♪softpiano♪
My mother was veryyoung when she had me
and her escapewas probably,
you know,getting high.
It was avolatile,
violentenvironment.
Having a babyis, like...
the only thing that Ihave known in my life
that I want.
I'm notgonna...
bring a child into fix something.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
I view...
sex a lotof ways.
I- I see it like, uh...
like, eating andlike sleeping.
I have to doit every day.
You don'twanna be...
okay with notdoing it.
That is not asign of health.
That's sign ofsomething...
-else.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Mau] And I wantto fix that.
[Annie] I get home,it's like 9:30
something latelike that.
Mm-hm.
I- I shouldn'thave to tell you
to do this thing...
[Orna]Thing like...?
Cook.
Like, I shouldn't say,"Are you cooking?"
[Orna]Mm-hm.
And then if I saythat, he'll say,
"Do I have a choice?"
But- and this is--
it goes backto me saying,
"He d- hedoesn't care."
He does not-
if it does not havea direct affect on him,
he does not care.
I'm just curious w-
when exactly didall of this happen?
During the week.
It- it- what dayduring the week-
I don't remember.
...did I not cook?
I- because I'vebeen cooking.
This brings us right tothe end of last session-
Mm-hm.
...where you'resaying,
"You see?He doesn't care."
-[Elaine] Mm-hm.-And I said,
"I think he's angry."
Those are, like...
vastly different kindsof feelings.
♪funky bass anddrum beat♪
♪♪♪
[Desean] She'll text methroughout the day.
This is one of the thingswe still fight about
-all the time.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
I screenshotteda text exchange
-between us.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
She asked mea question
and if you lookat the time,
let's say it was,you know, 3:01.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
And then she'll-
she texts rightafter that, 3:02,
"Why aren't yoanswering me?"
t- one minute later.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
I'm just curious,
do you have any thoughtsthat are not, like,
within it but, like,thoughts about
this dynamic?
I will say that, um...
I hold onto...
a feeling.
Something he did mademe feel a certain way.
[Orna]What's the feeling
-that keeps coming?-Insecure. Insecure.
-Insecure.-[Orna] Insecure.
Absolutely, becauseif you don't pay m-
What you keepgoing back to
that I think isthe feeling is
-"he doesn't care."-[Elaine] He doesn't!
Well...
[Elaine]I'm sorry.
Let's not equate thefeeling with truth.
The feeling that youkeep going back to
ultimately is"he doesn't care."
Correct.
Right? So that kind ofcolors everything.
Yep.
[Orna] He's busy equals"he doesn't care."
He doesn't go to the gymequals "he doesn't care."
Right? There- there's-
there's a deep-seeded"he doesn't care."
Now, I wannahear more.
We just toucheda little bit...
on your history.
But for sure, whatyou've described
is a lot of...
"no one cared."
Right? And a lotof loneliness
and a lot of doing iton your own.
[sighs]
-Mm-hm.-[Orna] Right?
Oh, and you're- you'retaking a deep breath.
I'm sorry, I'm goin'right in there.
[breaths in and out]
What's the matter?
Whoo.[exhales]
[exhales heavily]
-Interesting.-Mm-hm.
[Elaine]Very interesting.
[sniffs]
Ah, do I haveraccoon eyes?
No.
-No?-No.
[softly]Okay.
I think...
from a very early age...
that was pretty much
-the narrative.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Elaine] I left mygrandmother's house
when I was 15
and I was free,I was free.
Um...
-but--[Orna] Free, but alone.
Free, but alone.
Um...
and then...
you know, as a-as a young kid,
you don't know whatyou're doin', right?
So you're gonna go backto what feels safe.
And so I kept goin' backto my grandmother...
and um...
you know, you-you don't think people...
will do things...
until you see it.
Like, I feel like-
Are you thinking ofsomething in particular
when you're saying that?
My grandmother and my-my father's people
didn't like my mother...
and...
the cops were lookin'for my mother.
I knew wheremy mother was.
