We got in a big fight on Saturday.
So tell me.
[laughs]
We were in bed
and it was really early,
like, maybe 6:00 a.m. --
-6:00 a.m. -Mm-hm.
I got up to go to the bathroom,
and when I came back
Lauren was, like,
on my side of the bed.
I just said,
"Scoot over."
And...
she, like, kind of moved
and then I was like, "You're --
like, you're on my pillow."
and so I, like, got my --
she, like, lifted up,
I got my pillow,
I put my head on the pillow,
and then she put her pillow down.
And I was like, "Now you're on my head."
And she yelled and was like --
Yelled saying...?
"You're all the way on that side of the bed
an-- over in your corner
and I woke up on this side of the bed
and now I just want to snuggle you."
And I said, "Okay, if I'm on the --
in the corner,
you don't get to just come and take my corner."
-Mm-hm. -And then, she got...
real mad...and...
told me to go fuck off
and grabbed her pillows
and slept on the couch
for the rest of the morning.
♪groovy bass and drum beat♪
[knife slice]
[cat meows]
I had woken up and went to the restroom...
and I hadn't really gotten to see her
or connect with her.
And so I think I was really craving, like,
just some physical touch and attention --
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Lauren] and so I got back into bed and I...
-snuggled up to her. -Mm-hm.
I will add that,
when we go to sleep,
we snuggle every night.
But it's been a thing.
-It has been a thing about -- -Through our relationship...
that she's been like, "Get away."
Like -- like --
Oh, come on.
-I've never said -- -Well, no, not "Get away."
-But it's been like -- -Wait.
Let's do each their own version.
Okay.
Say your version unedited.
I-- I-- I feel it is like...
"Get away, I need like, my space."
-Mm-hm. -Or...
perhaps I am, like,
scooting over in the night --
-Mm-hm. -but...
She -- like, no matter where we start off the --
the evening at,
when I wake up, I kind of, like...
-want to be near her. -Mm-hm.
I think she'll say that, like, she said...
to scoot over in, like,
-a normal tone -- -Mm-hm.
It didn't really feel like a normal tone.
It felt like...?
-Rejection. -Mm-hm.
So let's -- so just -- just --
just for the sake of, like, understanding
the subtext of these kind of dynamics,
if you had to say what it feels like
if you go a notch under, like,
the rational part of it,
wh-- what --
what's goin' on there for you?
It's like...
God damn it, I'm just, like --
I just want
-to be near you -- -Mm-hm.
and you're, like,
-pushing me away -- -Mm-hm.
and I f-- I feel like I get, like...
-snapped at -- -Mm-hm.
As if...?
I don't know.
Like, maybe that I'm...
selfish or...
-too much? -too much.
-Maybe. -Mm-hm.
Like I'm, like, smothering, or --
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Okay, like...
what did you hear Lauren say?
What's Lauren's ultimate experience
of this kind of --
That I was attacking her
first thing in the morning
for trying to snuggle me.
No.
That's not what she said.
What I heard,
an-- and tell me if I'm capturing something,
what I heard Lauren say is...
"I'm coming to you with my...
want for love and affection...
and you're rejecting me as if I'm too much.
It is too much.
Hold on, hold on.
D-- don't -- stay --
you're moving back to yourself.
You know, this -- this business of, like,
coming close to someone
is a place of, like, great vulnerability.
To feel like you're doing it wrong there
has the potential to be, like,
deeply wounding.
-Mm-hm. -Humiliating.
But is that --
Lauren, is that --
is there more to this?
Yeah, I mean, obviously,
it has to be.
Like, the way I reacted...
was...
over-the-top.
[Sarah] This wasn't even the fight.
The fight lasted all fuckin' day --
-Mm-hm. -because...
she chose to, like, get super angry
-Mm-hm. -and just keep...
digging
and start bringing up past shit.
And all I had been saying was
"Gimme some space."
-I mean, I don't -- -It feels like...?
She's ignoring...
-my boundary. -Mm-hm.
And it feels like she's ignoring it because...
'Cause she just wants what she wants
and she doesn't give a shit where I'm at.
-I see. -Or what I want.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I mean, it's indicative of a bigger problem.
Like, this is...
how a lot of things operate -- [laughs]
in our relationship.
Meaning?
There has been, like,
this sense of entitlement in the past...
that we --
has been, like, at the core of our problems.
-And -- -Tell me about that.
[Sarah] Lauren is the breadwinner
in our family.
In the very beginning, it was like...
I was her assistant, because...
I didn't have...
Like...
I was...figuring my shit out,
job-wise.
It's not like we had a conversation and I'm like,
-"You're my assistant." -No, I didn't say that.
But that's how you treated me.
But since you're not the one making money, then...
-Then I should be doing -- -you should help.
