that a return to normal life would be premature, as cases
continue to soar. Right now on BBC News, it is time for Global
Christians. -- global questions.
Hello and welcome to London for this edition
of Global Questions, with me Zeinab Badawi.
Could we have a cleaner world after Covid-19?
National lock downs has led to reduced economic activity
and affected livelihoods across the world.
But, despite the pain, this has resulted in lower
levels of carbon emissions and better air quality.
So, many believe the time is now right for greater
action on climate change.
That's Coronavirus - A Better Environment For The Earth?
Well, I'm now inside the BBC headquarters
here in Central London.
And to bring you this edition of Global Questions,
as always, our two panellists and our audience who are going
to be asking questions, joining us via video link.
So, let me tell you who is in the hot seat this week.
Inge Andersson is executive director of the United Nations
environment programme.
Before that she ran the International Union
for Conservation of Nature.
She has more than 30 years experience in sustainable
and international development.
And Lily Cole is the British actress, writer
and climate activist.
Her new book, Who Cares Wins, Reasons For Optimism
In Our Changing World, examines different approaches
to the environment crisis.
Welcome to you both, and to our audience.
You join us from all over the world, and a solitary
round of applause from me, and remember you, too,
can join the conversation. It is #BBCGlobalQuestions.
Let's get down to our first question straightaway.
We are going to just outside Cairo in Egypt,
to Amira Zanoun - Amira, fire away.
Although the proportion of pollution has been decreased,
during the coronavirus pandemic, but also we witnessed
a significant increase in using disposable tools such
as face coverings and other things which are used
in restaurants and in takeaway meals, so how
is the government limiting these
and producing reusable and affordable alternatives?
Lily Cole, a lot of people worried about all that
plastic that is being used in the personal protection
and all the rest of it.
In the book I have a whole chapter where I look at plastic
and waste specifically.
There are lots of interesting things happening, especially
from the technology sector, that suggest we are finding
ways to build plastics and more environmentally friendly ways,
like bioplastics.
But also we are building waste systems that are more sensible,
and there have been some really ambitious policies,
maybe Inge can speak more about that, from the EU,
for example, and different countries around
the world, banning certain types of single-use plastics
and I would hope that we don't take a step backwards
and we keep moving forward in terms of how we bring
together the contradictions of needing single use,
needing hygienic products but also needing to think
about long-term health not just short-term health.
Inge, it is a race against time for so many governments
trying to tackle Covid-19.
They need all that plastic for the coverings and so on.
Lives are endangered.
But it is polluting the oceans.
What can we do, and can we do it quickly enough?
WHO says that about 89 million masks will be required every
month, so just think about those numbers.
That's plastic masks.
Then you add the cloth masks that are used by every
other person nowadays.
So, the issue here is getting the investment in for
the poorer countries so that they can incinerate,
and also, frankly, getting plastic out of the supply
chain, and here, a big shout out to Africa.
Africa was the first one stepping in to ban
single-use plastics, single-use bags, either
in Kenya although now I am not in Kenya, but Kenya,
Rwanda, 34 countries have banned single-use,
and more, and you can take lessons from that because it
is entirely possible.
Of course it is entirely possible, but is it going
to happen, and quickly enough?
Well, right now, no, because many countries don't
have incineration facilities.
Many small village hospitals all through the developing
world, don't even have this.
We have this open burning, where people are breathing
in these fumes, it is double, triple, quadruple bad
for the soil, the people, the oceans etc.
But we need to get there, and that's why investing
in circularity, first of all, and first of all, getting
it out of the supply chain, to circularity,
and through waste management and separation.
So entirely possible but still some question marks
I think about whether it can be achieved or not.
OK, Amira in Egypt, I hope that's answers your question.
Let us now go to Brazil, to Leon Hendrix.
Your question please, Leon.
Giving the socioeconomic impact of Covid-19, how much
will sustainability feature as part of the recovery?
Will governments be more focused on creating jobs
or the environment?
Is it an either or situation, Inger?
It is both.
This is not an either-or situation.
There was a time when people thought that, you know,
you could pollute your way to wealth, you could dispose
into the environment, stuff, and become wealthy and
then you could clean up later with the wealth that you have,
and some countries did, and they exported their dirt
to other countries.