I had come in andthey were in the back,
my grandmotherand my aunt.
And they were plotting becausethe detectives were coming,
looking for my motherat my grandmother's house
And...
they- they weregonna say that I...
told where mymother was
and the cops tookmy mother.
My mother went to jailthinking that I told on her.
And- and I heardthem say that.
Like, why wouldyou do that?
Why would youdo that?
That was a majordouble betrayal.
Yeah.
But, you know,
shame on mebecause I gave
the benefit ofthe doubt and...
I shoulda known better.
Um, I think-
-Can I- can I--[Elaine] Mm-hm.
...just pausefor a second?
How are you feelinglistening to this?
That is... [sighs]
messed up, man.
That's- that'sa world of hurt.
That...
-A world of hurt.-[Desean] Yeah.
-Yeah, a world of hurt.-[Desean] Yeah.
[Orna] But to- to bring itspecifically into this dynamic
that the two of youare here with...
the shadow ofthat kind of-
you can find it sketchedinto your relationship.
Right? Because you go towards-
with Desean...
you go towards what comesup for you repeatedly,
what pops up likea hologram...
is this feelingof aloneness,
of nobody cares.
Mm.
That's interesting.
It's frustratingfor me, though.
[Orna] Because you'redealing with history.
-Yeah.-[Orna] You're not only dealing
-with here and now.-Yeah.
I mean this kind of lonelinessthat you're describing,
I mean, you can'tmake it all better.
♪slow emotionalmusic♪
ren] So 10 months before we met,
-I started hormones.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
And then I had, uh, my topand bottom surgery...
scheduled, um...
yeah, and onthe books.
And we talked aboutthat early on...
in our relationship,like, within
-the first couple weeks.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
And Sarah was just like,
"I'm going with you."Like...
It was the night I toldyou I love you.
-Yeah.-And I was like,
"I love you," and also,"I'm going with you."
-[laughs]-Yeah.
And that's was like...
three or four weeksafter we met.
Yeah.
And it's an- an incrediblybig commitment.
Mm-hm.
I was just, like, fullyin love with this person,
and was just like,
"I'm not gonna let yougo by yourself."
I was gonna go withmy mom, but you were-
Oh, yeah.
But you wanted to go,and I wanted you to be there.
Well, and it's suchan intimate thing.
Yeah.
Like, nobody needstheir mom
involved withtheir genitalia, right?
-[laughs]-No. [laughs]
I was...
so stressed outand so scared.
Of?
Here's this womanthat I've been dating
for six months
and she's going intosurgery to, like,
completely alterher anatomy.
-Yeah.-Am I gonna, like,
-adjust to--[Orna] Mm-hm.
Like, you have oneset of genitalia
and you're not- n-
now you have a newset of genitalia, like-
-[Orna] Right.-What does that mean?
Are you gonna still loveher in the same way,
be attracted inthe same way?
-[Sarah] Yeah.-What's gonna happen
-between the two of you?-[Sarah] Yeah.
I bet you were nervousabout that too.
-Very much.-[Orna] Yeah.
-And I--Yeah, I had...
no idea what itwould be like.
[Orna]Yeah.
[Sarah] I was kinda thrustinto the role of caretaker.
That is a really easyrole for me to put on.
It's what I- how Ioperated in my family.
Mm-hm.
And I'm worriedabout...
that and how it willtranslate into, like,
us having a baby.
Wh- where are you onthe baby question?
We're tryingnext month.
You're tryingnext month?
-[Sarah] Mm-hm.-[Lauren] Yeah.
Oh!
-[Lauren] Yeah.-[Sarah] Yeah.
-Wow.-[Sarah] Yeah.
So we're, like,actively monitoring
my ovulationright now
-for this cycle.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-So--So, okay.
Bring me upto speed.
Because the lasttime we talked
you were not sureabout the timing.
-[Sarah] Mm-hm.-[Lauren] Yeah, mm-hm.
You were sayingthat...
it's sort of-
it feels fast.
[Lauren]Mm-hm.