It was expected that, like,
I was gonna get up every morning before her
and make the coffee and give it to her
and when she came home from work,
I was gonna have dinner on the table,
and, like...
I was gonna do all the laundry, and like --
that I was gonna be there to do everything.
I -- I don't think that's totally true.
I think there --
there was a bit of...
like...
I'm trying to...
help us survive and, like --
-By making money. -get this new job...
and make money and...
I needed help.
We have struggled with...
this.
I felt, to an extent, that...
yes, if someone's going to sacrifice some time...
it makes sense for...
the person who's not...
-earning -- -Mm-hm.
close -- like --
close to as much --
like, not even close to, like --
who's not --
in the grand scheme of things
wasn't earning --
wasn't keeping us afloat, even in the -- the slightest
that that -- that made sense.
I have --
But there's not --
I mean, you didn't invent
that paradigm, right?
-Right. -That money equals...
power...
and money equals some privilege
in the relationship.
And it is something that we have --
we have -- we have talked through --
-Mm-hm. -and I have worked on --
-Yeah. -and in has been very,
very, very hard to...
-switch that mindset -- -Mm-hm.
In the past, I would say "entitlement."
-Yes. -Mm-hm.
Today...
it's...
I just feel like it kind of comes
from a place of...
"I don't know how to keep up."
-Mm-hm. -I-- I-- I--
I am... [sighs]
I'm nervous...
when there's dishes...
-around. -Mm-hm.
Because you don't want to do them.
-Can I ask a question? -I mean, like...
It's not because I don't want to do them.
I don't mind doing the dishes.
I just -- I--
I just don't have that much
time that often
And -- and -- I--
I don't -- I don't know --
[Orna] And maybe you don't feel like
it's your job?
Because you're more of the breadwinner?
[snaps] Ding-ding-ding.
[Sarah] If we're working --
let me ask you this.
If you and I are both working
the same amount of hours --
Mm-hm.
whose responsibility is it to clean the house?
And to make sure shit gets done?
Ideally, we should both split it.
When does that happen?
-Not that often. -Well, can I just ask...
I know it's not a...
PC question to ask, but...
and does it matter how much money
each person is bringing?
I think...
[sighs]
in my gut, I feel like yeah.
It... [sighs]
♪funky music♪
[bark]
[barking]
-How are you? -Hi.
-Hello. -Hi.
Oh, it's cool in here.
I sought therapy for us
because I believe that I wanted
a renegotiation
and without help,
he wasn't gonna take my...
opinion...
with as much respect or...
weight as his own.
Mm-hm.
I bring things to you
-that mean a lot to me -- -Mm-hm.
and you...
are very --
-Dismissive? -Yeah.
Do you recognize any of this kind of --
[laughs] I understand why she feels this way.
No, but do you recognize that in yourself?
I recognize w-- why...
she sees that.
So I -- I know what she's talking about --
[Orna] Yeah.
but it'd be, like, me...
you know, telling you what
-one side of this is -- -Mm-hm.
and then thinking it's the whole side.
Alright, I got it, yeah.
If you look at it that way,
that's what you're gonna see.
If you look at it a different way,
you'll see something else.
-Right, okay, so the -- -There was --
Wait, wait, stop.
So this is exactly what I --
this is exactly what I was talking about.
I'll say...
"Don't say that, that's mean" --
-Mm-hm. -and -- and then
the other si--
so here's the one side is
"That's mean,
those are ugly words you're throwin' at me" --
-Mm-hm. -Or like making me feel...
small,
but the other side is,
that you can't wait to show me,
is what a great and supportive
husband you are
and how supportive and da-da-da,
which just makes my side...
irrelevant,
which is your whole point of doing it.
Baby, that -- that was a terrible example.
You are being
mean to me.
I already said that I understand
why you feel that way.
But you don't!
-Yeah, I do. -You absolutely don't.
-I still do. -Okay, but if --
I did when I said it and I still do [indistinct]
Okay, then so what part of that
is on you?
But -- but what is --
what --
just say, what part is on you?
Well -- [sighs]
the reason -- a --
a part -- uh...
Look.
It -- it can happen in certain situations --
-Mm-hm. -um...
But the constant in those other situations
is the way that you're approaching it.
-This is-- -Well, that's a dynamic.
That's a couple dynamic.
I mean you're saying to Annie,
"Look, there's a part that is yours,
which is the way you approach me.
Mm-hm.
What part's yours?
[Orna] But say,
"And here's where I can meet you.
-Here's my part." -Yeah, I mean --
Look, I'm struggling to find what that is
-because -- -Come on.
You can.
No, no.
I'm being sincere when --
You already have it.
Your -- your --
it's not missing from your relationship.
[Orna] Then just say it again.
Even if you're doing that effort,
you could just say,
"Here's what I'm trying to do."