That's no longer really possible, thankfully,
exporting your garbage to other countries.
So then what we need to do is, we need to invest
Investing in green opportunities, investing in
opportunities and understanding about how this is dependent on
nature, our health, our well-being and happiness, all
of that is important. So maybe also see that it is no longer
just people like Lily who say that, the World Economic Forum
in January, business leaders of the five of the top ten risks
they see to future profits and growth, are around nature, so
that is what we understand, you have to do both and that is
where the opportunities lie. Lily Cole, are you worried that
climate change agenda will be put on the back burner as
people raise to try to recover their economies? I'm in a
strange limbo between amazing hope, possibility, optimism and
nervousness and fear because I think we are in a pivotal
moment where anything is possible. The fact that a
policy idea like universal Basic income which a year ago
felt like a radical idea is being experimented with
communities around the world, the fact that Spain will
potentially adopt that as a whole country is extraordinary.
I give that as an example just to say I think there's the
potential for political ambition that we haven't seen
in the past, and it would be insane given all the scientific
warnings if we didn't use this moment to mitigate against the
bigger crises on the horizon, the environmental climate
change and biodiversity crisis, if we listen to the warning
around the risks of pandemics we wouldn't have got into this
situation and I agree with Inger it is fundamentally
financially unviable do not listen to science and take into
consideration risk management. Whether that actually happens,
and whether the politicians in power right now make those
choices, I'm not going to pretend I know or be a profit
of that, but I'm hopeful that some sense will come into
guiding the decisions that we make now. Leon, do you share
any optimism on the question you have asked? There needs to
be a focus on the environment and the economy and understand
that post Covid-19 there will be a lot of people that must go
you back to work and rebuilding the economy, but for me, I
agree with you guys, that it has got to be alongside the
environment. Thanks very much indeed. Let is go to the
capital of Slovakia, Bratislava and you Stella. I got that
right? Yes, you did. Do you think the pandemic will make
countries more likely to adopt the European Green Deal not
just in Europe but around the world? Bank you very much
indeed Stella, referring to the European Green Deal that the EU
has brought about to pursue economic growth in a way that
is clean and sustainable and to create jobs, is this something
that will catch fire in other parts of the world? Your
response, Inger? I think it is and it already has. We have
seen the approval of this massive new budget at European
level which has about 30% of that goes to climate change so
in Europe, it is a done deal, I think it will then slowly work
and to trade and consumer demands in manufactured goods
and what you and I buy off-the-shelf, and what we
would want to buy in terms of its footprint, its carbon
footprint, so this idea of investing in clean energy and
different types of refurbishing of housing, investing in public
transport, investing in greener and better farming, and
obviously climate action is huge. Before I come to Lily,
you say that it has got traction in other parts of the
world. We have seen for example the French government tying its
bailouts to green goals, it gave a lot of money to matter
when I said you have to meet these new carbon targets. Do
you want to see that principle applied in other parts of the
world? We are not necessarily seeing that. In the US, for
instance. Look, not every country and certainly
developing countries have had to do more modest stimulus
packages but even there, let me take Pakistan as an example.
They have this tree planting programme. They have repurposed
around 100 million, into creating green jobs for
planting trees, right now, this April and May. New Zealand, not
a poor country, has pushed out about 3 billion that includes
climate resilience etc. It is catching on and there is an
understanding that, in countries that have a great
economy already, that have dirty manufacturing, that they
need to leapfrog, and those that don't they want to jump
right over that polluting age. You are very optimistic, Inger!
