一个人有一段持续多年的真正的关系-这完全是不可预测的。 Well, have a real relationship with a person that goes on for years - That's completely unpredictable.
然后你切断了所有与陆地的联系，你向未知的地方航行……未知的海洋。 Then you've cut off all your ties to the land, and you're sailing into the unknown... into uncharted seas.
我的意思是，你知道，人们对父亲、母亲、丈夫、妻子的印象……同样的原因——因为它们似乎提供了一些坚实的基础。 I mean, you know, people hold on to these images of father, mother, husband, wife... again for the same reason - 'cause they seem to provide some firm ground.
但是那里没有妻子。 But there's no wife there.
这是什么意思?一个妻子。 What does that mean? A wife.
一个丈夫。一个儿子。 A husband. A son.
一个婴儿牵着你的手……然后突然有个大块头把你从地上举起来…然后他就走了。 A baby holds your hands... and then suddenly there's this huge man lifting you off the ground... and then he's gone.
的儿子在哪儿? Where's that son?
其他的顾客似乎几个小时前就离开了。 All the other customers seemed to have left hours ago.
我们结账，André付了晚餐的钱。 We got the bill, and André paid for our dinner.
真的吗? Really?
我请自己坐了一辆出租车。 I treated myself to a taxi.
我骑车穿过城市街道回家。 I rode home through the city streets.
没有街道，没有建筑……这和我的记忆无关。 There wasn't a street there wasn't a building... that wasn't connected to some memory in my mind.
在那里，我和父亲一起买了一套西装。 There, I was buying a suit with my father.
在那里，我放学后在吃冰淇淋苏打水。 There, I was having an ice cream soda after school.
当我终于进来时，黛比已经下班回家了。我把和André共进晚餐的一切都告诉了她。 When I finally came in, Debby was home from work... and I told her everything about my dinner with André.