I just- I think I cameto the realization that-
that there is noperfect time.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
Suddenly,I started...
like, seeing...
-our child--[Orna] Mm-hm.
Our future child...
like, start tooccupy space.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
And that, like, wasover for me.
-Like--[Orna] Yeah.
[laughs]
[Lauren] I- I-I saved some sperm.
Mm-hm.
So we canactually have
biological children,potentially,
which is...
like, mind-blowing.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
Is there somesense of, like...
speed or urgency orwanting it now?
Or...
Once both of us areon the same page...
-[Orna] Mm-hm.-Yeah.
we- we get alittle, like...
-Antsy.-Antsy.
Because there's a- there'sa speed at which you move.
[Lauren]Mm-hm.
You know, y- w-in three weeks,
you're alreadymoving in,
you're already,you know...
-in- in Arizona--Yeah.
[Orna] doingsurgery together.
It's, like, youmove fast.
-Yeah.-Mm-hm.
[Orna]Right?
And one couldthink-
I mean sometimespeople move so fast...
so they neverhave to think.
-[Sarah] Mm-hm.-[Lauren] Mm-hm.
This is the one thingI am so sure of.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
That I want in my life...
that I don't- I don'treally have any, like,
-doubts about it.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Unless there is somethingglaring that I don't see.
I don't know.
♪eeriemusic♪
[Lauren][inaudible]
♪♪♪
[inaudible][laughs]
It's like a- a...
[laughs] Please don't.[laughs]
It's like a Hawaiian.
[laughs]
Ah, no Babe.
[sighs]All right.
No.[laughs]
-Oh.-[laughs] Of course.
Of course.
Why does that notsurprise me?
[laughs]
Is that whatyou want?
[laughter]
You know, inthinking about
the time we spenttogether so far,
I have to sayI'm still...
not clear
on what wouldbe something
you really wannawork on.
I think that...
that makes total sense
because we're noton the same page.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
-So I know what I want.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
What was that?
It's about thatcommunication piece,
that even though...
you're...
super, super supportiveand the world's best husband,
sometimes you'realso dismissive,
and...
where that leaves me whenyou're being dismissive.
What do you want?
I want you to be happy.
No, what do wantout of therapy?
Babe, um...
you have...
such richesof opportunity...
and you use them...
to criticize theenvironment
that provided thoseriches for you.
It- like yourstatement that...
"Even though you'reamazing,
sometimes you'redismissive."
How is that a problem?
Like, is the goal to...
never be dismissive...
like, zero percent?
You know, Anniehas been...
threatening in oneway or another
-to leave for a while.-[Orna] Mm-hm.
It's unlikely thatI'm going to
really dramaticallychange.
So you know, you justhave to, like, make...
a decision.
But you'resaying that...
the problem residesin Annie.
If Annie just wasokay with that,
you'd be good.
Well, y- sh- yes.
I think, yes,sort of, yeah.
That's- that's-
I have to saythat's unusual.
Mm-hm.
If you had to...
tell...
the story of whyyou're feeling...
dismissed,why is that?
I mean of course it'sdifficult for everyone, but...
your story.
Like, what- whatis it for you?
Well I...
I- eh- in- in a waythat hopefully
Mau will care about.
I've-
I mean- I've hadmy share of...
sexual trauma.
Can you say more?
I grew up inNew York City.
I grew up...you know,commuting.
I grew up...
relatively independent,
much more independent,probably,
than kids are allowedto be now.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
And I felt veryphysically...
vulnerable.
And I was remindedof that...
physical vulnerability,and...
um...
sexual physicalvulnerability...
all the time...
from fourth grade...
on.
What happened infourth grade?
I was...
touched inappropriately,uh...
multiple times.
I mean we were-
uh, god I feel likeand my girl-
we were flashed...
all the time.
-Just like constant--[Annie] Constant.
...sexual intimidation.
-[Annie] Constant.-Mm-hm.
And then...
in high school, therewas definitely,
um...
multiple incidencesof coercion.