Let's see if Lily Cole shares that optimism. Has the idea of
a Green Deal got universal appeal, in your opinion? I
think it's super exciting that it is coming this high up into
the political agenda. The Green New Deal has been bandied
around for some time with different incarnations of it,
whether it is slightly to the left or to the right, and it is
a fundamentally simple and important idea. If you are
going to rebuild the economy which we need to do to stay
within climate agreements and try to control the environment
for the next generation then we need to do that in a green way,
and I think the fact that what the EU are doing is super
inspiring and encouraging and hopefully will set up a
precedent for the rest of the world. That said, there has
been criticism around whether it is ambitious enough, I
co-signed a letter the week before written by four youth
climate activists demanding ambitious actions from EU
leaders, and I don't think it would probably meet that level
of ambition but it feels like a promising, sincerely promising
step in the right direction and hopefully a signal to the rest
of the world. Let's go back to Stella who asked the question
to see what she thinks. I hope you will be right, and I hope
that the Green Deal is going to win. She said that with a big
smile. So there we go. Let's go to India, and to Mania Kumar,
what do you want to ask our panellists? My question is when
the transmission to renewable energy is halted because of
rock put on oil prices and the need to get economies up and
running after the Covid-19 related shutdowns? Lily Cole?
Everyone of us has choices to make right now in terms of how
this is played out. We know we need to minimise fossil fuels,
to move towards renewables, because the science is very
clear that we will run into more of these crises if we
don't make those transitions. And I think that there are
encouraging signs that that movement as possible. Both from
the political level but also from an individual level where
you see decentralisation of energy, and there has been
movement towards decentralisation in Covid
generally where people focus more on local economies, on
growing their own vegetable patch, if you think about that
when it comes to build local energy cooperatives and take
local energy, then we'd be proactive players in the move
towards renewable. Inger, we've seen a reduction in the demand
for oil which has made prices plummet and fossil fuels, do
you think this will assist the transition to renewable energy?
I was too optimistic so I am afraid to continue but yes I
do, and here is the reason why. Who invest in these? Right now
it is rock bottom, yes. BP has had to do a massive download
evaluation of their company assets, when they are into the
future, and why? Because they know that the days are coming
for the end of hydrocarbons. And when we look at
institutional investors, those who help us get a pension, they
are beginning to disinvest in hydrocarbon, in oil and coal,
why? Because if you are 22 today and you begin to take out
a pension scheme, you want to be able to draw that when
you're 80, and maybe that not whether you will have a profit
at that time so we have seen market shift, about $5 trillion
of pension money has moved out of hydrocarbons and we have
seen for example fracking is down by one third, the fracking
industry in North America, so there are some movements.
Obviously part of that is to do with what we are seeing in the
lack of demand, back another thing is consumer choices and
market futures, so, yes, I remain optimistic. You do. I'm
going to have to puncture that optimism a little bit, to say
that a lot of the people who contacted us on social media
say actually, you know, there is not going to be that much of
a difference in their opinion. There seems to be more
scepticism that, you know, what has gone on, the plummeting
carbon emissions we have seen during the coronavirus pandemic
and the lockdown is, is going to be permanent. Every nation
is going on a different direction, so it depends on
what nations do, and so I think there's more scepticism
although there seems to be an acknowledgement that air travel
is going to remain depressed. Let's go to our next question,
David Scott in New York, New York. David, your question. Why
does it appear that the voices of indigenous people and people
of colour are always relegated to the margins on climate
change? Lily Cole, is it all a bit too Western centric? It is
an important question, thank you. Climate change is not
white. There have been people for hundreds of years trying to
protect their water, their land, indigenous communities
and those are not seen as environmental activist but I
have been at the forefront of environmental activism and they
still are today. There is a different question. You could
say that the communities first being heavily impacted by
climate change are often developing world countries,
people of colour, etc, marginalised communities. Now,
why does climate change appear as a white campaign? Is it
slightly different question which I think takes us to the
media and to our own biases in society which Covid has been
showing up. Why do we celebrate white activists, focus on white
activists, over and above the voices of other activists that
do exist and have existed? That is an important question to
ask. I think the last few months as we have seen with a
different protest movements are making maybe more awareness of
how interconnected these are, intersected with issues of
social justice, the environment and history of racial
injustice, and so, we went out that that narrative will
evolve. Inger, David Scott asks why climate change is so white?
