Harlem New York City in ever-evolving
community and a touchstone for American
culture my guest was born here in 1919
at age 12 she started working performing
as a dancer and she hasn't stopped how
many people at 90 years old can make a
living involved with dancing me and in
her life Norma Miller's made history as
the queen of Swing dancing she reigned
through an historic era at Harlem Savoy
Ballroom in the 1930s when pulsating
big-band swing music brought blacks and
whites together on the dance floor and
over the years she also fought the color
barrier alongside friends like Louis
Armstrong and Sammy Davis jr. we met at
Harlem's historic Lenox lounge
New York's last surviving Club from the
swing era where Norma was displaying yet
another Talent stand-up comedy maad to
me dating men my age
this sucker be chasing me around the
room and by the time he caught me he
done forgot what he was chasing before
we sat down to talk about our
groundbreaking career and what's kept
her going all these years non-stop she's
got the beat Norma yeah welcome to my
generation thank you
now first thing I'm wondering about is a
lot of people start working in their
youth they're 12 years old 13 years old
they could be a ventriloquist they could
be working on the farm there could be a
painter but very few are still doing it
80 years later what has been the driving
force that's kept you going all these
years because it's the only thing
anybody paid me to do I couldn't do
anything else so I've danced all my life
because I always got paid I was a
professional dancer who got paid and
that was why I continued doing it and it
was always through dancing that I was
able to make a living so when I wasn't
physically able to perform certain ways
I began producing dancing writing about
dancing creating dancing so dancing has
always been a part of my life up until
I'm 90 well okay but beyond that beyond
the paycheck because
don't like to get a patron there has to
be some other force within you that's
kept you going all these years because I
love doing what I was doing
see when you love doing what you're
doing it's not work it's a joy and
dancing was always a joy and of course I
came along with just the best music in
the world I never wanted it to end so I
kept creating they see over and over and
over again and that's basically why even
today I still create basic but simple is
that I love the music the music is very
perform and when I watch you perform I I
can see the music in you so let me ask
you this when your swing dancing right
go back let's go when your swing dancing
you're flying through the air you're
sailing across the floor what does that
feel like because we were creating
something in America that no one has
ever done before we created a dance here
in Arlen so we were the best at it you
got to remember when you're the best at
it you just don't want it to end but
physically what does it feel like it's
right because we were in heaven we were
the best remember but at the top of the
top of the chart we played Radio City we
played the capital we played Holly you
can't get better than that so we never I
always tried to find a way to keep it
going what what made you fall in love
with swing dancing what was there about
the movement the music that made you
fall in love that's music that mo the
whole swing era was just the most
perfect era from 1935 the first Harvest
Moon ball we had here in New York it was
just the greatest music in the world
nothing ever taught that nothing ever
nothing but they remember nobody was
ever better than we were
let's compare swing dancing to other
kinds of dances in terms of degree of
difficulty ballet top modern dancing how
to swing stand up well you've got to
understand when I was in a swing dancer
and the dancing sort of faded out I
decided to in
roll in one of the greatest schools here
in New York called a new dance group
what was created by the top teachers in
New York so I became a student of these
dances and I studied and you're home Oh
child's Weidman and then I ran into a
dancer called Martha Graham and it was
the most excruciating
time in my life that I decided after six
months with Martha Graham Hannya home
and the new dance group I quit and went
back up here to Harlem and work back at
smalls paradise and Sun back dancing
jazz which was the type of music I
danced to and it was the only dance for
me and I've been doing it ever since you
think that swing dancing is more
difficult than modern dancing dancing is
more difficult swing is natural it's not
a problem but when you have to go to
what Martha Graham was doing that to me
was the worst that ever I just never
encountered such pain I mean I quit and
I went back to jazz and I was doing it
ever since
all right let's let's talk about another
component of your longevity another
component of your success there have
been recent psychological studies that
are linking happiness success and
longevity are you have you always been a
naturally happy person or at some of you
trained yourself no dancing always was a
happy moment for me so do that what you
love it's not a job asked Louie
Armstrong he'll tell you the same thing
it's when you enjoy doing what you're
doing
you don't even know you're doing it what
would you say that you learned from
Louis Armstrong that enabled you to
continue going the way you've been going
I met Louie on Sparrow in 1939 in a show
here in New York at the city center
called swing of their dream and the show
was the biggest flop that ever happened
on Broadway and I mean it was a big
Turkey and I was crying because I
couldn't believe a show like this could
fold and it was Louis Armstrong who said
to me never cry about a show
baby there's always gonna be another one