Here's what I'm already
successful at doing.
That's not the same thing.
I think you'll get way more traction
if you say,
rather than say
"I've been doing it all this time,"
is if you say,
"I can try harder...
to...
not be dismissive.
What triggers me
is when you talk to me in this way or that way,
but I still wanna keep making the effort to --
-Mm-hm. -Be respectful."
Yeah, that's insulting.
-To whom? -To me.
-That -- that's a -- -Okay --
that's a ridiculous thing to say to me.
Bear that insult.
It'll be good for your marriage.
No, I won't do it
and I don't want it.
I-- If you could --
if you were to give me
everything I ever wanted by doing that,
I'd say no.
I'd rather have nothing
than have that.
[Orna] It feels like we're going nowhere, in a way,
because of his...
defensiveness and...
he won't make use of anything
that I say and very little
-of what his wife says. -Mm-hm.
So it feels like I'm up against this, like,
armor of resistance.
Uh-huh.
His claim is that everyone...
gets dismissed...
-at various points -- -In the world, in life --
-In the world. -Yeah, right.
-And that she should just -- -No, I know.
Yeah.
She -- he says, "She should suck it up.
-I give her so much -- -Mm-hm.
and we would have peace.
[Orna] This is where it gets wrapped up in feminism.
-Yeah. -Like, is it
a legit thing...
to...
say "Okay, this marriage will keep its peace...
if she gives up on a certain kind of --
-No, I hear what you're saying. -recognition of her
-subjectivity. -I hear what you're saying.
And, uh,
it is a bad choice for her.
Whether he can...
get beyond it,
that would only have to do with
the treatment that he's in with you.
There's no other way he's gonna get beyond it.
♪soft tense strings ♪
[video game noises]
♪♪♪
She wants me...
to be attentive to her at all times.
She wants me to...
respond to her at all times.
Um...
She wants...
more...
than I'm able to give her.
-Mm-hm. -Period.
Okay, what -- what's the more --
-Attention, attention. -Attention.
Okay.
I-- I can't please her.
I-- I don't...
I'm not -- I don't have what she needs.
I can't give it to her.
I'm -- I'm just really angry,
sad, and frustrated all at once,
I guess.
If I say to him, "Let's go out.
Let's do something.
Let's go to brunch or something," he'll --
he -- he -- he won't do it.
I feel like I'm -- I'm...
chasing something or someone --
-Mm-hm. -And I--
that's -- I-- I'm not -- that's --
I don't want to.
Do you --
do you want to say something now?
So, if we have this routine
where we'll -- we'll go out on the weekend
and we'll do brunch and we're hanging out together
and we'll do this routine...
17 consecutive weekends in a row
and the one weekend where I don't want to
you know, this is the tirade that I get.
The last time that we actually did that routine
was probably la-- in the summer some time ago.
-And if that -- -We do it all the time .
Let me -- how could we have done it
if you were't waking up
to go to the gym with me
and I was going to the gym
-by myself? -But we hang out.
-When? -On the weekend.
Name it. Name it.
-We'll go eat. -Name it.
-Every Saturday and Sunday.
You know, I work with couples a lot...
so let me see if I can save you the time
of arguing about facts about what happened.
[Elaine] Mm-hm.
It doesn't work.
Like, arguing "Did it happen this way?
Did it happen that way?
Did you --
did we go 17 times
or did we not go since...
August?"
You're not going to go anywhere
with that kind of argument.
Instead, let's think about
what's really of importance
to the two of you about this.
-Mm-hm. -Right?
What's really at the heart of it.
I think...
he wants it to be a situation
where we live with each other
and not interact.
That's what it feels like.
He thinks sitting on a couch like this
just staring into the box
is us interacting.
And so anything outside of that,
for him, is effort that he does not want to...
exert.
I'm assuming you're not gonna agree
with that description, right?
-No. -No.
So that's not it.
That -- I-- I--
that's what I feel.
That's what I feel is --
That's what you feel, but that's --
you're not --
you have to find a place where
you actually agree on what's going on
between the two of you because
you're characterizing it in a very extreme way.
You're each getting polarized
into your own extreme version.
Let's try to find out what's really going on,
not your...
fears of what's going on.
We used to go out a lot more.
We used to go on a lot of trips.
We spent more time together
and we had fun together,
and we laughed together.
And, um...
-not so much anymore. -Mm-hm.
But I can't put a finger on it.
But you're saying something changed in your...
way of being in the relationship?
Something definitely changed.
And you're saying in --
in how much you've wanted to please?
I think for me,
there's a lot of, um...
I don't want to reward
the behavior that --
because, you know, I--
there are a lot of times I feel like...
um...
you know, she's done or said something
that I don't like
or she acts in a way I don't like...
I just don't want to reward that behavior anymore.