The answer that Lily gave his right, there's a degree of
white privilege to asking these questions, but I also want to
say this. In Africa, and this is building on this question,
climate change is very much a real issue to the folks who
live there. And Nelson Mandela was one of the first together
with Ellen Johnson, who was the president of Liberia, the first
female president and others, to actually talk about climate
justice, and they found it something called The Elders and
together with Jimmy Carter and others, they focused on climate
justice and environmental justice and there, Professor
Vollard, a well-known African-American scholar, often
considered the father of environmental justice, is
precisely spot on. This is his issue that it is these who are
most marginalised are likely to have the least voice you are
getting hit the hardest, and that is the thing with climate
change. It is also the thing with pollution, and with dirty
water and also the thing with etc etc, so we have to hear all
of these voices, and ensure that they come through
mainstream media, but I will say where I live, climate
change, the politicians in Kenya are deeply concerned
about this, placing this as a high priority because they are
seeing locusts and rainfall changing and the circumstances,
and they become the victim of other peoples emissions and
therefore speak out on change. Our final question is from
India and Akash Choudry. Does the way that communities have
joined the world around the world make you optimistic
enough to believe that we are in for a radical change in the
way that the political environment will change once
the pandemic is over or will it go back to the way it was
before all of this really started? Inger, is this going
to bring about change or is it going to be back to business as
usual? There will be those who deny what has happened and you
want to flip back to what it was prior, and others who will
see and understand the science behind what has happened and
seek to move beyond. What I found remarkable about this is
that people listened to the science. It wasn't about fake
science, it was you need to stay at home, wash your hands.
We saw that the three major religions essentially did not
celebrate the way they normally do Easter, Ramadan and Eid as
well as the Jewish holy days. So there was an understanding
that science was speaking. On climate change, do you think
people are going to say, we have seen cleaner air, we are
connecting with nature, wildlife is re-emerging, we
want to keep it that way and hang on the gains. People saw
how easily nature forgives us our trespassers. You give
nature half of a break and it will bounce back, the air will
clean up, I think that was miraculous to many thought they
would never see the clarity of vision that they saw in India
or Beijing etc. I hope that they will take that knowledge
with them into their workplaces, into the
discussions, into the voting booths, over the dinner table,
to have these discussions about flicking that green switch and
insisting that the only way that we can get sustainable
futures for the next generation and the generation thereafter
is to invest in a green future, and if we don't, then we can
think about Covid as an overture for what is to come
because if we think Covid was badly don't even want to begin
to think about climate change, so I hope this is the way that
we will go, and the majority of people, there will always be
those who go in the other direction but the majority of
nations and people will take that third, and go for
sustainable and green. Lily Cole. So, in the introduction
to my book which was written before the crisis I use this
metaphor, of how two football teams in the UK for example,
Arsenal and Chelsea might be completely against each other,
their fans might be antagonistic to each other and
when England another country like France those same fans
will join together and stand side by side to try and beat
the enemy. It is a metaphor for, what is the enemy would
need, to come together as a global community and I was
talking about it in terms of the climate crisis, which does
impact every single human being living on this planet
regardless of their situation, and hoping that that might be
an enemy that we would band together to work against and I
think Covid has been that enemy, and it has been
extraordinary to see how the global community and local
communities have worked together and how much kindness,
solidarity and cooperation have emerged in response to the
crisis. Whether we take that metaphor and apply it
immediately, which would be my hope is questionable, but the
reality is that we cannot avoid the crisis. Cannot avoid it.
The size is very clear. The question is do you want to come
together as a global community to try to mitigate the risks
now or do we want to wait until later down the line and give
the crisis at that point, and hopefully at that point we will
still be community spirited and cooperative but it will be
harder to manage it. The very fact that these international
agreements exist, that Paris was signed, they do show that
international cooperation is happening. That is not to say
that everything is going in the right direction, there is not
enough ambition, certain players are not acting in the
way we would want or help them to be, but we can pat ourselves
on the back and recognise we have built an international
framework that is trying to solve this crisis and work
together. Lily Cole and Inger Anderson and to my question,
that is over in this edition of Global Questions, I think we
have brought you some thoughts on the unexpected positive
benefits of the terrible Covid crisis for our planet. Remember
we have a programme that brings you the trend lines behind the
headlines. Thank you wherever you are watching this
programme, and if you want to be part of the programme,
submit a question to the panel, you can e-mail us at... Until
next time, from me, Zeinab Badawi, and the rest of the
Global Questions team, goodbye.