And then I wasdate-raped.
Yeah, like rightbefore we met.
So like...
you know, it's notthe most extreme,
but it was constant.
[Orna] Constantand awful.
Can I- I'm just wannacheck with you Mau.
How do you feel aboutwhat Annie's described
in terms of her...
history of, like,sexual intimidation
and...
I wasn't there toprotect you.
I guess this is kindaone line of reasoning
why you would carrya particular sensitivity
to being...
dismissed or...
stepped over or disregarded.
And you're feeling-
your immediate responsewas, "I feel protective."
[Mau]Mm-hm.
[Orna] How do wego from that...
to...
when Annie experienceseven, like,
something similarto that with you,
you lose empathy.
Hm.
To begin with...
the- she's never hadan experience
with me...
that's similar tothose experiences.
-Obviously.-[Mau] Right.
There- there...
That's not true.
-[Orna] Oh?-[Mau] It is both true
and untrue.
That's-
okay well youshould say.
He...
in a beautiful way...
wanted me to have
a sexual confidence thathe thought I deserved.
And...
sometimes thatlooked in a way...
that I felt like...
was just perpetuatingthis, like, objectification
and vul- vulnerability.
Because he didn't want mejust to wear, like,
postage stamp-sizeskirts at home,
he wanted me to wear postages- stamp-size skirts...
to the grocery store,or out-
-Farmers' market.-for dinner.
The farmers'market, right.
[Orna]Mm-hm.
And my grandmother'shouse. I mean...
But are you sayingthat you felt
a certain kindof pressure?
Yes!
-A ton of pressure.-A ton of pressure.
Throughout ourmarriage that I have-
[Orna] That wassupposedly-
-Supposed...-[Orna] on your behalf?
Supposedly andsupposed to be
on my behalf.
na] But actually your experienceof it was that it's...
Was the opposite.
[Orna] Okay. Di- so...
So that's beeninsulting.
It's all internal is...
[Orna] "It" meaning- ?
Meaning it'sall on me.
That's- Baby- [laughs]that's not what I mean.
I mean you're describingyour feelings.
What ever .
[Mau] Sugar, I'm notdisagreeing with you.
-[Annie] I have a picture!-Uh-huh.
-You- you--Wait, I didn't hear.
-[Annie] I have a picture!-Uh-huh.
Are you disagreeing?
-Yes.-[Mau] Of course not [laughs]
-He's not disagreeing.-[Annie] He's- Yes, he is.
He's saying that it'sall in my head.
That's not whatI'm saying.
[Orna] I-I'm not sure-
That's not whatI'm saying, Love.
-[Orna] I'm not sure.-Okay.
What are you saying?
I'm saying there- there'snothing- eh- right-
I'm listening to youdescribe something.
That's what I'm doing.
I mean it's internal in-in the sense that
the well spring of informationis coming out of you.
It's- there's not anexternal basis for me...
to have an opinion.
I'm just listening to youdescribe your experience,
that's it.
Okay.
If we...
got way off the topicof how he feels
when I feel upset...
I think that thisactually brings us
-right back there.-[Orna] Right back.
-Because if we're talking about--[Orna] Listen.
-how you make me feel--[Mau] Mm.
and you go, "That's inyour head," or-
-Sugar, that...-[Annie] "No, you can't feel
that way because I'msuch a good husband."
You know, I think- I-I would like to start from
a place where we give Mau
a little bit more of thebenefit of the doubt.
[Annie]Okay.
[Orna] I- I- I'm not sureI heard it that way,
and I'd like to believe...
I mean I've seen youreact empathically.
Mm-hm.
And I'd like to believethat you've got that in you.
-So--Yeah,
I'm not gonna helpyou with that.
I- I don't need to earnanything there.
Right?I have it.
If you can't see it,like, fuck you.
-[Orna] But--And- and I give you-
you're not beingmagnanimous.
-Like, there--I'm not being magnanimous.
I'm trying to staytrue to the truth.