and that was 1939 and how has that
served you all my life how so because
there's always going to be another show
how many shows that I do since then I
was with Duke Ellington jump for joy
which was a great time and it was I was
with Louie Armstrong and then I was with
base E which was just the greatest time
and nothing could ever compare to Count
Basie when you have an opportunity to
dance to that music it was just
wonderful
someone watching right now says you know
I want to be doing the same thing
Norma's doing but in my field I'm not
I'm not a dancer I'm doing something
else I want to keep going until I'm 90
91 92 93 what kind of like psychological
tips advice what kind of tips would you
offer to somebody who wants to really go
nonstop like you you have to love what
you're doing the word is love that's all
it is
simple as that remember we created
something here in Harlem that was never
created anywhere else in the world I was
born here I was born to this music and I
was a part of it and I was a part of his
progress and remember I always made a
living doing it I still make a living
doing it I mean how many people at 90
years old can make a living involved
with dancing me you have to hire me you
got to pay me and they pay me to go all
around the world so money has been a big
motivating factor all the way you got to
pay the rent
earn in New York you gotta pay the rent
the landlord said mr. Miller we're gonna
have to raise your rent I said good
because I can't he said alright we will
evict you I have been evicted so many
times I had drapes to match the
sidewalks had to throw in the comic
that's funny
Bill Cosby says that you're a very funny
comedian where did that come from
I was thrown into the mix because of red
fox red said your legs are getting stiff
your knees are gonna be going you but
you've got to learn to tell jokes now he
had a club in Los Angeles at the La
Cienega
this was the beginning
the first black comics making the
breakthrough now I'm thrown into the mix
there's Bill Cosby Richard Pryor Flip
Wilson this is every night at the red
fox club and I'm their emcee and I'm
learning how to be the person that can
talk and tell jokes because they always
had a Monday night was open that was an
open mic out of this came Murray
Langston to unknown comic kippah Dada
Johnny dark Cheech and Chong and I was
there bringing and Richard Pryor I'm
bringing them on stage so I'm learning
how to take dancing and apply it to
comedy and that's what I did I began to
be a comedian and we were the first all
woman comedy special that was done out
in Los Angeles
out of that came sound of Bernard
dancing comedy and comedy a lot of
people could not make that connection oh
well you have to make it because comedy
is something that I learned from read
and I wrote his first book the Redd Foxx
encyclopedia black humor but I love
being around the comedian's because now
I'm not dancing as much but I'm learning
another profession and of course then of
course I began writing about it I'm I
used to sit in the back and write my
material and I like read said write a
line every day and what it helped every
day seven days you'd have seven lines
thirty days you've got thirty lines and
then you don't have to mess with my AK
and I was the first opening act for it
and now that's what brings you to the
Lenox lounge right yes doing stand-up
here at the Lenox lounge for Paul Mooney
how's that for you thrilled I want to do
it so badly I taken because he has the
great oil he has my audience and this is
what I do on the side I mean I've always
done comedy I write comedy and I write I
write I write music I write songs cuz
I've never had a Grammy so I want to go
to the Grammys one day and hope my song
is chosen beyond the paycheck yes do
beyond loving what you're doing yes did
what
one more thing that's been a driving
force in your life poverty you got to
work not to be poverty Phyllis Diller
said it so it's a it's like she kept
going literally a fear of being poor yes
yes can you imagine being 80 and 90 and
pull in New York City scary yes indeed
so I keep looking for gigs and please
hire me Norma the concept of retirement
and Norma Miller don't go in the same
sentence no no it's no that it's not
even an alternative believe me well let
me ask you this but retired to what you
see as long as you can do something and
you can reach out what I love most is
I'm on stage with kids my grandchildren
I can relate to my grandchildren on
stage they could take dance like me and
I go every year to Louie Armstrong jazz
camp and their kids 14 and 15 years old
and they relate to me you don't get old
when you have that kind of response we
work with kids every summer and it's you
can't believe the joy I feel when I hear
our music being played by the young
generation coming up because at one time
we almost lost it we lost our music I
mean people are talking about rap
there's no music but we got kids in New
Orleans that's playing Louie Armstrong
music and we can't let that go we have
to keep that going and there's 15 and 14
and 13 year old kids playing Louis
Armstrong's music that gives me another
life you said something that really
jumped out at me
you said you don't get old you don't
you're doing that expand on that because
you don't because you realize when you
can reach beyond two and three
generations and they can dig what you're
talking about that's a special that's a
very special thing
and I get rejuvenated with them
especially when I had our music being
played by 14 and 15 year old kids the
most marvelous thing this year
we had a group of kids in new in New
Orleans here was a 15 year old boy named
John Michaels I don't know where he came
from is he channeling Louie Armstrong
just like him did he see he scat he