-I'm -- I'm not -- -So you...
-retreat -- -I guess that's --
as a way to punish?
Not as a way to punish, it's just --
Well, "not reward" is punish.
Okay.
-Maybe that's it. -It's -- you're having --
you're trying to have an impact
by retreating.
A passive impact by saying
"I don't want this beha--
This -- I don't approve
of this behavior."
-Yes. -Yeah.
And the behavior you don't approve of is...?
[sighs] I don't know,
she gets mad all the time.
She's always mad at something.
She's always yelling at something.
You know, anger is rarely a primary emotion...
right?
Usually, anger is, like, some kind of
defense against something else.
Feeling humiliated,
feeling sad
feeling hurt...
You know, people don't like to...
feel vulnerable, so they put up anger.
So your way of avoiding the fighting...
is to try to minimize interaction --
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[Orna] Like, you could be offering more
and you're withholding maybe because
you're resentful or...
Yeah.
So what if,
when you want to withdraw
-and minimize interaction -- -Mm-hm.
go towards.
You hear what Elaine wants from you, right?
She wants to spend time with you.
[laughs]
-Yes? -Yes.
You're laughing because...?
I feel like...
I will do that, right?
And I'll do that for...
six days out of the week.
-Mm-hm. -That seventh day --
Mm-hm.
if she wants me to do something
and I don't wanna do it
-or I can't do it -- -Mm-hm.
It's all for naught
-and it's just like, "You --" -Okay, then we have --
then we have to deal with that
and I will help the two of you deal with that.
I don't -- I don't feel like I want
to deal with that ...anymore.
Well, what's -- uh...
I'm here.
You can't -- that's not --
-[laughs] -No!
No, we're working. [laughs]
All right.
-No out. -Okay.
-Stay in. -[laughs]
[Orna] What are you thinking?
-I-- -How are you feeling?
I'm raging.
You're raging? You look sad.
Yeah, that too.
[Orna] So...
what are you sad about?
[sighs]
I'm just tired of...
-feeling like this. -Mm-hm.
And then to hear him say that...
he's punishing me...
like, WTF, right?
Like, what?
Oh, I put that word in his mouth.
But it's -- but...
I heard it even before you said it
because it's like what you said:
not rewarding is punishing.
[Orna] Right, but you're taking that to mean
-that he is punishing-- -Trying to hurt you --
But what else do you think it means?
I'm not trying to hurt you.
You're taking it to mean that you're being punished
for wanting Desean's company, right?
No, it's -- it's just -- it's --
I-- I just feel like...
I'm trying to force a situation
that he doesn't want.
He clearly said it.
What -- you're hearing something
-that I didn't hear. -That's what I heard.
But help me understand what you heard.
He doesn't wanna put the work into...
into that process, right?
Like -- like, spending the time
and going through those --
through that, for him, is too much effort.
-That's not what I heard. -That's what I heard.
No, what I heard is...
he wants to spend time with you,
he wants to make the effort.
He -- he is extremely averse
to conflict.
Do you understand that?
There's no conflict.
Right, but what --
you have a high tolerance for...
um...
conflict, energy, anger.
Desean doesn't.
From your point-of-view,
the more you feel like there's anger
or criticism coming your way,
-the more you retreat. -Yes.
and you're saying,
"If only...
my partner over there
would stop being angry...
-I could give more. -Yeah.
I would want to please more."
Yes.
Elaine is saying...
"I want more connection.
I want more simple togetherness,
doing things together."
The more you retreat,
the more abandoned,
alone, rejected...
Elaine feels...
the more rejected Elaine feels
the more she'll go after you.
Gives each of you a pretty clear idea
of what you need to do to change that dynamic.
Okay.
-Okay. -[sighs]
-We're done? -We're done.
-Thank you. -Okay.
♪bluesy rock music♪
[Sarah] Thank you.
-Bye. -Thank you.
All right, good night, guys.
Thank you so m--
Can I give you a hug?
Yes, you can.
Thank you.
-See you. -Bye.
G'bye.
♪...feelin' ♪
♪I got a bad feelin'♪
♪Mmm ♪
♪I got an itchy mind♪
♪Got thoughts that I can't scratch♪
♪I got a parasite♪
♪That I just cannot detach♪
♪And I've got a bad feelin'♪
♪And I don't feel right♪
♪No I don't feel right♪
♪'Cause I got a bad feelin'♪
♪About it♪
♪I got a bad feelin'♪
♪About it♪
♪And I can't stop holdin' on to it♪
♪And I can't stop holdin' on to this♪
♪Bad feelin'♪
♪And I don't feel right♪
♪I can't slow it down♪
♪And I can't catch my breath♪
♪And I feel paralyzed by things that ain't happen yet♪
♪'Cause I got a bad feelin'♪
♪And I don't feel right♪