Describe anythingyou want,
but don't ascribemotivations to me.
that- that's justunfair to me.
Okay. I won't.
Okay, I don't thinkit's in your head.
You didn't makeit up, Babe.
You're telling- you're tellinga story about something...
-I'm listening to you.-Okay.
That I can say a word...
and you cantake that word
and imagine that I- I'vebrewed some evil concoction,
like, fuck you,like, stop.
That's the problem.
And you're right thisdoes exemplify it,
but not in the wayyou imagine,
in the way thatI imagine.
You keep tellingthe narrative as if
I can't meet youwhere you're at.
You're not meetingme where I'm at.
All the time recognizingthe distance between us
is the distance thatI'm not moving.
You're not- you're-
it's the distancebetween us.
If you wanna closethat distance,
start fucking walkingtoward me.
Stop telling me...
you're over thereand I need to just...
like, get it
because you've hadbad experiences.
Okay, me too.
So...
I'm happy topatiently sit here
and listen toeverything.
-And I'm empathic--What- what made you-
I'm empathic...
all the fucking time.
That's not a problem.
You don't have a problem of lackof empathy in your husband.
That's not whatyou have.
You have-
you feel...
like you're not gettingsomething.
You're getting it...
and you feel likeyou're not getting it.
But I can onlygive you it. Right?
If you don't accept it,
th- it isn'tsomething else.
There's notsomething else.
There's not a magicingredient missing.
The grass is notgreener.
There-I can't-don'twant tap dancing.
And I bent myselfinto a pretzel
to try to figure outwhatever it is
that you need,
and then be called allsorts of fuckin' names
in the therapist's office
because I protected you.
That's it.
Okay?
-[Annie] Yes.-All right.
I just wannacheck your-
your...
[sighs]
What angeredyou the most is
the misread of you
that Annie hadright now?
It doesn't angerme the most;
it's just the mostdisappointing.
Like, uh, really?
Still?
And if you feel that way,
Babe, I love you,
you should leave.
You should notlive your life...
in this level ofconsternation.
And if I'm the cause of it,you shouldn't be near me.
If there's somethingthere, uh...
you know, as horribleas it will be for me,
I r- you can'tlive your life...
this disabled.
♪emotionalmusic♪
[Orna] They told me alreadythat they have not lasted
more than three sessions
-with any couples therapist.-[Virginia] Yeah.
[Orna] I can't do all ofthe work that I could do
because there's always,like, the threat of them
jumping ship.
I have to maintain aconnection with him
on his terms.
I mean otherwise,I lose them as a couple.
Sometimes it feels like...
in a way I have tosacrifice Annie...
to stay...
tuned in in a veryparticular way
to his way of speaking,
because he's so...
so sensitive to any-
any diversion from theway he sees the world,
he experiences it assuch a-
-an assault.-[Virginia] Right.
I'm not sure if I'm,like, indulging him.
Could I confront more,
could he tolerate it,or would that...
blow up the treatment?
Very tight rope I'mwalking on there.
[Virginia] Yeah.
♪funky soulmusic♪
♪...From herebaby♪
♪Gonna get a little rougherbefore it smooths♪
♪But if you justhold on♪
♪To me,baby...♪
[Lauren]Do what?
[Sarah][inaudible]
♪♪♪
♪Just give mea little faith♪
♪Ain't much to aska drop of hope♪
♪Ain't got muchgoin' my way♪
♪But I'll makeit someday♪
♪As we travelalong♪
♪Baby♪
♪We might stumblewe might fall♪
♪But throughit all♪
♪Mylady♪
♪We have our love tokeep us standin' tall♪
♪I know you'renervous♪
♪I knowyou're shy♪
♪But we'll be togetherwalkin' side-by-side♪
♪Take myhand, baby♪
♪Give us half a chance andwe'll keep our love alive♪
♪Just give mea little faith♪
♪Ain't much to aska drop of hope♪
♪Ain't got muchgoin' my way♪
♪But I'll makeit someday♪
♪♪♪