played trumpet I mean this is a 15 year
old kid and I mean not just playing
playing good but we have a whole lot of
kids like that oh it is the master
that's normal when when Duke Ellington
says don't mean a thing if it ain't got
that swing yes what's that mean to you
it means just that because it ain't
swingin it ain't listen if you don't dig
swing baby you don't dig fried chicken
and how could you live in America and
not eat fried chicken somehow swing Duke
Ellington and fried chicken are all in
one sentence for Norma Miller definitely
because the greatest invention we ever
created to this world was fried chicken
uncle of course the colonel is getting
credit a white man in a white suit in a
kitchen frying any chicken that's very
funny
one other thing I when I asked you about
the non-stop nature of your life your
mother's quote what was it I used to say
to her you see we had a very my father
died the month before I was born and my
mother was an immigrant my mother was 20
years old she's a immigrant with two
children and it was st. Philip's Church
that sorta was was helping her and I
used to say to my mother you know how
did you how did you do it I mean the
difficulty you know we're talking about
1919 1920 I mean this was a very
difficult time for black women in Harlem
and my mother used to simply say listen
when you ain't got a horse you write a
cow and that was always my mother's
statement and it really is true you find
a way how you do it you don't know but
you find a way that's been a driving
force always through my life that's my
new book when you ain't got a horse
you ride a cow you've got to keep going
I mean I got to live to be a hundred to
get out of debt I wanna do another
interview to find out how you got that
far in debt alright let's talk about
some groundbreaking things in your life
I mean truly groundbreaking things at
the Savoy Ballroom the 30s blacks and
whites dancing alongside each other
sometimes dancing with each other first
place in the world yeah police didn't
like it nobody liked it well the people
were dancing like oh yeah but I mean you
see you had the mohrís of the South
trying to put their Maurice here in New
York City and they would try to accuse a
prostitution and all this kind of thing
in their pocket their Savoy Ballroom
but the Savoy Ballroom was one of the
but the best run places in New York I
mean you never heard of any
confrontation it doesn't work bottom
they didn't allow it and consequently
this didn't rub good but a lot of people
because my friend Ernie said when he
came to New York and he would get in a
cab to come uptown to the Savoy Ballroom
the cab driver would say to him don't go
because you know how they are up in
Harlem they do they robbed you and all
this kind of and this was from his own
mouth I heard it so this was a thing
that was set up to just to keep people
from coming to this avoid but you
couldn't stop it
well it's not a driving force we had the
best music in the world we had the best
bands in the world and we had the best
people in the world were you aware at
the time when the blacks and whites were
dancing next to each other and sometimes
dancing together that you were making
history no we never thought about it but
T we didn't go outside the ballroom it
never but never thought we never thought
about the fact that it was something
that was different in America we thought
the Savoy was America you never when I
was a 15 year old girl I never even
thought about the fact that because all
my life I've always seen white people in
Harlem that's all you saw at night it
was the furs and the diamonds so I
always thought white people always
belong to Harlem
so was it it wasn't
I began to realize there was an issue in
our country remember I was in my 20s
before I even knew the meaning of
segregation we didn't have it in Harlem
because I never went out of other
groundbreaking things you've done the
first female black act to play Las Vegas
the first female black act to play Miami
facing Jim Crow laws Oh basing prejudice
what did it take inside you to keep
going and prevail well it didn't bother
us because remember when we hit Miami
that just dig I'm amongst Jackie
Robinson Roy Campanella Thurgood
Marshall Joe Lewis the best of the best
we are sitting around all the time I
mean they came they came around us
everybody wanted to be where we were so
it didn't bother us to the place where
we felt that we were neglected you had
an issue in a place where we knew it was
going to eventually be it was going to
change and we knew and we was working on
that and that's what they're good
Marshall and then we're doing how would
you say that you Norma Miller were a
force in the civil rights movement in
your own modest way well we kicked down
doors we kicked down doors we you see
some of the forth some of the pioneers
like Louie Armstrong was the one the man
that put a face on jazz he was accepted
and once he gave us he gave white people
the respect white people gave him the
respect to accept him well when he
walked through remember he didn't come
through alone he came through with when
Sammy Davis walked through Las Vegas he
didn't walk alone remember when he
opened the door a lot of us went through
and they couldn't and Vegas just didn't
accept the fact that there was going to
be a separation that killed this this
segregation thing in Vegas this happened
all over when Joe Lewis became champion
of the world he opened the doors and
when he retired undefeated champion of
the world in Miami
I was sitting right
and there the place was loaded with
reporters everywhere
this was Jonah was the champion and he
was they were saying to him Joan you
you're retiring what are you gonna do
now you're gonna play golf and he turned
to one of the black dancers and said
what day do they allow us to play golf
and they said they allow us to play golf
on Wednesday and Joe turned to the
reporters that I'll be playing on
Wednesday these things gave you pride to
know the best there was nobody was
better than Joe Lewis Norma what about
the other side of pride that the anger
of literally having to deal with the
prejudice having to deal with working at
the Flamingo a Las Vegas and then the
bothers because remember when we played
Vegas and that last show when the bus
pulled up and took the whole show base
you know back to the west side everybody
came to the west side because we were
jumping all night you know we had a lot
of fun we think was bad but we had a lot
of fun a lot of people didn't like what
was going on but we knew there was gonna
be changes there was no question about
it but it's very evident to me that you
are in possession of a hugely positive
attitude yes I was born in New York see
I was 20 years old before I even
understood the meaning of segregation
where's that positive attitude come from
not everybody who's born in New York has
that positive attitude but you don't
have that feeling of I'm not as good as
you are I mean you just never we just
didn't have that kind of feeling
remember we were the best of that ever
did it and everybody came to us so we
was not neglected at all everybody
wanted to do what we did I'm not trying
to put you like one nice but I'm just
curious is there any way you can analyze
your own ability to be so positive in
the face of what really infuriated never
had we never had to face it remember
wherever we were we had more white
people following us in the world I mean
I'm sorry but you people wanted to
always a be around us
the people that wanted fun and we had a
lot of fun fun you couldn't imagine
traveling with Basie even Sinatra said
he never went on a bus again until he
traveled with bass in them again it's
the kind of fun that you outside world
didn't affect us because we knew listen
Martin Luther King and them they were
busy taking care of it that was their
job we used to send them blankets and
whatnot and that's all we can do I'm not
the I never marched with him because I
wasn't about to March because I never
went into the state of Georgia
I never went understated Mississippi I
still haven't gone into the state of
Mississippi things have changed you know
I'm gonna mention three names and I want
you to tell me what about these three
great black performers was
groundbreaking because you're a
groundbreaker with swing dancing let's
start with Sammy Davis jr. what was
groundbreaking about Sammy Davis world's
greatest entertainer I mean he was
better than Sinatra you know but listen
Dean Martin said roses are red vital to
the pink if I had your talent I wouldn't
have to drink nobody was better than
seven so the best of Vegas recognized
Sammy you know what that means in a
place like Las Vegas when you're the
best and it just was nobody better so
when the dough when when he couldn't go
someplace Sinatra nem just wouldn't
allow it
so he broke the barrier for entertainers
in Las Vegas Lena Horne didn't do that
Sammy did that because of Sinatra next
groundbreaking Louie Armstrong oh well
he was just the people's day ambassador
he was just the best I mean the world
recognized Louie Armstrong he's the most
recognized voice most we just reach day
we went to a dizzy the in Lincoln Center
and the wonderful world of Louis Lewis
music and this packed
I mean his music it's just he was uh he
was one open all the doors for all of us
all of us one more groundbreaker
Duke Ellington oh you're talking about
the elegant elegant I mean who was
better I mean he was our Mozart I mean I
don't think Duke ever thought it and
being black he was just like no one else
and he was far above in mental well
mentally Duke Ellington always thought
when we were round to Killington you in
the presence of the Lord and when we
used to lead Duke Ellington we used to
do this maybe in that leopard and that
leopard robe anywhere I mean he was just
like no one else I've never been around
anybody like Duke Ellington has 42
strength of discipline strength of
character and this fortitude and all
that means helped you to prevail all
these years I think that goes into it
and also knowing who you are and not
being not feel demean in front of a
person because of race race just never
had that kind of problem with me I
always been accepted everywhere I go I
tried to show people that we have a
certain kind of class and I just never
had a lot of problems not racial wise
anyway how about your own personal
habits and obviously obviously I always
had good happens yeah yeah all good
happens I try to live good because I'm
time trying to live to be a hundred
so from here or not I gotta be careful
but listen I have a good life I feel
wonderful
good good help and I don't do things
that will destroy your health take care
of the body and the body will take care
of you but now if you do things to your
body well then you're destroying you're
limiting your time because then you're
in your you're taking a chance on the
outside things like diabetes high blood
pressure these are the things and stress
these are the things that destroy the
body I thought live doing those things
I've outlived anxiety and I just don't
have the problems most people had well
how did you deal with anxiety
when you were before ya lived it danced
it exercised
dance music Norma before we say goodbye
give me the beat give me the beat give
me the beat get on the beat bill okay
I'm on the beat now this is bill Boggs
okay it's Norma Miller at the Lenox
lounge for my generation now let's dance
Thank You Norma thank you